Forza 4 VS GT5 (read the first post before you contribute)

[VXR]

I haven't once span a car in GT5 from getting it wrong, so it surprised me to lose a 4WD Audi in FM4 when I went back to it, just because I'd become used to the former.

It highlighted pretty quickly just how much Forza had moved the game on with 4. Even Horizon will bite you.

 

[cuco33]

From FM3 to FM4? yes. Tell me other brand new game changing feature or a new FM4 innovation more promoted than Kinect.

How about improved physics with better tire model and a normal vs simulation driving model? More car selection? More tracks including Top Gear track and many layouts including a Reasonably Priced Car (Kia C'eed) and starting a lap from a standstill like the real show? How about rivals mode? Multi-class racing? AutoX modes? The improved visuals and lighting model, including active aero in many cars? How about more cars on track both online and offline? Better overall online with more options? Car club and club car sharing functionality? High rez photo mode? Some tracks with different time of day setting? What about vastly more steering wheel options for FM4 than what we had for FM3? Very limited but pretty awesome AutoVista mode?

That's not even discussing Kinect functionality which isn't all magical air guitar style driving as it has a core sim feature that works better than PSeye/GT5 implementation = head tracking.

FM4 in every way is better than FM3. Many of FM3 wasn't broken and carried into FM4 but T10 touched up, improved and tweaked things while adding new stuff to make FM4 the superior game by far.

Try playing the series first before making bold statements or just continued to your preferred platform/franchise and don't speak of Forza please.

That comment was for FM3 and language translation apart even T10 himself have used that as an excuse to promote their brand new FM4.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-06-17-forza-4-preview


http://forzamotorsport.net/en-us/underthehood3/

Marketing PR speak is marketing PR speak. You take great offense to Greenwalt's arrogance for definitive talk and baton passing but have no problem with Yamauchi/PD claiming Forza isn't a sim and slapping 'the real driving simulator' on their game case and 'the standard' on their website.

Considering his habit of disappearing when asked to explain himself (like this), and how often he mentions FM3 and FM4 interchangeably, I doubt it.

I'm sure he'll somehow disappear for a few weeks again

 

[Scaff]

Did someone ask you to back up your "facts" again?

That may have been me.

That comment was for FM3 and language translation apart even T10 himself have used that as an excuse to promote their brand new FM4.

That makes no sense at all.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-06-17-forza-4-preview

Why did you not post that quote in full?

"We don't want to go all arcade, but Forza has always been, to be frank, pretty sterile," acknowledges Knowles. "We're taking the gloves off a little bit and we're letting the cars speak a little louder."

So now acknowledging that you have to work to move the series in a more realistic direction and then doing it is a bad thing?

Odd that you failed to quote this part as well, given that it relevant to the discussion at hand:

Pedestrian as it may seem from the outside, Forza 4 represents a comprehensive shake-up for a series that's reached a turning point. With Gran Turismo having its momentum sapped - critically, at least - Turn 10 has moved out of that particular shadow. With the focus now seemingly no longer on its rival racer, Forza's attention has turned to itself, and the result looks to be a better, smarter game that's less sterile and much more alive. Surely that's something worth getting excited about.

http://forzamotorsport.net/en-us/underthehood3/

And did they carry that over to FM4? No. So your point is?

Maybe this is why you didn't want to use the one from FM4 as a source:

Steering:
For Forza 4, we changed the steering model in three major ways. First, we spent time watching how quickly real-world drivers (both pros and amateurs) tend to rotate the steering wheel as they turn-in, correct, and countersteer. This led to a change in the steering rate for Forza 4. We haven’t found that this change is really noticeable, but we know it’s more accurate—especially when coupled with our second change.

Second, we reevaluated our max steering angles and the system that creates them per car. We were able to use our researched curb-to-curb turning radius in combination with our new tire data (per compound peak slip angle) and other researched parameters, such as track width and wheelbase to reverse engineer each car’s max steering angle. We already had this data researched for some cars, but not for all of them. So we filled in the research gaps. In Forza 4, lock-to-lock steering is far more accurate for every car in the game.

