Formula 1 Honda Japanese Grand Prix 2022Formula 1

[NotThePrez]

Seidl not too hopeful of the race getting a proper restart...

 

[Jimlaad43]

Wait, everyone getting mad about the tractor?

The race had been under Safety Car for two laps. The drivers all know where the car was off. The car needed to be moved, as the plan is always to get the cars racing again. Why are drivers going flat out under Safety Car and Red Flag past where they know a crash is? It's ridiculous that drivers complain about Safety Cars going slow - it's there for  SAFETY. It's in the bloody name.
Sainz's car required a tractor to lift it. Bianchi crashed when they recovered it under double yellows, this was a Safety Car going to Red Flag. It sounds to me like Gasly was driving too fast through an area he KNEW was likely to have a tractor in it.

Gasly deserves a penalty for putting his and marshals lives at risk. Race Control did NOTHING wrong.

 

[Rossell2]

I think if the FIA don't step up and own it there's going to be a very public divorce and rightly so I'd think.

When I saw the weather yesterday and that there was a good chance of rain I did have a horror flashback, I watched the 2014 race and aftermath live. Was expecting to see some lessons learned but turns out that's not the case.

 

[GroupB]

How did Ted get his job?

 

[IcySlivers]

Damn, was excited to watch this as it airs here at 10, 1140 now and well… it’s still raining

 

[Liquid]

Race Control did NOTHING wrong.

Independent of how fast Gasly was going, should they not have deployed the tractor after Gasly had passed the accident zone? Unless that's not strictly a race control decision.

 

[Touring Mars]

Gasly and AT do need to explain why he was going so fast - tractor or not, Sainz's car was still there anyway, so Gasly's speed under double yellow/red conditions does need to be explained.

But there's still serious questions as to how a recovery vehicle - which was barely visible - ended up being in the path of an F1 car in those conditions. Communications must be improved as well

That said, I reckon Gasly and AT will get a very serious penalty, and rightly so.

 

[McLaren]

This footage from Sainz's car does make Gasly's speed through there look worse, admittedly.

 

[MagpieRacer]

Wait, everyone getting mad about the tractor?

The race had been under Safety Car for two laps. The drivers all know where the car was off. The car needed to be moved, as the plan is always to get the cars racing again. Why are drivers going flat out under Safety Car and Red Flag past where they know a crash is? It's ridiculous that drivers complain about Safety Cars going slow - it's there for  SAFETY. It's in the bloody name.
Sainz's car required a tractor to lift it. Bianchi crashed when they recovered it under double yellows, this was a Safety Car going to Red Flag. It sounds to me like Gasly was driving too fast through an area he KNEW was likely to have a tractor in it.

Gasly deserves a penalty for putting his and marshals lives at risk. Race Control did NOTHING wrong.

Get in the bin. Tractors shouldn't be sharing a track with F1 cars. If they need to do it, Red flag it and wait for them to ALL be off the track. He didn't know there was likely to be a tractor there because in those conditions at any speed, its dangerous and irresponsible, especially given where we are.

 

[Jimlaad43]

Get in the bin. Tractors shouldn't be sharing a track with F1 cars. If they need to do it, Red flag it and wait for them to ALL be off the track. He didn't know there was likely to be a tractor there because in those conditions at any speed, its dangerous and irresponsible, especially given where we are.

Wow, welcome to the worst hot take of all time.

 

[ZoomingZoomer]

Wait, everyone getting mad about the tractor?

The race had been under Safety Car for two laps. The drivers all know where the car was off. The car needed to be moved, as the plan is always to get the cars racing again. Why are drivers going flat out under Safety Car and Red Flag past where they know a crash is? It's ridiculous that drivers complain about Safety Cars going slow - it's there for  SAFETY. It's in the bloody name.
Sainz's car required a tractor to lift it. Bianchi crashed when they recovered it under double yellows, this was a Safety Car going to Red Flag. It sounds to me like Gasly was driving too fast through an area he KNEW was likely to have a tractor in it.

Gasly deserves a penalty for putting his and marshals lives at risk. Race Control did NOTHING wrong.

Gasly was trying to catch up with the safety car, and as far as I know, they’re allowed to drive quickly (with care so as to not cause a crash and thus merit a lengthening of the safety car period) and catch up as quickly as possible. Race control should’ve known they still had Gasly about to pass the crash scene, and thus should’ve waited with bringing out a tractor. You can put as much blame on Gasly as you want, but race control played a significant role in this incident.

 

[Jimlaad43]

That doesn't excuse his going fast in the section he absolutely knows there is a recovery going on. Go fast before and after it, but not past the car.


A lot of these rules and issues come up because the drivers can't be trusted to obey yellow flags and safety cars. Safety Cars and Virtual Safety Cars being seen as strategic opportunities completely undermines the point of them. Monza's race end reaction to no Red Flag is the perfect example of fans wanting Entertainment rather than realising this is a life or death situation for the people wanting to be covered by it.

 

[NotThePrez]

Wait, everyone getting mad about the tractor?

