Formula 1 Pirelli British Grand Prix 2021Formula 1

[Jimlaad43]

I like how people discussing about this overtake just looking on footage. Every person who had decent experience in racing sims know that Copse isn't for two cars at all! Diving there for a position is for Italians only (scuzi, ragazzi, this is true).


Well, what is 'intentional'? Did he move on Max's rear right? No. Did Lewis his best to prevent contact in the most tricky and fast corner? Don't think so.

Wait, you're playing the "it's scary to overtake there in Simracing" card. What a weak argument. Simracing is consequenceless crashing and people pass everywhere in simracing. My favourite passing place at Monaco was always the second Swimming Pool chicane but nobody ever passes there in real life. They're two completely different things.

Have you ever watched an F1 race around this circuit? Drivers pass there all the time. Before every session, they literally singled Copse out as an "Action Zone" and showed an overtake done into that corner in the early 1990s, thus proving its worth as a passing opportunity. Have you ever watched a race in any other series at Silverstone? Oh right, Copse is also still one of the best overtaking spots on the circuit. It's a corner at the end of a long straight preceded by a section of corners which you can take any number of lines through.


Every argument put forward exonerating Max from any type of blame always seems to be missing something blatant, running on flawed logic or just out there to hate on Lewis. Arguments exonerating Lewis of any blame are just people not looking at the screens and seeing him miss the apex. If you take everything into account, it is a clear as day racing incident where both are to blame. Lewis's desperation to pass was matched by Max's inability to accept giving the place up. Lewis missed the apex, Max didn't give enough space for Lewis to get through without understeer. The crash was big, but that's irrelevant to the contact. All that matters in the eyes of the stewards is the final effect - ie #33 DNF and #44 continued only losing one position.

Nothing about the crash was deliberate by either driver.
Nothing about the crash was one single driver making a howling error.
It was just circumstances of the two best drivers on the grid racing wheel-to-wheel for 11 races finally getting it wrong, with one driver having an horrific accident and the other being lucky enough to still win the race. They've been excellent at keeping close but not touching, so this was a case of the inevitable finally happening. Why is this so difficult to understand?

 

[Groundfish]

There's not really a corner on any track that isn't an overtaking opportunity if you judge it right. Copse has seen many many overtakes in F1.

I never said otherwise. Sticking a wheel up the inside very late and carrying too much speed to avoid under steering into your opponent is different from making a clean overtake.
I know it wasn’t on purpose. I know maybe Max deserved to be raced hard, BUT, even if he did deserve a come uppance it shouldn’t be on a turn that dangerous.
Look at Senna taking Prost out at Suzuka-benign result-no 51 g impact.
Imo this attempt from Ham was equivalent to sticking a wheel in at 130r…
My opinion is that on high speed turns you don’t push into what you would call the ‘grey area’ of overtaking validity and etiquette.
That was certainly never Hams corner. At best it was going to be side by side, but that didn’t happen because Lewis understeered out wide.
I don’t understand you guys spinning it that Max scythed in front-it’s a right hand turn whats he supposed to do? He had to turn.
It should have been side to side but a very bad mistake was made by Lewis.
In any case I’m glad Max wasn’t badly hurt and hope to see more hard racing in F1.

cheers

edit I just feel that it’s very hard to recognize the dangers involved for us (many of us at least) as sim racers.
I mean the danger isn’t only to Max-had the crash turned out differently you could have had both Max and Lewis cars tumbling with debris thrown into and injuring the spectators-even killing them-thats why etiquette and unwritten rules do apply.
Sure every corners an opportunity, that doesn’t make it ok to go full send when getting it wrong has dire consequences.

 

[-Fred-]

Imo this attempt from Ham was equivalent to sticking a wheel in at 130r…

You mean like this?

 

[Samus]

Don't recall if anyone posted this quote here or not yet, so I thought I'd do so. This is Horner on Spanish GP L1 T1.

“Turn 1 was mega. I mean Max, that was full Max Verstappen – he was just going for it – and he positioned the car fantastically well,” said Horner after the Spanish GP. “He tucked in, he got a little bit of a tow and a bit of momentum. And yeah he just braked later and ran the car wide. Thankfully Lewis had got out of it because otherwise he would have ended up in the fence,” he added.

