Forza 4 vs GT5 physics (read the first post before contributing)

[Samus]

There is nothing stopping you hopping online in GT5, you don't have to do the license tests so I don't get your point.

 

[Exorcet]

Forza, to me feels like more of a "pick up an play" game, where anyone could easily, pick it up, hop online, and race. And it kinda has been that way for a while, which is why the online kinda sucks 'cause there's a lot of people who don't know what they're doing. Anyway, if you make a game so just anyone can pop in and play without something like the GT license tests, then you have to make things a little easier. They're both sims, yes, but to me...Forza's always been a bit easier to handle. This is I think evident a little bit in the difficulty settings. GT just doesn't really have any. The difficulty settings there are what car you use for the race and which race your racing. With Forza...there are actual difficulty settings, AND, even in year 7 of Forza 4, M. Rossi still hit the wall on Infineon Stock Car Course and took out pretty much the entire field but me. (And I barely managed to escape) Also, having all the AI drivers pretty much the same race to race AND color coated makes it easier for new and old drivers to build rivalries in the SP campaign. Of course, it tells you who and what you'll be racing against, so you can plan accordingly, but, again, that just makes it a bit easier.

Well, GT5 license test aren't mandatory. I also don't think they help at all in making better drivers, especially the ones that force you to pass a huge amount of cars in an unrealistic amount of time. That's just conditioning to wreck other people.

GT also has basically the same difficulty options as Forza. AT vs MT, TCS, ABS, ASM, racing line, auto steer (I can't remember if that's in GT, but I think it is), and of course SRF. And of course, Forza tries to get you to race "fair" in every race. Originally, it was impossible to bring an over powered car into any race. Now it's optional, but it impacts your credits.

That said, I do agree that Forza is a bit more pick up and play, not because of difficulty but because of the game structure. Online wants to funnel you to premade rooms using pre defined cars classes with pre defined rules. Every room is the same, so there is no point comparing rooms except for when you have too many or too little people in the room for your liking. There is no serious racing in the quick race lobbies. As a result, you don't get serious racers.

Forza has the potential to cater to serious racing on a level that GT can only dream of. Part of it is the physics. Every car in Forza is convincing and distinct, which is something that I don't think can be said about GT. The physics also make tuning much more effective and realistic, plus Forza gives you telemetry to actually make informed decisions on tuning. GT just lets you guess. Move away from the physics, and Forza's custom room options crush what you get in GT. With in the bounds of the car and track selection, you can pretty much make any race you want. Multi class, time based races, detailed tuning restrictions, etc, these things are missing from GT and its very obvious once you go from one game to the other. The only problem is that Forza is built around its little 3 lap casual races and the majority of players never bother to look elsewhere for a race.

Technically and really, SP vs MP shouldn't effect the physics

That I agree with.

Although, I still don't think each game's "upbringing" is what's ultimately responsible for the physics in each game. We both agree that shouldn't be the case. Each dev has targets in mind when it comes to physics. Right now, it seems Turn 10 is more interested in realism. PD wants something else ("balance" I guess).

 

[leeson]

Go get some fresh air, guys. It's just a video game. If you want the real experience, get in a car.

 

[Samus]

Go get some fresh air, guys. It's just a video game. If you want the real experience, get in a car.

Good idea, i'll just go and hop in my Audi LMP car and pop for out for a drive.

 

[Exorcet]

Go get some fresh air, guys. It's just a video game. If you want the real experience, get in a car.

Have you tried this? It takes time, money, gas (more money), and isn't exactly practical when your region is burried by snow.

They are games yes, and the above is just part of why games, or at least sims, should offer realistic experiences.

 

[Spagetti69]

Technically and really, SP vs MP shouldn't effect the physics...but...it does. Let's put it this way: GT was raised in Japan, FM was raised in the USA....they're gonna be different

If I went ice skating in Japan it would be different to ice skating where I live?

Is gravity more or less in Japan? I must visit sometime.

Anyway it was GT that introduced online/offline,SP/MP physics. Don't level that at Forza.

I'm not seeing why Forza should get a bash for having quick race lobbies either. It still offers rooms dedicated to fuller experiences.

