Forza 4 Autovista mode could be standard / premium?

[II-zOoLoGy-II]

Still waiting for his sources for all his false claims.

Don't wait too long. I understand where he is coming from... But there are multiple locations in Autovista. So, that means each feature of each car will have to have multiple movies pre-rendered and saved accordingly... I don't think so.

Its the same level of detail between the commentated interactive shorts and free movement interaction. Will everyone's cut scenes be identical? Of course. But It appears to be just programmed camera movements.

If it is pre-rendered CGI... that is the fastest loading time for a cutscene I have ever seen on a current gen console; especially at that level of detail...

I also find it amusing we keep throwing around the term CGI...Of course everything is CGI... It's a video game... But what he is implying is that Autovista is nothing but a pre-recorded movie.

 

[Spagetti69]

I have resisted a lot of the You tube spoilers but what I have seen looks great.

Don't know how they do it but you can rotate, zoom in and see incredible detail.

The speech, history and stats on the cars add icing to a very nice cake.

Kaz loves cars, we all love cars.
I bet out of all the features, this is what Kazanouri would go ape over.

I'm impressed no matter what methods they choose.
I would have thought being able to change the paint would rule out any movies.

I have noticed a slight pause whilst entering the car. 458 I think from memory.

I would buy the game without this gloss TBH.
Having it is a true bonus.

Not sure on the various backgrounds. I've not seen that confirmed anywhere.

If not, well the garage will do nicely.
Top gear studio would make a nice scene if lit up a bit.

 

[Akira AC]

Don't wait too long. I understand where he is coming from... But there are multiple locations in Autovista. So, that means each feature of each car will have to have multiple movies pre-rendered and saved accordingly... I don't think so.

Its the same level of detail between the commentated interactive shorts and free movement interaction. Will everyone's cut scenes be identical? Of course. But It appears to be just programmed camera movements.

If it is pre-rendered CGI... that is the fastest loading time for a cutscene I have ever seen on a current gen console; especially at that level of detail...

I also find it amusing we keep throwing around the term CGI...Of course everything is CGI... It's a video game... But what he is implying is that Autovista is nothing but a pre-recorded movie.

Not all of it, its part real-time, part CGI. CGI for the cutscenes and real time for the free vista mode.

And actually the movies can be pre-loaded when the Autovista mode starts, the background for each CGI clip can be changes on the background of each CGI scene during production(check some RPGs and games with alternative endings scenes to get the idea), if Autovista features more than one scenario(which seems to be the case).

And again, I'm not affirming that Autovista is CGI, I'm just explaining why it could be CGI, according to what I can see from those videos.

 

[McLaren]

You're changing your claim now. Before, you sounded rather sure it was CGI. Then, you backed off claiming it was a "hypothesis". Now, you're saying it's part-CGI, part-real time.

Pretty confident in saying that you're no longer sure where you stand on whether or not it is/isn't CGI....

 

[Akira AC]

You're changing your claim now. Before, you sounded rather sure it was CGI. Then, you backed off claiming it was a "hypothesis". Now, you're saying it's part-CGI, part-real time.

Pretty confident in saying that you're no longer sure where you stand on whether or not it is/isn't CGI....

I'm sure is CGI, the fact that I think is CGI doesn't mean that is indeed CGI, If I say I'm sure then people will be stubbornly oppose to my assurance instead of actually see the reasoning behind it and then arguing with the reasoning.

Waving exposition is what is called, backing up with reasoning is what is called, if my English is correct, and now that I think about it, this doesn't add too much to the conversation, right?

 

[McLaren]

I'm sure is CGI, the fact that I think is CGI doesn't mean that is indeed CGI, If I say I'm sure then people will be stubbornly oppose to my assurance instead of actually see the reasoning behind it and then arguing with the reasoning.

Then why did you present it as a fact earlier as you have done multiple other claims in the past? You can't really deny that your post didn't come off as such if this many people responded, asking you to back up your claim.

