Forza 5 physics vs GT6 аnd other sims

[Speedster911]

Wow... there are folks actually saying the control is not good in Forza 5... and here they were, Dan and his team, kicking their rears silly to bring out a launch title in 2 years!

Bopop4, have you tried adjusting the deadzones? First off, keep all deadzone insides to zero and outsides to max. This will allow you generally more freedom and degrees of movement. It also means you'll need to work on your precision driving skills as more intricate inputs are going to be required.. particularly holding the analog stick at an angle and adjusting now and then.. rather than just flicking it left/right.

Forza's deadzone settings out of the box are not the best for experienced sim drivers let me tell you that. Furthermore, it's a newer physics engine and for some reason Microbaby has reduced the range of motion on their analog sticks. Remember how gradual FM4's learning curve was? (assuming you had difficulty up on max with no assists and deadzones set to 0/max).

I've played FM5 myself a few mins here and there, and the control is nothing short of a dream. They've bettered it since FM4, noticeably. So if you get any funny ideas, cars are going to bite back and react more harshly.

A V8 in a Miata eh? Did you upgrade the tyres and suspension?

Give it time buddy boy, get attuned to the learning curve and fix those darn deadzones!

 

[Bopop4]

Bopop4, have you tried adjusting the deadzones?

I didn't adjust anything.

I've played FM5 myself a few mins here and there, and the control is nothing short of a dream. They've bettered it since FM4, noticeably. So if you get any funny ideas, cars are going to bite back and react more harshly.

They do react more harshly, it feels as if a wheel would be a better controller.

A V8 in a Miata eh? Did you upgrade the tyres and suspension?

Had neither the money or the PI. It did have sport front and rear aero though.

Stuck on race suspension and tires for B class, after adjustments it was better, but still not nearly as nice as the 312 at Spa.

 

[Speedster911]

Until and unless you adjust your deadzones and practice more finesse and subtlety on the controller, I'm afraid you'll have to make do with the current set of affairs!

 

[Ialyrn]

Bopop, never ever go the power route in a forza game (even FM4), unless attempting to set a fast LB time on the Le mans tracks; even then make sure to use Race suspension and Race brakes!!! You need to balance out the engine power, against the handling side of things. You should start by lowering the weight of a car first, adding race brakes, suspension, anti roll bars, and in some instances the race roll cage. Then add a better tire compound front and rear, and make them wider, then (if there is enough spare PI) begin to add engine power. If the car you are using feels really good and grippy, go to a lesser tire compound and add a bit more power, if it still feels like it has a good amount of grip, lower the tire widths, and add a little more power. Basically, play the engine power off against the tire compound and widths you are using.

 

[HAL20XX]

^^^^ This guy! Power adders are always a last resort for me. I almost never add forced induction unless I'm trying to replicate a real world car (or building an BRZ STi: AWD, Turbo 2.4l, 307 HP awesomeness!)

 

[Bopop4]

...

That's a gross simplification of things.

There are many tracks like Le Mans, Nurburging, Sebring etc, that require power.

I have a C2 Corvette with a ZR1 engine, I believe it's at B class, (May be A.) and at Sebring Short it totally destroys any of my other cars.

If you add race tires to a something like a Miata, you're going to be wasting your time when you could have stuck a supercharger on it.

 

[Ialyrn]

That's a gross simplification of things.

There are many tracks like Le Mans, Nurburging, Sebring etc, that require power.

I have a C2 Corvette with a ZR1 engine, I believe it's at B class, (May be A.) and at Sebring Short it totally destroys any of my other cars.

If you add race tires to a something like a Miata, you're going to be wasting your time when you could have stuck a supercharger on it.

I really beg to differ, because even a car 100% stock can go very quick around the ring in FM4; and even faster with an emphasis on grip. Its always been the case in Forza that the race is won (and lost) in the corners, and this is going right back to FM1 on the original Xbox. The only track where out right power will trump every single time, is La mans; and only then if the person has enough skill to keep it together in the twisty sections!

Stock S15 C class on the ring against 2 fully tuned C class cars.


Tuned S15 in B class on the ring, tuned with an emphasis on grip.

