Forza 5 physics vs GT6 аnd other sims

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Wow anybody see the ISR Final review for Gt6? Ouch! One look at the GT side of this site and you can see even the hardcore fans are not taking this anymore. The Gt community is crumbling from within.
 
At the same time -- and to bring us back toward physics -- I don't give a rat's ass how many polygons or texture pixels go into a car as long as it behaves properly on the track and is a reasonably accurate depiction anyway. I'm tired of all the scuffling over headlight lens geometry and interior door handles while other aspects of both the GT and FM games stagnate.


"How many polygons?"
"Several dozen."

"And how many textures?"
"How many what?"


:P
 
Imagine a racing sim with colorful Virtua-Racing-grade graphics, but top-notch realistic physics, an exhaustive list of licensed cars/tracks, and a glut of other features with the development time, processing power, and disc capacity they'd save. Or a new game like Auto Modellista (but better).

More racing games should explore other stylistic options.
 
I'm still trying to hunt a copy of AM down, just for giggles.

It'd be wonderful to see some different visual approaches compared to the bleeding-edge-realism we get with FM and GT, but as has been mentioned a bunch of times across the boards, these sorts of games increasingly carry a hefty budget if they're to make any dent in the sales charts, and that means playing it safe. Hell, Forza, despite taking the idea of simulation more seriously than GT for half a decade now, by going to tire manufacturers or Calspan, still catches flak from gamers as too "arcadey" based on no more than, as far as I can tell, not having the GT logo on the box. Realistic graphics sell, especially if a game is trying to recreate other aspects of reality.
 
@SlipZtrEm -- Naturally. Although I think Auto Modellista's unique style turned some heads, and it was ultimately let down by its own regrettable shortcomings, like the handling, as Tornado alludes to.

For the average gamer, I'm sure AM is even more difficult than Forza 5 with all of its assists disabled (or something like iRacing, for that matter), and not for the sake of realism. :lol: Instead of steering, you "pivot" the car, and you have to balance that against a limited amount of tire grip. If you ride the edge of traction, you kind of drift, and if you pivot too far, you lose a ton of speed from skidding. If you're willing to work with it, it mostly works, but to be so patently unrealistic and yet require highly mindful driving anyway? Doomed with a capital 'D'.
 
All in all, I'm happy with what consoles have been able to churn out as far as sims go...

Oh wait.. now that I think about it, I'm actually not.

How many devs actually took a bold step during the X360/PS3 era to take simulators seriously? Apart from PD and T10...

No worthwhile bike sims... no serious F1 sims... WRC... puhleeese, don't even get me started on that one!

I'm tired of hearing the "go to PC" song to experience the best in sims. Consoles have the power today, they had the power the previous generation and the previous one (Xbox/PS2) to churn out some really good simulators.

Devs are sadly, scared of getting their toes wet - small fanbase (apparently they're not from this earth), inadequate sales... it's like saying.. hey why send anybody a memo or a formal email regarding the meeting when we can use Facebook's chat/message engine to let all our contacts know?

It's about going with what's in, and what's hot... which is why we may have seen so many CRAP arcade racing games being released in favor of serious driving simulators. Back when the original Need for Speed premiered in the early 90s.. arcade racing games were relatively unheard of.

The only folks it seems, who can cater to us sim-hungry nuts are T10.. and I hope to God they don't goof up Horizon 2 or FM6.

Thanks for reading. *rant over*
 
I really hope Horizon 2 ditches the festival nonsense and just offers up a variety of driving styles in an attractive setting. The Rivals map is brilliant for what it is and it's criminal they didn't include a photo mode.

Back to Horizon, it'd be great to have a beach front for cruising and racing from stop lights. Then a variety of roads from narrow lanes to highways leading out through a town and then some tight mountain and canyon roads in the distance. Then it could be centred around a Motorsport even with hillclimbs, drag races and P2P. So rather than a music festival, it could be a festival of speed.
 
I like the idea of some sort of event that the game is based around. It's probably even possible to do a music festival and not have it be cheesy. But Horizon was so stereotypically bro-culture that it was almost sickening at times. Fun, and there were some good laughs, but it all had to be taken with tongue firmly in cheek.

A motorsports event would seem to make more sense though. Motorsports with a side of music and other stuff thrown in, rather than the other way around.
 
VXR
I really hope Horizon 2 ditches the festival nonsense and just offers up a variety of driving styles in an attractive setting. The Rivals map is brilliant for what it is and it's criminal they didn't include a photo mode.

Back to Horizon, it'd be great to have a beach front for cruising and racing from stop lights. Then a variety of roads from narrow lanes to highways leading out through a town and then some tight mountain and canyon roads in the distance. Then it could be centred around a Motorsport even with hillclimbs, drag races and P2P. So rather than a music festival, it could be a festival of speed.