As a reminder, HAM was a fraction ahead on the outside in that situation...

 

[DG_Silva]

@CLowndes888 You cannot take the consequences of an incident into account when punishing the incident for two simple reasons - dishonesty and whataboutism.

With the latter, let's say for instance that Russell forces Sainz off the road and Sainz loses 2 places - the stewards decide that this is an incident worthy of a 10 second penalty. In another incident, Ricciardo forces Leclerc off the road in exactly the same way on exactly the same corner, only this time because there are more people in a group fighting for position, Leclerc loses 4 positions. According to you, Ricciardo deserves a bigger penalty because the effects are worse, meaning he gets a 15/20 second penalty or a drive-through. However, since the incident was the same, McLaren appeal because Russell's penalty was less for the same actions, and Ferrari complain because George should have received a more severe penalty similar to Daniel. Where do you draw the line? Eventually you'll end up 25 seconds for defending your position.

With the former, F1 is littered with examples of dishonesty such as Michael Schumacher's numerous collisions to Crashgate, so let's run a hypothetical - Perez is told by Red Bull to be involved in a light collision on the outside of Hamilton, say in Hungary. As Perez is pushed onto the grass, he 'hits a bump' and experiences a sudden burst of acceleration which pitches him into a barrier. As Perez's race has now ended, Hamilton receives a penalty enough to effectively end his race or the next race.

Both of these could happen should the consequence be taken into consideration of the incident.

 

[Famine]

Sticking a wheel up the inside very late

This version of events is still nonsense. He was all-but level when the cars turned in, having drawn up alongside at the 150m board:

He's certainly as far alongside as Verstappen was when he refused to yield, and understeered, through Brooklands:

Leclerc's position is correct, Verstappen has gone too tight and understeered right across the track, Hamilton is simply not able to turn because there's a car there. They didn't crash there only because Hamilton didn't act like Verstappen.

Verstappen is just driving his line and he doesn't care who else might be there.

 

[Groundfish]

You mean like this?

He went round the outside. Sticking a wheel in happens on the inside, late, in a grey area.

e's certainly as far alongside as Verstappen was when he refused to yield, and understeered, through Brooklands:

I’m only saying he DID get there, but only just, just at a point of turn in, and only by carrying too much speed to hold his trajectory along the inside.
He barely got there, at the last possible instant-he had every right to contest the corner imo but the corner wasn’t his-it was going to be side by side-that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.
The FIA was correct it was Hamilton at fault imo.

 

[andrea]

This version of events is still nonsense. He was all-but level when the cars turned in, having drawn up alongside at the 150m board:

View attachment 1068717

View attachment 1068718

View attachment 1068719

He's certainly as far alongside as Verstappen was when he refused to yield, and understeered, through Brooklands:

View attachment 1068721

View attachment 1068723

View attachment 1068724

Leclerc's position is correct, Verstappen has gone too tight and understeered right across the track, Hamilton is simply not able to turn because there's a car there. They didn't crash there only because Hamilton didn't act like Verstappen.

Verstappen is just driving his line and he doesn't care who else might be there.

Have you read this?

 

[Famine]

Have you read this?

I literally quoted it in the previous post...

 

[Samus]

but the corner wasn’t his

There is no such as thing as "owning" a corner in the F1 rules.

 

[andrea]

I literally quoted it in the previous post...

Okay, just curious and all.

 

[Groundfish]

There is no such as thing as "owning" a corner in the F1 rules.

No, but there are unwritten rules between all racers-one of which is you don’t stick a wheel in on a 180 mph fast turn.
This issue comes up a lot in racing online, more than real imo.
Online guys will make a late move get the car alongside for a couple frames then blame their opponent for turning in-lol like Hamilton did-
Jensen Button was one who was in afraid to tell the truth.
He knew it was a huge judgement error from Hamilton.
It’s one thing to make a move in a big braking zone at lower speeds it’s quite another to do it on a high speed turn.

Anyways it’s quite clear Hamilton broke the rules anyways because he was penalized.
You CANT come in that late, there, and the fact it led to a destroyed car and a driver hospitalized is precisely WHY!

 

[kungtotte_]

No, but there are unwritten rules between all racers-one of which is you don’t stick a wheel in on a 180 mph fast turn.