 

[McLaren]

Sebring requires power on 2 stretches, that's it & you just so happened to name the one variant that is nothing but 2 big stretches of the track. The Nurburgring is not a power-hungry course. There's a couple straights where it's usable, but the back half will benefit someone who can run through it without a car that builds up speed too quickly for the corners.

For a car like a Miata, it will benefit more from suspension, brake, & tire mods because it will allow the car to carry speed through turns easier. Trying to throw a supercharger on it just ends up over-powering the car & you fighting wheel spin. Small power-adders are helpful to the Miata, not what you claim.

 

[Bopop4]

I really beg to differ, because even a car 100% stock can go very quick around the ring in FM4; and even faster with an emphasis on grip.

Then how do explain a 280hp Exige being slower around the 'Ring than an NSX? There's a 100hp difference and the Honda is miles faster because of it.

You can't just say it's better because of online races. In that 2nd video all the other races couldn't drive.
You were in an S15 and out cornering a Celica and a 037, two-ish leaderboard cars. And it's not because they were tuned for power, that Celica was even on the straight.

Sebring requires power on 2 stretches, that's it & you just so happened to name the one variant that is nothing but 2 big stretches of the track.

The leaderboards for the full circuit also indicate that power wins out.

For a car like a Miata, it will benefit more from suspension, brake, & tire mods because it will allow the car to carry speed through turns easier. Trying to throw a supercharger on it just ends up over-powering the car & you fighting wheel spin. Small power-adders are helpful to the Miata, not what you claim.

A Miata already corners well, so 200hp doesn't overpower it at all.
When you give it 350hp then you'll need better tires, but by then you're already up into A class.

Edit: Forza 5: A friend brought it over with the new Xbox the other night, so I won't be able to try the new deadzones, at least not for a while.

 

[McLaren]

The leaderboards for the full circuit also indicate that power wins out.

The leaderboards in Forza games are never a clear indication of how things are. From 3, 4, & I'm sure 5, there's always glitches/hacks that affect it.

A Miata already corners well, so 200hp doesn't overpower it at all.
When you give it 350hp then you'll need better tires, but by then you're already up into A class.

You said you put a V8 in a Miata. What V8 swap in the game is giving it 200Hp?

 

[Bopop4]

The leaderboards in Forza games are never a clear indication of how things are. From 3, 4, & I'm sure 5, there's always glitches/hacks that affect it.

True, but you can still reference them to get an idea of what you should be running.
Like, don't take a B class NSX to Infineon, get something like an Elise instead.

The leaderboards in Forza games are never a clear indication of how things are. From 3, 4, & I'm sure 5, there's always glitches/hacks that affect it.


You said you put a V8 in a Miata. What V8 swap in the game is giving it 200Hp?

You said that a supercharger would overpower it.
I don't know exactly how much power it gives, but I'm going to say just under 200, not enough to make it uncontrollable.

The V8 swap was for fun, because I've always wanted to do that in Forza.
It was extremely difficult to drive, anything below 3rd was useless, and my friend couldn't even drive the car.

 

[Wolfe]

I value handling over power myself, but in FM4 I could walk away from the pack in multiplayer simply by eschewing the "Race-spec ALL THE THINGS" mindset and equipping Sport tires/suspension to allow more power. It was especially helpful in FM4 where everyone would fly into rollovers on curbs and I could usually sail through. Both full-on handling and full-on power will hold you back, I think.

What you don't want to do is upgrade cars the way the auto-upgrade system does, bumping up the power and then maybe upgrading something else if there's PI left. What a terrible feature.

 

[Bopop4]

What you don't want to do is upgrade cars the way the auto-upgrade system does, bumping up the power and then maybe upgrading something else if there's PI left. What a terrible feature.

It doesn't apply aero either.

On most of the lower classes adding a wing and splitter will actually take a way PI.
Same with transmissions. On some cars adding the one with the adjustable final drive will take it down a few PI.

I always like to get it up to the limit, then see if I can add a lightweight driveshaft, most of the time it takes a few pounds off but doesn't change the PI.