 

[machschnel]

How did this go from physics to 3d models?

Well how else did you expect GT5 to win a "versus" discussion?

 

[thelvynau]

Well how else did you expect GT5 to win a "versus" discussion?

Im talking about the fact this is the physics thread seems like everything about the games is being thrown into the mix here.

 

[Terronium-12]

Go get some fresh air, guys. It's just a video game. If you want the real experience, get in a car.

What a marvelous idea, and since you're full of bright ideas how about lending me a cool one million so I can test drive that CCX I was checking out the other day.

Next time if you have nothing useful to say, back away from the keyboard and keep it to yourself.

 

[SuperShouden]

If I went ice skating in Japan it would be different to ice skating where I live?

Is gravity more or less in Japan? I must visit sometime.

Anyway it was GT that introduced online/offline,SP/MP physics. Don't level that at Forza.

I'm not seeing why Forza should get a bash for having quick race lobbies either. It still offers rooms dedicated to fuller experiences.

You should try it, and come back and tell us.

Look you....people...I'm actually trying to have a conversation, here. If you can't say anything nice or constructive, shut up.

On the note of physics....you know...I wish Forza had weather and day/night cycles...I'd love to see their wet track physics and how they handle night racing....to me...that's a big plus for GT5. It may not have the greatest selection or physics or whatever, but it does have some awesome weather and day/night cycles. (Horizon doesn't count as a true Forza game, in my opinion. It's basically Forza DiRT. And doesn't feel the same.)

But yeah...I wish there was weather in Forza...and pit stops...whatever happened to those? they were in the first two games at least. Then they disappeared. Maybe it has to do with the SP vs MP thing....maybe it's the different audiences thing...who knows.

EDIT: to the guy who said to get in a real car if you want a real experience....that's true. That's the best way to experience a true, authentic driving experience. I don't know why everyone's being sarcastic with you? I mean, you never said hop in your super exotic sports car and take a few laps around the track, you just said go for a drive....so....yeah...people...

 

[C_Raccoon23]

Go get some fresh air, guys. It's just a video game. If you want the real experience, get in a car.

Oh, so you can do the real thing. Tell us more on how easy it is to drive any car we want in real life like we can in GT and FM.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Look you....people...I'm actually trying to have a conversation, here. If you can't say anything nice or constructive, shut up.

The irony of this is rich.

• You don't get to tell other members where they can and can't post.
• Cop an abusive attitude in here again, and there will be repercussions.

...

For those who do fall more on the FM-side when it comes to regular play, I will recommend checking out GT5 again for the most recent updates, as the physics tweaks have been a step in the right direction.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Although I have not read through all of the (currently 1400+) replies, I think there is a false assumption being made in regards to both games. The assumption is that their physics are designed to achieve the same goals, when that simply isn't the case.

Having been part of game dev physics in the past, I know that there are a lot of shortcuts taken in order to save cycles. Also, you are trying to achieve the simulation of an end result that is more consistent than true physics would offer while at the same time being less processing intensive.

Having played both games, I get the sense that GT5 was designed to be more entertaining while Forza was designed to be more authentic. The answer to "which is better" is dependent on the target market. Given that the GT5 community is still robust, I would argue that the design choice made by the GT5 team was a better one.

 

[hogger129]

Having played both, I still find GT5 to be a better all-around game. I think the "physics" of GT5 are more realistic too. The only area I find that Forza has it beat is in customization options and car selection.

 

[rocketcaron]

After playing both games for more than a year now using a Fanatec GT2 with Clubsport pedals and Porsche shifter, my conclusion here is that I like FM4 the most but its a real close contest.

I've been through a lot of changes in opinions that I think are just unavoidables considering how deep both games are. The number of things that can affect your appreciation of these physic engines is stagering.

1st reason why FM4 wins: Tire model. Just overall superior. Traction loss and regain is just more progressive and realistic and just better translated through the steering wheel. This is an interesting fact because the force feedback programmed in FM4 is significantly weaker than in GT5 but yet they acheive a better feeling of whats happening friction wise.

GT5 is better at making you feel bumps and road deformations.

