Forza 4 VS GT5 (read the first post before you contribute)

[Goshin2568]

The realism of the experience? Personally I've never completely quashed the staring-at-a-flashing-electronic-box aspect of gaming, so my choice of controller or wheel comes down to precision, convenience, and reward, mostly. Do I need the extra control? Do I have a place to set up? Does the game make it worth my time? In the case of FM4 I'm out from the get-go with an incompatible wheel, but it's plenty good without one and it would fail the other criteria anyway.

So why do I want realism while playing with a gamepad? Because when I play a sim, I want cars that drive correctly. That's all.

But you aren't driving! Pushing buttons on a controller isn't driving. Turning a steering wheel and moving pedals is driving.

I don't know, maybe it's just different for you. I would rather play the most unrealistic game in the world with a wheel than iRacing with a controller. Muscle memory is the key. I want my hands and feet to be doing the same thing as they would in real life. Precision, convenience and reward or whatever doesn't matter if I can't close my eyes and be in the car. Holding a pad doesn't do it.

Think of it like this. Driving with a pad is like driving an expensive RC car. Yes, the physics are fantastic, obviously it's real life. But is it similar at all to actually being in a car? No! Driving is fun because of the interaction between man and machine. Your arms, legs, hands, feet, eyes, ears, nerves, are all connecting with the car. A racing sim with a wheel delivers 6 of those 7. A sim with a pad delivers 3 of the 7.

What it boils down to is this: Physics don't matter in a driving game if you aren't driving. And pad users aren't driving.

 

[hennessey86]

Got to agree with Goshin on this, I didn't spend 500 hundred pounds on set up to be told a pad is just as good as a wheel.

 

[Scaff]

Follow my post again I didn't come out raggin on anything until you said that's how it is in real life.

Still I didn't rag on either game all I said was it does not mimic the real life sensation. Again I like the sensation in both games I just want FM4 effects to come in earlier. 👍

I think the issue most people have is that you started you dsicussion hinting that this was a realism issue, complaining that FM4 didn't provide enough engine feedback via the wheel/pad (that's how it came across). However when a number attempted to clarify that you said that you don't care if its real or not you want it for the sense of immersion. Which is far enough but its certainly not a 'correct' feel. Then again a lot about control inputs is not correct, wheel or pad.

But you aren't driving! Pushing buttons on a controller isn't driving. Turning a steering wheel and moving pedals is driving.

Utter nonsense. The control interface doesn't dictate the action being carried out it simply determines how you cause that action to be carried out. In a driving/racing sim neither of these control mechanisms have you driving, they have you simulating driving.

I would also be interested to know what tanks do as well, as they don't use steering wheels, by your logic tanks are not drive?

Oh and as for cars.....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/9126441/Honda-designs-car-without-steering-wheel.html#

....don't get caught up in the concept, it drove and uses a tank style level system and by all accounts was extremely easy to drive.

I don't know, maybe it's just different for you. I would rather play the most unrealistic game in the world with a wheel than iRacing with a controller. Muscle memory is the key. I want my hands and feet to be doing the same thing as they would in real life. Precision, convenience and reward or whatever doesn't matter if I can't close my eyes and be in the car. Holding a pad doesn't do it.

Think of it like this. Driving with a pad is like driving an expensive RC car. Yes, the physics are fantastic, obviously it's real life. But is it similar at all to actually being in a car? No! Driving is fun because of the interaction between man and machine.

Can I take iRacing or FM4 with a pad instead please (or the RC car will do).

Your arms, legs, hands, feet, eyes, ears, nerves, are all connecting with the car. A racing sim with a wheel delivers 6 of those 7. A sim with a pad delivers 3 of the 7.

Neither deliver that 'number' as unless a pad or wheel simulates things exactly then its 'out'. For example a pad may not use your legs at all, but pedals only simulate the crudest of the actions and none of the true feedback.

A pad is less 'real' that a good wheel/pedal combo, but its still a long way from the level of realism your allocating to it.

What it boils down to is this: Physics don't matter in a driving game if you aren't driving. And pad users aren't driving.

Utter and complete nonsense.

 

[MaDHaX]

I havent checked here in quite sometime and wow 66 pages now and still counting. Even though I did give some comparison before between the 2 games I couldnt give a proper analysis because I did not play FM4 on a wheel. As of 2 weeks ago I get a knock on my door by DHL with a fanatec box and have played FM4 solid for 2 weeks, then microsoft decided that too many people have fanatec and not a microsoft wheel so they forcefully give us a new dashboard update that takes away my force feedback from the game, it does come back after 2 laps and brakes are back to normal after 4 laps but I'm worried that it might damage the wheel so I wont play FM4 until they fix it.

I'm going to give some more time before I give my verdict but FM4 physics on a wheel is very good. I think that the steering feedback could be better though, but fanatec are working on a new firmware that will improve steering which I for one deffinetely think it needs.

