Forza 4 VS GT5 (read the first post before you contribute)

[hennessey86]

In the interest of putting this pad vs wheel discussion to bed, or who knows; stur it up for another 4 pages of off topic rambling ;

I'm a pad user, and when i play GT or FM i do get a feel for the physics of the car.

But neither a pad or a wheel user will "feel" the car, as the car is virtual and you are sitting in your damned sofa.

But the way the graphics move, the sound changes, and your hand on the stick or the wheel, combined with a little bit of rumble or feedback will simulate the car shifting its weight, giving you that "feel" of the car.

Wheel users feel it better then pad users sure, but we are both feeling simulated things through a piece of plastic hooked on a electrical wire.

The game's physics does a great job in simulating this, and transmits it either through a pad or a wheel, but that's that.

Conclusion: everyone gets a feel for the game's physics, and yes wheel users have the more realistic experience. But we both have it.

Now who can compare some more GT5 vs Forza4 for me?

are you calling my beloved Fanatec GT2 a piece of plastic, how dare you sir. How very dare you

 

[sennafreak]

are you calling my beloved Fanatec GT2 a piece of plastic, how dare you sir. How very dare you

I challenge you sir! Which is the material it is made of??
A duel at the break of dawn, i will be bringing my pad and you shall bring your wheel!

 

[t.o.]

In the interest of putting this pad vs wheel discussion to bed, or who knows; stur it up for another 4 pages of off topic rambling ;

I'm a pad user, and when i play GT or FM i do get a feel for the physics of the car.

But neither a pad or a wheel user will "feel" the car, as the car is virtual and you are sitting in your damned sofa.

But the way the graphics move, the sound changes, and your hand on the stick or the wheel, combined with a little bit of rumble or feedback will simulate the car shifting its weight, giving you that "feel" of the car.

Wheel users feel it better then pad users sure, but we are both feeling simulated things through a piece of plastic hooked on a electrical wire.

The game's physics does a great job in simulating this, and transmits it either through a pad or a wheel, but that's that.

Conclusion: everyone gets a feel for the game's physics, and yes wheel users have the more realistic experience. But we both have it.

Now who can compare some more GT5 vs Forza4 for me?

I get what you're saying but I have to say your a bit more dismissive of the wheel than should be. Some of the things you say you get through wheel you can get through the pad. I have to disagree, while the pad may give you a "warning" it can't give you that "feel". I use both methods to play FM4 and to be honest I use the pad more than the wheel. The wheel translates things more in an "honest" way than the pad. If the pad had a motorized stick then I can say the pad would be that much closer but it doesn't.

I only know for myself that when using the wheel I can have moments of suspended belief in thinking I'm actually in that car. When using the pad I never had a feeling of "OH @#%$" when I'm about to go into a wall when deeply concentrating in a race, the most I feel is I'm about to lose a quarter and have to start again,lol. When using the wheel and about to face imminent disaster there were moments where I "thought" I was in that car. I've even looked in my rear-view once when screaming down a straight in a race because I hear a cop-car outside my window blip his siren. For a split second I had that "Damn! They got me" feeling. Never got that with the pad, always felt like I'm trying to get to the "next level" when using a pad.

The wheel just translate more and more realistically to the user than a pad. I'm not saying a pad user shouldn't be concerned about physics but seeing as there are buffers at play with the controller some aspect of the physics are lost on a pad user. I can whip around with a pad in a certain car, get on the wheel and whip around in the same car and be like "WTF!!?!?!" as other aspects of the car show themselves that couldn't when using the pad.

 

[Goshin2568]

Guys I think what Goshin2568 is getting at is if you take a "simulator" at it's primary use and that's to re-create a reasonable facsimile of a real-life experience then using a wheel accomplishes that better than a pad.

If you took a group of gamers who never driven in their life and put one half on a pad for a year and another on a wheel my guess would be the wheel users would be able to get in a real car and have quicker success than those using a pad.

First they'll have the muscle-memory with their arms and legs to pilot an actual car that a pad user wouldn't. They would likely have the "general" feel that would need to be tweaked to real world experience but they would have a base to work with. A pad user would have nothing but the general idea of when to turn. Of course the movement of an actual car would be an unexpected variable the wheel user would have to initially deal with but so would the pad user plus having to deal with all the other variables mentioned above.

Thank you! That's exactly what I'm getting at. 👍

And that's the fault with Scaff's analogy, you could teach someone to drive reasonably well to drive with a wheel. You could not teach someone to play guitar with guitar hero.

And I'm not presenting my idea as fact, I am asking why others have a differing opinion.

 

[t.o.]

Thank you! That's exactly what I'm getting at. 👍

And that's the fault with Scaff's analogy, you could teach someone to drive reasonably well to drive with a wheel. You could not teach someone to play guitar with guitar hero.

And I'm not presenting my idea as fact, I am asking why others have a differing opinion.

I think initially both groups would probably suck bad as the concept of driving a real car would be foreign to both but I believe that those using a wheel will show greater, quicker improvement as they would be able to adapt some of what they learned on the wheel versus a pad user who'd be going off nothing.