2: Clutch action. Irrelevant for people using a controller or don't have a gated shifter but for the rest of us, this makes a big difference. GT5 got a bit better with the updates but yet FM4 clutch just give you that organic feel and true to life friction that makes the off the line, upshifting and heel and toe braking feel real.

And I know that its not really physic related but (yes, again...) engine, tires and now body noise (at high speed) all convey a greater immersion alongside with the physic aspects I mentioned.

 

[hennessey86]

Both games are good, both have there flaws. I play both daily and while I do think forza is more realistic, GT5 isn't far behind. It just needs a better tire model and the games would be equal interms of physics.in other areas GTis miles behind

 

[Exorcet]

GT5 isn't far behind. It just needs a better tire model and the games would be equal interms of physics.

GT's suspension and aero model would still be behind.

 

[Scaff]

The answer to "which is better" is dependent on the target market.

Not really as its perfectly possible to use reality as a benchmark and work from that point.

Given that the GT5 community is still robust, I would argue that the design choice made by the GT5 team was a better one.

Which assumes that the only reason why people bought both was down to the physics engine and also that sales volumes are directly related to accuracy of that physics engine. Neither of which hold up under any scrutiny.

I think the "physics" of GT5 are more realistic too.

Why?

Given that the issues with GT5s tyre model, suspension model and aero quite clearly have a distance to go to match what FM4 is doing (and FM4 still needs work in these areas as well)

GT's suspension and aero model would still be behind.

👍

 

[hennessey86]

GT's suspension and aero model would still be behind.

Very true

 

[SuperShouden]

The irony of this is rich.

• You don't get to tell other members where they can and can't post.
• Cop an abusive attitude in here again, and there will be repercussions.

.....You know what, I'm not even going to go there. I could...but there'd be repercussions.

***********REMOVED*********

 

[Scaff]

.....You know what, I'm not even going to go there. I could...but there'd be repercussions.

***********REMOVED*********

Your quite right that there will be repercussions.

Your passive aggressive nonsense and repeated off-topic posting end now. We have a thread for general GT vs FM discussion, use that.

If you continue to post off topic in this thread the staff will consider it an indication that you hold the site and the AUP in little regard and as such wish to forfeit your membership.

 

[thelvynau]

Unfortunately I dont play gt5 as much as I like to forza has me hooked from the torque steer when taking off to feeling the tyres lose grip and regain when pushing your car.

I hope gt6 improves the aero, suspension and tyre models.

 

[05XR8]

I've played both series from the start. The physics of GT5 allow better road holding(grip). Forza4 have a better virtual suspension(driving feel), if you will.

 

[UKMikey]

Going back to GT5 after playing FM4 that same grip seems to make it harder to turn into tight corners in GT without slowing down to a crawl first. I don't know whether this is more realistic or not but it's frustrating to play. I get less sense of the grip changing with throttle than with Forza 4.

I have yet to apply the latest Spec update though.

 

[Scaff]

Going back to GT5 after playing FM4 that same grip seems to make it harder to turn into tight corners in GT without slowing down to a crawl first. I don't know whether this is more realistic or not but it's frustrating to play. I get no sense of the grip changing with throttle.

An unfortunate side effect of GT5's lack of progression from the tyre model, and no its not realistic, tyres don't go from grip to no grip (and back again) in a digital manner.

 

[NCRthree]

Going back to GT5 after playing FM4 that same grip seems to make it harder to turn into tight corners in GT without slowing down to a crawl first. I don't know whether this is more realistic or not but it's frustrating to play. I get less sense of the grip changing with throttle than with Forza 4.

I have yet to apply the latest Spec update though.

I enjoy this thread a great deal and like reading about Forza's tire model compared to GT5. Thanks Scaff and others for posting all the technical information.

I haven't played Forza but just wanted to throw out a couple GT5 observations after reading the quote above. Now I'm not a technical person nor an alien type driver who can flick a car around a track in a physics busting manner. I try to drive like I would in real life which is enough for me.