Such wonderful ideas. This was one of the chief reasons I stopped playing Horizon within days - the cheesy cartoony setting and all those stupid arcade sound effects. They just leaned too heavily on the side of casual racing. An open road racing game can be sim-oriented. Remember how the original NFS had both point to point AND circuit racing. That would be very welcome in a Horizon game. Please T10 you guys, ditch the dude-bro nonsense and give the fans a serious open road racing game with the depth and panache of the Motorsport series.
 
I like the idea of some sort of event that the game is based around. It's probably even possible to do a music festival and not have it be cheesy. But Horizon was so stereotypically bro-culture that it was almost sickening at times. Fun, and there were some good laughs, but it all had to be taken with tongue firmly in cheek.

A motorsports event would seem to make more sense though. Motorsports with a side of music and other stuff thrown in, rather than the other way around.

Rather than the other way around, exactly my sentiments!
 
The Horizon Festival itself was Totally Radical, but they did pretty much drop the "story" after the first handful of races.

In terms of physics, Horizon is still far and away the most sim-oriented open road racing game. Considering they got so much flak for the handling, even though it was obviously FM4 underneath (they altered the tire model and little else), I wonder if they'll even bother incorporating FM5's physics into Forza Horizon 2. No one seemed to appreciate the effort.
Remember how the original NFS had both point to point AND circuit racing. That would be very welcome in a Horizon game.
Horizon has both, plus rallycross circuits (my favorite).

EDIT: I just realized you mean actual circuits. I grew up with The Need for Speed, I should have recognized that. :dunce:
 
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I'd be gutted if the FM5 physics were lost in translation. Driver aids can soften it for casuals.
 
The Horizon Festival itself was Totally Radical, but they did pretty much drop the "story" after the first handful of races.

In terms of physics, Horizon is still far and away the most sim-oriented open road racing game. Considering they got so much flak for the handling, even though it was obviously FM4 underneath (they altered the tire model and little else), I wonder if they'll even bother incorporating FM5's physics into Forza Horizon 2. No one seemed to appreciate the effort.

Horizon has both, plus rallycross circuits (my favorite).

EDIT: I just realized you mean actual circuits. I grew up with The Need for Speed, I should have recognized that. :dunce:

The reason Horizon got so much flak was due to the fact that most diehard Forza fans were expecting the same polish as FM in the physics department while the game being in an open road setting. If you stop comparing it to other road racing games, and just look at the Forza physics formula, Horizon was somewhat of an oversimplified version of the depth and polish found in Motorsport.

Horizon's rally tracks BTW were something I was really looking forward to. Though, the lack of dirt kicking up and the rallying being too easy, put me off almost completely.

I sincerely hope T10 start listening to gamers everywhere and incorporate a serious sim engine in the next Horizon game. They ought to, as assists can always numb the physics down for casual gamers.

Would be nice to see a game developer step forward and build upon the formula the original NFS left behind; circuit + point to point racing, car showrooms, that nostalgic feeling...man, I still can't say enough good things about the original NFS, even to this day!
 
I still rate Horizon above FM1-FM3 on physics realism (apart from missing details such as tire wear), and I don't enjoy FM4 much because it's all understeer when you're not hammering the throttle. But whatever, I agree that they shouldn't pull any punches with FH2.
 
^^ Aren't you forgetting the ridiculous braking depicted in Horizon? I'd have to rate FM2 and 3 much higher on the physics scale, Anyhooo...

I'm surprised you're still experiencing understeer in FM4. There have been countless threads on the official forums..

* Turn off motion effects
* Adjust deadzones - zero inside, max outside
* Front toe out: 0.5, rear toe in: 0.5
* Play around with caster - high (positive) if you can live with slow turn in but better grip at the apex through a long sweeping turn or low (negative) if you want faster turn in response
* Drop the camber: between -3 and -4.5 front, between -1.5 and -2.5 rear (though you can experiment with higher values)
* Anti roll bars soft - rear softer than the front
* On bumpy uneven tracks, keep suspension soft, ride height relatively high and dampers just between soft and medium and rebound a little higher than that. Subsequently on flat out even tracks such as Indianapolis drop the height as much as you can, keep camber on the high negative side, stiffen up the suspension and keep dampers very soft. Adjust caster according to your driving style.
* You may not want to keep camber at highly negative values on bumpy, uneven tracks, but if you prefer it that way you can always use caster to compensate

* Do you have a habit of flicking the analog stick in either direction when going into turns? Cos' if you do that'll cause a lot of understeer much like it does in real life. You will really need to pick your racing lines the way pro race drivers do on a circuit; slow in, hit the apex, fast out.

* Downshifting at the right time really affects the way your car yaws.

Now, on the other hand if you're running a stock suspension, some cars have a natural tendency to understeer/oversteer or have just the right balance.

