Forza 4 vs GT5 physics (read the first post before contributing)

[Spagetti69]

Ha ha. That's a lethal curb. It's more impressive if you can hold it and straighten up ala James Bond.

 

[JDMKING13]

In GT5, I always have penalties disabled, and it's rarely an issue. The cheaters just get kicked next race. Same thing would apply to Forza. And if it's an option, then it doesn't really matter. Anyone who wants to use it could.


How did sims become popular in the first place then? GT and Forza are the biggest sellers, and they are near the top when it comes to consoles.

No doubt the biggest thing we need as racing gamers are options. FM4 is pretty good with options GT5 is OK I guess. This is why I wish they just had an option to turn off the magical force and for GT5 enable an option for roll overs. Options can make everyone happy!

^ But what about when your racing with your buddies and there saved by an invisible force, isn't the realism gone for you.

PS friend request sent.

Again I haven't rolled cars in either game only time I ever see roll over are when Scaff posted a few of his. Going off track is more in my gaming experience then rolling cars in both games. I want roll over don't get me wrong but in my respectful opinion you are just trying to come up with reason to deflate my argument. I am using everyday gaming experience I get with my friends and family to explain why I wish they have a option to turn off the magical force.

Reminds me of loosing a race on-line in FM4. Micra R replica I build (RWD 2.0 turbo) and I ran it before I hard sorted the suspension out, too stiff suspension + clipping a high curb = lost race.



Must have been quite a sight for the guys behind me.


Scaff

Edit: Ahhh I love that video man I just used your video in my post. I am ALL for these roll overs! I have never done this though.

 

[Spagetti69]

King you will never be deflated with regards to GT. it always seems as though if GT gets it wrong it's never bothered you. Forza gets it wrong and it's divorce proceedings.

Anyhow I'll move on.

As I own both titles I better stump up the fact that I've hardly played GT much at all lately. Updated and that's about it.

How are the off road physics in that title? I've not read much about it.

 

[cuco33]

I'm not trying to start anything here, but if you deal with FM4 sticky grass in every day gaming with friends, then that's not racing clean. For you to experience the sticky grass, you need to plow through the few corners that sticky grass is there, which is done intentionally to prevent cheating.

Am I the only one who thinks GT5's offroad physics are just OK? That they aren't something amazing? I've never thought the GT offroad modes were amazing at all. Maybe I'm not setting up my cars right... but I barely play anything offroad in GT

 

[JDMKING13]

King you will never be deflated with regards to GT. it always seems as though if GT gets it wrong it's never bothered you. Forza gets it wrong and it's divorce proceedings.

Anyhow I'll move on.

As I own both titles I better stump up the fact that I've hardly played GT much at all lately. Updated and that's about it.

How are the off road physics in that title? I've not read much about it.

That's bull crap dude All the money I spent on both games are you serious? I buy all the DLC even bought a new Xbox just for FM4. I think you got it all wrong. Go in my post history and you will see when FM4 does things better than GT I say it with no problem so please dude don't go there. I love both games but they give me different fixes Yes I treat my GT5 and FM4 like drugs. With Rally I love it but I am no genius for off road so any information from me is pretty pointless. Edit lets keep it real when you come on the GT5 thread section majority of the time your taking stabs at GT5 and if any body says anything about FM4 you are surely to comment and make sure you even it up with GT5. Similar on what you did with me.

I'm not trying to start anything here, but if you deal with FM4 sticky grass in every day gaming with friends, then that's not racing clean. For you to experience the sticky grass, you need to plow through the few corners that sticky grass is there, which is done intentionally to prevent cheating.

Re read why I hate the sticky track trick. It has saved many people from bad crashed which impacts my league. They get to roll out of the race with a clean functional car when it should be trashed. FM4 damage is great in my opinion. I do have a problem with the tire wear but that's for another day. All I want is the sticky grass to have an option for on/off.

 

[sik180sx]

So when did sticky grass or corner cutting start having anything to do with the physics models in both games?

 

[Exorcet]

So when did sticky grass or corner cutting start having anything to do with the physics models in both games?

Before the Big Bang.

Going off track is part of the games, and when you're off track physics determines what happens, just like when you're on track physics determines what happens. and in Forza you can't turn off sticky grass, so the sticky grass physics are permanent.