What about the several times it happened afterwards in the same race? Or almost any time Formula 1 races at this track? How can an unwritten rule exist that you don't do a thing but literally everyone does it given half a chance? That's not much of a rule is it?

Anyways it’s quite clear Hamilton broke the rules anyways because he was penalized.

This is called "argument from authority" and is a logical fallacy. The fact that he was penalized doesn't validate your argument.

You CANT come in that late, there, and the fact it led to a destroyed car and a driver hospitalized is precisely WHY!

Max Verstappen was not hospitalized. Max Verstappen walked out of the wreck under his own power and due to FIA/F1 safety protocols he was sent to a hospital for proper screening and tests to make sure nothing was wrong, and nothing was wrong.

Romain Grosjean was hospitalized after his crash. There's a very important distinction there.

 

[GingerBredMan]

No, but there are unwritten rules between all racers-one of which is you don’t stick a wheel in on a 180 mph fast turn.

Christian Horner 2021: Every knows you don't put a wheel up the inside in Copse.
Christian Horner 2014: Good job, Seb

Unwritten rules serve no purpose other than antagonize someone. Make it a written rule so drivers know what they can and can't do.

Edit: also, if it's an unwritten rule, how do you know it exists?

 

[Groundfish]

How can an unwritten rule exist that you don't do a thing but literally everyone does it given half a chance? That's not much of a rule is it?

No they do not.
Overtaking does not equal ‘sticking a wheel in’
Well maybe in GTS it does haha.
Sticking a wheel in is a very different action from making a proper overtake.
What happened at Silverstone was bound to happen at some point I guess; I just have no idea why so many folks are giving Lewis a free pass here and no criticism.
Guys like Button and Mansell are calling it like it is imo.
Funny also to me as an aside just how arrogantly many look down on NASCAR but look even at the top of F1-racing is racing and there’s a point where things reach a crescendo…
F1 is no different than NASCAR it’s just that in F1 generally there’s little close racing.
Clearly when there is things happen-just like NASCAR.

 

[kungtotte_]

No they do not.
Overtaking does not equal ‘sticking a wheel in’

They were 100% alongside going into the corner, similar to all of the other situations I mentioned. If you get to invent a different reality when you're making these arguments then there's really not much of a point for you to come here to argue is there? You will always invent a way where you're correct and everyone else is wrong so why don't you save us all the bother and sit in your room imagining that you "got us" on the forums?

What happened at Silverstone was bound to happen at some point I guess;

Here we are in full agreement actually. I said it during the first GP of this season that it would be inevitable that they crash as the championship was on the line and neither of them was willing to back out of a corner.

I just have no idea why so many folks are giving Lewis a free pass here and no criticism.

I see it as a 50/50 race incident. Two guys going too hot into the corner, neither one backing out, both making mistakes, one suffering the worse for it. The reason it seems like giving Lewis a free pass is because of the vitriol heaped his way and people saying he was solely in the wrong and how it was his responsibility to back out when it is just as much Verstappen's.

Guys like Button and Mansell are calling it like it is imo.

Because they agree with your point of view. Guys like LeClerc call it a race incident, so you know...

 

[McLaren]

Jensen Button was one who was in afraid to tell the truth.

Why is that? Because it backs up your view?

So, we disregard Alonso, Ricciardo, & LeClerc (who had a front row seat from start) who think this incident isn't so cut-and-dry as to who deserves blame?

 

[Groundfish]

They were 100% alongside going into the corner, similar to all of the other situations I mentioned. If you get to invent a different reality when you're making these arguments then there's really not much of a point for you to come here to argue is there? You will always invent a way where you're correct and everyone else is wrong so why don't you save us all the bother and sit in your room imagining that you "got us" on the forums

I will tell you that I can’t be bothered by your personal attack and I can’t help it that you have no idea what Horner means when he says ‘sticking a wheel in’
All I’ve done is present my opinion. :🤷:

 

[Famine]

I’m only saying he DID get there, but only just, just at a point of turn in, and only by carrying too much speed to hold his trajectory along the inside.

Nope. The "sticking a wheel in" came more than 100 metres before the turn-in, and he was within two feet of completely alongside at the point of turn in. I showed you the images - and Verstappen did the exact same thing at Brooklands literally two corners before... and at Imola, and at Spain. Why were they not "sticking a wheel in"?