A very understeery car is the modern day supercharged Ford GT 500. You really need to get crafty with the handling on that one.

On the other hand, the 458 has is a beautifully balanced car. So is the F40.

The MPC-12C can oversteer easily out of corners.

A word on tire width and rim size: choosing really big rims can make handling difficult in some cases as it forces the tire to work harder on straights and corners (the smaller the rim size, the faster the revolutions per second, since the tire doesn't have to work as hard).

Choosing really wide tires on the front as opposed to the rear improves overall performance and handling but can make your car sluggish around corners. Even AWD cars have slightly less wide tires at the front. The only case where you're going to be going full wide on both front and rear is with FWD cars.

I'm sure you're right up there among the Forza veterans, but I'm curious when you say FM4 understeers - compared to other racing sims/games or real life high speed precision driving?
 
^^ Aren't you forgetting the ridiculous braking depicted in Horizon?
We'll each have our opinions of what's most important, but IMO Horizon's unreal braking is nothing compared to FM3's flypaper tires that won't let you drift without >300hp, and the indescribably woolly, awkward mess that defined FM1 and FM2 in anything other than a straight line. Yeah, Horizon grips too much, but its core handling dynamics are truer to life.
  • It's not a trick of the camera, the sense of speed is fine.
  • I've tried your deadzones.
  • It's not a matter of tuning, I test physics with maneuvers that probe the limits, not by how it "feels" while attempting normal laps.
  • It's not caused by excess steering lock (I play from the interior view so I can pay attention to steering angle). The rear end remains planted when it shouldn't.
  • A Stratos or MR2 should not skid lazily forward when you suddenly lift the throttle as you're diving into a corner. Downshifting doesn't upset the car the way it should, and neither does braking.
FM4 just lacks the full range of handling balance, and it gets annoying when I'm pushing a car to its limits. Forza Horizon gets annoying too, because it's not much different. They're the sort of game where I find myself reaching for the handbrake button to initiate the off-throttle oversteer my brain expects. This is based on both real world experience and higher-level sims like Live for Speed.

I'd love to try FM5 sometime soon, because I'm curious if this is something they've fixed.
 
We'll each have our opinions of what's most important, but IMO Horizon's unreal braking is nothing compared to FM3's flypaper tires that won't let you drift without >300hp, and the indescribably woolly, awkward mess that defined FM1 and FM2 in anything other than a straight line. Yeah, Horizon grips too much, but its core handling dynamics are truer to life.
  • It's not a trick of the camera, the sense of speed is fine.
  • I've tried your deadzones.
  • It's not a matter of tuning, I test physics with maneuvers that probe the limits, not by how it "feels" while attempting normal laps.
  • It's not caused by excess steering lock (I play from the interior view so I can pay attention to steering angle). The rear end remains planted when it shouldn't.
  • A Stratos or MR2 should not skid lazily forward when you suddenly lift the throttle as you're diving into a corner. Downshifting doesn't upset the car the way it should, and neither does braking.
FM4 just lacks the full range of handling balance, and it gets annoying when I'm pushing a car to its limits. Forza Horizon gets annoying too, because it's not much different. They're the sort of game where I find myself reaching for the handbrake button to initiate the off-throttle oversteer my brain expects. This is based on both real world experience and higher-level sims like Live for Speed.

I'd love to try FM5 sometime soon, because I'm curious if this is something they've fixed.

I feel Forza 4 to be to forgiving as far as over steer is concerned. But not completely lacking at all. Forza 5 is much less so and requires you to balance the car much more. I think you will be very happy with the outcome.
 
We'll each have our opinions of what's most important, but IMO Horizon's unreal braking is nothing compared to FM3's flypaper tires that won't let you drift without >300hp, and the indescribably woolly, awkward mess that defined FM1 and FM2 in anything other than a straight line. Yeah, Horizon grips too much, but its core handling dynamics are truer to life.
  • It's not a trick of the camera, the sense of speed is fine.
  • I've tried your deadzones.
  • It's not a matter of tuning, I test physics with maneuvers that probe the limits, not by how it "feels" while attempting normal laps.
  • It's not caused by excess steering lock (I play from the interior view so I can pay attention to steering angle). The rear end remains planted when it shouldn't.
  • A Stratos or MR2 should not skid lazily forward when you suddenly lift the throttle as you're diving into a corner. Downshifting doesn't upset the car the way it should, and neither does braking.
FM4 just lacks the full range of handling balance, and it gets annoying when I'm pushing a car to its limits. Forza Horizon gets annoying too, because it's not much different. They're the sort of game where I find myself reaching for the handbrake button to initiate the off-throttle oversteer my brain expects. This is based on both real world experience and higher-level sims like Live for Speed.