 

[hennessey86]

Although the sticky grass is annoying, I would rather it be there than to have the cheating that is happening in GT academy 2012.

 

[Scaff]

Re read why I hate the sticky track trick. It has saved many people from bad crashed which impacts my league. They get to roll out of the race with a clean functional car when it should be trashed. FM4 damage is great in my opinion. I do have a problem with the tire wear but that's for another day. All I want is the sticky grass to have an option for on/off.

I must agree that while it is true the sticky grass can on occasion save someone from a crash, its not something I've come across as common and while they may come out of it with a fully functional car the degree of stickiness is enough to have pretty much ruin any chance of a good race position.

The chicane at Sedona is a good example of this, without the sticky grass it would be cut so often as to ruin the track, however no-one straightlines it as it effectively ruins your chances.

I personally would far prefer a proper flags and penalties system, however in this example the sticky grass does the job its designed for. Its far from perfect, but I would rather live with it than have the off track nonsense that is spoiling the GTA.

 

[JDMKING13]

I must agree that while it is true the sticky grass can on occasion save someone from a crash, its not something I've come across as common and while they may come out of it with a fully functional car the degree of stickiness is enough to have pretty much ruin any chance of a good race position.

The chicane at Sedona is a good example of this, without the sticky grass it would be cut so often as to ruin the track, however no-one straightlines it as it effectively ruins your chances.

I personally would far prefer a proper flags and penalties system, however in this example the sticky grass does the job its designed for. Its far from perfect, but I would rather live with it than have the off track nonsense that is spoiling the GTA.

Everything you said is spot on. I truly understand why they do this and agree with it, Just give us an option to turn it off for the people in leagues who have rules and I will be so happy. Maybe you guys are just getting my bickering because a rival In my league ride should be toast but he got saved buy the quick stop I wanted him to crash so bad.. Scaff I love your roll over video If I was behind you in that race I would of been crying laughing so hard. It was so unexpected!

 

[Parker]

The sticky grass in FM4 is not meant to be realistic, its a way of stopping people cutting corners, however at times its not well implemented.

However I would rather have something in place that this:

Which is classed as clean by the GTA 2012 and actually gives you a slight speed boost over driving on the track.

I agree 100% which is why I replied the way I did. The reply I was responding to stated the super sticky grass was "just like real life," which is completely inaccurate. I know they Turn10 did it to prevent cheating and corner cutting, and I'm fine with that (although it does annoy me when I make a legitimate mistake and am overly punished for it) but it's silly to act like it is anywhere close to realistic.


Honestly, to me the physics in both games are so close that it just comes down to a preference. Gran Turismo does some things better than Forza, and Forza does some things better than Gran Turismo. Overall I prefer the driving and racing in Gran Turismo, probably because I feel Polyphony Digital has handled wheel support much better than Turn10, but I still love and play the hell out of Forza too. 👍


Parker

 

[Scaff]

I agree 100% which is why I replied the way I did. The reply I was responding to stated the super sticky grass was "just like real life," which is completely inaccurate. I know they Turn10 did it to prevent cheating and corner cutting, and I'm fine with that (although it does annoy me when I make a legitimate mistake and am overly punished for it) but it's silly to act like it is anywhere close to realistic.

Quite agree, both titles have issues with how realistic they are as soon as you leave the track. T10 smacks you in the face as a penalty and GT5 can actually give you a speed boost.

Both need to get a better handle on this for the next releases in the series.

Honestly, to me the physics in both games are so close that it just comes down to a preference. Gran Turismo does some things better than Forza, and Forza does some things better than Gran Turismo. Overall I prefer the driving and racing in Gran Turismo, probably because I feel Polyphony Digital has handled wheel support much better than Turn10, but I still love and play the hell out of Forza too. 👍


Parker

Swap GT5 and FM4 around and you have my position on things (and the 4 in FM4 is the important bit), however for me its the tyre and suspension modelling in FM4 that wins the day.

Still play both, but its FM4 that is my go to option.

 

[amar212]

Gran Turismo does some things better than Forza, and Forza does some things better than Gran Turismo.
Parker

You have to understand how unbiased and objective opinions like this are seriously undermining the very foundations on which this topic is built upon.