And people don't believe them when I tell them that it is CGI.

Which is now why I said in my last post that you seem to be changing your argument by believing it's 50/50 when you seemed to be very sure in the quote above that it was CGI. This same quote above is also coming off as you stating a fact, not what you think.

 

[Akira AC]

It was all pre-scaff observations, since now I have to point everything non factual as an opinion or theory.

 

[McLaren]

It was all pre-scaff observations, since now I have to point everything non factual as an opinion or theory.

You should have been doing that to begin with. It's your own fault your posts were coming off as you stating "facts".

 

[James1436]

Look here


Skip to 1:45 and watch. You can see the door and the hood was open before he got into the car. So when he used one of the points of interest, the hood and door are still open. Unless Turn10 pre rendered every type of situation in which the door hood or trunk were open, it is not prerendered.




Same with this clip.At 2:22, all the doors, the hood were open before he clicked the point of interest and they are still open.

Same with 2:58

 

[II-zOoLoGy-II]

Look here
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meQk-dpSSjs">YouTube Link</a>

Skip to 1:45 and watch. You can see the door and the hood was open before he got into the car. So when he used one of the points of interest, the hood and door are still open. Unless Turn10 pre rendered every type of situation in which the door hood or trunk were open, it is not prerendered.

Also Akira... notice when he starts the car, revs the engine, the tachometer needle bounces off the rev limiter. When the cut scene ends and goes back to normal view... the needle is still dropping.... Pretty fancy camera tricks.... (Approx. 1:35-1:45 same video)

 

[Akira AC]

I see it now, is highly unlikely that they render open lid scenes, but there is the black out and the flicker before the movie starts, and is there when I get my doubts, also the particular angles that cannot be access by the camera in live mode, and the light reflections.

 

[t.o.]

I see it now, is highly unlikely that they render open lid scenes, but there is the black out and the flicker before the movie starts, and is there when I get my doubts, also the particular angles that cannot be access by the camera in live mode, and the light reflections.

That seems like an artistic thing to me than anything else.

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

When Jeremy CLarkson starts talking that is pre rendered.
The way the camera switches to a cinematic view has to be pre rendered.

 

[Akira AC]

When Jeremy CLarkson starts talking that is pre rendered.
The way the camera switches to a cinematic view has to be pre rendered.

That's what I'm trying to figure out, also the textures.

I bring this out because to archive that kind of graphical fidelity in real time you need a really powerful computer capable of rendering such complex thing with that amount of textures and details without sacrificing speed or frame rate, the 360 has a very limited in RAM(512) however it uses AA to compensate, unlike the PS3 which uses a multi core processor architecture to process the graphical part of the game.

To actually reach that kind of fidelity it needs to have a lot of RAM space to storage the textures, reflections and geometries. It could have different levels of LOD in Autovista, but it doesn't seem to be the case because the lighting and the textures do not present flickers or anything like that.

And there is also a black out screen sec before the clips starts, a bit longer than the other black out screen moments to change the camera angles.

 

[James1436]

That's what I'm trying to figure out, also the textures.

I bring this out because to archive that kind of graphical fidelity in real time you need a really powerful computer capable of rendering such complex thing with that amount of textures and details without sacrificing speed or frame rate, the 360 has a very limited in RAM(512) however it uses AA to compensate, unlike the PS3 which uses a multi core processor architecture to process the graphical part of the game.

To actually reach that kind of fidelity it needs to have a lot of RAM space to storage the textures, reflections and geometries. It could have different levels of LOD in Autovista, but it doesn't seem to be the case because the lighting and the textures do not present flickers or anything like that.

And there is also a black out screen sec before the clips starts, a bit longer than the other black out screen moments to change the camera angles.

At 2:45 on the 458 clip, it instantly goes to Jeremy Clarkson clip without a black screen.

Turn10 have been making car games for awhile, every game they improve their coding.Turn10 have been working with the xbox exclusively for awhile so I think they know how to get the most out of their box.Turn10 have stated that with the new IBL system helps free up alot of space. Without physics or AI to worry about,Autovista also frees up power so that the xbox can focus on rendering the interiors and the car.