The race had been under Safety Car for two laps. The drivers all know where the car was off. The car needed to be moved, as the plan is always to get the cars racing again. Why are drivers going flat out under Safety Car and Red Flag past where they know a crash is? It's ridiculous that drivers complain about Safety Cars going slow - it's there for  SAFETY. It's in the bloody name.
Sainz's car required a tractor to lift it. Bianchi crashed when they recovered it under double yellows, this was a Safety Car going to Red Flag. It sounds to me like Gasly was driving too fast through an area he KNEW was likely to have a tractor in it.

Gasly deserves a penalty for putting his and marshals lives at risk. Race Control did NOTHING wrong.

I think the issue more than anything else is that the tractor was present in a situation where the visibility and grip was absolutely horrendous with cars still on the track (do note that the tractor was also sitting on the racing line). It effectivley doesn't matter if Gasly was moving at 200 kph or 20 kph, it was still a massively dangerous situation given the conditions.

If the rules call for Gasly to be penalized, then so be it, but having a recovery vehicle out on the track with cars still running with incredibly poor visibility shows that the FIA didn't learn anything from Bianchi's death. IMO the recovery vehicle shouldn't have been deployed until everyone was back in the pits, or at least well clear of the accident scene further up the track.

 

[MagpieRacer]

Wow, welcome to the worst hot take of all time.

Worse than yours? That would be impressive.

It's indefensible, there's no reason in those conditions for that to have happened. Reminder, he's being investigated for speeding under red flag conditions which commenced about a second before he passed the tractor, he was driving to yellow flag conditions to a fixed safety car delta prior to that, the FIA and clerk of the course are solely to blame for putting them in that situation.

 

[Grayfox]

The scenes if Gasly gets a penalty.

It became red just before he approached the incident zone.
But he was going too fast under double yellow.

 

[MagpieRacer]

It became red just before he approached the incident zone.
But he was going too fast under double yellow.

He's been called for speeding under red flag, not double yellow. He will have been driving to the permitted safety car delta which updates per mini-sector. This implies he went too quickly after passing this incident.

The tractor simply shouldn't have been there, the course officials and FIA have screwed up, in those conditions its indefensible.

 

[Jimlaad43]

Worse than yours? That would be impressive.

It's indefensible, there's no reason in those conditions for that to have happened. Reminder, he's being investigated for speeding under red flag conditions which commenced about a second before he passed the tractor, he was driving to yellow flag conditions to a fixed safety car delta prior to that, the FIA and clerk of the course are solely to blame for putting them in that situation.

Yes absolutely let's red flag the race as soon as a car stops on track. What kind of nanny state do you want to run?

As someone who has been a marshal for 12 years and has done 10 Grands Prix, this practice of sending a tractor or JCB out is a very common and the best situation. The issue here is drivers not respecting the flags or conditions, not crying about being scared of tractors.

 

[Grayfox]

I think the issue more than anything else is that the tractor was present in a situation where the visibility and grip was absolutely horrendous with cars still on the track (do note that the tractor was also sitting on the racing line). It effectivley doesn't matter if Gasly was moving at 200 kph or 20 kph, it was still a massively dangerous situation given the conditions.

If the rules call for Gasly to be penalized, then so be it, but having a recovery vehicle out on the track with cars still running with incredibly poor visibility shows that the FIA didn't learn anything from Bianchi's death. IMO the recovery vehicle shouldn't have been deployed until everyone was back in the pits, or at least well clear of the accident scene further up the track.

There will always be cars running, it does take time to get the recovery vehicle out and to the scene.
The race being red flagged may not have happened, look at monza.
Tractor out and no red flag.

Red flags for every crash would be annoying as hell.
Not to mention it would screwed the outcome of the monza GP as everyone would've gone with softs.

It was mentioned by by one of the announcers, employ WEC rules.
Slow zones

Heck even implement WEC rules for refueling
Refuel First, then change tires.
Reason for the refueling ban was everything was done at once and the drivers rushed.

 

[Grayfox]

He's been called for speeding under red flag, not double yellow. He will have been driving to the permitted safety car delta which updates per mini-sector. This implies he went too quickly after passing this incident.

The tractor simply shouldn't have been there, the course officials and FIA have screwed up, in those conditions its indefensible.

It was shown in the incident video.
He was going fast under yellow, then the light board infront of him became red.
Now is their a timeout for drivers to slow to the safe speed for red flags.

 

[MagpieRacer]

Yes absolutely let's red flag the race as soon as a car stops on track. What kind of nanny state do you want to run?

An actual (poorly lit at that) tractor on the circuit > car stopped on track.

Very different scenarios. Preventing driver fatalities isn't nanny state, it's a basic function of the sport. If a car is in a situation where it needs tractor or vehicular recovery, from the circuit, ESPECIALLY in these conditions, it should be done under red flag conditions, and ONLY when the cars have left the circuit.

 

[NotThePrez]

There will always be cars running, it does take time to get the recovery vehicle out and to the scene.

Yes, but I'm pretty sure the FIA/race control have access to technology that tracks the location of each car, and as such can tell the recovery teams "Ok, everyone's gone, you can now deploy the tractor."

