Forza 4 vs GT5 physics (read the first post before contributing)

[WTFnews]

GT vs Forza in physics? Well if someone such Kaz states that GT5's physics are on par with reality, that's good enough for me.

Afterall, he has a class win at the 'Ring, which is more than any self-proclaimed "expert" here at GTPlanet can state.

after this comment everyone just should of shut up cuz this is reality

 

[Scaff]

after this comment everyone just should of shut up cuz this is reality

A number of point in the AUP exist that you should really re-read before posting again.

However your point is quite frankly nonsense. For a start Kaz has a rather vested interest in GT being a success (i.e. his paypacket and continued employment).

However if motorsport success within the sims team is your measure of the accuracy of the sim then may I introduce you to....

http://www.gunnarjeannette.com/


....who worked with T10 on FM4 (and previous FM titles) and who's motor sport credential speak for themselves.

Please don't insult other members again, don't use text-speak and please don't use logical fallacies in place of actual reason.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

A number of point in the AUP exist that you should really re-read before posting again.

However your point is quite frankly nonsense. For a start Kaz has a rather vested interest in GT being a success (i.e. his paypacket and continued employment).

However if motorsport success within the sims team is your measure of the accuracy of the sim then may I introduce you to....

http://www.gunnarjeannette.com/


....who worked with T10 on FM4 (and previous FM titles) and who's motor sport credential speak for themselves.

Please don't insult other members again, don't use text-speak and please don't use logical fallacies in place of actual reason.

What is interesting is his team-mate last year was Lucas, first GT Academy winner.

 

[Scaff]

What is interesting is his team-mate last year was Lucas, first GT Academy winner.

It was indeed, an observation that would arguably make his opinion (slightly) more impartial than Kaz's in that regard, as his main income is not linked to the games success (as Kaz's most certainly is).

However both are being paid for the work they do and a part of that will most certainly include the marketing and promotion of the title in question. After all its not hard to find drivers linked to sims who are happy to say they have excellent physics engines. All should be treated with caution.

 

[Zer0]

I don't see the relation between a part time advisor with a success career as a professional driver before Forza already exists and a game director who trains with their game and ended participating in professional events succesfully. Or between all the finalists of the GT Academy that win races and competitions.

The success speaks for itself without the need of much more marketing. Like it or not all that would not be possible without the GT5 push.

 

[Tornado]

First person to spot the two rather obvious issues with the video gets an internet cookie.

Is one of them how he countersteered when his back tires hit the grass in the Forza part (albeit probably not enough) but held his steering angle when the same happened in GT5? I don't see the second thing, but I did just wake up.

I don't see the relation between a part time advisor with a success career as a professional driver before Forza already exists and a game director who trains with their game and ended participating in professional events succesfully.

Of course you don't. The relation is that they're both irrelevant, by the way.

 

[Scaff]

I don't see the relation between a part time advisor with a success career as a professional driver before Forza already exists and a game director who trains with their game and ended participating in professional events succesfully. Or between all the finalists of the GT Academy that win races and competitions.

That you don't see it is exactly the problem.

Do you honestly think that Kaz is an impartial and un-bias source of information in regard to the GT series?

Do you honestly think that his (in reality modest) success in racing is simply a product of his time with the GT series and his wealth of contacts, money and time are also a factor?

The success speaks for itself without the need of much more marketing. Like it or not all that would not be possible without the GT5 push.

We have been down this route before a number of times and quite frankly nothing at all exists to prove that the success of competitors in the GTA is down to GT alone and that it could not be repeated with just about any sim.

What's most odd about your comment is that the GTA is simply one big marketing exercise, they (Sony, PD and Nissan) are not doing it simply to be nice people.

Is one of them how he countersteered when his back tires hit the grass in the Forza part (albeit probably not enough) but held his steering angle when the same happened in GT5? I don't see the second thing, but I did just wake up.

The GT5 off-track excursion also seems to be the result of a much quicker move onto the grass and also to a larger degree.

I believe in posting that Zero may also have forgotten about the rather huge amount of on-grass driving in the Leaf test from the last GTA.

 

[HBK]

First person to spot the two rather obvious issues with the video gets an internet cookie.

I might not be able to get you a cookie, but I'd be curious to know about those two rather obvious issues with this video.

Edit : Too slow

 

[Scaff]

I might not be able to get you a cookie, but I'd be curious to know about those two rather obvious issues with this video.

They have been mentioned above, but are:

The FM3 'off-track' excursion is much shallower and more gently done, however the big difference is that the FM3 section has correction applied to keep the car straight and the GT5 one actually visibly steers in a manner that will cause the car to spin.

