Forza 4 vs GT5 physics (read the first post before contributing)
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Is that still true with the big changes in the latest patch? I'd say GT5 has made big steps forward in simulating the edge of grip, losing grip and regaining it again. Especially when you keep ABS turned off!
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I finally spent a decent amount of time actually driving in the newest patch of GT5, and I will say the feeling has improved. The tire model at the edge of grip is improved in the sense that it actually shows some progression... but I still believe FM4 does a better job at it. GT5 still has a "duck duck goose" feel when approaching the tires' limits of grip that both doesn't sit well with me, and doesn't telegraph enough of this grip relationship to the driver.
It still feels like there's some level of disconnect between lateral and longitudinal loadings on the tires. It's hard to explain, and I'd much rather leave it to someone more versed in the actual terms and physics behind it (such as Scaff).
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DriftEmotion FC
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IMO they are both great game BUT i think forza has the advatage here because of the fun factor, lets be real Better sound, more tuning, painting, etc etc. GT5 Physic's, more cars and thats all i think of, forza has better tracks all the cars sound like they should grapics are beast i mean i could go on and on but i would rather have GT5 its almost just as fun and has WAY better physic's i played forza for around 4 year's before that it was GT3 and GT4 my brother gave me Forza and i fell in love, because it was all new something that i always wanted GT to be and the physic's arent that bad GT could improve, Forza could improve they have thier strengh and weakness witch i pointed out in my list above that could go on forever but that would not prove anything, it's all a matter of opinoin when it come's to "is gt better of forza" but like i said forza is always going to have the edge of a lot of people just because of all the stuff you can do. Now think, if GT had these things? every so called racing game would be shut down even if you just mix Forza and GT together that would also make a hudge profit as well witch if i were Kaz i would have already looked into the matter but im done that's all i have to say lol im not really good with this unless in person but i gave my best 
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DriftEmotion FCIMO they are both great game BUT i think forza has the advatage here because of the fun factor, lets be real Better sound, more tuning, painting, etc etc. GT5 Physic's, more cars and thats all i think of, forza has better tracks all the cars sound like they should grapics are beast i mean i could go on and on but i would rather have GT5 its almost just as fun and has WAY better physic's i played forza for around 4 year's before that it was GT3 and GT4 my brother gave me Forza and i fell in love, because it was all new something that i always wanted GT to be and the physic's arent that bad GT could improve, Forza could improve they have thier strengh and weakness witch i pointed out in my list above that could go on forever but that would not prove anything, it's all a matter of opinoin when it come's to "is gt better of forza" but like i said forza is always going to have the edge of a lot of people just because of all the stuff you can do. Now think, if GT had these things? every so called racing game would be shut down even if you just mix Forza and GT together that would also make a hudge profit as well witch if i were Kaz i would have already looked into the matter but im done that's all i have to say lol im not really good with this unless in person but i gave my best
Sounds like most of what your saying belongs in the Forza vs gt5 thread not the physics.
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SuperShouden
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I keep forgetting that Forza and GT have two very different upbringings. Forza grew up in the Xbox Live side of the tracks where it saw great multiplayer experiences and has become, a very multiplayer focused game...not too focused on it, but enough for Turn10 to make the tracks a little wider and longer to better suit online play. GT, just got internet and online playing abilities in GT5. For it, this online play thing is a new concept. So, it's relied on a strong single-player experience, which has resulted in a focus on more...authentic racing experience. (Yes I know about the "crappy" Standard cars, but you know what, Forza has standards and premium cars, too, and at least you can drive the premium cars in GT5.)
Because Forza has grown up with a bigger focus on multiplayer, there are certain...things that they've relaxed a bit on, while being a bit more strict on others. Examples: going too far off line in Forza, and you slow to a crawl, with GT...there usually isn't that much off-road and when there is, it doesn't slow you down as much as Forza does...at least not as suddenly, which, if you're going 150mph, you're not gonna slow down to 10 in .5 seconds. In a multiplayer game, it's better to have the cars slow dramatically to prevent cheaters and corner cutters. In a single player game, you can focus a bit more on the reality of racing than on the stupidity of online idiots.
Another example: The trucks in Forza 4 are overly top heavy. While you CAN make them top heavy in GT5, it takes a bit of tuning. And, since the trucks way more, I guess it kinda (not really) evens them out to make them top heavy...although....I guess if you're on simulation damage, slamming into someone with a truck WOULD take them out, and rolling does do a bit of damage to the truck, but...I don't know...doesn't seem like a fair trade off to me. Better weight reduction options for trucks might have been a better route, but I'm not Turn10 and it wasn't my decision, so...whatever.