 

[Ialyrn]

Both full-on handling and full-on power will hold you back, I think.

Exactly my point when I stated to play the power off against the tire compound and tire widths in my first posting to Bopop, but that part appears to have been overlooked lol. Still, it always pays to concentrate on grip first, and then to play with the engine upgrades. Its all about finding the best combination for any car/track combination, which is why a strict emphasis on one or the other never pays off. Personally I am not the fastest on Forza, but I am usually within the top 500 on most of the tracks I have bothered to put hotlaps into; and with some oddballs cars and non LB tuned cars thrown in. Hell, some are even 100% stock! In FM5 I am doing even better, but that is probably down to the fact some of the fastest haven't switched over to the X1 and FM5 yet. When it comes to setting LB times, go nuts and try everything possible; because that is what the top 20 on the LB's are doing. When it comes to racing against others you need to find that happy medium between grip and power, or you will face plant a wall mid race where you just cant go faster; no matter how hard you try! Most of the LB tunes out there wont work in a race very well, no matter who is driving them, because it is so much harder to be consistent with them. Since the majority of people want to race (since it is a racing game after all), they need a car that will have good levels off grip, and that they can drive consistently each lap.

P.S wolf, the people who "flip" their cars on the kerbs within forza, only do so because of badly tuned suspension. Its a combination of having the suspension too stiff, coupled with exceptionally stiff bump/rebound settings. With proper settings for the car/track, that will usually never happen at all. But there are occasion when street or sport suspension is better, especially on Fujimi kaido for the B class Touge scene with a few cars. The AE86 as one example, the fastest times on the new downhill are set with sport, street, and sometimes stock suspension.

 

[Wolfe]

Exactly my point when I stated to play the power off against the tire compound and tire widths in my first posting to Bopop, but that part appears to have been overlooked lol. Still, it always pays to concentrate on grip first, and then to play with the engine upgrades...

That's the way I always do it. I was also going to mention that Forza seems to place a lot of value in tire width, perhaps more than it actually affects things in real life. Older cars are always at a disadvantage because of this.

P.S wolf, the people who "flip" their cars on the kerbs within forza, only do so because of badly tuned suspension. Its a combination of having the suspension too stiff, coupled with exceptionally stiff bump/rebound settings. With proper settings for the car/track, that will usually never happen at all. But there are occasion when street or sport suspension is better, especially on Fujimi kaido for the B class Touge scene with a few cars. The AE86 as one example, the fastest times on the new downhill are set with sport, street, and sometimes stock suspension.

I don't know about the other players, but in FM4 I never fine-tune anything except the final drive ratio and LSD.

 

[ImaRobot]

Just so we dont derail the other thread and turn it into another vs thread.

Lol @ the orange, I dislike Forza's physics for NOT being accurate. I think Turn 10, as usual, are all smoke and mirrors, I think a next generation racing game should be a lot better than this, I think GT6 is an awesome game and I do think it is better than Forza 5, which is the point really, how can a game claim to be next gen when a last gen game is better.
What is funny is that MS must have thousands of people hitting all the sites and forums with one agenda, damage limitation....not one of those are you ?

@kollosson I'm curious, in what area's do you think GT6 shines, and why?

 

[kollosson]

Hey ImaRobot, where ya been, I missed you. Obviously content wise it blows Forza away, I think handling is better and more realistic, I think GT edges it in graphics, better replay, better lighting,better layout, better camera mode...maybe not engine sounds but damn , i'll forgive them for that, oh and better box by the way, what does it mean to be a Premium member?

 

[HAL20XX]

I see a lot of what you like better, but not a single reason why.

 

[kollosson]

I see a lot of what you like better, but not a single reason why.

Why? I don't have to justify my opinion, its my opinion, you want me to go into detail so you can cut and paste each one with a witty retort? can't be bothered mate, I will site one though, I think the interface is overly complicated and clunky.

 

[ImaRobot]

Hey ImaRobot, where ya been, I missed you. Obviously content wise it blows Forza away, I think handling is better and more realistic, I think GT edges it in graphics, better replay, better lighting,better layout, better camera mode...maybe not engine sounds but damn , i'll forgive them for that, oh and better box by the way, what does it mean to be a Premium member?