The single difference is that this time it wasn't Verstappen on the outside, and this time the driver on the outside didn't back out to avoid a contact, but headed for the apex... twice.

As for "carrying too much speed", that's a given - it very much looks like he understeered, which is pretty much the top and bottom of too much speed for a given curve - but it isn't quite the gotcha here. The car was at its heaviest (almost) and on tyres at their coldest (almost), so much more on a knife-edge, but the real issue was the narrowed line - forced by Verstappen holding the centre of the track - combined with the attempt to widen the line only a few metres earlier. It looks like he's jinked left to widen the line and then immediately turned right into Copse, loading up the front left beyond adhesion, causing the understeer.

Edit: Well, lookee here. Something on Hamilton's car hit the deck at the exact moment he changed from left to right steering. Looks pretty central, so it could be the floor:

That'll muck up your downforce and cause understeer all day long.

Meanwhile Verstappen has, with a car almost completely alongside him hub to hub, headed right for the apex in a scare move, then opened the steering, then headed right for the apex again, totally unaware that he hasn't scared the driver alongside into backing off. Hamilton has simply not avoided him - and that phrase from the stewards is quite telling.


What Horner means when he says "sticking a wheel in" is "this time my driver wasn't the one on the inside doing the insane divebombs and forcing other people out of the way, so it's bad". Parroting his hypocrisy while looking at the pictures that show nothing of the sort is... not constructive.

So long as Horner, and Marko, are stroking Verstappen's ego by pretending he has zero culpability (he does not, even by the stewards' decision) and hasn't been flinging it up the inside all season long, nothing will change. He got lucky this time; let's hope he doesn't need to get lucky again.

Okay, just curious and all.

Good, as I'm not sure this thread can cope with another absolutely steaming turd of a hot-take from you that you'll later walk back with "/s".

I actually said Hamilton didn't avoid the collision before the stewards did, though I was guessing at the time.

 

[McLaren]

 

[StPeterMartyr]

Look at Senna taking Prost out at Suzuka-benign result-no 51 g impact.

No 51 g impact but they were on 5th gear and in F1 cars with the safety standards of 30 years ago, very very dangerous for both: "I promised to myself I would go for it in the first corner, regardless of the result" (pity he said that in 1991).
An unpopular opinion maybe, but he should have been stripped of the title, if not worse.

Senna saying that (at 1:40, video audio is very low)

 

[Famine]

Well, he's wrong on point four

However, it seems that points one to three are close to universal, Horner/Marko and the racists notwithstanding.

 

[noshog]

Well, he's wrong on point four

I haven't read through all of this thread, so don't know what the general GTP consensus is ? ... But for me I quite enjoyed the new format, made for some meaningful action on all 3 days. Could maybe do with a couple tweaks here and there to maybe mix up the tyre strategies a bit more or something like that ? I wouldn't complain to see more events with that format.

 

[Liquid]

I can't believe there is so much discussion for such a non-incident. It's not a patch on Spain 2016, Spain 1997 or Japan 1989.

 

[OJBrit]

I don’t understand you guys spinning it that Max scythed in front-it’s a right hand turn whats he supposed to do? He had to turn.

Correct he had to turn. There are degrees to it. He decided to turn hard towards the apex with a car alongside. If he took a more open line he would have made the corner fine and probably with more momentum on Hamilton and would have got to Maggots first. His steering angle was too much for the situation and put him in danger.

No, but there are unwritten rules

If it is unwritten then it is not a rule in the first place.

I just have no idea why so many folks are giving Lewis a free pass here and no criticism.

I'm not giving Lewis a free pass. I don't see it as 0/100 but somewhere in the middle. More 60/40 for me I guess. But when people are saying it is 0/100 then that needs challenging as it is a poor assessment of events.