If I were you, I would keep these kind of rationalistic behavior to myself while in the same time presenting some random nonsense without any backup as universal fact in order to keep the discussion and crazyness alive.

And yes, it seems you have played both games with the wheel. You should be aware how such instantly makes you *elitist* and *egoistic*. Pair that with common sense displayed above... man, it just can't end well.

 

[Spagetti69]

Last we need is Amar in here. Lol.

Right back to playing Forza with Kinnect for me. The real man's way.

 

[speedracergirl]

We have them both. Most of you have broke it down as far as physics. GT5 I like a bit better, but dial in the wheel for Forza, and it makes for some great playing too. I love them both.

The car/truck selection is a nice refresher on Forza as well, with many different models that GT5 does not have, including 36 Porsche's in 7 days! Yahoo!

 

[Saidur_Ali]

The sticky grass in FM4 is not meant to be realistic, its a way of stopping people cutting corners, however at times its not well implemented.

However I would rather have something in place that this:

Which is classed as clean by the GTA 2012 and actually gives you a slight speed boost over driving on the track.

The grass does slow you down slightly driving the Leaf on it. However the racing line makes you faster. PD defines valid as one wheel has to be on track edge and this was the same rule in 2011 EU GT Academy.

Forgot to update you on my experience of FM4, sorry about that. Played the game without update first as needed to update Dashboard, seemed similar to demo regarding physics. Then I updated dashboard, turned Xbox off and thought I would go to play updated game later but when I tried got E74 error. Will need to get new 360 before playing again but that can wait as got GT Academy to keep occupied so might be a while before I get a new one.

Although the sticky grass is annoying, I would rather it be there than to have the cheating that is happening in GT academy 2012.

There is no cheating so far. PD only class all four wheels off the track edge they define as cheating and that usually involves corner cutting like in the 2011 NA GT Academy Round 2. PD could solve the issue of people using grass by making it less forgiving and making you slow down more than the time gained from improving the racing line. No need for sticky grass, just need grass that slows car down to the level between FM4 grass when it is not sticky and GT5s grass.

 

[Exorcet]

The grass does slow you down slightly driving the Leaf on it.

The grass has a lower friction coefficient than the track in GT, and if all four wheels are on the grass, and you're not slow enough to spin your wheels, the grass will allow you to speed up. I think that's what he's referring to.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

The sticky grass in FM4 is not meant to be realistic, its a way of stopping people cutting corners, however at times its not well implemented.



However I would rather have something in place that this:

Which is classed as clean by the GTA 2012 and actually gives you a slight speed boost over driving on the track.

I see someone loaded up the same ghost as me.

 

[Scaff]

The grass has a lower friction coefficient than the track in GT, and if all four wheels are on the grass, and you're not slow enough to spin your wheels, the grass will allow you to speed up. I think that's what he's referring to.

That's exactly what I am referring to, along with the numerous participants in the GTA that have said they find it speeds the car up slightly.

Now putting aside the rules of the GTA (which for a competition that is championed by many as proof that GT5 is 'better' seems to have a strange idea of actual racing regulations) the slight issue of physics does rear its head with the above shot.

The leaf has an open diff, which means that drive will go to the wheel with the least resistance, in this case the one on the grass, the end result of which should not be perfect drive from both wheels, which is what happens if you do the above.

 

[amar212]

Last we need is Amar in here. Lol.

Right back to playing Forza with Kinnect for me. The real man's way.

 

[thelvynau]

Ok this thread has gone weird.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

The grass has a lower friction coefficient than the track in GT, and if all four wheels are on the grass, and you're not slow enough to spin your wheels, the grass will allow you to speed up. I think that's what he's referring to.

From my experience it slows you down slightly.

That's exactly what I am referring to, along with the numerous participants in the GTA that have said they find it speeds the car up slightly.

Now putting aside the rules of the GTA (which for a competition that is championed by many as proof that GT5 is 'better' seems to have a strange idea of actual racing regulations) the slight issue of physics does rear its head with the above shot.

The leaf has an open diff, which means that drive will go to the wheel with the least resistance, in this case the one on the grass, the end result of which should not be perfect drive from both wheels, which is what happens if you do the above.