 

[Goshin2568]

I think initially both groups would probably suck bad as the concept of driving a real car would be foreign to both but I believe that those using a wheel will show greater, quicker improvement as they would be able to adapt some of what they learned on the wheel versus a pad user who'd be going off nothing.

Well, it helps if they have already been driving a car for a while. Driving experience + Sim experience = learning to drive fast pretty quickly. (Speaking from personal experience here)

 

[Scaff]

I think initially both groups would probably suck bad as the concept of driving a real car would be foreign to both but I believe that those using a wheel will show greater, quicker improvement as they would be able to adapt some of what they learned on the wheel versus a pad user who'd be going off nothing.

I've tried and your pretty much spot on.

We used to use sims to try and teach the basics of track car control before getting people in cars and if someone has little to no experience they adapt a little quicker, but not much (in comparison to zero experience) and with young males is actual more of a curse than a benefit as they almost all feel invincible as they can do it virtually and reality brings it home with a big bump.

Thank you! That's exactly what I'm getting at. 👍

And that's the fault with Scaff's analogy, you could teach someone to drive reasonably well to drive with a wheel. You could not teach someone to play guitar with guitar hero.

You can use guitar hero to teach the basics of timing, the requirement to use two hands for differing actions that must co-ordinate and the need to ensure that each of the fretting fingers works independently and must move patterns.

Does it mean that someone who has played GH can play a real guitar? Nope. Does it mean that someone who has driven with just a wheel and pedals can drive a real car? Nope.

Will they adapt a little quicker? Maybe but a lot of other factors are going on here.

And I'm not presenting my idea as fact, I am asking why others have a differing opinion.

You are however totally dismissing the opinion of those who use a pad in regard to discussions of physics, something that is miss-judged, inaccurate and rather arrogant.

Remember you did say:

What it boils down to is this: Physics don't matter in a driving game if you aren't driving. And pad users aren't driving.

If you use a pad, and your reason for playing is for fun, than why on God's green earth do you care how the car reacts??? Why not just play whatever game is the most fun? Why do physics matter? And "because I want the car to react realistically" isn't an answer. Why do you want the car to behave realistically? You're in it for the fun, not the realism, right?

I now hear nothing but physics discussion from pad users, and merely wondered why it mattered to all of you.

You may want to ask some of the pad users what actual experience they have before dismissing what they have to say so easily, you may find a little humble pie is in order.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I've been playing FM4 quite a bit lately. Not all of this is totally relevant to the discussion of GT5 vs FM4, but most of it is. Overall I like the game, but there are a few things that I just do not understand. (All offline play, haven't delved into multiplayer yet)

1: No qualifying. This is extremely frustrating having to constantly start in eighth place and trying to work your way through the slower, but homicidal drivatar opponents. It's nearly impossible to make clean passes when the other drivers absolutely refuse to allow you any room. If the races were longer (I'll get to that) then it wouldn't be too big of a deal, but when you are forced to pass eight cars within just a handful of laps, it can get really frustrating. To compound this issue, the best drivatar (looking at you M.Rossi) always starts in first, so by the time you do get in front of the masses, he is nowhere to be seen.

2. Fuel and Tire consumption. Why is this even in the game? It's absolutely useless offline due to none of the races being long enough.

3. No endurance races. Why? This is a motorsports game and none of the races last more than 10 minutes. I understand a lot of people don't like them, but how hard is it to implement a handful of 1hr-6hr races? Put the fuel and tire consumption to work. The AI is not ever really competitive, but it's still fun to do these races on GT5, why not FM4? The AI might actually put up a fight! Why have an ALMS partnership if the races are a maximum of 10 minutes? I just don't get it.

4. Night racing is a very obvious omission with this generation of racing titles. It's inexcusable. ESPECIALLY considering the very first FM game had night racing!


5. DLC. Car pack after car pack after car pack. Yes Dan, we get it, you're trying to make a game for car lovers. I'd much rather see new racing environments, game modes, and other things. How about some real innovation? FM hasn't innovated anything since the very first game with the livery editor. And even that wasn't really original. TXR3 had something similar 2 years before FM1. I get so sick how they promote the game using buzzwords like "Image Based Lighting," "ALMS," "Top Gear," and "Autovista mode." There is no substance to it.

 

[t.o.]

Well the best example I can use is when I was in the Army. We used simulators to "do things" (can't tell you guys because it's top secret, sorry, if we're still around 30 years from now I can spill the beans. lol) and we had close to a year of training. When in the real world it was quite different than the simulations but we were able to eventually use what we learn to accomplish the mission and got good. But if someone was doing the simulator in a fashion equivalent to using a controller they would have been smoked and for quite a while. While we both would have came in "HUH" it was clear that having the simulation the way I went through it gave a nice big advantage. The other guy just would have been ineffective for quite a while longer.

A guy coming having done neither would be worthless. They'd have no clue to what they were doing at all.

 

[Goshin2568]

I've tried and your pretty much spot on.

We used to use sims to try and teach the basics of track car control before getting people in cars and if someone has little to no experience they adapt a little quicker, but not much (in comparison to zero experience) and with young males is actual more of a curse than a benefit as they almost all feel invincible as they can do it virtually and reality brings it home with a big bump.