Thanks for answering my question. I do admit that GT does have some nice graphics, but I just wish it was all across the board, instead of only a percentage of the game.

Although, I'm unsure as to why you dislike FM so much if your strongpoints for GT mainly have to do with only graphics and replays. They are both beautiful to look at, yet you shut one down with no second thought.

Also, a better box? In other words, you like it because Sony. So in other words, all those times you are saying your unbiased is not true?

Also also, I'm not sure what it means to be premium, it was given to me.

 

[Ialyrn]

@kollosson: There is absolutely nothing wrong with FM5's driving physics at all. In one of the car packs the Abarth punto was added, I have driven its real life sister car, the Grande punto/Punto Evo sporting, and in all honesty it handles and drives like the real thing for the most part (abarth punto's having more power in the engine, and better suspension). This is on both a gamepad and a wheel, and it reacted exactly how I expected it too. Forza is getting very close to what PC sims have been best at for a long time, the physics. What I do in Forza 5, transfers over very well to Iracing, Rfactor, and the other sims known for their good handling physics. If anything at all is lacking, its the FFB on a wheel compared to Iracing and especially Assetto Corsa, and the track list. At the very least, FM5 needs to have Nuremberg GP and the Nordschleife back. The car list isnt all bad, and its very understandable why T10 ditched the old 3d models for them, and for the tracks as well. In all honesty PD needs to do the same with GT7 on the PS4, its about time those GT2/3/4 car and track meshes got fully retired, and left to the now retro PS2 games they was made for. The newer 3d models used for the newest cars and tracks in GT are superb, cant knock them at all. The same goes for the lighting model they use, but those standard cars are sub par for a game made for the PS3 and released in 2010 (and 2014 for GT6). Which compared to the 360 is a power house in both CPU power, and GPU capabilities!

 

[kollosson]

Thanks for answering my question. I do admit that GT does have some nice graphics, but I just wish it was all across the board, instead of only a percentage of the game.

Although, I'm unsure as to why you dislike FM so much if your strongpoints for GT mainly have to do with only graphics and replays. They are both beautiful to look at, yet you shut one down with no second thought.

Also, a better box? In other words, you like it because Sony. So in other words, all those times you are saying your unbiased is not true?

Also also, I'm not sure what it means to be premium, it was given to me.

Come on dude, I'm not being biased, I'm giving my honest opinion, look if Forza 5 had all the features of GT6 and jaw dropping graphics ( which is what I expect from next gen ) I would be the first to admit and praise T10 but it hasn't it looks in keeping with what we are playing on the old gen machines and that sucks and the bit about the game box I really like the GT6 game box, its slick.

 

[kollosson]

@kollosson: There is absolutely nothing wrong with FM5's driving physics at all. In one of the car packs the Abarth punto was added, I have driven its real life sister car, the Grande punto/Punto Evo sporting, and in all honesty it handles and drives like the real thing for the most part (abarth punto's having more power in the engine, and better suspension). This is on both a gamepad and a wheel, and it reacted exactly how I expected it too. Forza is getting very close to what PC sims have been best at for a long time, the physics. What I do in Forza 5, transfers over very well to Iracing, Rfactor, and the other sims known for their good handling physics. If anything at all is lacking, its the FFB on a wheel compared to Iracing and especially Assetto Corsa, and the track list. At the very least, FM5 needs to have Nuremberg GP and the Nordschleife back. The car list isnt all bad, and its very understandable why T10 ditched the old 3d models for them, and for the tracks as well. In all honesty PD needs to do the same with GT7 on the PS4, its about time those GT2/3/4 car and track meshes got fully retired, and left to the now retro PS2 games they was made for. The newer 3d models used for the newest cars and tracks in GT are superb, cant knock them at all. The same goes for the lighting model they use, but those standard cars are sub par for a game made for the PS3 and released in 2010 (and 2014 for GT6). Which compared to the 360 is a power house in both CPU power, and GPU capabilities!