I've been playing GT for 2 years on a wheel now and FM4 for only 2 weeks but already I found 2 things wrong with the feedback not a huge problem but i'm hoping the new firmware will improve it. Now I think that you have to of played both games on wheel to know what i'm talking about, the problem I felt was:-

1. As you brake into a corner and start to get understeer suddenly the wheel gets light and for a split second before the car settles the wheel feels light and FFB dissappears for that period as if the front wheels on the car are not on the ground feeling.

2. When you compare the 2 games on a wheel the first thing you should notice is that in GT5 the wheel is constantly fighting with you, hit a bump you get feedback, go over a rumble you get feedback. In FM4 it is not like that, Savoury69 told me that it could be because of the different technology used in sending the feedback and that is wireless. As of now GT5 feels more realistic steering to FM4 because of the way the feedback works in relation to track layout, FM4 feedback does not fight with me, going over bumps or rumble strips does not result in FFB to let you know of the uneven surface, I think you get vibrations but not fighting FFB where the wheel wants to turn the other way that makes you have to fight with it to keep it going in the right direction.

There is a new beta firmware available for most of fanatec's wheels unfortunately the GT2 does not work with the beta due to some issue's but i'm sure will be fixed. I will give a better detailed analysis once I have the new firmware along with at least a months driving. I'm hoping the new firmware will get rid of these 2 problems and if they did it would be very hard for me to say which game is best on a wheel as the weight shifting FFB on FM4 is just as good as GT5.

 

[unv412]

Firstly I agree with goshin2568 regarding the pad debate.

Second i agree ^ with understeer FFB with fanatec (i have CSR with G27 pedals).

Thirdly my take on FM4: Better than GT5 because more immersive, better car selection (even though i love the GT5 jdm stuff), more in car selection (premium GT5?) and easy to access all cars.

The physics goes slightly to FM4 because it has excellent low speed/burnout characteristics (listening PD?) rest is on par with GT5, and you can hear engine load. Not so good is the touchy braking in all but high speed threshold applications (G27 pedals maybe). Grass physics are crap (gt5 more realistic).
Graphics' are as good as gt5, incar has no adjustability but at least you can read the gauges in all shadows and no jaggies.

Sounds are a winner for fm4.....but they are overdone to the point that almost every car has a big cam and sports exhaust (believe it or not most modern cars do sound like vacuum cleaners when you get up the rev range people!), still better than obvious auto-tune of one sound bite that GT5 does.

All in all gt5 made me go and get xbox + fanatec (G27 is better) (hate the crap click/clack cannot get 3 to 2 downshift crappy shifter) when i kept seeing DLC after DLC packs full of tasty cars......200 premiums just cannot compare.

PS i hate how fm4 has the crap american versions of cars with the mandated bigger bumpers and amber blinker side lights....

 

[Scaff]

1. As you brake into a corner and start to get understeer suddenly the wheel gets light and for a split second before the car settles the wheel feels light and FFB dissappears for that period as if the front wheels on the car are not on the ground feeling.

That's exactly what happens in the real world, its down to a force called Self Aligning Torque, its caused by how the contact patch builds up torque as it gets deformed (when you are turning and braking- as it wants to go back to its original shape) and as the limit is reached and it starts to return to its original shape the force is lost. As a result the resistance disappears and does so quite quickly.

2. When you compare the 2 games on a wheel the first thing you should notice is that in GT5 the wheel is constantly fighting with you, hit a bump you get feedback, go over a rumble you get feedback. In FM4 it is not like that, Savoury69 told me that it could be because of the different technology used in sending the feedback and that is wireless. As of now GT5 feels more realistic steering to FM4 because of the way the feedback works in relation to track layout, FM4 feedback does not fight with me, going over bumps or rumble strips does not result in FFB to let you know of the uneven surface, I think you get vibrations but not fighting FFB where the wheel wants to turn the other way that makes you have to fight with it to keep it going in the right direction.

A lot of the feedback you get from GT5 in this area is totally incorrect and should not be routed via the steering. Low speed suspension movement from small bumps in the road and irregularities in the track surface are not felt via the steering wheel in a real car. Rather they are felt by the whole body. GT5 routes these via the steering because its 'feels' immersive and exciting, but its not how you feel them in the real world. Forza removes these from steering feedback (which is quite correct) and shows them visually, not an ideal situation but it does mean the steering feedback has a lots less 'noise' masking the actual feedback from the tyres.


High speed suspension travel, which is caused by sharp irregularities such as expansion joints and rumble strips should be felt via the steering, however to say that they should always cause steering deflection is very misleading. That will depend on the suspension set-up, angle of the irregularities face and the angle and speed at which you strike it. In most cases it would result in minimal or zero steering deflection, and certainly that would tally from my own experience.

Forza also does most certainly model this and it can be felt on a number of tracks, in particular the transition from the old concrete surface to the new track surfaces at Sebring are very, very noticeable. This is also more than enough to cause steering issues if you car is set-up too stiffly.

The worst steering deflection I've come across on a regular basis was with my old 3-series, which would tramline for England, however that was down to the stupidly stiff sidewalls of the runflats and the results of lorries marking the surface of public roads enough to pull the steering off line. However this factor is not something that either title model, even on the tracks with public roads.