Have you tried it? It slows you down from experience. Only reason to go on it is ideal racing line to shorten distance to finishing line and minimise lateral load on tyres and take advantage of any elevation differences in drivers favour. In 1-1 for example you don't see people going on the grass all the way round or at end because the grass slows you down. You only see people going on grass on select parts mainly for reasons stated above.

The GTP OLR approves of the image you chose as far as I know. The main difference is though that GT5 or GTA2012 allows you to have 3 wheels outside track edge, if it was 2 then it would be just like what real life racing regulations are and most of the time when you got at least one wheel on track, you normally have two or only one for a very short period of time.

Good job you don't get perfect drive isn't it?

 

[JohnyPiston]

Wow ...reading this from the first post and my impression, from what has been written, is that FM4 is superior ...which is not the impression I had when I first came in here. It seems that I am finally going to buy the XBOX 360 and FM4 thanks to the "GT5 Questions and Answers" thread!

 

[Spagetti69]

Wow ...reading this from the first post and my impression, from what has been written, is that FM4 is superior ...which is not the impression I had when I first came in here. It seems that I am finally going to buy the XBOX 360 and FM4 thanks to the "GT5 Questions and Answers" thread!

I assume you will keep the PS3. Hopefully GT6 may come for this platform and you can have the best of both worlds.

Although I prefer Forza ATM it's not about brand loyalty with me. I love this gaming genre and as long as the software is good I will purchase.

I do hold GT in a lot of regard and still respect the franchise. After all Forza is an imitator of GT.
Really hope PD can find there former glory. That's the problem being at the top, the only way is down sometimes
.
They have a lot of ideas but it seems as though man management is all over the place.
A simple event creator and all things unlocked would pull me back for some more. It's a sandbox game after all and we should have all toys unlocked to play with.

Forza too needs an event creator also.

 

[Samus]

There is no cheating so far. PD only class all four wheels off the track edge they define as cheating and that usually involves corner cutting like in the 2011 NA GT Academy Round 2. PD could solve the issue of people using grass by making it less forgiving and making you slow down more than the time gained from improving the racing line. No need for sticky grass, just need grass that slows car down to the level between FM4 grass when it is not sticky and GT5s grass.

You must have missed this one:

 

[Scaff]

From my experience it slows you down slightly.

Have you tried it? It slows you down from experience. Only reason to go on it is ideal racing line to shorten distance to finishing line and minimise lateral load on tyres and take advantage of any elevation differences in drivers favour. In 1-1 for example you don't see people going on the grass all the way round or at end because the grass slows you down. You only see people going on grass on select parts mainly for reasons stated above.

Yes I have tried it and am not alone in finding that at times it doesn't slow you down.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=252147

The GTP OLR approves of the image you chose as far as I know. The main difference is though that GT5 or GTA2012 allows you to have 3 wheels outside track edge, if it was 2 then it would be just like what real life racing regulations are and most of the time when you got at least one wheel on track, you normally have two or only one for a very short period of time.

Good job you don't get perfect drive isn't it?

You seem to have not watched the full replays of the fastest laps then as I can assure you that they would not be classed as clean under GTP OLR regs. As for a car being that far off the track being allowable in real life regulations that is utter nonsense, I quote the FIA regulations from both F1, the WTCC, GT2, GT3, World Endurance, etc:

During practice, the warm-up and the races, drivers may only use the track and must at all times observe the provisions of the Code relating to driving behaviour on circuits.

Source - http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/62B9C15AB7B9819EC12579BB0041AC9F/$FILE/2012%20FIA%20WTCC%20Sporting%20Regulations%20V%208.03.pdf

The FIA define the track as being set by the track line boundary.

What is allowed in the GTA would get you black flagged at almost any real world racing event, hell off track excursions of that nature will get you kicked off circuit at a track day.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

This might be off topic, anyone interested in watching live stream Nissan GTR GT3 race at Nurburgring 24 Hours race, please visit the link

Kaz Yamauchi and Lucas Ordonez will be driving the new GTR GT3

The race weekend starts on May 15th with compulsory training while the race itself will start at 14.00GMT/UTC on May 19th

Currently they have free practice session - Enjoy guys, and please spread the word
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nissan-motorsports
or here
http://www.24h-rennen.de/LIVE.94.0.html

 

[Exorcet]

From my experience it slows you down slightly.

Just out of curiosity, what is your experience? The grass only seems to hurt you if you try to take a tight turn on it, or if you try to accelerate from low speed.