In their efforts to quickly recover a stricken car, race control played a hand in making an already dangerous situation even more unsafe.

The race being red flagged may not have happened, look at monza.

Tractor out and no red flag.

Monza also didn't have damn-near zero visibility during the recovery process (although I did think that situation was still a little sketchy).

Red flags for every crash would be annoying as hell.

Not at all what I said.

It was mentioned by by one of the announcers, employ WEC rules.
Slow zones

Still a bit sketch in situations with poor visibility, like what we saw earlier.

 

[Jimlaad43]

An actual (poorly lit at that) tractor on the circuit > car stopped on track.

Very different scenarios. Preventing driver fatalities isn't nanny state, it's a basic function of the sport. If a car is in a situation where it needs tractor or vehicular recovery, from the circuit, ESPECIALLY in these conditions, it should be done under red flag conditions, and ONLY when the cars have left the circuit.

Which one of us actually has experience of lifting cars off the track during live racing?

I can tell you categorically that under a Safety Car, it's a perfectly acceptable and efficient way of doing it. Formula 1 is too trigger happy on Safety Cars and VSCs, not the other way around. It's all because the drivers don't slow down. If they had to do 60kph all the time under a Safety car, this would never have been an issue. But they don't. They drive fast to make up time. This is the issue. Bianchi crashed because he was asked to go faster and it ended badly. If Gasly wasnt driving like a lunatic in conditions that were bad past the area he picked up crash damage from and the team would have told him there was a crash - that's all on Pierre.

The tractor was on track for the entire field as it went to a pinch point where there isn't much barrier to track space. Where else is it supposed to go?

 

[NotThePrez]

So, we're going to get maybeee 45 minutes of racing.

 

[Nessy]

An actual (poorly lit at that) tractor on the circuit > car stopped on track.

Very different scenarios. Preventing driver fatalities isn't nanny state, it's a basic function of the sport. If a car is in a situation where it needs tractor or vehicular recovery, from the circuit, ESPECIALLY in these conditions, it should be done under red flag conditions, and ONLY when the cars have left the circuit.

The bottom line is he shouldn't have been going passed at that speed knowing there was a stationary car there, (with the potential of marshals being present). Poor communications though (like @Touring Mars pointed out), is something that does need to be looked at, in regards to the tractor being there so soon as well.

 

[NICKname]

Gasly deserves a serious penalty for going 250 km/h during red flag conditions. Regardless of whether that tractor was there or not. Just because the FIA may or may not have messed up, doesn't mean drivers can just do what they want and get away with it.

 

[MagpieRacer]

Which one of us actually has experience of lifting cars off the track during live racing?

I can tell you categorically that under a Safety Car, it's a perfectly acceptable and efficient way of doing it. Formula 1 is too trigger happy on Safety Cars and VSCs, not the other way around. It's all because the drivers don't slow down. If they had to do 60kph all the time under a Safety car, this would never have been an issue. But they don't. They drive fast to make up time. This is the issue. Bianchi crashed because he was asked to go faster and it ended badly. If Gasly wasnt driving like a lunatic in conditions that were bad past the area he picked up crash damage from and the team would have told him there was a crash - that's all on Pierre.

The tractor was on track for the entire field as it went to a pinch point where there isn't much barrier to track space. Where else is it supposed to go?

So with your experience you would look at that situation and think job well done? Near zero visibility, narrow circuit, yeah let's chuck a tractor into the circuit which isn't under red flag conditions and just blame drivers for driving to the set delta times.

While it may be perfectly acceptable to do so in certain situations, today wasn't that situation.

 

[MagpieRacer]

Gasly deserves a serious penalty for going 250 km/h during red flag conditions. Regardless of whether that tractor was there or not. Just because the FIA may or may not have messed up, doesn't mean drivers can just do what they want and get away with it.

He does deserve that if found guilty. But the red flag was thrown for him as he went past the tractor. Just remember that. If he sped, it was after that situation. Unless the FIA wanted him to slam the anchors on immediately and then he probably would have hit the tractor.

 

[PaMu1337]

Points will likely be as follows (assuming race ends between 25% and 50%):
13, 10, 8, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1

 

[Jezza819]

An actual (poorly lit at that) tractor on the circuit > car stopped on track.

Very different scenarios. Preventing driver fatalities isn't nanny state, it's a basic function of the sport. If a car is in a situation where it needs tractor or vehicular recovery, from the circuit, ESPECIALLY in these conditions, it should be done under red flag conditions, and ONLY when the cars have left the circuit.

Are you counting medical vehicles in that scenario? Because if there is an injury then medical vehicles can't wait for all cars to clear the track and then come out to aid a driver.

Yes there needs to be an explanation from either the FIA or the track as to when or if that tractor was given the ok to go out. However that does not excuse Gasly from driving entirely too fast under red flag conditions. To me as soon as a driver sees the red flag signal he should back completely out of the throttle and go at a very slow speed. No more of this trying to catch up to the pack stuff.

But I do agree with you that the tractors, etc. need to be more visible with LED lights etc.

 

[PaMu1337]

Track doesn't look bad. Hamilton also saying it's good