Finally, we added the “simulation steering” option. This option removes all of the controller aides. There were very few of these aides on the wheel controller, but there were several on the console controller. With these aides removed, you will no longer get help finding the right counter-steering angle. If you over-countersteer (meaning you overcorrect by steering into the angle of the slide), the wheels do as commanded. This usually results in a wicked tank-slapper. Also, initial turn-in is direct and linear. This can feel very twitchy. When you command the game to go lock to lock-to-lock, it assumes you mean it and lets you live with the consequences.

Source - http://forzamotorsport.net/en-GB/news/underthehood2

 

[Speedster911]

Great responses guys! Really enjoyed reading your opinions and thoughts, particularly page 123!

Dan and his team have innovated all they possibly could with FM4. New hardware will bring new possibilities and innovation no doubt. I know he can come off as rather full of himself at times, but I sort of agree with his comments: PD passing on the baton to T10 for now; it's like those guys are not even trying anymore. Related news: GT6 is going to be a current gen AND next gen title. Hmm..makes one wonder...

Scaff, I really appreciate how logical and relevant your points are to the discussion, and fellas, it has nothing to do with love or hate of either games! And don't pay heed to that G129 guy; probably 15 years old and still trying to push past grade 8.

Anybody's who's driven or owned high powered cars IRL (think 500 HP+), and pushed them to the limit.. knows exactly where FM stands, and where GT stands. I was a former GT lover myself, but FM4 just stole the show, period.

And anybody who plans on smashing FM4 in future: please o please, I implore you to take your high powered car or rent one, and push it over the edge at your nearest race track. Then apply the same techniques to Forza. I'm afraid I don't have the time or energy to post more informative and logical responses, complete with links, like Scaff does for instance, but this is not based on personal opinion.. but cold facts.

A Sony will generally always be better than an LG...just saying.

 

[Scaff]

And don't pay heed to that G129 guy; probably 15 years old and still trying to push past grade 8.

I did think that I had made it quite clear that is is not OK to attack other members!

Please make sure in future that you argue to point and not attack the person.

 

[Speedster911]

Okie dokie! *salutes*

 

[shved111]

noticed some strange behavior Porsche 911. I understand that the engine behind the speed is high (240kmch) And there are bumps on the road, but the front wheels come off the road, the car loses control.I do not think that in reality, this happens.Such a feature has been seen on the GT2, 1995, and the 2007 911 GT3 RS, as well as on the 911 CS car is not upgraded, setting the standard

 

[Scaff]

noticed some strange behavior Porsche 911. I understand that the engine behind the speed is high (240kmch) And there are bumps on the road, but the front wheels come off the road, the car loses control.I do not think that in reality, this happens.Such a feature has been seen on the GT2, 1995, and the 2007 911 GT3 RS, as well as on the 911 CS car is not upgraded, setting the standard

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P18Jqlm1HQ">YouTube Link</a>

Having driven a number of 911s I can assure that at speed it most certainly can happen. That the front end 'bobs' up and down at speed is a well know trait of the model. All the load is at the rear, and as you accelerate will shift even further back, hit a big enough bump like that and the front will lift.

 

[RPM Bibblefish]

Scaff - Slightly off topic but as you've had the pleasure of driving a number of 911's i was just wondering if a lot of them are prone to lift off oversteer in real life like they are in forza?

Can't stand tuning the GT3 RSR cars in the game as it's a nightmare tyring to tune out the lift off oversteer

Edit - Why does it show this as my first post, i've been a member for a while now?

 

[thelvynau]

Scaff - Slightly off topic but as you've had the pleasure of driving a number of 911's i was just wondering if a lot of them are prone to lift off oversteer in real life like they are in forza?