My own experiences with this sort of things completely contradict this. Young males feeling invincible is completely irrelevant. They will feel that way with or without sim experience. I would say if A) You have driven a car on the street and are experienced in that, B) You have driven in a sim with a good wheel/pedal set and are experienced in that, and C) You have studied up a bit on theory, than you would most likely be able to get into a car on a track and drive at decent pace pretty quickly, after getting used to g-forces and such.

You can use guitar hero to teach the basics of timing, the requirement to use two hands for differing actions that must co-ordinate and the need to ensure that each of the fretting fingers works independently and must move patterns.

Does it mean that someone who has played GH can play a real guitar? Nope. Does it mean that someone who has driven with just a wheel and pedals can drive a real car? Nope.

Will they adapt a little quicker? Maybe but a lot of other factors are going on here.

Haha I don't understand this point of view at all. A person who knew how to drive with a wheel on a sim would be many many times more prepared than someone who hadn't.

It's just like those virtual surgeries that surgeons do in school, it's not real, it's not exactly like the real thing, but to say that someone who had done many virtual surgeries isn't waaaaaay more prepared to do a real surgery than someone with no experience at all is just foolish.

Driving in a sim teaches you maybe 70% of what you need to know. Muscle memory, acceleration, braking, finding lines, taking a corner at speed, countersteering, trail braking, etc. etc. etc. The list goes on and on all the things you can learn in a sim and apply in the real world.

You are however totally dismissing the opinion of those who use a pad in regard to discussions of physics, something that is miss-judged, inaccurate and rather arrogant.

Remember you did say:







You may want to ask some of the pad users what actual experience they have before dismissing what they have to say so easily, you may find a little humble pie is in order.

Ok, I'll retract my statement a little. Listening to a pad users opinions on physics in general is ok. What I'm saying, is I will not listen to a pad users personal experiences with the physics of a certain sim, because their experience is so much different than mine.

 

[Scaff]

My own experiences with this sort of things completely contradict this. Young males feeling invincible is completely irrelevant. They will feel that way with or without sim experience. I would say if A) You have driven a car on the street and are experienced in that, B) You have driven in a sim with a good wheel/pedal set and are experienced in that, and C) You have studied up a bit on theory, than you would most likely be able to get into a car on a track and drive at decent pace pretty quickly, after getting used to g-forces and such.

I don't believe I have disputed that at all, my point is not that a wheel/pedal set-up is worse or on par with a pad, simply that its neither is the real thing and that neither is a reason to dismiss anyone's feedback, opinion or experience with regard to physics.

Haha I don't understand this point of view at all. A person who knew how to drive with a wheel on a sim would be many many times more prepared than someone who hadn't.

Have I said otherwise? No.

It's just like those virtual surgeries that surgeons do in school, it's not real, it's not exactly like the real thing, but to say that someone who had done many virtual surgeries isn't waaaaaay more prepared to do a real surgery than someone with no experience at all is just foolish.

Again have I said otherwise?

Driving in a sim teaches you maybe 70% of what you need to know. Muscle memory, acceleration, braking, finding lines, taking a corner at speed, countersteering, trail braking, etc. etc. etc. The list goes on and on all the things you can learn in a sim and apply in the real world.

Yes it does teach you the basics of these, however 70% is a massive overestimate, and that's very much based on my own experience.

As an example, heel and toe on a sim and transferring it to the real world you may transfer around 20% at most. The totally different brake pressure, pedal layouts and heights and clutch bite mean you are carrying across a minimal amount. Its better than starting from scratch, but its certainly not 70% at all.

Ok, I'll retract my statement a little. Listening to a pad users opinions on physics in general is ok. What I'm saying, is I will not listen to a pad users personal experiences with the physics of a certain sim, because their experience is so much different than mine.

Once again a rather strange statement to make given that its only the input method that changes, the vehicle in a given sim is still going to lose grip at the same slip angle and/or percentage.

Your approach I can assure you will see you rather sidelined in a lot of conversations here if you insist in sticking to it, I take it that you will also be happy for others to dismiss your opinion of the relation to a sim if you have no real world experience to compare it to? After all that's arguably a lot more important than the control method you use on something that isn't real.

How about instead you listen to all opinions and thoughts on a subject and take into account the control method used and the member making its experience, rather than just dismissing it out of hand.

As an example its doesn't matter if Wolfe or myself use a pad or not, when it comes to the 'ring we both have experience of exactly what those curbs feel like. When it comes to how a car with full active aero reacts the fact I've driven a Radical is far more important to the discussion than the use of a pad or a wheel in the simulated version.

You can dismiss others opinions out of hand if you wish, but you may well find you miss out on a lot of valuable and informative knowledge.

 

[Patrick]

2. Fuel and Tire consumption. Why is this even in the game? It's absolutely useless offline due to none of the races being long enough.

3. No endurance races. Why? This is a motorsports game and none of the races last more than 10 minutes. I understand a lot of people don't like them, but how hard is it to implement a handful of 1hr-6hr races? Put the fuel and tire consumption to work. The AI is not ever really competitive, but it's still fun to do these races on GT5, why not FM4? The AI might actually put up a fight! Why have an ALMS partnership if the races are a maximum of 10 minutes? I just don't get it.