 

[unv412]

the understeer FFB i get just somehow feels too exaggerated in its lightness and also feels like the tyre chatter effect you get with a slick (FM4 car seemingly bobbs around alot) , not a smooth load up scrub on the outside tyre im used to IRL. Very similar to a standard tyre understeering in the wet actually!

 

[MaDHaX]

Hi Scaff and unv412, hmm interesting explanation there Scaff and understand what your saying but dont get how to translate that diagram.

Now it's interesting that you mention your not meant to feel the weight shifting of the car on the wheel. Even though I have experience in driving real cars, I dont however had the luxury of driving sports cars on a track because I would be able to give my direct differences between sim and real life. But... I have watched plenty videos of inside car views of drivers and all of them are constantly fighting with the wheel, now in real life most people would not get that because you need to be going very fast indeed. Example just go on you tube and watch an inside car view of a fast driver around the nurburgring, I say nurburg because the track is not smooth and flat and would be the perfect way to explain what i'm talking about. I think GT5 mimicks this very well and Forza does not implement this at all from my experience. Forza does not seem to have that fight back i'm talking about which I know does exist in driving a fast car really fast, the car will give you a hard time.

I'm not sure how else to explain this to you Scaff but trying to explain the best way I can.

 

[Scaff]

the understeer FFB i get just somehow feels too exaggerated in its lightness and also feels like the tyre chatter effect you get with a slick (FM4 car seemingly bobbs around alot) , not a smooth load up scrub on the outside tyre im used to IRL. Very similar to a standard tyre understeering in the wet actually!

I'm not saying that its done 100% correctly, simply that it should be present (as it is with FM4), which was addressing M8DH8X's query as to why it was happening and should it be happening.

Hi Scaff and unv412, hmm interesting explanation there Scaff and understand what your saying but dont get how to translate that diagram.

With the diagram as lateral (sideways) force is placed on the tyre the angle of travel of the car and the tyre start to differ (this is called slip angle and is the number on the red dots) and force starts to build that you can feel as resistance through the steering.

In this example at 400kgs of lateral force the slip angle is 1degree and you can feel 40 Nm of resistance in the wheel, this increases as lateral force builds so at 650kgs of lateral force you have 3degree of slip and just over 100Nm of resistance in the steering.

However once we get past this point you can see that for tiny increases in lateral force we are getting quicker increases in slip angle and a rapid fall of steering resistance. So by the time we get to 775kgs of lateral load and 6 degree of slip (the limits for this tyre) we have only 20Nm of resistance in the steering.

Note also how the steering resistance builds up slowly, taking an increase of 500kgs of lateral force to go from 0 to 100Nm, but only another 125kgs of lateral force to go from 100Nm back to 0. The drop off is far quicker than the build (four times quicker and importantly at a point when less experienced drivers may panic as the steering goes light very quickly) and its also important to note that if you want to get the absolute last drop of lateral grip from the tyre you have to drive both with the resistance building and more importantly with it falling very rapidly.

Now it's interesting that you mention your not meant to feel the weight shifting of the car on the wheel. Even though I have experience in driving real cars, I dont however had the luxury of driving sports cars on a track because I would be able to give my direct differences between sim and real life. But... I have watched plenty videos of inside car views of drivers and all of them are constantly fighting with the wheel, now in real life most people would not get that because you need to be going very fast indeed. Example just go on you tube and watch an inside car view of a fast driver around the nurburgring, I say nurburg because the track is not smooth and flat and would be the perfect way to explain what i'm talking about. I think GT5 mimicks this very well and Forza does not implement this at all from my experience. Forza does not seem to have that fight back i'm talking about which I know does exist in driving a fast car really fast, the car will give you a hard time.

I'm not sure how else to explain this to you Scaff but trying to explain the best way I can.

I've driven the 'ring and a number of very bumpy tracks and the wheel doesn't constantly fight you unless you are getting a lot of high-speed suspension movement (so it does for example in rallying). Don't mistake the forces acting upon a driver and causing movement for fighting against the steering, they are very different things indeed. The bumps on the 'ring and in particular rapid deceleration causes a lot of movement in the body, not all of it is coming from the steering at all.

Now it will vary from car to car and track to track, but low speed suspension movement has almost nil impact on steering and steering deflection, high-speed does. Now which a particular bump falls into depends on many factors, but GT5 throws everything (high and low speed) through the wheel and that simply shouldn't happen.

Think about the painted lines you sometimes getting approaching a junction, if you drive over them at slow speed (so the suspension travel velocity is slow) you can't feel them at all, as you increase speed you can feel them through the car but not the suspension and as you get to a certain speed you can feel them through both (so the suspnsion travel velocitry is now fast).

Again FM4 is not prefect in this area, far from it, but its at the very least not throwing in a lot of 'feedback' that simply should not be present.

Here's a great example of a TS030 (so very stiffly sprung):



Notice the movement of the car body on the long straight at Ricard from 41 seconds onwards, very clear and noticeable movement of the car and not a bit of it causing 'fight' through the steering, even some of what appears to be steering movement if you look is the driver being moved around by the car. Every bit of that movement GT puts through the steering as FFB and its shouldn't.

