Formula 1 Heineken Silver Las Vegas Grand Prix 2023Formula 1

[GroupB]

Note to Liberty post-Vegas:

A very mediocre Miami event now looks even moreso and should be dropped.

 

[TumeK5]

Note to Liberty post-Vegas:

A very mediocre Miami event now looks even moreso and should be dropped.

Even the track is worse for racing than Las Vegas.

But yes, Miami seems so meh compared to this.

 

[McLaren]

100%. And for all we know, they could have. We don’t get the FIA transmissions anymore, given how long it took for the penalty to be given, and judging by what GP had said on the radio about not giving it back, it wouldn’t shock me if RB had been given the order to give the place back and they ignored it knowing they’d get a pointless 5s penalty by doing so.

Yeah, it definitely seemed that way with GP basically saying, “We know where we stand but we’ll let you make the call to give it back or not.”

 

[DG_Silva]

I think he intended to push Leclerc a bit wide to the edge of the track, but not over (as loads of drivers have done loads of times at the start). He underestimated how slippery the corner was and understeered way further out than he intended.... He is, however, still responsible for keeping his car under control, and therefore deserved the penalty for forcing Leclerc off track.
I don't think a higher penalty was justified. For years forcing another driver off track has been a 5 second penalty, why suddenly change it now, just because it's Verstappen?

If you consider it as something to take a critical look at for the future, e.g. by a change of regulations, I think that would be a good thing to do.

I think you're doing Max more of a credit then he deserves - there have been numerous instances where he has pushed a driver clean off the circuit deliberately so hard that he is unable to prevent himself from going off the circuit.

That, combined with his nonchalant attitude towards the penalty showing zero remorse, and the fact he deliberately ruined Ocon's qualifying lap without punishment, means that people have had enough of transgressions going relatively unpunished, and the 5 second penalty is the prime target for it.

At Brazil, the target was Russell, but at least he acknowledged the penalty and that it was at a benefit to take the penalty - he was playing the game and said as much. He also said after the race, in his role as Head of GPDA, that the punishments need to be garage to prevent such abuse of the rules. This time around, Max didn't give a ****, to the point where he was amazed that they had the temerity to give the almighty Verstappen a penalty.

You're right, according to historic penalties, a 5 second penalty is the normal punishment but that doesn't mean it's the only punishment available to the stewards, and if you look at previous years (Hamilton's first year, for instance) harsher and harsher penalties were aimed to deter repeat offences.

 

[ScottPuss20]

Note to Liberty post-Vegas:

A very mediocre Miami event now looks even moreso and should be dropped.

Yes, it's time to throw it in the kitty litter. Sorry I meant bin.

 

[GroupB]

https://www.si.com/nfl/2023/11/20/m...-max-verstappen-audible-vikings-fans-loved-it

 

[PaMu1337]

I think you're doing Max more of a credit then he deserves - there have been numerous instances where he has pushed a driver clean off the circuit deliberately so hard that he is unable to prevent himself from going off the circuit.

That, combined with his nonchalant attitude towards the penalty showing zero remorse, and the fact he deliberately ruined Ocon's qualifying lap without punishment, means that people have had enough of transgressions going relatively unpunished, and the 5 second penalty is the prime target for it.

At Brazil, the target was Russell, but at least he acknowledged the penalty and that it was at a benefit to take the penalty - he was playing the game and said as much. He also said after the race, in his role as Head of GPDA, that the punishments need to be garage to prevent such abuse of the rules. This time around, Max didn't give a ****, to the point where he was amazed that they had the temerity to give the almighty Verstappen a penalty.

You're right, according to historic penalties, a 5 second penalty is the normal punishment but that doesn't mean it's the only punishment available to the stewards, and if you look at previous years (Hamilton's first year, for instance) harsher and harsher penalties were aimed to deter repeat offences.

I agree that he has 'some' history with this. This specific case looked a bit different to me though. Like I said, I think he was trying to do a dirty move, it just turned out a bit dirtier than intended. It was nothing like e.g. the incident at Brazil with Hamilton a few years back, which was just blatant intentional driving someone off the track. Multiple drivers complained after the race about the complete lack of grip in turn 1. We saw a crash at the start because Alonso completely lost it there (did he even get penalized at all? He caused bigger consequences, yet nobody is arguing against him). There were drivers struggling there the entire race. It's fully feasible that Max understeered further out than he intended (which it looked like to me from his steering movements on the onboard)

Max was nonchalant about it because of his dominance. He knows he can take it. That doesn't mean he intended to do this (at least to this extent).

There are no rules (as far as I'm aware) that justify giving higher penalties due to previous incidents. You could argue that this rule should be made, but as long as it isn't there you can't say he should be punished more for it. There is a system now for repeat offenses: the penalty points system (which has proven highly ineffective, but that's a different story)

Regarding the incident in qualifying with Ocon, if you go a few pages back you'll find me saying Verstappen deserved a grid drop for that

 

[McLaren]

I agree that he has 'some' history with this. This specific case looked a bit different to me though. Like I said, I think he was trying to do a dirty move, it just turned out a bit dirtier than intended. It was nothing like e.g. the incident at Brazil with Hamilton a few years back, which was just blatant intentional driving someone off the track. Multiple drivers complained after the race about the complete lack of grip in turn 1. We saw a crash at the start because Alonso completely lost it there (did he even get penalized at all? He caused bigger consequences, yet nobody is arguing against him). There were drivers struggling there the entire race. It's fully feasible that Max understeered further out than he intended (which it looked like to me from his steering movements on the onboard)

Max was nonchalant about it because of his dominance. He knows he can take it. That doesn't mean he intended to do this (at least to this extent).

There are no rules (as far as I'm aware) that justify giving higher penalties due to previous incidents. You could argue that this rule should be made, but as long as it isn't there you can't say he should be punished more for it. There is a system now for repeat offenses: the penalty points system (which has proven highly ineffective, but that's a different story)

Regarding the incident in qualifying with Ocon, if you go a few pages back you'll find me saying Verstappen deserved a grid drop for that

Alonso spinning the rear end around & dropping down the grid vs. a driver with a history with pushing others to track limits to gain position?

Max had no problem jumping right back onto the track in front of Russell after they went wide. Alonso (& Carlos who also spun the exact same way) meanwhile, suffered his own form of penalization by losing several spots.