In regards to both of those. Go to multiplayer, choose private race and you can add up to 11 AI's and choose what cars they drive. You can set up a timed multi class or regular race up to 4 hours and a multi class lap race or regular lap race up to, I believe, 50 laps.

 

[sennafreak]

I get what you're saying but I have to say your a bit more dismissive of the wheel than should be. Some of the things you say you get through wheel you can get through the pad. I have to disagree, while the pad may give you a "warning" it can't give you that "feel". I use both methods to play FM4 and to be honest I use the pad more than the wheel. The wheel translates things more in an "honest" way than the pad. If the pad had a motorized stick then I can say the pad would be that much closer but it doesn't.

I only know for myself that when using the wheel I can have moments of suspended belief in thinking I'm actually in that car. When using the pad I never had a feeling of "OH @#%$" when I'm about to go into a wall when deeply concentrating in a race, the most I feel is I'm about to lose a quarter and have to start again,lol. When using the wheel and about to face imminent disaster there were moments where I "thought" I was in that car. I've even looked in my rear-view once when screaming down a straight in a race because I hear a cop-car outside my window blip his siren. For a split second I had that "Damn! They got me" feeling. Never got that with the pad, always felt like I'm trying to get to the "next level" when using a pad.

The wheel just translate more and more realistically to the user than a pad. I'm not saying a pad user shouldn't be concerned about physics but seeing as there are buffers at play with the controller some aspect of the physics are lost on a pad user. I can whip around with a pad in a certain car, get on the wheel and whip around in the same car and be like "WTF!!?!?!" as other aspects of the car show themselves that couldn't when using the pad.

Agreed, i'm thinking of buying myself a wheel and a nice stand for it that folds also (they make that nowadays), and it will enhance the experience quite a lot.

Pad user or wheel users, let's be honest we all enjoy the game and get feeling for the physics. So it's not really worth discussing it for hours on ends.

Wheels are better and give you more feel, and pad users get a bit of the satisfaction in a lesser extent. I doubt i will be distracted by a cop car when i'm hotlapping the nur tough, haha or i must be very stoned at that moment

 

[Goshin2568]

The wheel just translate more and more realistically to the user than a pad. I'm not saying a pad user shouldn't be concerned about physics but seeing as there are buffers at play with the controller some aspect of the physics are lost on a pad user. I can whip around with a pad in a certain car, get on the wheel and whip around in the same car and be like "WTF!!?!?!" as other aspects of the car show themselves that couldn't when using the pad.

Seriously though the pad users opinions on physics and feel will never be an opinion i listen to, as i do not use a pad to race FM4. These opinions should just be levied to other pad users as they in no way can tell me how good/bad the understeer modeling is based on "i arrived at a corner way too fast and pushed my joy stick hard left blah blah blah" . Apples with apples right.

This sums up quite nicely why I'm hesitant to listen to a pad users opinion on physics based on their experience with the sim with a pad.

 

[sennafreak]

This sums up quite nicely why I'm hesitant to listen to a pad users opinion on physics based on their experience with the sim with a pad.

Someone with a pad must have beaten you online already, that means that at that moment he was more in touch with the car than you.

If only wheel users would get a true feel for the physics of the car, that would never happen. I got into the top 5000 frequently in this years GT academy with my dualshock, not spending more than half an hour on a single trial, and i doubt that everyone in front of me had wheels only.

Sure you shave off a second or two per lap with a wheel, but still.

 

[shawtyoner]

In regards to both of those. Go to multiplayer, choose private race and you can add up to 11 AI's and choose what cars they drive. You can set up a timed multi class or regular race up to 4 hours and a multi class lap race or regular lap race up to, I believe, 50 laps.

It is quite annoying that something like this is not included in single player mode, but at least there is a way around it, given you have a live account. Both games desperately need this feature. Over the weekend, I had the urge to run a race at Le Mans due to watching the 24 hrs, I chose the new 20ll ALMS Vette, and they put me up against Zondas, A Chevy Stock car, and all other ridiculous choices instead of the more obvious ALMS BMW M3s, 458 Italias and Jags. Utterly annoying, something that i hope is resolved in the next Forza and GT.

 

[Scaff]

This sums up quite nicely why I'm hesitant to listen to a pad users opinion on physics based on their experience with the sim with a pad.

Why?

Does the control device used cause the slip angle and slip percentage at the point of traction loss to change?

Does FM4 use a totally different physics engine when a pad is used compared to a wheel?

Does one cause the user to innately have a better understanding of real world physics?

One of the members you have just agreed with in regard to this has already in this thread stated that the very real changes in Self Aligning Torque is a 'Problem' with FM4s physics and steering model. Explain to me exactly how that lack of knowledge of real world physics from a wheel user translates to dismissing pad users understanding and observation of physics in FM4? Particularly given that it was someone who often uses a pad that pointed out and explained the error in understanding?

 

[unv412]

Scaff you will find the wheel as a control device allows for finer/more precise inputs to achieve said slip angles which innately gives you a better understanding of real world physics.