 

[MaDHaX]

Thanks Scaff for the explanation and I watched that video and that video shows exactly what i'm talking about, while that driver is taking the corners and hiting some bumps you can see the wheel slightly moving and the driver correcting, even though it's very slight it is there and FM4 does not have that resistance. I'm hoping the new firmware that will be released for my GT2 will change it for the better but right now I dont get that at all even before the update. At the moment i'm thinking GT5 has too much of that and FM4 does not have it at all.

The better way maybe for me to explain is while the suspension is working at high speed you get that resistance that you have to give slight corrections for. To me it just seems that FM4 does not have that. Maybe it could be different on a CSR elite wheel but cant confirm it.

 

[Goshin2568]

Utter nonsense. The control interface doesn't dictate the action being carried out it simply determines how you cause that action to be carried out. In a driving/racing sim neither of these control mechanisms have you driving, they have you simulating driving.

Oh come on. You can argue semantics and shout nonsense or you can grasp the spirit of what I was trying to say. Using a pad is so different from driving a car in real life that it may well be a completely different thing. Yes, the actual action of "driving" is the same, if you define "driving" as a vehicle moving around.

Don't pretend as if no one understand what I'm getting at. Are pad users in denial? Just because you aren't using a wheel, it doesn't give you the right to say that your experience is just as realistic, because it isn't. You get what you pay for. (Speaking in general here, not just to Scaff)

I would also be interested to know what tanks do as well, as they don't use steering wheels, by your logic tanks are not drive?

Oh and as for cars.....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/9126441/Honda-designs-car-without-steering-wheel.html#

....don't get caught up in the concept, it drove and uses a tank style level system and by all accounts was extremely easy to drive.

Again, trying to argue something completely irrelevant. Driving isn't fun because of the fact that a vehicle is moving around (aka your definition of driving), it's fun because of the interaction between man and machine, as I illustrated before.

Neither deliver that 'number' as unless a pad or wheel simulates things exactly then its 'out'. For example a pad may not use your legs at all, but pedals only simulate the crudest of the actions and none of the true feedback.

A pad is less 'real' that a good wheel/pedal combo, but its still a long way from the level of realism your allocating to it.



Utter and complete nonsense.

Holy cow... speaking of utter and complete nonsense. It doesn't have to simulate those thing completely, else wheel and pad would both be 0! It's the fact that in a car, I push down a pedal with my right foot. In a good wheel/pedal set, I push down a pedal with my right foot. With a pad, I squeeze a button with my right finger. It really isn't rocket science. Which is more similar? Hmmmm....

I don't understand what exactly you are arguing. You think I'm making a pad out to be too unrealistic?

My point is this. Driving with a pad is so unrealistic, so unlike driving a car in real life, that I don't understand why physics are important.

Do you ever hear people complain about physics in Call of Duty? Or FIFA? Or any other genre of video gaming? Not really. Why? Because they know it isn't realistic. Pressing the right trigger to shoot in COD is so unlike shooting in real life, that it's pointless to need perfectly realistic shooting physics. I don't understand why pad users think that their experience is different. It isn't. It's not realistic and pad users should get to grips with that.

 

[Wolfe]

I don't know, maybe it's just different for you. I would rather play the most unrealistic game in the world with a wheel than iRacing with a controller. Muscle memory is the key. I want my hands and feet to be doing the same thing as they would in real life.

Personally, I would rather play Live for Speed/iRacing/whatever with a controller than Gran Turismo 4 with a wheel (no exaggeration; the '4' is intentional). Personally, physics are the key. Personally, I want my car to behave the same way as it would in real life.

Personally, I care more about the REACTIONS of the vehicle than the ACTIONS I perform to control it.

My point is this. Driving with a pad is so unrealistic, so unlike driving a car in real life, that I don't understand why physics are important.

If the way the car REACTS is important to you, then physics are important. If you want realistic REACTIONS, you play a game with realistic physics. If you want realistic ACTIONS, you use a gaming wheel to do it.

I can't think of many more ways to answer your question.

 

[Goshin2568]

Personally, I would rather play Live for Speed/iRacing/whatever with a controller than Gran Turismo 4 with a wheel (no exaggeration; the '4' is intentional). Personally, physics are the key. Personally, I want my car to behave the same way as it would in real life.

Personally, I care more about the REACTIONS of the vehicle than the ACTIONS I perform to control it.


If the way the car REACTS is important to you, then physics are important. If you want realistic REACTIONS, you play a game with realistic physics. If you want realistic ACTIONS, you use a gaming wheel to do it.

I can't think of many more ways to answer your question.

I'm at an absolute loss to understand.

I understand and respect your opinion, I just don't understand why that is your opinion. I disagree with it so much it's literally boggling my mind.

The ACTION has to come before the REACTION. How on earth do you know the REACTION is realistic if the way you got the REACTION is so different?
"Well, in my car, I do this with the wheel and this happens. Let's just see if it's like this in the game. Let me just do the same thing with the wheel that I did in my own car. Oh wait...."