And there are a lot of little things in Forza that are purely focused on multiplayer, that almost sour the single player a little bit, just like there are things in GT5's single player that sour it's multiplayer experience. But, I think the main difference in these styles in the physics. Forza 4 and GT5 don't have similar physics at all because they're not focused on the same thing. GT is slowly becoming an Racing RPG, and Forza's headed towards a racing MMO. Horizon is close to a true Forza MMO, but not quite.. I see a prettier version of TDU2 in the future for Forza...GT...I'm not sure we'd get the true MMORPG experience out of it...maybe, but it'd feel very different.,,,It'd feel like an MMORPG with cars. TDU...kinda is an MMORPG...in the basic form, maybe. You DO play a role...but...it's really just a driving MMO. And that's what Forza Horizon kinda feels like to me...well...maybe an open world DIRT game would be a better way to describe Horizon than "MMO." but the series is headed there. GT would have the complexity of a true RPGMMO, I think.
Because Forza has grown up with a bigger focus on multiplayer, there are certain...things that they've relaxed a bit on, while being a bit more strict on others. Examples: going too far off line in Forza, and you slow to a crawl, with GT...there usually isn't that much off-road and when there is, it doesn't slow you down as much as Forza does...at least not as suddenly, which, if you're going 150mph, you're not gonna slow down to 10 in .5 seconds. In a multiplayer game, it's better to have the cars slow dramatically to prevent cheaters and corner cutters. In a single player game, you can focus a bit more on the reality of racing than on the stupidity of online idiots.
Another example: The trucks in Forza 4 are overly top heavy. While you CAN make them top heavy in GT5, it takes a bit of tuning. And, since the trucks way more, I guess it kinda (not really) evens them out to make them top heavy...although....I guess if you're on simulation damage, slamming into someone with a truck WOULD take them out, and rolling does do a bit of damage to the truck, but...I don't know...doesn't seem like a fair trade off to me. Better weight reduction options for trucks might have been a better route, but I'm not Turn10 and it wasn't my decision, so...whatever.
And there are a lot of little things in Forza that are purely focused on multiplayer, that almost sour the single player a little bit, just like there are things in GT5's single player that sour it's multiplayer experience. But, I think the main difference in these styles in the physics. Forza 4 and GT5 don't have similar physics at all because they're not focused on the same thing. GT is slowly becoming an Racing RPG, and Forza's headed towards a racing MMO. Horizon is close to a true Forza MMO, but not quite.. I see a prettier version of TDU2 in the future for Forza...GT...I'm not sure we'd get the true MMORPG experience out of it...maybe, but it'd feel very different.,,,It'd feel like an MMORPG with cars. TDU...kinda is an MMORPG...in the basic form, maybe. You DO play a role...but...it's really just a driving MMO. And that's what Forza Horizon kinda feels like to me...well...maybe an open world DIRT game would be a better way to describe Horizon than "MMO." but the series is headed there. GT would have the complexity of a true RPGMMO, I think.
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Only the hardcore fans of either series won't aknowlege the other game, I grew up with gt. but forza in my opinion copied the gt formula and made it better.
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I don't see how you can use Autovista cars and say it's the same as GT5's standard and premium car eyesore. Turn 10 isn't taking outdated FM1 car models and putting them into a current Forza game.
I agree. I think GT5 is the weakest GT game so far, and I choose FM4 over it. It just did not make a big impact for me like the other GT games. Sure, I was having a lot of fun with it for the first few months but afterwards it started getting boring, but I still kept playing even though it felt I was doing it begrudgingly at times. I tried taking photos, joined two online competitions here on GTP, doing seasonals, collected almost every car in the game, tried drifting, and just about anything else to keep GT5 alive for me. But the whole time, the game was on life support. And once I got my hands on FM4 and a Fanatec wheel on top of that, GT5 died for me. After playing GT5 for over a year since release and then giving Forza a go, I can safely say that I think Forza is better in almost every way. The only things I think GT5 has over Forza is its car models (20% of them anyway) look much better and it has a much more accurate representation of Nurburgring. But honestly, that's it.
That being said, I still love GT series as a whole, as I still play GT1-4 today.
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I don't see how that non sense is conductive to multiplayer at all. MP usually has tighter and more heated racing, along with more accidents (when the Forza AI isn't trying to outbrake you into every single corner no matter what). This can lead to situations where players are forced off track or forced to divert from the track to avoid something. The result? Arcadey glue grass. Forza's sticky grass has no place in the game. At the very least, players should be able to turn it off and then lock it in a cement block at the bottom of a harbor. At least then you can't have people nudge you off the road to catch you in a Mario Kart sand trap.
And speaking on the MP focus, now that I've tried both online, I much prefer GT's. Forza has far and away better room set up options, but online revolves around the quick race lobbies that I can't stand.