Real world physics are gained as you said from the real world (i too have lapped the ring albeit in a rental E320 six speed Merc with the wife recording me ) and then compared against our beloved games as a basis to determine how close they come to the real thing. I didn't use a pad in the real laps of the ring so I cannot give an opinion on fm4, I did however use a wheel/shifter/pedals......

Mythbusters have driven many cars via remote control pads not dissimilar to a dpad and struggled....I'm willing to bet most new cars that have electric steering as a replacement use tech not unlike the stuff used in game wheels would drive closer to the real thing.

Ultimately my personal experience has proven my cousin who (never squealled tires of driven spiritedly) had never been on a track in or never driven the particular car at said track before, managed to ser a lap within 0.6 of mine in the dry.......owing to the skills aquired racing Lfs with a "wheel" let alone drifting in the wet on the same day. Many hours were spent on lfs but all the coaching on how to hold the wheel properly and the inputs to control understeer/oversteer that are required payed off. There is a lap 5 vid on YouTube " wakefield wet vas" and my cocky opening lap in a circuit I have never driven wet in a car I've never driven "wakefield wet burnz". Couldn't never done that training with a controller.

 

[Wolfe]

I'm gonna take a step back to when I was last here, because I think it would be most helpful to answer the post Goshin2568 addressed to me. Hopefully he'll get an answer that satisfies him.

The ACTION has to come before the REACTION. How on earth do you know the REACTION is realistic if the way you got the REACTION is so different?

Because I drive a car in real life; sometimes irresponsibly, to be honest. Because I've spent years playing (better) sims with a wheel and honing my skills. Because I have enough experience playing sims that I can analyze a car's behavior based on visuals and audio alone -- suspension movement, angular momentum, tire noise, changes in RPM, etc. Because I've spent hours discussing this stuff with Scaff and other GTPlanet members, helping to sort out the misconceptions/flaws from the realities (and like he said, we didn't care how you played the game).

Yes, I have experience beyond playing with a gamepad. Yes, someone who has never done anything except play console games with a gamepad would probably be worse off than me on a real track. But you wanted to know why a gamepad user would be concerned with physics. I'm a gamepad user, and I care about physics.

If you use a pad, and your reason for playing is for fun, than why on God's green earth do you care how the car reacts??? Why not just play whatever game is the most fun? Why do physics matter? And "because I want the car to react realistically" isn't an answer. Why do you want the car to behave realistically? You're in it for the fun, not the realism, right?

I think realism is fun.

I enjoy arcade racing games too, but I really enjoy realistic physics. There are no artificial limitations, no frustratingly unrealistic quirks, no ridiculous exploits...or at least fewer of those things.

I know what to expect of each car, and what they should be capable of. I know when I've made a mistake, what it was, and how to do better. I generally know what the tires are capable of. I know that when I succeed, I've done it on my own, instead of simply gunning it down every straight, drifting corners on rails with generic inputs, and hoping those rails don't carry me into an obstacle because I'm helpless to truly affect my course (I'm looking at you, NFS: Hot Pursuit).

In some respects, Forza 4 is not my type of game. I don't particularly like driving racecars, especially modern ones. I prefer the open road to the confines of a track. I don't like fiddling with tuning settings. I'd rather drive a stock car than a heavily modified one. Most of my virtual cars are a solid color. I don't even have Xbox Live Gold, and my 360 spends over 95% of its time disconnected from the internet.

I play Forza 4 for the physics. It's not perfect, but it's pretty realistic, and I know that because I have experience. My Logitech wheel is incompatible, but I don't care and play with a gamepad because it's fun.

 

[Goshin2568]

Why?

Does the control device used cause the slip angle and slip percentage at the point of traction loss to change?

Does FM4 use a totally different physics engine when a pad is used compared to a wheel?

Does one cause the user to innately have a better understanding of real world physics?

One of the members you have just agreed with in regard to this has already in this thread stated that the very real changes in Self Aligning Torque is a 'Problem' with FM4s physics and steering model. Explain to me exactly how that lack of knowledge of real world physics from a wheel user translates to dismissing pad users understanding and observation of physics in FM4? Particularly given that it was someone who often uses a pad that pointed out and explained the error in understanding?

Ok, here's how I'm going to say this, and this is probably caused by a difference in the way we do things. The way I understand physics is by feel. I know that when I do certain things with my hands and feet, a certain action will result from that. If you dissect it scientifically, than no, the input device doesn't have an effect on the physics. But they do have an effect on the way the person controlling feels the physics, making it useless for me personally. If it's not that way for anyone else, fine I'm wrong.

Scaff you will find the wheel as a control device allows for finer/more precise inputs to achieve said slip angles which innately gives you a better understanding of real world physics.

Real world physics are gained as you said from the real world (i too have lapped the ring albeit in a rental E320 six speed Merc with the wife recording me ) and then compared against our beloved games as a basis to determine how close they come to the real thing. I didn't use a pad in the real laps of the ring so I cannot give an opinion on fm4, I did however use a wheel/shifter/pedals......

Mythbusters have driven many cars via remote control pads not dissimilar to a dpad and struggled....I'm willing to bet most new cars that have electric steering as a replacement use tech not unlike the stuff used in game wheels would drive closer to the real thing.