EDIT: I've just thought of something that might help you understand my confusion.
As far as I can work out, there is really only 2 reasons someone might like sim racing. (If there is a reason I'm missing let me know)

1. Because you love racing and can't do it in real life, so you use sims to improve your driving skills.
This obviously cannot be done with a pad. A pad will not really improve your driving skills, except maybe learning track layouts.




2. To have fun. And this is my point. If you use a pad, and your reason for playing is for fun, than why on God's green earth do you care how the car reacts??? Why not just play whatever game is the most fun? Why do physics matter? And "because I want the car to react realistically" isn't an answer. Why do you want the car to behave realistically? You're in it for the fun, not the realism, right?

 

[Terronium-12]

Oh come on. You can argue semantics and shout nonsense or you can grasp the spirit of what I was trying to say. Using a pad is so different from driving a car in real life that it may well be a completely different thing. Yes, the actual action of "driving" is the same, if you define "driving" as a vehicle moving around.

Don't pretend as if no one understand what I'm getting at. Are pad users in denial? Just because you aren't using a wheel, it doesn't give you the right to say that your experience is just as realistic, because it isn't. You get what you pay for. (Speaking in general here, not just to Scaff)



Again, trying to argue something completely irrelevant. Driving isn't fun because of the fact that a vehicle is moving around (aka your definition of driving), it's fun because of the interaction between man and machine, as I illustrated before.






Holy cow... speaking of utter and complete nonsense. It doesn't have to simulate those thing completely, else wheel and pad would both be 0! It's the fact that in a car, I push down a pedal with my right foot. In a good wheel/pedal set, I push down a pedal with my right foot. With a pad, I squeeze a button with my right finger. It really isn't rocket science. Which is more similar? Hmmmm....

I don't understand what exactly you are arguing. You think I'm making a pad out to be too unrealistic?

My point is this. Driving with a pad is so unrealistic, so unlike driving a car in real life, that I don't understand why physics are important.

Do you ever hear people complain about physics in Call of Duty? Or FIFA? Or any other genre of video gaming? Not really. Why? Because they know it isn't realistic. Pressing the right trigger to shoot in COD is so unlike shooting in real life, that it's pointless to need perfectly realistic shooting physics. I don't understand why pad users think that their experience is different. It isn't. It's not realistic and pad users should get to grips with that.

Are you still going on about this nonsense? What do you care what a pad user feels in comparison to someone using a wheel? If I want to analyze the simulation aspect of FM4 according to scientific data then I'm going to do it regardless of what the input method is.

Do the variables change? No they don't. Therefore, prone to criticism.

And if you want to pull that "so unlike real life" card, then using a wheel to play a video game is also, at it's fundamental core, just as unrealistic as any other input method. There is no fear involved, there are no g-forces involved, there is no inherent danger whatsoever. You crash, you start over. You turn into a corner at 97 mph and there is absolutely no g-force on your body, just synthetic feedback coming from a pair of motors housed in the wheel. That's it.

 

[unv412]

So I take it may hooker analogy got deleted? Lol.

Seriously though the pad users opinions on physics and feel will never be an opinion i listen to, as i do not use a pad to race FM4. These opinions should just be levied to other pad users as they in no way can tell me how good/bad the understeer modeling is based on "i arrived at a corner way too fast and pushed my joy stick hard left blah blah blah" . Apples with apples right.

Conversly wheel users should not shoot down pad users opinions if they are directed to other pad users only, whilst looking down at them as some second class citizen that couldnt afford a wheel.

Some peoples situations in life dictate pad usage only........the same way my situation in life means xbox + fm4 + fanatec + Veyron, instead of real life Veyron on the Ring !

BTW another comparison that forza wins is in-car that doesn't shake the screen and make you have seizures.

 

[Goshin2568]

Are you still going on about this nonsense? What do you care what a pad user feels in comparison to someone using a wheel? If I want to analyze the simulation aspect of FM4 according to scientific data then I'm going to do it regardless of what the input method is.

Do the variables change? No they don't. Therefore, prone to criticism.

And if you want to pull that "so unlike real life" card, then using a wheel to play a video game is also, at it's fundamental core, just as unrealistic as any other input method. There is no fear involved, there are no g-forces involved, there is no inherent danger whatsoever. You crash, you start over. You turn into a corner at 97 mph and there is absolutely no g-force on your body, just synthetic feedback coming from a pair of motors housed in the wheel. That's it.

Again, this is pad users wanting to feel better about the fact that their experience isn't as realistic. Now I know that might be a little unfair but honestly, you guys are taking it to extremes. Driving a sim with a pad is not realistic.

A wheel, while still not realistic, is so much closer it's not even funny. If a real car was 100% realism, a good wheel would be about 65%, and a pad would be about 2%. It's not even close.

And to answer your first question, no I don't care that much. I'm just baffled when pad users complain about physics, so I posed the question as to why, and I still haven't gotten an answer that has made a lick of sense.

So I take it may hooker analogy got deleted? Lol.