The biggest issue however is using FM3 to illustrate FM4s physics, now Zero does mention that in his point but it does really question the entire point of using it.

 

[HBK]

Thanks

I wasn't looking at this kind of thing, I was more looking about the suspension movement. Also I'm watching these videos in 360p, doesn't help

Moral of the story is, driver input is as important as the physics engine itself.

 

[Zer0]

That you don't see it is exactly the problem.

Do you honestly think that Kaz is an impartial and un-bias source of information in regard to the GT series?

Do you honestly think that his (in reality modest) success in racing is simply a product of his time with the GT series and his wealth of contacts, money and time are also a factor?


We have been down this route before a number of times and quite frankly nothing at all exists to prove that the success of competitors in the GTA is down to GT alone and that it could not be repeated with just about any sim.

What's most odd about your comment is that the GTA is simply one big marketing exercise, they (Sony, PD and Nissan) are not doing it simply to be nice people.

As I said we all are biased but bias apart there are facts and the fact that he was not a pro and finished their races safe and with a great pace with less track hours compared to others pilots, just by filling the gaps with game training in the same car and track, gives some credibility. At least to me, marketing and words apart.

Yes GTA it's a big marketing exercise but it works and gives results in the real world.

Then you see minimal differences in the grass vid and makes it not a valid comparisson ok (read the vid description), but you didn't see the differences between your rollover video and how performs in the FM4 example?
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8016751#post8016751

 

[TokoTurismo]

Deleted.

 

[Tornado]

Then you see minimal differences in the grass vid and makes it not a valid comparisson ok (read the vid description),

I think purposely steering into a slide as he did in the first GT5 attempt vs. countersteering before it properly starts is a bit more than "minimal differences." Even in the second GT5 attempt he did nothing more than jerk the steering wheel to the right for a fraction of a second after the car already started coming around, but then just left it arrow straight when it didn't sort itself out immediately. Maybe Scaff can comment on that better, but at that point it seems to me a bit like that time someone was saying GT5 had torque steer after demonstrating it in a launch where he turned the wheel.

 

[Zer0]

I think purposely steering into a slide as he did in the first GT5 attempt vs. countersteering before it properly starts is a bit more than "minimal differences." Even in the second GT5 attempt he did nothing more than jerk the steering wheel to the right for a fraction of a second after the car already started coming around, but then just left it arrow straight when it didn't sort itself out immediately. Maybe Scaff can comment on that better, but at that point it seems to me a bit like that time someone was saying GT5 had torque steer after demonstrating it in a launch where he turned the wheel.

Even in that case, would make much of a difference?

At 1:17

 

[TokoTurismo]

^ Okay, that video shows what exactly happen to me when I raced my GTR Racecar on Nurbug few days ago. Its rear wheel slightly touched the grass and it just spun out. O_O

 

[hennessey86]

Even in that case, would make much of a difference?

At 1:17

In that video the point where he hits the grass most of the load would be on the tire that touches the grass which is ŵhy he span. In the gt5 and forza 3 vid the grass excursion is nothing like the video you have just posted.

 

[Scaff]

As I said we all are biased but bias apart there are facts and the fact that he was not a pro and finished their races safe and with a great pace with less track hours compared to others pilots, just by filling the gaps with game training in the same car and track, gives some credibility. At least to me, marketing and words apart.

No he's not a pro, funny how a good number of drivers in that particular event arn't full time professional racers either. Very few of them however have the funding and backing that Kaz does. His results are good, but given the backing he has and the rest of the drivers on his team not a major surprise, however to use that as somehow being proof of GT5s physics is a major leap to say the least.

Yes GTA it's a big marketing exercise but it works and gives results in the real world.

Works at what? Your going to need to be a bit more specific in that regard.

Then you see minimal differences in the grass vid and makes it not a valid comparisson ok (read the vid description), but you didn't see the differences between your rollover video and how performs in the FM4 example?
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8016751#post8016751

What?

The differences in approach between the FM3 and GT5 off-track excursion in that video are not minimal. If you are going to steer completely differently its not exactly going to be a valid comparison is it.

Oh and I said no such thing in the post you just quoted.


The simple truth of the matter is that neither of the titles comes even close to modeling off-track behavior well at all, both have serious issues in that regard and to try and claim that one is closer to PC sims in that regard is rather miss-guided to say the least. In the case of FM4 the sticky grass is enough to see to that and in GT5 the ability to drive in a straight line and gain speed is enough as well.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

In that video the point where he hits the grass most of the load would be on the tire that touches the grass which is ŵhy he span. In the gt5 and forza 3 vid the grass excursion is nothing like the video you have just posted.