Ultimately my personal experience has proven my cousin who (never squealled tires of driven spiritedly) had never been on a track in or never driven the particular car at said track before, managed to ser a lap within 0.6 of mine in the dry.......owing to the skills aquired racing Lfs with a "wheel" let alone drifting in the wet on the same day. Many hours were spent on lfs but all the coaching on how to hold the wheel properly and the inputs to control understeer/oversteer that are required payed off. There is a lap 5 vid on YouTube " wakefield wet vas" and my cocky opening lap in a circuit I have never driven wet in a car I've never driven "wakefield wet burnz". Couldn't never done that training with a controller.

👍

I'm gonna take a step back to when I was last here, because I think it would be most helpful to answer the post Goshin2568 addressed to me. Hopefully he'll get an answer that satisfies him.

Because I drive a car in real life; sometimes irresponsibly, to be honest. Because I've spent years playing (better) sims with a wheel and honing my skills. Because I have enough experience playing sims that I can analyze a car's behavior based on visuals and audio alone -- suspension movement, angular momentum, tire noise, changes in RPM, etc. Because I've spent hours discussing this stuff with Scaff and other GTPlanet members, helping to sort out the misconceptions/flaws from the realities (and like he said, we didn't care how you played the game).

Yes, I have experience beyond playing with a gamepad. Yes, someone who has never done anything except play console games with a gamepad would probably be worse off than me on a real track. But you wanted to know why a gamepad user would be concerned with physics. I'm a gamepad user, and I care about physics.


I think realism is fun.

I enjoy arcade racing games too, but I really enjoy realistic physics. There are no artificial limitations, no frustratingly unrealistic quirks, no ridiculous exploits...or at least fewer of those things.

I know what to expect of each car, and what they should be capable of. I know when I've made a mistake, what it was, and how to do better. I generally know what the tires are capable of. I know that when I succeed, I've done it on my own, instead of simply gunning it down every straight, drifting corners on rails with generic inputs, and hoping those rails don't carry me into an obstacle because I'm helpless to truly affect my course (I'm looking at you, NFS: Hot Pursuit).

In some respects, Forza 4 is not my type of game. I don't particularly like driving racecars, especially modern ones. I prefer the open road to the confines of a track. I don't like fiddling with tuning settings. I'd rather drive a stock car than a heavily modified one. Most of my virtual cars are a solid color. I don't even have Xbox Live Gold, and my 360 spends over 95% of its time disconnected from the internet.

I play Forza 4 for the physics. It's not perfect, but it's pretty realistic, and I know that because I have experience. My Logitech wheel is incompatible, but I don't care and play with a gamepad because it's fun.

Again, I'm going to eat my slice of humble pie and say ok. I don't understand why on earth you would ever play anything with a pad if you like realism, but if that's what floats your boat than ok.

 

[saskman1950]

67 pages later and it seems that the original thread is lost.

 

[Wolfe]

^ Not completely. Physics are an integral part of comparing these two games, and it helps if we're all on the same page regarding how to assess them. Or as close as possible.

Not to mention, plenty of the differences between the games are so stark that it's inevitable to end up talking about minutiae. Like FFB engine rumble effects, whether or not the Prius is an automotive icon, which game has more detail in the headlights...

Again, I'm going to eat my slice of humble pie and say ok. I don't understand why on earth you would ever play anything with a pad if you like realism, but if that's what floats your boat than ok.

One more shot: I'm essentially just playing a videogame, like any other. It just happens to be a racing game with realistic physics. Because I'm a car enthusiast and sim racer I can handle those physics, and I enjoy them. And like Scaff, I understand physics in a more "abstract" sense than you do (I guess), so the experience doesn't change dramatically between wheel and gamepad. Like I said before, it's pretty much convenience and reward. Live for Speed on my desktop is convenient and rewarding. Console games on the TV are not.

Anyway, don't worry about it. I enjoyed trying to solve your dilemma. 👍

 

[hennessey86]

I challenge you sir! Which is the material it is made of??
A duel at the break of dawn, i will be bringing my pad and you shall bring your wheel!

............................................................plastic......bows his head in shame

 

[Scaff]

Scaff you will find the wheel as a control device allows for finer/more precise inputs to achieve said slip angles which innately gives you a better understanding of real world physics.

Real world physics are gained as you said from the real world (i too have lapped the ring albeit in a rental E320 six speed Merc with the wife recording me ) and then compared against our beloved games as a basis to determine how close they come to the real thing. I didn't use a pad in the real laps of the ring so I cannot give an opinion on fm4, I did however use a wheel/shifter/pedals......

Once again I've not disputed that wheel/pedals are not a better control interface, I know they are - I use both. What I have and will dispute is that someone is not able to still feel and understand the physics model because they use a pad. The information the pad is giving you may be a lot less granular than a wheel/pedals and for some the relationship between input and action a lot more straightforward to see, but neither of those are reasons to dismiss pads users ability to feel and understand the physics engine.

On a related point I have been doing a little testing with regard to track surface and its effect on the car, and while this is limited to one car (all I had time with last night) it does clearly show that it is present.