Seriously though the pad users opinions on physics and feel will never be an opinion i listen to, as i do not use a pad to race FM4. These opinions should just be levied to other pad users as they in no way can tell me how good/bad the understeer modeling is based on "i arrived at a corner way too fast and pushed my joy stick hard left blah blah blah" . Apples with apples right.

Conversly wheel users should not shoot down pad users opinions if they are directed to other pad users only, whilst looking down at them as some second class citizen that couldnt afford a wheel.

Some peoples situations in life dictate pad usage only........the same way my situation in life means xbox + fm4 + fanatec + Veyron, instead of real life Veyron on the Ring !

BTW another comparison that forza wins is in-car that doesn't shake the screen and make you have seizures.

👍

EDIT: I'm going to reiterate this again, I promise I'm not bashing or looking down upon pad users. I just don't take a pad users opinion on physics seriously.

The whole time I raced with a pad before I had a wheel, all I was concerned about was fun. I accepted that realism didn't matter when I was controlling the car with my fingers. I didn't give a rat's 🤬 about physics until I got a wheel, because that's what made sense. I now hear nothing but physics discussion from pad users, and merely wondered why it mattered to all of you.

 

[unv412]

Also on whilst on the wheel front, i have to say the plug and play aspects of G27 + gt wins hands down on the crap that is Fanatec + fm.

Whats with all the settings for drift (shouldnt it be doing that natuarally ?) spring and deadzone? No one on this forum has it figured out yet while over at Logitec i can just turn it on and smash out laps of GT or even one of my favorites Live for speed.

I m still trying to get the dead zone right for forza plus the spring ??? maybe for that self-centreing effect like in real life (i know some cars do it better than other due to castor set up but....) or at least as close to GT or LFS.

If anyones got a set up that they think is close let me know!

 

[PzR Crazy]

Also on whilst on the wheel front, i have to say the plug and play aspects of G27 + gt wins hands down on the crap that is Fanatec + fm.

Whats with all the settings for drift (shouldnt it be doing that natuarally ?) spring and deadzone? No one on this forum has it figured out yet while over at Logitec i can just turn it on and smash out laps of GT or even one of my favorites Live for speed.

I m still trying to get the dead zone right for forza plus the spring ??? maybe for that self-centreing effect like in real life (i know some cars do it better than other due to castor set up but....) or at least as close to GT or LFS.

If anyones got a set up that they think is close let me know!

I think your problem is trying to make one wheel match the other, they are different, using different mechanics, different FFB interpretations..

The problem is more about what you are used to.. case in point, I have a Fanatec PWTS and CSR, I had used the PWTS for 18 months solid and was very much dialled in to that wheel.. heavier and more consistent 'spring' etc..
When I first tried the CSR, I was amazed how different it felt and felt it was really poor compared to the PWTS, spending a long time fiddling with the settings to try and emulate a PWTS..

However, I gave up, and just used the wheel, and started tweaking it for my actual preferences of getting the best lap times..

And 4 months on I have to say I now love the wheel, and going back to the PWTS makes that feel slow/heavy and way oversprung etc..

And I absolutely could not go back to a wheel that I can't 'tweak'.. I get fed up games that you can't adjust linearity and other aspects, the adjustability allows me to get consistent steering rates (as close as possible) and general 'feel' such that I'm able to jump between games without having that disjoint experience that requires having a learning period before you are back on top form..

All IMO, I don't think fanatec products are perfect, but they do allow me to tailor them to me..

 

[Scaff]

OK here's an anolgy that might help, as it links to my other hobby:

Real:


'Wheel':

Pad:

Now some may find this an 'odd' analogy, but at the end of the day its not that far out. One of these simulated controllers is 'closer' to real than the other and you are now using the right parts of the body in the right place, but both are still a long way from real.

The whole time I raced with a pad before I had a wheel, all I was concerned about was fun. I accepted that realism didn't matter when I was controlling the car with my fingers. I didn't give a rat's 🤬 about physics until I got a wheel, because that's what made sense. I now hear nothing but physics discussion from pad users, and merely wondered why it mattered to all of you.

The problem here is that you are taking your own experience and transposing it on others as fact.

I find it quite amusing as someone who mainly uses a pad (because a wheel is a pain to drag out and I only have an old MS wheel) to be told that I have no real interest in the physics. The reason why I find this amusing is that my experience with the physics of vehicle dynamics goes back past my days of using a wheel, as its a subject I have taught in the motor industry (theory and practical).

The control mechanism may differ but the physics underneath it doesn't and I could just as well argue (and may actually have a more valid point) that unless you actually understand the real world physics well enough that its doesn't matter what control mechanism, you are using.

 

[unv412]

^please tell me you'd rather the wheel!!!!!lol
still 900 degrees rotation with FFB as a proprietary input to a device will always show up the physics capabilities of a game 895 degrees better than a pad (brake and accelerator triggers aside)
ya get me? As someone who is a schooled so extensively in the behaviour of cars would the wheel give you a more decisive outcome (non inclusive of the in game telemetry.....) and can someone tell me why that drag racing involves so many .432 ending elapse times (game glitch?)