In GT, all rooms are player rooms so players have no choice but to go to player rooms to race, instead of avoiding them completely. GT also has the huge advantage of track day type events and tuning/practice/qualify before a race. Forza desperately needs to add that to online.
I don't quite get what you mean here, but I barely use trucks in GT and haven't yet used them in Forza. What do you mean by top heavy? And how do you make something top heavy in GT? Ballast can only be moved by length not height. Do you just mean prone to rolling over?
And I agree that weight reduction should see improvements. For one thing, it shouldn't be only % based. Yes a Bugatti is heavier than a Saleen, but there's no reason you couldn't get the former down to 2000 lbs by re-engineering the car.
I can't really agree. They're both trying to be sims. The ideal physics should be the same for each. Why would it matter if one was RPG and the other was MMO?
Didn't read any of the posts, just going to state my opinion and be on my way...
I'm a bit GT biased, I'm sure, because I've been a fan since day 1. Only owned Forza 4 for 6 months.
Long story short, I got rid of Forza, it just didn't do it for me.
In some (many?) ways, Forza is superior, but when you're in a Ferrari blasting around the Nurburgring in Forza, the experience absolutely pales in comparison to GT5. Doesn't even come close.
One of the things I liked about Forza is that the cars can feel more "alive". For example, when at a stop, you can rev your engine and the whole car shakes and moves- in a realistic way too. In GT5 nothing happens.
The best car sounds in GT5 I think are better than the best of Forza's, but Forza's sounds are far better on average. Forza's engine and exhaust sounds are pretty good, but they seem to all sound the same after a while. They also don't sound very realistic, like they're tweaked to be more intense and dramatic than IRL.
I also really like the Autovista feature in Forza. I can't believe GT doesn't have something similar. What's the point of owning some beautiful cars if you can't get close to them and check them out? If PD doesn't implement a similar feature in GT6 they will have really dropped the ball.
I would say that small (like 900kg and under) cars in Forza are much funner to drive and feel more realistic than in GT5. When you take them to the limit, there's a sense of drama, even danger. In GT5 they are rock solid and stable, which is not at all accurate. I think the same is true for old, classic cars.
But at the end of the day, GT5 takes the cake. Superior graphics, superior high-speed physics, and other minor details make it a more immersive experience, and push it (just barely) into the simulator category. Forza to me is still an arcade game, although a very good one.
I'm a bit GT biased, I'm sure, because I've been a fan since day 1. Only owned Forza 4 for 6 months.
Long story short, I got rid of Forza, it just didn't do it for me.
In some (many?) ways, Forza is superior, but when you're in a Ferrari blasting around the Nurburgring in Forza, the experience absolutely pales in comparison to GT5. Doesn't even come close.
One of the things I liked about Forza is that the cars can feel more "alive". For example, when at a stop, you can rev your engine and the whole car shakes and moves- in a realistic way too. In GT5 nothing happens.
The best car sounds in GT5 I think are better than the best of Forza's, but Forza's sounds are far better on average. Forza's engine and exhaust sounds are pretty good, but they seem to all sound the same after a while. They also don't sound very realistic, like they're tweaked to be more intense and dramatic than IRL.
I also really like the Autovista feature in Forza. I can't believe GT doesn't have something similar. What's the point of owning some beautiful cars if you can't get close to them and check them out? If PD doesn't implement a similar feature in GT6 they will have really dropped the ball.
I would say that small (like 900kg and under) cars in Forza are much funner to drive and feel more realistic than in GT5. When you take them to the limit, there's a sense of drama, even danger. In GT5 they are rock solid and stable, which is not at all accurate. I think the same is true for old, classic cars.
But at the end of the day, GT5 takes the cake. Superior graphics, superior high-speed physics, and other minor details make it a more immersive experience, and push it (just barely) into the simulator category. Forza to me is still an arcade game, although a very good one.
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Scaff
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I'm going to address the non-physics side of things here:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7895584#post7895584
As its the correct thread for doing so.
In regard to physics I have to confess that I am at a loss to understand how you can consider a title that ignores the fundamentals of tyre physics as a sim and yet class a title that does cover these areas as 'arcade'?
Now neither title gets the tyre physics right (or all of the physics of vehicle dynamics for that matter), as such both of them fall into the sim category, and to be honest I simply can't agree that GT5 pulls ahead of FM4 at all in regard to physics.
hogger129
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I own both. I have to say I can't tell too large a difference in the "physics." Forza is cool because there's so many more customization options and cars to choose from. GT5 to me is lacking in that category and in the car sounds.
One of the advantages GT5 has is being on the PS3 because you don't need to pay to have online service. Forza is honestly pretty boring if you can't go online and race against other people once in awhile.