Can't stand tuning the GT3 RSR cars in the game as it's a nightmare tyring to tune out the lift off oversteer

Edit - Why does it show this as my first post, i've been a member for a while now?

Thats a good question 1 post since Jan 2011? I was going to say took you long enough.

 

[Scaff]

Scaff - Slightly off topic but as you've had the pleasure of driving a number of 911's i was just wondering if a lot of them are prone to lift off oversteer in real life like they are in forza?

Can't stand tuning the GT3 RSR cars in the game as it's a nightmare tyring to tune out the lift off oversteer

Edit - Why does it show this as my first post, i've been a member for a while now?

911's are generally a little more prone to lift off oversteer than you find in FM4 (both GT5 and FM4 downplay to varying degrees the effect of sudden lift off on all drive train types) and its a little too easy to catch it in FM4 as well (and too difficult in GT5).

However overall FM4 does a good job of representing the RR drivetrain, from the bobbing nose, to the heavy understeer on the throttle when cornering (which GT5 unfortunately doesn't come close to getting right - mainly due to issues with tyre width modeling it seems) and lift off oversteer. Its not perfect, but its better than anything else on console to date.

 

[Tornado]

If I'm looking at it correctly, it also looks the section of the track had a slight downward gradient right after the front started coming up; which only would have prolonged the front end coming off the ground.


Kinda want to fiddle around with the 930 to see if I can replicate it.

 

[Wolfe]

Why does it show this as my first post, i've been a member for a while now?

Here you are. You had different email addresses between GTPlanet and ForzaPlanet so your accounts weren't combined when the sites merged.

911's are generally a little more prone to lift off oversteer than you find in FM4 (both GT5 and FM4 downplay to varying degrees the effect of sudden lift off on all drive train types) and its a little too easy to catch it in FM4 as well (and too difficult in GT5).

However overall FM4 does a good job of representing the RR drivetrain, from the bobbing nose, to the heavy understeer on the throttle when cornering (which GT5 unfortunately doesn't come close to getting right - mainly due to issues with tyre width modeling it seems) and lift off oversteer. Its not perfect, but its better than anything else on console to date.

Despite having never driven a 911, I can agree with this from experience because the front-engined cars I've driven in real life are more prone to lift-off oversteer than any of the cars in FM4. And it only takes some time spent wandering Benchmark Ring or the Top Gear Test Track, in a wily RWD like the Ruf CTR or Shelby Cobra, to notice how easy it is to catch slides before they swing beyond control.

Nonetheless, RRs are still the most oversteer-prone cars in both FM4 and Horizon, which places them among the most enjoyable cars for me. On turn-in they more closely resemble what I'd expect from front-engined RWD cars, which are rather tame in both FM4 and GT5.

 

[shved111]

Porsche 911 fm4 have a very pleasant and unusual behavior. The rear of the car is heavy, so the car is prone to drift, but it is easy to control a skid. At the same time the engine behind, provides a very effective acceleration, without slipping. And usually stable behavior of the high-speed straights.In turns 911 operate under these rules: you can turn to drive in two ways, one gently press on the gas pedal and a flat trajectory and slight understeer. Or take your foot off the gas, causing it to skid and easily control the angle of drift.

 

[Scaff]

Porsche 911 fm4 have a very pleasant and unusual behavior. The rear of the car is heavy, so the car is prone to drift, but it is easy to control a skid. At the same time the engine behind, provides a very effective acceleration, without slipping. And usually stable behavior of the high-speed straights.In turns 911 operate under these rules: you can turn to drive in two ways, one gently press on the gas pedal and a flat trajectory and slight understeer. Or take your foot off the gas, causing it to skid and easily control the angle of drift.