I'd driven with ABS 1 as my only aid for ages. The last few months I gave that up. First effect was what the poster noted. I could turn in so much quicker without ABS. Learning to drive without it was very challenging, so used to stomping the brakes with no concern of lock up or weight transition. Not to mention the annoying turn in understeer with AWD's and FWD's. I know the vast majority of GT5ers use ABS1 for various reasons. Really started to see that the aid effects much more than braking after driving without it for a while. I use stock cars on default or lesser tires just to have common ground between cars.

The information Scaff posted about tire scrubbing in Forza got me wondering about this in regards to ABS in GT5. Drove a stock Audi R10 at Spa RH tires first with ABS1. Turn in was as underwhelming as always with no speed lost or tire grip effect. This was in high to medium speed turns that don't envolve braking. Then with it ABS off it was a big change. The main observation was when I turned in too late, grip loss occured along with a loss of steering feedback and smoking front tires. It felt like actual weight transition occured as when I would get back on throttle to settle the car, the steering feel returned and the tire screeching ceased. I'm almost positive speed was lost as the car felt like it had overwhelmed it's tire grip. No such behavior with ABS at 1. I don't know whether this constitutes tire scrubbing as I'm not that technical but something's going on. It's just funny that the cars behavior is changed without ABS even when actual braking isn't applied.

Also the 2.09 update has improved the driving feel a lot especially on comfort and sport hards. It "seems" like grip transition is more noticeable now in those tires. After all the posts about Forza's tire model, I'm starting to pay more attention to the tire grip transition in GT5. Like I said, I'm pretty much a layman with this stuff and learning a lot from you guys. Wish I could give Forza a go but buying another wheel isn't an option right now.

 

[hennessey86]

The only thing turning abs off achieves for is making the cars feel highly unstable, I think it's a myth that abs effects other things other than breaks. My own car has abs and I no what it feels like and it feels nothing like it does in gt5.

 

[NCRthree]

The only thing turning abs off achieves for is making the cars feel highly unstable, I think it's a myth that abs effects other things other than breaks. My own car has abs and I no what it feels like and it feels nothing like it does in gt5.

I agree, my real life Evo X behaves nothing like abs in GT5-way too much of a stability aid. I'd agree about it being a myth of having no other effects but I've done so much back and forth comparisons that I've come to the conclusion that it does.

 

[Scaff]

GT5 ABS also adds in a form of EBD (Electronic Brake Distribution) which acts as a form of stability control under braking.

Its fairly obvious in is application as brake bias does pretty much nothing at all with ABS is on (even set to 1), switch ABS off and you now have the brake bias having an effect, and as the default setting for GT is equal Bias front and rear you now have cars that are unstable under braking.

 

[HBK]

Having played both games (and series) a lot, it seems obvious that GT5 does a lot more shady stuff than FM4 behind the scenes.

In fact, and I may have already expressed that opinion around here, it seems pretty obvious that the physics engine of FM4 is much more advanced, in the sense of much more complex, than the physics engine of GT5.

There are quite a number of hints, from general car behavior to the damage model and tuning options, that GT5's physics engine is actually quite simple in the sense that it does not simulate a lot of components that interact with each other (like the suspensions, the brakes, the engine, the tires, etc) but has what we call in our field a more "mathematical" approach. A big equation that does a great job and is quite easy to compute (low processor usage) but is in the end a giant approximation that is tweaked to simulate a lot of behaviors without actually trying to "physically" simulate stuff.

The end result is that GT5 can be much more accurate on some behaviors but will not simulate anything that wasn't put there in the first place, whereas FM4 may be less accurate on some behaviors but will be able to reproduce a lot of stuff without the designers having to actually think about it other than trying to simulate each component as faithfully as possible.

Both approach have their merits, but now that we have so much processing power under the hood Forza's more "physical" approach put it leagues ahead of its competitor in a number of fields. Tire grip, torque steer, components damage (even if quite simple and permissive), and now with the new suspension model (FM4), FM4 does a lot of stuff better than GT5, even if of course there's a lot of stuff going wrong with FM4.

Given how differently they seem to do things, I'm all but confident that GT6 will be able to close the gap when FM5 comes out, unless of course FM5 screws it up, which is always within the realm of possibilities.