PD simply modeled it as tarmac with less grip, so all that happens when you go off is reduced traction/friction. This lowers cornering grip, but also lowers rolling resistance.

I've made use of the grass to help me win the Indy 500 faster when I was using the X1. It's also helpful on the Nurburgring back straight. Going in a straight line on grass consistently yields higher top speed as long as you're not gear limited.

PD's grass modeling does a good job for the most part when people are racing clean, but it's easy to exploit when people aren't.

 

[ka-mai]

They have a lot of ideas but it seems as though man management is all over the place.
A simple event creator and all things unlocked would pull me back for some more. It's a sandbox game after all and we should have all toys unlocked to play with.

👍 Agree- have said this many times. Event creator, choice of opponents in practise, variable money for winning if you are in a higher pp car or lower than opponents. So many simple tweaks with the model would just make the thing infinitely more involving long term. It almost crimininally negligent the relatively small amount of work needed to bring the game up to whole new level. Rather than solving bugs which are not apparent to anyone, or tweaking a better exhaust sound out of 3 cars; implement these incredible "toys" as new ideas.

I played solidly for at least a year, but for the last 4 months or so, have stopped entirely. Restarted a few days ago. Feels really fresh and fun again.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

You must have missed this one:

One wheel is on the track edge PD defines hence why it is valid and not cheating. They never pulled 2011 GT Academy EU due to people doing this as they were fine with the regulations they set out.

Yes I have tried it and am not alone in finding that at times it doesn't slow you down.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=252147

I think it is more about people failing to understand why people can go faster going on grass than not. It simply is due to being the faster racing line for Round 1. If you doubt my experience, you can see I’m not the slowest on that round. (http://www.mygranturismo.net/rankings.php?sub=overallTop5000_1&start=0)

You seem to have not watched the full replays of the fastest laps then as I can assure you that they would not be classed as clean under GTP OLR regs. As for a car being that far off the track being allowable in real life regulations that is utter nonsense, I quote the FIA regulations from both F1, the WTCC, GT2, GT3, World Endurance, etc:


Source - http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/62B9C15AB7B9819EC12579BB0041AC9F/$FILE/2012%20FIA%20WTCC%20Sporting%20Regulations%20V%208.03.pdf

The FIA define the track as being set by the track line boundary.

What is allowed in the GTA would get you black flagged at almost any real world racing event, hell off track excursions of that nature will get you kicked off circuit at a track day.

I have watched the full replays of the fastest laps for round 1. I think the only one of my laps that won’t be classed as clean under OLR is 1-3. I quite specifically said the image you showed would be classed clean under OLR.

Regarding FIA, for F1 I hear, you are only classed off the track if 4 wheels are off the track boundary, so 3 wheels off the track is valid which is similar to the way PD implemented. I can understand now why PD does it like the way they do it now. Track boundaries vary from track to track in the game like F1 tracks in real world have certain specifics as well what the boundary is.

GTA does not have grass / mud wear and variable track conditions so conditions are equal at all times. It is less of an issue in the game for that reason as you always reset back to default conditions after finishing. I can understand why you will get kicked off circuit at a track and that is due to not following code of conduct for the track. Regarding black flagging, I don’t think that will be due to gaining an advantage (If number of wheels on track abides by regulations) but for safety reasons if you constantly do it lap after lap after being warned. It is unlikely anyone will be doing that though in real life and same in virtual world if there was wear. PD are regulators of GTA, they are not concerned with grass being used as really it is not real world and it does not cost anything to repair as it is in virtual world as long as one wheel is on track edge, they are fine with it.

Just out of curiosity, what is your experience? The grass only seems to hurt you if you try to take a tight turn on it, or if you try to accelerate from low speed.

PD simply modeled it as tarmac with less grip, so all that happens when you go off is reduced traction/friction. This lowers cornering grip, but also lowers rolling resistance.

I've made use of the grass to help me win the Indy 500 faster when I was using the X1. It's also helpful on the Nurburgring back straight. Going in a straight line on grass consistently yields higher top speed as long as you're not gear limited.

PD's grass modeling does a good job for the most part when people are racing clean, but it's easy to exploit when people aren't.

I’m only really talking about the Leaf example, acceleration is slower when on grass.