I agree that the car selection in Forza 5, even though limited, is excellent, I truly wish I had some of those cars in GT6, they have chosen their car list very well indeed and you are correct in that PD have got to drop the old tracks and cars because if they don't then what I am saying about T10's next gen effort will apply directly to GT7, there is no place in a next gen GT for standard cars/tracks because that's not next gen. I have to give your opinion of the Punto handling like it does in real life some credibility as I have not driven a car in Forza 5 and compared it to its real life counterpart, however I do know the Mini in GT6 handles pretty close to the real one I own.

 

[HAL20XX]

Why? I don't have to justify my opinion, its my opinion, you want me to go into detail so you can cut and paste each one with a witty retort? can't be bothered mate, I will site one though, I think the interface is overly complicated and clunky.

You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to having it respected or taken seriously unless you can defend it.

 

[ImaRobot]

Come on dude, I'm not being biased, I'm giving my honest opinion, look if Forza 5 had all the features of GT6 and jaw dropping graphics ( which is what I expect from next gen ) I would be the first to admit and praise T10 but it hasn't it looks in keeping with what we are playing on the old gen machines and that sucks and the bit about the game box I really like the GT6 game box, its slick.

What Im wondering is if PD detailed 100% of their cars top notch, instead of what.. 20%, how much they would have to step back in terms of everything else.

I feel that they kind of shot themselves in the foot with the standards vs premiums. What are they gonna do when they release next gen? If they still have standards that would be a major upset, while on the other hand if they do 100% all across, then they would probably have to take resources from something else, which would also be an upset.

Although for the latter, I'm sure they would be praised about it, instead of getting ridicule like T10 seems to be getting.


EDIT: I'm sorry! I just noticed I posted it in the VS Physics thread..

 

[kollosson]

What Im wondering is if PD detailed 100% of their cars top notch, instead of what.. 20%, how much they would have to step back in terms of everything else.

I feel that they kind of shot themselves in the foot with the standards vs premiums. What are they gonna do when they release next gen? If they still have standards that would be a major upset, while on the other hand if they do 100% all across, then they would probably have to take resources from something else, which would also be an upset.

Although for the latter, I'm sure they would be praised about it, instead of getting ridicule like T10 seems to be getting.

You are absolutely correct in that GT7 will have to take a drop in car count, those standard cars will have to go as well as the old tracks. Its worrying with the rumours of GT7 on PS4 although there are now rumours of GT7 prologue.

 

[Ialyrn]

@ImaRobot: I still remember the debate that raged across the internet when GT5 released over the standard/premium model they adopted, it wasn't pretty at all. It made a lot of people transfer over to the 360 to give Forza a chance. Some of those people have gone back to the PS3 for GT6, and all because they now feel they want more content over quality. Ive said since FM5 was announced that T10 are in a catch 22 situation, they pretty much cant do right for wrong. They have even been blamed for the last gen Xbox 360 compatible Fanatec wheels not working on the Xbox one, and that one squarely rests on Microsofts shoulders; T10 have no choice about what peripherals work on the new console whatsoever.

 

[HAL20XX]

Sadly, other than spending a lot of money and putting in a lot of time to redo every asset, there's no way either T10 or PD can win in this situation.

 

[Wolfe]

...I'm sure [Polyphony] would be praised about it, instead of getting ridicule like T10 seems to be getting.

The difference is that the Standard cars will be two generations old by that time, while T10 scrapped everything that had been made just prior to FM5, presumably with full knowledge that they'd be making a next-gen game soon. While I don't have an issue with what made the cut in FM5, I don't really pity T10 on this. It seems like bad planning.

At the same time -- and to bring us back toward physics -- I don't give a rat's ass how many polygons or texture pixels go into a car as long as it behaves properly on the track and is a reasonably accurate depiction anyway. I'm tired of all the scuffling over headlight lens geometry and interior door handles while other aspects of both the GT and FM games stagnate. Polyphony needs to step it up on physics and delivering on its promises. Turn 10 needs to get around to adding more tracks to FM5, implementing more features for the next game, and building up the car list again. Only this time, maybe make those assets a bit more future-proof?

 

[Speedster911]

Ditt-O!