Good thing about GT5 grass is if you have lateral loaded rear tyre like in video, it does that but in GT5 it is probably quite a bit easier than real life to recover. Hopefully they make it more hardcore and realistic in future games. Also if you have minimum lateral load on rear tyres, you don't start losing the rear end. In Forza 4, IIRC, you either get magic slow down grass or if you are off slightly, generally forgiving grass but slows car down by a little bit.

 

[HBK]

Yes GTA it's a big marketing exercise but it works and gives results in the real world.

Yet I fail to see how GTA success has anything to do with GT5's physics engine.

 

[Scaff]

Good thing about GT5 grass is if you have lateral loaded rear tyre like in video, it does that but in GT5 it is probably quite a bit easier than real life to recover. Hopefully they make it more hardcore and realistic in future games. Also if you have minimum lateral load on rear tyres, you don't start losing the rear end. In Forza 4, IIRC, you either get magic slow down grass or if you are off slightly, generally forgiving grass but slows car down by a little bit.

Then you recall incorrectly, hitting the grass with a single driven wheel in FM4 has pretty much the same effect as it will do in GT5, a loss of traction from that tyre and a good chance of a spin if you don't catch it. It can also happen on the rumble strip in both titles as well.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Then you recall incorrectly, hitting the grass with a single driven wheel in FM4 has pretty much the same effect as it will do in GT5, a loss of traction from that tyre and a good chance of a spin if you don't catch it. It can also happen on the rumble strip in both titles as well.

Any video showing this behaviour on FM4? I don't have a 360 to try this out at the moment. Maybe will get one later in the year.

 

[Scaff]

Any video showing this behaviour on FM4? I don't have a 360 to try this out at the moment. Maybe will get one later in the year.

Not to hand, I think I have one of a Vette losing it from the rear over a rumble strip, but I will see what I can do over the weekend.

 

[Zer0]

No he's not a pro, funny how a good number of drivers in that particular event arn't full time professional racers either. Very few of them however have the funding and backing that Kaz does. His results are good, but given the backing he has and the rest of the drivers on his team not a major surprise, however to use that as somehow being proof of GT5s physics is a major leap to say the least.

Works at what? Your going to need to be a bit more specific in that regard.

What?

The differences in approach between the FM3 and GT5 off-track excursion in that video are not minimal. If you are going to steer completely differently its not exactly going to be a valid comparison is it.

Oh and I said no such thing in the post you just quoted.

The simple truth of the matter is that neither of the titles comes even close to modeling off-track behavior well at all, both have serious issues in that regard and to try and claim that one is closer to PC sims in that regard is rather miss-guided to say the least. In the case of FM4 the sticky grass is enough to see to that and in GT5 the ability to drive in a straight line and gain speed is enough as well.

Not a major leap like you said, just realistic enought for me, and not as a blind proof, just another favorable point along with others that make me think positive about what GT5 is offering.

Works at this:
https://www.gtplanet.net/gt-academy-finalists-unsung-successes/

And thanks to being like this:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=272514

Straight line and gain speed? what do you mean? would be great that instead of a random vid about losing control in FM4 you replicate the discussed grass vid but with your standards of acuracy so we could compare the exact reactions with the real life vid and GT5.




I think that someone praised FM4 in the previous pages for the authenticity of its cars and how true feel to the real thing.

At 3:45


Most of their comments sound very familiar.

 

[Scaff]

Not a major leap like you said, just realistic enought for me, and not as a blind proof, just another favorable point along with others that make me think positive about what GT5 is offering.

Works at this:
https://www.gtplanet.net/gt-academy-finalists-unsung-successes/

And thanks to being like this:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=272514

So once again you don't bother answering people and simply post links!

How about you actually answer the questions I've posed.

Straight line and gain speed? what do you mean? would be great that instead of a random vid about losing control in FM4 you replicate the discussed grass vid but with your standards of acuracy so we could compare the exact reactions with the real life vid and GT5.

To be blunt its not going to be an accurate comparison given the well known and acknowledged issues with the 'ring in FM4.

More than happy to give it a go, however the point in question is if it occurs in both GT5 and FM4 under similar circumstances (not with rather different steering inputs and the wrong title in the series as the last video you posted shows).

I think that someone praised FM4 in the previous pages for the authenticity of its cars and how true feel to the real thing.