I think your problem is trying to make one wheel match the other, they are different, using different mechanics, different FFB interpretations..

However, I gave up, and just used the wheel, and started tweaking it for my actual preferences of getting the best lap times..

And 4 months on I have to say I now love the wheel, and going back to the PWTS makes that feel slow/heavy and way oversprung etc..

All IMO, I don't think fanatec products are perfect, but they do allow me to tailor them to me..

Dont get me wrong , the "more adjustability" the better i say too....for everything and that way us sim addicts wont whine as much lol. If they just had a defalt setting for 900 degrees full sim and let the game take care of the settings it would be so much easier.

My sob story is i dusted my once a week boys night in at my cousins trying to get some sort of natural feel to the csr.......no racing/proper drinking/socializing....just fanatec frustrations!

i must say what really impresses me is the way that FM4 has the ability to get the looseness/play in the steering off centre of the early muscle (any car from the 60s/70s actually) cars. And then tighten everything up for the modern stuff.

 

[sennafreak]

I'm sorry chaps, but shouldn't the last 2,5 pages here be in the "wheel vs pad" thread?

 

[hennessey86]

Also on whilst on the wheel front, i have to say the plug and play aspects of G27 + gt wins hands down on the crap that is Fanatec + fm.

Whats with all the settings for drift (shouldnt it be doing that natuarally ?) spring and deadzone? No one on this forum has it figured out yet while over at Logitec i can just turn it on and smash out laps of GT or even one of my favorites Live for speed.

I m still trying to get the dead zone right for forza plus the spring ??? maybe for that self-centreing effect like in real life (i know some cars do it better than other due to castor set up but....) or at least as close to GT or LFS.

If anyones got a set up that they think is close let me know!

the spring and damper settings don't work with Forza 4 and as for the deadzone question, I don't under stand what you mean.

 

[unv412]

^explains why all the tweaking amounted to nothing but assumed tiny changes. the deadzone is the initial vagueness to the response of turning the wheel i think, but ill have to test the spring setting if i remembered just made the wheel slow/hard to turn

I'm sorry chaps, but shouldn't the last 2,5 pages here be in the "wheel vs pad" thread?

yes

 

[PzR Crazy]

^explains why all the tweaking amounted to nothing but assumed tiny changes. the deadzone is the initial vagueness to the response of turning the wheel i think, but ill have to test the spring setting if i remembered just made the wheel slow/hard to turn

yes

Firmware 742beta allows DPR and SPR settings in FM4, in fact with SPR on max, it is ridiculously stiff..

However, it can't get over the game code for the FFB which means at speed the spring reduces dramatically, something that whilst can be argued vaguely more 'authentic' (borrowing a term from T10/Playground Games to avoid the word 'simulation') to real life, it is something you notice immediately..

(Beta firmware is available from www.911wheel.de) and is for all wheels, it also adds 'autoclutch' to the wheels, which is very nice indeed!)

 

[shawtyoner]

OK here's an anolgy that might help, as it links to my other hobby:

Real:


'Wheel':

Pad:

Sorry Scaff but I cannot agree with you there. This would be a more realistic comparison. The guitar hero guitar is a glorified game pad and does not simulate a realistic guitar, a wheel however simulates a more realistic driving experience, saying otherwise is comparing apples to oranges.

You are correct mister dog, this does seem more like a pad vs. wheel thread lol.

 

[Scaff]

^please tell me you'd rather the wheel!!!!!lol

I'd still rather use the wheel, however its the nonsense that if you use a pad you don't know/aren't able to discuss/don't care about/don't understand physics that I find patently absurd.

Sorry Scaff but I cannot agree with you there. This would be a more realistic comparison.

Not unless you are claiming that you could fit your steering wheel and pedal in an actual car and they would work 100% fine with zero modifications its not a more realistic comparison.

Rocksmith works with all guitars and the bundled one is an Epiphone Les Paul JR, I could take my Dot pictured above and plug it into Rocksmith and it would be perfectly happy, now unless I can take the steering rack and pedal box from my Alfa and plug it into a sim then your analogy is not more realistic at all.

The guitar hero guitar is a glorified game pad and does not simulate a realistic guitar, a wheel however simulates a more realistic driving experience, saying otherwise is comparing apples to oranges.

You are correct mister dog, this does seem more like a pad vs. wheel thread lol.

You place you fingers on the 'frets' you 'strum' near the bridge, you use the 'tremo' with the correct 'hand'.

Now unless you can show me that the feedback you get from a wheel and the resistance you get from the pedals (and also magic up some feedback via the pedals) is exactly the same as you get from a real wheel/pedals in a car then yes the wheel and pedal combo is a glorified gamepad. The right 'limbs' are in the right place and the range of actions and degree of travel is more realistic than the pad, but neither of them is the same as the real thing.

The fundamental point behind this is that a wheel user is no better placed to tell a pad user that they don't know/aren't able to discuss/don't care about/don't understand physics that a person using a guitar hero/rock band controller is placed to lecture a pad user about timing, strumming patterns, fretboard navigation or musical theory.