Which is exactly as it should be (and unlike how RR's are in GT5)

 

[shved111]

Which is exactly as it should be (and unlike how RR's are in GT5)

But I noticed that the "magic of Porsche" works on slow tracks with lots of turns. (In any except Nordschleife). On such tracks Porsche seems surprising, different from other cars and delights. 911 like a pendulum when its swing, it still gradually returns to a static position. Then I thought the 911 magical car and much better than the FR and MR cars.I thought the 911 the best car in the game, better than my favorite E36, E39, and it is.But on the Nordschleife is not shown, the car seems normal.Just do a Porsche 911 is an unusual driving experience

 

[Aftrbrnr]

I can definitely understand if you only consider cars and tracks why Forza 4 seems more like Forza 3.5. If you don't take into account any of the F4 DLC cars, the base cars your receive in Forza is essentially identical to what was in F3.

That being said, IMO probably the biggest difference between the two games is physics and how it has improved so much in 4. One big thing I noticed was cars seemed more competitive with each other in 4 where as in 3 you could have two different cars of the same performance index but one car will absolutely destroy the other. The best example I can think of was in 3 I had a '10 Shelby GT500 set to 600S but in one of the head-to-head career Nurburgring races I would get totally dusted by a 996 Porsche 911 that was an S-Class car and had a lower performance number than my GT500. I pretty much found against S-Class purpose built super cars (Ferraris, Lambos, Porsches) that a non-super car like the Shelby Mustang had little chance with those cars even if tuned to 600S and was properly setup. In F4, I found that the match up between cars was a lot more close, even if one platform was a totally different class then the other (i.e. a luxury sedan tuned to S-class had a chance of running with S-class super cars). Much to my surprise, I could enter the same '10 Shelby GT500 in S-class events where the opponents were mainly S-class super cars and winning is a possibility now it seems.

I found other additions more like icing on the cake. Autovista really came off as a novelty to me, I explored every car once thoroughly (Including the three DLC ones, a shame Turn 10 didn't make more Autovista cars) and maybe the ones I liked a few more times, but there really wasn't much more depth after that and I suspect other players probably feel the same. Given that, for me the removal of Autovista from future titles probably wouldn't be that much of a loss for me if it happened because that mode really isn't the meat and potatoes of the game.

There were a few minor deletions I noticed between 3 and 4, mainly a few cars and tracks, career races marked as endurance events (though it seems some of the higher tier Championship races in F4 almost have as many laps as the F3 endurance events) and the removal of drag racing from career mode, which I don't know if it was that big of a loss because IMO career drag racing in 3 didn't seem that well implemented.

 

[shved111]

The difference between physics fm3 and fm4 huge. As you know in fm4 has two modes of physics: "ordinary physics" and "Simulation". So "ordinary physics" taken from fm3 and was the basis for fm3. "Physics simulation" - a completely new regime, the new regime, which is almost perfect, and better than gt5.And I think, too, used to Horizon arcade physics of fm3

 

[RPM Bibblefish]

The difference between physics fm3 and fm4 huge. As you know in fm4 has two modes of physics: "ordinary physics" and "Simulation". So "ordinary physics" taken from fm3 and was the basis for fm3. "Physics simulation" - a completely new regime, the new regime, which is almost perfect, and better than gt5.And I think, too, used to Horizon arcade physics of fm3

2 modes of physics?

It's got ordinary and simulation steering but they are not two different physics engines.

 

[Scaff]

But I noticed that the "magic of Porsche" works on slow tracks with lots of turns. (In any except Nordschleife). On such tracks Porsche seems surprising, different from other cars and delights. 911 like a pendulum when its swing, it still gradually returns to a static position. Then I thought the 911 magical car and much better than the FR and MR cars.I thought the 911 the best car in the game, better than my favorite E36, E39, and it is.But on the Nordschleife is not shown, the car seems normal.Just do a Porsche 911 is an unusual driving experience

Can't say I find that at all, the 911's feel like 911's on every track in the game.

2 modes of physics?

It's got ordinary and simulation steering but they are not two different physics engines.

Exactly all the steering modes do is change the aids and the level at which they operate at, the don't change the physics engine at all, nor does FH have FM3's physics engine at all. FH is the FM4 engine which appears to be running at a lower sample rate but with some improvements to aero lift and suspension modelling.