I used a Corvette Racing ZR-1 at Le Mans (why not after all it is topical) and on any of the long straights you can feel the transition of the surface bumps from low speed suspension movement as the car visibly moves but its not felt through the steering, through to higher speed suspension travel as the car increases speed at which point it can be felt through the steering as well as being seen visually. Once the car is at it's V-max the steering is twitching but its not being deflected (nor should it be on a car of this type) as long as you don't try and steer. However even small steering inputs cause the track surface and the high speed suspension travel to have an effect on steering response.

Over the larger rumble strips on the track its also quite possible for either the front or the rear of the car to get unbalanced from the force, causing the steering correct you mentioned to be required.

In-car 50% speed - rear deflection causing steering correction to be needed


Trackside view


So it would appear that FM4 does simulate this, we have no way of knowing exactly how accurate it is, but certainly it feels 'right' and is certainly present.

Mythbusters have driven many cars via remote control pads not dissimilar to a dpad and struggled....I'm willing to bet most new cars that have electric steering as a replacement use tech not unlike the stuff used in game wheels would drive closer to the real thing.

I think you may be getting this confused with electric power steering, as steer by wire has yet to be seen in any meaningful way in passenger cars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive_by_wire

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_steering#Electric_systems

I think realism is fun.

Ditto

Ok, here's how I'm going to say this, and this is probably caused by a difference in the way we do things. The way I understand physics is by feel. I know that when I do certain things with my hands and feet, a certain action will result from that. If you dissect it scientifically, than no, the input device doesn't have an effect on the physics. But they do have an effect on the way the person controlling feels the physics, making it useless for me personally. If it's not that way for anyone else, fine I'm wrong.

That's exactly the point we have been trying to make.

Simply because a particular interface doesn't work for yourself in regard to getting to grips with the physics doesn't mean the same applies for all.

I liken it to driving an Audi (stay with me on this). I can't stand the damn things as I find the steering to be almost totally devoid of feel and as a result am never happy with getting the limit out of them (and I know I am not alone in this regard), however I have many colleagues and friends who are able to work past that. Now I would never dismiss a fast Audi as being a capable car, simply that I'm far more comfortable with a BMW or Merc as I find they communicate more with me.

Again, I'm going to eat my slice of humble pie and say ok. I don't understand why on earth you would ever play anything with a pad if you like realism, but if that's what floats your boat than ok.

I don't personally see how a wheel/pedals set-up is that much more of a leap forward and as a result can and am able to see past it. At the end of the day both are artificial routes to the same end.

Some don't see it that way, I do, what I would never do is dismiss the opinion of others simply because of that.

 

[Goshin2568]

^ Not completely. Physics are an integral part of comparing these two games, and it helps if we're all on the same page regarding how to assess them. Or as close as possible.

Not to mention, plenty of the differences between the games are so stark that it's inevitable to end up talking about minutiae. Like FFB engine rumble effects, whether or not the Prius is an automotive icon, which game has more detail in the headlights...

One more shot: I'm essentially just playing a videogame, like any other. It just happens to be a racing game with realistic physics. Because I'm a car enthusiast and sim racer I can handle those physics, and I enjoy them. And like Scaff, I understand physics in a more "abstract" sense than you do (I guess), so the experience doesn't change dramatically between wheel and gamepad. Like I said before, it's pretty much convenience and reward. Live for Speed on my desktop is convenient and rewarding. Console games on the TV are not.

Anyway, don't worry about it. I enjoyed trying to solve your dilemma. 👍

Ok, I'm going to try one more time to get you to understand why I'm so dang confused hahaha.

Imagine your hobby is playing piano (racing cars). It might be fun to play on one of those kind of mini piano's they make for kids, because while they don't sound exactly like a real piano, you sort of feel at home playing them because your fingers are in the same places, and you a familiar with the setup (crappy sim with a wheel). You could also download one of those iPhone piano apps, but you wouldn't like it much because although it sounds like a piano, it's absolutely nothing like actually playing one. I mean, your only using one finger! (Good sim with a pad). Of course the best option is to get a keyboard, because it feels and sounds like the real thing. (Good sim with a wheel).

Now imagine you go to a forum and all these people, who supposedly are piano playing fans, are discussing which of their iPhone apps sounds most like a real piano.

Can you see my confusion? If you are piano playing fans, what are you doing with the iPhone app anyway? It's not anything like playing piano!


Hopefully that analogy made sense. I put alot of thought into it haha, and I think everything checks out pretty well...

I don't personally see how a wheel/pedals set-up is that much more of a leap forward and as a result can and am able to see past it. At the end of the day both are artificial routes to the same end.

Some don't see it that way, I do, what I would never do is dismiss the opinion of others simply because of that.

I am beyond frustrated here. I feel like you aren't even giving a real answer here and you are just making stuff up. Not a leap forward? What?

The wheel and pedals are the most important part of the whole entire thing.

Let me ask you this. What about driving do you enjoy? What makes it fun for you?

For me, and I suspect 90% of every other car person on the entire face of the earth, is the interaction between man and machine. Turning the wheel and moving the pedals is why driving is fun! Catching the slide, modulating the gas, all are the things that make driving fun for me. A pad takes every single one of those things away. Is it really that different for you?