 

[Groundfish]

@OJBrit
I got you.
I just look at photos of Hamilton overtaking Leclerc and he holds super tightly to the inside.
It’s my opinion it’s his duty to hold this line. You can see how far away from the inside he was against Max…
Consider…

'Red Bull have crash data that will allow them to blame Hamilton'

The crash involving Max Verstappen and Lewis Hamilton last weekend has, as expected, caused a lot of trouble. For example, the battle between Mercedes and Red Bull, which was already spicy off-track, has become a bit more extreme and Hamilton and Verstappen have also had some arguments amongst...

www.google.com

 

[HopAlong]

If they had both been closer to the normal racing line then the move would have been on. Overtaking that tight on the inside at Copse, whether its BTCC, GT's or an LMP doing some lapping, there is nearly always contact.

I think the Stewards got it right, Verstappen was well within his right to take the line he did, so was Hamilton but he couldn't quite manage it and that was that. I wouldn't say its a racing incident since blame can be apportioned, it's more of a typical case of open wheel/single seater drivers aren't actually that great at close wheel to wheel battling.

 

[McLaren]

@OJBrit
I got you.
I just look at photos of Hamilton overtaking Leclerc and he holds super tightly to the inside.
It’s my opinion it’s his duty to hold this line. You can see how far away from the inside he was against Max…
Consider…

'Red Bull have crash data that will allow them to blame Hamilton'

The crash involving Max Verstappen and Lewis Hamilton last weekend has, as expected, caused a lot of trouble. For example, the battle between Mercedes and Red Bull, which was already spicy off-track, has become a bit more extreme and Hamilton and Verstappen have also had some arguments amongst...

www.google.com

"I have been told by Red Bull that there is data that they can use to prove that Hamilton went into Copse Corner significantly faster than at any other time and that he could not have made the corner without going wide and inevitably tapping Verstappen in the end."

"It is likely that this data will come out," Brundle continued, "And if Red Bull think they have 'new evidence', then they can appeal to the FIA because they think Hamilton is more at fault than first thought and the punishment for the Briton was handled too leniently."

And this is at all, any different to Toto claiming he had data proving Lewis did nothing wrong? Remember, it's sitting in Michael's inbox.

 

[OutlawQuadrnt]

So after thinking about it for quite a bit, I have an opinion.

The Saturday race-that-really-wasn't-a-race event was what I thought it would be. You get to experience the excitement of the first lap twice in one weekend followed by the dullness that follows. The circumstances of this weekend certainly helped it but I can't see the same thing happening at somewhere like Monaco. One could argue that it is still better than a practice session and entering parc ferme conditions earlier can mix things up even more if certain teams nail or screw up the setup. Having to dance around with the semantics is really silly, however. I am still willing to give this a chance but my instinct tells me there are better ways to improve the overall weekend.

 

[SchnellShmel]

Wait, you're playing the "it's scary to overtake there in Simracing" card. What a weak argument. Simracing is consequenceless crashing and people pass everywhere in simracing. My favourite passing place at Monaco was always the second Swimming Pool chicane but nobody ever passes there in real life. They're two completely different things.

Have you ever watched an F1 race around this circuit? Drivers pass there all the time. Before every session, they literally singled Copse out as an "Action Zone" and showed an overtake done into that corner in the early 1990s, thus proving its worth as a passing opportunity. Have you ever watched a race in any other series at Silverstone? Oh right, Copse is also still one of the best overtaking spots on the circuit. It's a corner at the end of a long straight preceded by a section of corners which you can take any number of lines through.


Every argument put forward exonerating Max from any type of blame always seems to be missing something blatant, running on flawed logic or just out there to hate on Lewis. Arguments exonerating Lewis of any blame are just people not looking at the screens and seeing him miss the apex. If you take everything into account, it is a clear as day racing incident where both are to blame. Lewis's desperation to pass was matched by Max's inability to accept giving the place up. Lewis missed the apex, Max didn't give enough space for Lewis to get through without understeer. The crash was big, but that's irrelevant to the contact. All that matters in the eyes of the stewards is the final effect - ie #33 DNF and #44 continued only losing one position.

Nothing about the crash was deliberate by either driver.
Nothing about the crash was one single driver making a howling error.
It was just circumstances of the two best drivers on the grid racing wheel-to-wheel for 11 races finally getting it wrong, with one driver having an horrific accident and the other being lucky enough to still win the race. They've been excellent at keeping close but not touching, so this was a case of the inevitable finally happening. Why is this so difficult to understand?

It's hard to understand that Lewis Hamilton almost killed a young man and didn't even apologised for it.