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

IBL dosent free up anything.
If IBL freed up space we would have night racing.

 

[t.o.]

IBL dosent free up anything.
If IBL freed up space we would have night racing.

Wow I can't believe you said that. Night racing, obviously, brings it's own set of challenges outside the scope of just IBL

 

[Akira AC]

At 2:45 on the 458 clip, it instantly goes to Jeremy Clarkson clip without a black screen.

Turn10 have been making car games for awhile, every game they improve their coding.Turn10 have been working with the xbox exclusively for awhile so I think they know how to get the most out of their box.Turn10 have stated that with the new IBL system helps free up alot of space. Without physics or AI to worry about,Autovista also frees up power so that the xbox can focus on rendering the interiors and the car.

I also know that, in fact, if you are running win 7 with the latest version of 3Dmax and using some special plugins, you can actually match that kind of quality, the problem is that it takes more that 3GB from the RAM alone(the software, not win 7, as a whole it takes 4.5GB checking it with the task manager), not to mention that it also need a powerful video card(512MB+ Ge Force 9000+).

I'm aware that T10 has worked with the 360 for 7 years by now, but getting more RAM is something completely different.

I don't see the black out at the beginning, but I see the back out at the end, a bit longer and then all the elements appear re-arranged, I also paying attention to DG about the render techniques to make it possible, but it doesn't fit, there is something about those reflections and textures that makes me doubt, also the black out moments which in part seem like loading times.

However the Clarkson talking scene starts with no delays, not even 0.1 of a sec, the only thing I can think of is pre loaded scene, but that does not explains some things.

Interesting thing this has become.

 

[Minty]

I also know that, in fact, if you are running win 7 with the latest version of 3Dmax and using some special plugins, you can actually match that kind of quality, the problem is that it takes more that 3GB from the RAM alone(the software, not win 7, as a whole it takes 4.5GB checking it with the task manager), not to mention that it also need a powerful video card(512MB+ Ge Force 9000+).

But they're not running on Win7 and they're certainly not using 3Dmax, so what's your point?

7 years of experience doesn't increase the ram, you're right about that, but it does mean they can learn how to more efficiently use it. Using their own graphics engine. And no one outside T10 knows just how good that really is.

If that one model really takes all you claim it does, then 16 slightly less detailed cars, on a very detailed track would be impossible even for the highest end PC.



And how do you figure the black out isn't for effect? If they were going for a soothing kind of environment to enjoy the car, smooth transitions would be the way to go. So that could explain that.

Wow I can't believe you said that. Night racing, obviously, brings it's own set of challenges outside the scope of just IBL

I second this.

When the cutscene showing close ups is activated, there are spreadsheets and stats all over the place, and that is really difficult to pull out that without implementing CGI techniques.

Except that it's not. Well, as far as I know anyway.

I'm fairly sure creating a floating bit of plain text with a few charts is a bit easier than rendering a car.

 

[II-zOoLoGy-II]

I am going to again point out my last post. Go to the linked Youtube video and watch from 1:35-1:45. The engine is started, revved, bouncing the tach needle off the rev limiter, then the cutscene ends... Immediately it cuts back into the normal interaction view sitting in the cockpit where you can visibly see the tach needle falling back to 0 after bouncing off the rev limiter. Obviously, it is not pre-rendered footage.

 

[OGL]

It would be quiet stupid and hard to record all possible variations like (the left door is open, hood open) then (the left door is open, hood is closed) and so on. That would be quiet a task for 26 vehicles and DVD isn't infinite. I see no problem having those poping stats screens that show characteristics of the car, it is just like saying that HUD in any game is prerendered. If it was prerendered it would be smarter to raytrace it to look better, also the geometry isn't perfect, you can still see that circles aren't perfectly round. And as well as that I see no problem at rendering 1 m polygons. Any game today has 2+ million polygons per scene average, Killzone 3 had 6+, so it is not a problem.