The underlying knowledge of the 'real' subject and the persons ability to relate the control interface and resulting actions in a sim to that real world knowledge determines how able one is to know/be able to discuss/ care about/understand physics, not the piece of plastic and metal they have in there hands.

I would quite happily pit myself in a physics discussion with a pad and FM4 against someone with the greatest sim rig on the planet and no idea of real world physics, yet to listen to some here if you don't use a wheel all the time you have no right or ability to discuss physics and some go as far as to say they would dismiss opinion based on this!

 

[shawtyoner]

Yes, in that case then the argument is dead. We all know this is a game, no matter how real the physics, no matter how real the peripherals we use to play said game, it will never be real. I think whats getting lost in translation here is that yes, you can feel and understand the physics using the game pad, I am not denying that at all. But we can't say that driving a virtual car with a gamepad is more realistic than using a wheel.

Just like playing a flight simulator, I'm sure the more realistic experience would be to use a flight stick and pedals for the rudders, as opposed to using a game pad as well. I am sure you can pilot a plane virtually using a gamepad, but the realistic sensation of actually flying a plane goes out the window, just like using a pad for a driving game. When driving an actual car, you aren't just sitting there twiddling your thumbs.

Again, physics do matter for pad users, I actually do not mind playing FM4 with a pad, a lot of the times I do because I do not want to drag out my wheel. However, when I really want to be absorbed in the experience of racing on a track, the wheel is the only way that will work for me.

 

[Scaff]

Yes, in that case then the argument is dead. We all know this is a game, no matter how real the physics, no matter how real the peripherals we use to play said game, it will never be real. I think whats getting lost in translation here is that yes, you can feel and understand the physics using the game pad, I am not denying that at all. But we can't say that driving a virtual car with a gamepad is more realistic than using a wheel.

Just like playing a flight simulator, I'm sure the more realistic experience would be to use a flight stick and pedals for the rudders, as opposed to using a game pad as well. I am sure you can pilot a plane virtually using a gamepad, but the realistic sensation of actually flying a plane goes out the window, just like using a pad for a driving game. When driving an actual car, you aren't just sitting there twiddling your thumbs.

Again, physics do matter for pad users, I actually do not mind playing FM4 with a pad, a lot of the times I do because I do not want to drag out my wheel. However, when I really want to be absorbed in the experience of racing on a track, the wheel is the only way that will work for me.

I don't think you will find a pad user here (either full time or occasional) who would say its as realistic an interface as a wheel and pedal, rather just saying that while better even the best wheel and pedal combos still have limitations and even at the Fanatec price point are still a long way from 'real' (now start getting into sims linked with 7 post shakers and we are talking but that's race team level). However when you then get:

What it boils down to is this: Physics don't matter in a driving game if you aren't driving. And pad users aren't driving.

If you use a pad, and your reason for playing is for fun, than why on God's green earth do you care how the car reacts??? Why not just play whatever game is the most fun? Why do physics matter? And "because I want the car to react realistically" isn't an answer. Why do you want the car to behave realistically? You're in it for the fun, not the realism, right?

I now hear nothing but physics discussion from pad users, and merely wondered why it mattered to all of you.

What I find ironic with the last comment is that physics discussions (between pad and wheel users) had been taking place for months before the member in question had joined FP and years before that over at GT Planet. Physics discussions that have gone into a reasonable degree of depth that are not bound by the controller you use, but by a desire to understand or discuss knowledge one has of vehicle dynamics and physics.

 

[sennafreak]

In the interest of putting this pad vs wheel discussion to bed, or who knows; stur it up for another 4 pages of off topic rambling ;

I'm a pad user, and when i play GT or FM i do get a feel for the physics of the car.

But neither a pad or a wheel user will "feel" the car, as the car is virtual and you are sitting in your damned sofa.

But the way the graphics move, the sound changes, and your hand on the stick or the wheel, combined with a little bit of rumble or feedback will simulate the car shifting its weight, giving you that "feel" of the car.

Wheel users feel it better then pad users sure, but we are both feeling simulated things through a piece of plastic hooked on a electrical wire.

The game's physics does a great job in simulating this, and transmits it either through a pad or a wheel, but that's that.

Conclusion: everyone gets a feel for the game's physics, and yes wheel users have the more realistic experience. But we both have it.

Now who can compare some more GT5 vs Forza4 for me?

 

[t.o.]

Guys I think what Goshin2568 is getting at is if you take a "simulator" at it's primary use and that's to re-create a reasonable facsimile of a real-life experience then using a wheel accomplishes that better than a pad.

If you took a group of gamers who never driven in their life and put one half on a pad for a year and another on a wheel my guess would be the wheel users would be able to get in a real car and have quicker success than those using a pad.

First they'll have the muscle-memory with their arms and legs to pilot an actual car that a pad user wouldn't. They would likely have the "general" feel that would need to be tweaked to real world experience but they would have a base to work with. A pad user would have nothing but the general idea of when to turn. Of course the movement of an actual car would be an unexpected variable the wheel user would have to initially deal with but so would the pad user plus having to deal with all the other variables mentioned above.