I think GT did a way better job on the graphics too.
As for 'arcade' games, I don't really think either one is such. When I think of an 'arcade' racing game I think of Project Gotham.
One of the advantages GT5 has is being on the PS3 because you don't need to pay to have online service. Forza is honestly pretty boring if you can't go online and race against other people once in awhile.
I think GT did a way better job on the graphics too.
As for 'arcade' games, I don't really think either one is such. When I think of an 'arcade' racing game I think of Project Gotham.
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SuperShouden
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Except, they technically have. In fact, there are several cars in FM4 that have been up scaled through the years, like the '97 Acura NSX and '04 CTS-V (and to me, these one's don't look as good as the new vehicles) And a good chunk of the cars in FM3 are in FM4. That's how the Forza car list keeps getting bigger while the development time between games remains the same.
And it was GT4 models that were imported into GT5...which, again, a lot of the FM3 car list is in FM4...so...people seem to forget that Turn10 does that and they've always done that. Again, for a multiplayer game, a little "Greatest Hits" Car List from the previous game is a good idea. Heck, they even did it between FM4 and FH.
I think the idea is so people can't take advantages by cutting corners. I will admit, it's a little silly at times, like the going even barely off the track on the Corkscrew on Laguna Seca slows you way down...I've seen real race car drivers cut that corner a million times.
I actually agree. It's been a long time since I raced online in Forza, though. I might do some online racing this weekend, though, we'll see.
You should be able to find videos of the Audi Q7 literally rolling around the Top Gear Test Track in GT5 on Youtube. It essentially calls for raising the ride height up and making the suspension super stiff.
But, the trucks in Forza are just more prone to roll over. I mean, I have the suspension on my Ram really soft, and it still rolls like a cow. It's REALLY hard to race at Sunset Peninsula when your vehicles rolls every time you clip a rumble strip.
I'm not saying it does matter. I personally like both games.
Yes, they are both sims, but.......Let me put it this way: Forza and GT are like Almond Joy and Mounds. They're both delicious, but sometimes you feel like a nut, and sometimes you don't. You all can argue amongst yourselves about which game is Almond Joy and which one is Mounds.
Whilst I agree some models in FM4 are older and don't look quite as good as newer ones the divide in quality is not the same as premium and standard in GT5, not even close. Of course every car has a detailed cockpit as well, not shadow models that shouldn't have even been acceptable in a PS1 game.
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But it comes at the cost of realism, giving rammers another cheat tool, general annoyance, and it's forced on you everywhere.
It doesn't belong in anything remotely close to a sim. If someone causes trouble kick them, don't add some intrusive poorly though out feature that gets in the way of everyone even if they're not trying to cheat (and the definition of cheating should be up to the players, not the devs).
Again, I haven't tried them yet, but this doesn't sound wrong. Trucks are much more prone to rolling than cars, and since you can't do anything about one of the main reasons for this (high cg of the chassis) it would make sense that even with tuning, they remain a bit rolly.
By the way did you just mess with the springs, or the dampers too? Make the springs soft but also stiffen the damping rebound. If you don't the energy in the compressed spring is just going to try to lift the car up.
Well let's go back to what you originally said, that the physics are different because the game focus on different things (MP vs SP). Why would that imply a difference in physics necessarily?
SuperShouden
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Forza, to me feels like more of a "pick up an play" game, where anyone could easily, pick it up, hop online, and race. And it kinda has been that way for a while, which is why the online kinda sucks 'cause there's a lot of people who don't know what they're doing. Anyway, if you make a game so just anyone can pop in and play without something like the GT license tests, then you have to make things a little easier. They're both sims, yes, but to me...Forza's always been a bit easier to handle. This is I think evident a little bit in the difficulty settings. GT just doesn't really have any. The difficulty settings there are what car you use for the race and which race your racing. With Forza...there are actual difficulty settings, AND, even in year 7 of Forza 4, M. Rossi still hit the wall on Infineon Stock Car Course and took out pretty much the entire field but me. (And I barely managed to escape) Also, having all the AI drivers pretty much the same race to race AND color coated makes it easier for new and old drivers to build rivalries in the SP campaign. Of course, it tells you who and what you'll be racing against, so you can plan accordingly, but, again, that just makes it a bit easier.
Heck, Forza 4's the first time the dynamic difficulty has been used and that's only for World Tour, which the only reason you do that is for the achievements. (I'm just completed year 7, three more to go then on to the event list.)
Technically and really, SP vs MP shouldn't effect the physics...but...it does. Let's put it this way: GT was raised in Japan, FM was raised in the USA....they're gonna be different. GT was raised in SP land and FM in MP land...they have both grown up to be two wonderful, but different games with different physics models.
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