 

[buickgnx88]

Autovista really came off as a novelty to me, I explored every car once thoroughly (Including the three DLC ones, a shame Turn 10 didn't make more Autovista cars) and maybe the ones I liked a few more times, but there really wasn't much more depth after that and I suspect other players probably feel the same. Given that, for me the removal of Autovista from future titles probably wouldn't be that much of a loss for me if it happened because that mode really isn't the meat and potatoes of the game.

I mentioned an idea elsewhere about this, in that it would be nice if they integrated the whole "Autovista" concept into the dealership as well as your garage. You could still scroll through the cars and view them like in FM4, but you would hit a button and go into Autovista mode to view each car in further detail.

 

[Speedster911]

Gosh, I love these discussions about physics and all the improvements they've made since FM3. It really doesn't get any better than this, at least not on the current Xbox.

Makes me appreciate FM4 even more. Proud to be a F4 owner and affectionado!

 

[Luminis]

Gosh, I love these discussions about physics and all the improvements they've made since FM3. It really doesn't get any better than this, at least not on the current Xbox.

Meh, they could've made the game better just by going with some different design choices here and there. Far better.

Makes me appreciate FM4 even more. Proud to be a F4 owner and affectionado!

It shows.

 

[interpolfan11]

I mentioned an idea elsewhere about this, in that it would be nice if they integrated the whole "Autovista" concept into the dealership as well as your garage. You could still scroll through the cars and view them like in FM4, but you would hit a button and go into Autovista mode to view each car in further detail.

I agree. I don't care if some cars are uglier (in terms of graphics) than others. At least they all have detailed interiors and look like they come from this console generation.

FM's biggest strength is its car list. Why not show it off?

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I still stand by my belief that Autovista was nothing more than a preview of what we can expect the model fidelity to be in FM5 on the next console. Further integration with the garage itself, like GNX mentioned, would be excellent 👍

 

[Aftrbrnr]

I mentioned an idea elsewhere about this, in that it would be nice if they integrated the whole "Autovista" concept into the dealership as well as your garage. You could still scroll through the cars and view them like in FM4, but you would hit a button and go into Autovista mode to view each car in further detail.

This kind of reminds me of how you could explore cars in TDU at the dealership and your house, though not to the extent of F4's Autovista and with dated graphics. (TDU did let you roll down the windows and interactively rev the car, where as in F4's Autovista turning on the car and revving it essentially played a pre-recorded sequence).

On the note of TDU, I think it would also be a nice touch if they did what they did when you bought cars from the dealership and gave you the option to pick interior colors and factory wheel options, not really a big deal but it would be a nice touch IMO.

 

[Speedster911]

I still stand by my belief that Autovista was nothing more than a preview of what we can expect the model fidelity to be in FM5 on the next console. Further integration with the garage itself, like GNX mentioned, would be excellent 👍

I will NOT be surprised at all if the cars look and sound better than Autovista!

 

[shved111]

Fm4 problem that online race users joystick ride faster than users steering wheel 900 mode

 

[Scaff]

Fm4 problem that online race users joystick ride faster than users steering wheel 900 mode

I know of drivers in GT that are faster with a pad that people with a wheel.

 

[shved111]

I know of drivers in GT that are faster with a pad that people with a wheel.

I'm an average player, and in GT5, I drive is on an equal footing with the owners joysticks. But fm4 not. Because fm4 not be disabled on the joystick is hidden help with drifting. This is an advantage.Approximately 5 seconds with one lap trackThe guys on the joysticks are going fast and not diverted into small drifts and driving errors, for them it decides the game.But if you are on the steering wheel, then you lose time dealing with small drifts, slides. I like driving on the steering wheel, and I do not want to change the physics and level of difficulty. But other players have an advantage. So I abandoned the race and play in the "virus."Perhaps in GT5 is what the mechanism of equalizing players.