 

[t.o.]

Back in 1993 or so I had an Amiga 2000 that I hooked up with a nice graphics card and some memory etc. I used to do some rendering just as a hobby. Very small objects with different light sources and stuff. I wish I had stuck with that. In any case, I recall once you start adding those lights and lens the rendering time got longer. It's really no different now. Except what used to take me overnight to render probably gets done in 1 minute.

 

[Luminis]

I can't believe this discussion. Pre-rendering videos of that many cars in that many different cicrumstances, just to fool people? I mean, seriously? Also, switching between pre-rendered and real time graphics doesn't really make sense, either.
If T10 did that, you'd notice the change in the level of detail. And if you can't notice it, there's no point to not just go with the real-time graphics.

By the way, the engine is powerful enough to deliver beautiful images with 12 cars on a detailed track, while running the physics engine - why is it that hard to just accept that it can do the AutoVista stuff it isn't side tracked by all of that?

I mean, seriously, what the hell?

 

[Bogie 19th]

I doesn't matter what akiraacecombat says, lol. THE MAKERS of the game already said it's in game, real time game engine footage, not CGI.

He can have an opinion all he wants, but that doesn't change the fact that the people that MADE THE GAME have already proved him wrong.

 

[JJ72]

When people start comparing 3D MAX with in game engine it just shows they have no idea what they are on about.

a rendering engine uses very little short cuts, every beam is raytraced, rebounded, retraced for multiple passes, with AO and everything, that's why it takes hours to get a good image.

An in game engine uses a lot of short cuts and product an image with simple vertex shading with a lot of shaders to achieve a believable effect, the two are not comparible.

Before anyone say a part of Autovista is prerendered, please try to figure out the size of a HD uncompressed video with full dynamic range, that can look exactly the same as in game quality, then do your maths as how big a DVD disc is, multiplied with the length of the autovista experiences..........right, it doesn't fit. And it is a stupid way to do it. Not to mention it isn't just one single movie, it's a couple movie loaded simutainuously so you can stream from one section to another in an undetermined order.

Lets talk some sense come on.

 

[Hotspitta]

I doesn't matter what akiraacecombat says, lol. THE MAKERS of the game already said it's in game, real time game engine footage, not CGI.

He can have an opinion all he wants, but that doesn't change the fact that the people that MADE THE GAME have already proved him wrong.

Please guys let's not even give this guy the attention he wants. Dont react too his stupid and childish claims.

 

[GreatServant]

I do not have forza4, but from what I know there are 24 cars with autovista feature. and these cars looks pretty detail. but other cars seem to be much less good looking to me, (the in game footage looked way less details even with those "premium" cars). seems to me the standard/premium thing is going on in forza as well?

 

[Terronium-12]

I do not have forza4, but from what I know there are 24 cars with autovista feature. and these cars looks pretty detail. but other cars seem to be much less good looking to me, (the in game footage looked way less details even with those "premium" cars). seems to me the standard/premium thing is going on in forza as well?

25 vehicles are in Av.

And of those 25, sure, you could refer to them as "Premium" if it helps to differentiate between what Autovista is, and what the rest of the game is. The only real difference between in-game and Av is that the vehicles in Autovista are significantly more detailed that when you're racing with them, but whilst racing every game is as detailed as every other. Then again that should come as expected considering Av is essentially a one-car-only spectator mode allowing you get as up close and personal with the car as you possibly can.

The only problem with this is there are no "Standards" in Forza 4. I'm interested to find out what new cars are added throughout the games lifetime.

 

[FyreandIce]

When you're actually racing, there is no difference between an Autovista car and a normal one.

 

[Akira AC]

When you're actually racing, there is no difference between an Autovista car and a normal one.

Lie, there are cars in race that uses a different LOD, apart from that there are some cars that are not actually that detailed(1998's NSX), and there is no car that is as detail as Autovista cars in race.