At 3:45

Most of their comments sound very familiar.

And......?

Can I ask do you actually an opinion of your own or is it your intention to simply post a load of links with no explanation of your own?

No one has ever to my knowledge claimed that every car in FM4 is a perfect recreation of its real life counterpart (would you make that bold a claim about GT5?), the video in question is also once again on the 'ring. A track inaccurate enough to throw up issues with a real life comparison itself. Its odd that you are happy to accept commentary that praises GT and/or critiques FM, yet anyone who presents the opposite is dismissed by you (oh and I thought you dismissed all magazine format reviews and analysis and simply being bought and paid for - maybe that's only the ones you don't like).

 

[shved111]

I think that the "tire model" and "model of deformation of the tire" is different things.
In gt5 can not increase or decrease the air pressure in the tire, the tires do not provide the softness of the car.
Therefore, I believe that the deformation of the tire model in gt5 not. Sometimes I think that even in gta4 model of tire a little more perfect than gt5.

As for the statements Kazunori, about what gt5 = reality. Is marketing.
But other than that, the GT series has never been a game with the most advanced physics. GT1, GT2, GT3, gt4. Have always been games on consoles with more realistic physics.
At PS1, it was NFS High Stakes, on PS2 Enthusia, and PC simulators

Perhaps Poliphony Digital Never to this and did not seek, perhaps for them much more important to them is how photorealistic the car goes on the track than what the car feels

Again nobody is saying that the low level of gamers options affect to how good can be the hardcore simulation.

About the tyre model I'm not saying "better than", I'm just saying that there is it. It's affected by the heat, by the wearing, by the weather, by the different track grip surfaces and used to generate according the tyre marks and the smoke. Even has a real time telemetry indicator.

About the off track physics, FM3 I know...

That in fm4 grass, is not slippery, it's no secret. Everyone knows about it. In gt5 slippery, and in real life is slippery, in fm4 is slippery just a little bit, almost absent difference coupling between grass and asphalt. And turn10 did it on purpose, in order to facilitate the gameplay, it's true. Their justifies only the fact that physics fm4 is complex, and no slippery grass

http://youtu.be/mKiTAcXK6M4?t=3m41s

At 3:45


Most of their comments sound very familiar.

I would be interested to know. Would respond to this and other similar video turn10 team.
They must not be silent, they must officially defend their model of physics. Officially comment, to specify the evidence

 

[Scaff]

I have just had a quick thought on the LFA and one possible reason for some of the differences (and it is just a thought), the LFa runs Bridgestone Potenza tyres as OEM items. All the tyre data used in FM4 is from Pirelli, so thoughts everyone, how much of a difference could that make.

 

[thelvynau]

I have just had a quick thought on the LFA and one possible reason for some of the differences (and it is just a thought), the LFa runs Bridgestone Potenza tyres as OEM items. All the tyre data used in FM4 is from Pirelli, so thoughts everyone, how much of a difference could that make.

do you mean differences between the LFA in real life and Forza? Or between the games.

 

[Scaff]

do you mean differences between the LFA in real life and Forza? Or between the games.

Between the LFA in real life and in FM4.

We know that the only tyre data T10 used was from Pirelli and also that the LFA is fitted OEM with Bridgestone's.

Now what we don't know is what T10 did to get around this, and what I am hypothesising is that they took the nearest Pirelli match to the Potenza's and use the data from that.

Which leads to a rather odd situation that the LFA in FM4 could be acting reasonable accurate for an LFA that is no longer running OEM tyres, but rather the Pirelli closest-fit.

Utterly impossible to know one way or another, but certainly worth discussing.

 

[TwistyDrift]

do you mean differences between the LFA in real life and Forza? Or between the games.

Forza looks close to real life. The LFA wasn't bouncing as much (More play in shocks) than the one in real life.

 

[thelvynau]

Between the LFA in real life and in FM4.

We know that the only tyre data T10 used was from Pirelli and also that the LFA is fitted OEM with Bridgestone's.

Now what we don't know is what T10 did to get around this, and what I am hypothesising is that they took the nearest Pirelli match to the Potenza's and use the data from that.

Which leads to a rather odd situation that the LFA in FM4 could be acting reasonable accurate for an LFA that is no longer running OEM tyres, but rather the Pirelli closest-fit.

Utterly impossible to know one way or another, but certainly worth discussing.

Very interesting well they could have gone either way.

Modifying the Pirelli data to accomodate the characteristics of the LFA which would require studying the car. Or just run with the Pirelli data and hope its similar.

I would love to know the answer from Turn 10.