 

[hennessey86]

Ok, I'm going to try one more time to get you to understand why I'm so dang confused hahaha.

Imagine your hobby is playing piano (racing cars). It might be fun to play on one of those kind of mini piano's they make for kids, because while they don't sound exactly like a real piano, you sort of feel at home playing them because your fingers are in the same places, and you a familiar with the setup (crappy sim with a wheel). You could also download one of those iPhone piano apps, but you wouldn't like it much because although it sounds like a piano, it's absolutely nothing like actually playing one. I mean, your only using one finger! (Good sim with a pad). Of course the best option is to get a keyboard, because it feels and sounds like the real thing. (Good sim with a wheel).

Now imagine you go to a forum and all these people, who supposedly are piano playing fans, are discussing which of their iPhone apps sounds most like a real piano.

Can you see my confusion? If you are piano playing fans, what are you doing with the iPhone app anyway? It's not anything like playing piano!


Hopefully that analogy made sense. I put alot of thought into it haha, and I think everything checks out pretty well...





I am beyond frustrated here. I feel like you aren't even giving a real answer here and you are just making stuff up. Not a leap forward? What?

The wheel and pedals are the most important part of the whole entire thing.

Let me ask you this. What about driving do you enjoy? What makes it fun for you?

For me, and I suspect 90% of every other car person on the entire face of the earth, is the interaction between man and machine. Turning the wheel and moving the pedals is why driving is fun! Catching the slide, modulating the gas, all are the things that make driving fun for me. A pad takes every single one of those things away. Is it really that different for you?

I get what your saying, I love my wheel and refuse to play Forza or any other driving game with a pad. The way I see it is the reason I spent a small fortune on a wheel, pedals and shifter set is to get the most realistic experience possible. I am not saying playing with a wheel is true to life because it isn't, but its far far closer to the real thing that playing with a pad. I don't have a problem with pad users, in fact I race with some very very good pad users who look like they are using a wheel to be honest with how smooth they are. I also get the pad users side to the story because I played Forza 1 2 and 3 with a pad( got a wheel about 6 months after 3 came out) and you can judge the physics pretty well but Forza has far to many hidden aids while using a pad for my liking. Just look at the telemetry while driving with a pad and you will notice the wheel on the left doing things you are not doing on the pad. Any way can we get this discussion back on track because GT academy 2012 has hit the nail on the head as far as I am concerned in showing up all the major flaws with GT5's so called realistic physics.

 

[unv412]

what the last 2 posters said goes for me to. Judging physics on a wheel compared to a pad are always going to be different (apples and oranges)......full stop. Now more about the GT academy flaws thingy......

 

[Scaff]

Let me ask you this. What about driving do you enjoy? What makes it fun for you?

For me, and I suspect 90% of every other car person on the entire face of the earth, is the interaction between man and machine. Turning the wheel and moving the pedals is why driving is fun! Catching the slide, modulating the gas, all are the things that make driving fun for me. A pad takes every single one of those things away. Is it really that different for you?

That depends entirely if its a real car or a simulated one.

If its a simulated one then yes a wheel is preferable, but its certainly not a huge dealbreaker in a simulated environment if I have to use a pad and no in a simulated environment using a pad doesn't take every single one of those things away.

You are still modulating a throttle and brake, you are still catching a slide.

Let me put it another way. I used to know a guy who regularly took part in track days, he had no use of his legs so his car was modified with a hand activated clutch, brake and throttle. As a result he was not using his feet to control any of this and the throw range of these was significantly shorter than any pedal I have come across. Was he not driving or interacting with the car?

A number of modern cars have button operated gear changes (as in not even paddles), these act far closer to what you find on a pad that anything on a wheel/pedal set-up. Are they not driving?

This is dragging on because, to be blunt, you seem to not understand that simply because others have a different view when it comes to a sim we are still capable of enjoying the simulation and understanding the physics.

 

[unv412]

This is dragging on because, to be blunt, you seem to not understand that simply because others have a different view when it comes to a sim we are still capable of enjoying the simulation and understanding the physics.

like i said wheel guys will have a different assessment of physics to pad guys and vice versa, neither should have to pander nor take offence to the others views, its just that there different.....this is the internets after all.lol

Still no one made a reply about me not liking the american bastardization of side repeater lights and 5mph bumpers on euro cars in Forza?????

 

[PzR Crazy]

what the last 2 posters said goes for me to. Judging physics on a wheel compared to a pad are always going to be different (apples and oranges)......full stop. Now more about the GT academy flaws thingy......

GT Academy flaws?

I'd like to hear more on this, I've been doing it that last couple of days (Yes, I know late to the party), and not enjoying the Motegi TT at all, I seem quite sensitive to the lack of tyre feedback through FFB, and that numbness makes me get bored after a period of time..

But I have noticed some aspects of the handling that don't sit right with me, i.e. following some top ghosts, they go quicker in certain situations and my immediate reaction is something looks not quite right between lateral and tractive grip, but that might be my misunderstanding of how things should be..

For example, the left hander (Turn 3 I think, after the tunnel) they carry an insane amount of speed into the corner ad change direction out of the corner in a way that seems to defy physics, but that could all be my lack of skill (Still struggling around 1:32.7xx)