I'd love to try FM5 sometime soon, because I'm curious if this is something they've fixed.

Ah yes, add to that adjusting gear ratios and brake balance like those two pointed out.

* Motion effects twist the FOV in a way so that it becomes difficult to judge turn angles. Turn it off and I'm sure you won't feel your car's understeering as much. Again, it's nothing to do with physics, but how the camera interprets movement around corners.
* The interior view is something you never want to use while trying to improve cornering abilities. Even though the cam movement in cockpit view does a decent job, there's virtually no way to tell what the front wheels are doing, thanks to the SNES/Mega drive era wheel animation. Switch to bumper or hood, and instantly you'll be improving your cornering abilities. Forza's wheel animation will never give you an accurate sense of steering angle sadly.
* Hmm, I understand how a mid-engined rear wheel drive car can break loose carrying too much speed into a corner when you ease off the throttle; I've honestly had no complaints so far, but I'm going to test this now with a handful of mid-engined cars. Cars with different powertrains behave the way they should while braking and downshifting though.

Higher level sims eh? I'm curious now, looking up the LFS review as we speak.

I'm sure you have all your assists off yeah? As a last resort, I'd recommend SIM steering if you're not already using it. And remember, practice subtly "gliding in" the steering wheel when negotiating turns as opposed to making jerky movements or flicking the analog stick in any direction.

Have you tried Forza with a good wheel and pedals?

FM5 is a dream, physic-wise. More so that certain PC devs might find themselves upping their game.
 
@Speedster911 --
  • I don't just "feel" a lack of oversteer. It's an observation based on experiments, not a subjective call based on hotlaps.
  • The wheel animation tells me exactly what I want to know -- how much in-game steering lock is being applied. It doesn't matter that it bears no resemblance to the steering angles you'd be using in a real life car. I accept it as purely virtual information.
  • Bear in mind that with the mid-engined cars, lateral weight transfer (a good Scandinavian flick) will accomplish oversteer pretty well, but that's not a great strategy while fighting for position in a race.
There's a free demo of LFS on their website. It runs smooth on even low-spec machines and accommodates any input you've got (keyboard, mouse steering, gamepad, wheel), so I suggest giving it a try...you might see what I mean when it comes to adjusting the attitude of your car with the throttle. "Steering the car with your right foot," as it's called. 👍

I play with no TCS or stability control, no ABS. In Forza games, I always test everything in both steering modes. I don't play any console games with a wheel (Forza does not support my G25), but I seek out explicit vehicle behaviors, not just how it "feels" to drive. A realistic physics engine will do things right regardless of how you interact with it.
 
I play with no TCS or stability control, no ABS. In Forza games, I always test everything in both steering modes. I don't play any console games with a wheel (Forza does not support my G25), but I seek out explicit vehicle behaviors, not just how it "feels" to drive. A realistic physics engine will do things right regardless of how you interact with it.

I have to point this out to you, but FM4 (and all other forza's), have speed sensative steering while using a game pad. More so in normal steering than in Sim steering, but there are layered assists that can not be turned off no matter what. The game is set up this way to aid the controller user, and these layered assists also aid in counter steering to a point.
If you want to experiance FM4 the best way, then you would need a wheel.

Also the MR2 is glued to the tarmac in FM4, I took one stock down Fujimi ages ago to see how it would handle been thrown around; and I had to force that thing to brake traction. The weight balance of that car, and the default tire widths make it a pretty fast car in forza. Its fast for both Touge racing, and for Circuit racing, lost count how many races I have won in an MR2. This also goes for the older MR2 in the game also.



But there isnt a lack of oversteer in forza 4 though, I have personally drifted a stock trueno not only down Fujimi Kaido, but also around the Ring and other tracks. I spent a good 70% of my time in FM4 testing cars 100% stock and throwing them around, all to see just what I could get away with while driving them. Ive been doing the same in FM5 also, and its even easier to do this in there; especially with the TX wheel.
 
REALLY wish there were an option to turn off speed sensitive steering on controllers. PC sims have the options to adjust this, why can't Forza? A patch perhaps? Meh... unlikely.
 
@Ialyrn -- I'm aware of the input filtering; all console racing games use some form of it. It does not change the physics engine, it only defines how input is registered. The car doesn't respond differently to input.
Also the MR2 is glued to the tarmac in FM4, I took one stock down Fujimi ages ago to see how it would handle been thrown around; and I had to force that thing to brake traction. The weight balance of that car, and the default tire widths make it a pretty fast car in forza. Its fast for both Touge racing, and for Circuit racing, lost count how many races I have won in an MR2. This also goes for the older MR2 in the game also.
That's not accurate. MR2s are documented for their snap oversteer in the sort of situation I'm talking about. A friend of mine had one of the later model years of the W20 MR2, when Toyota tuned the car to understeer to make its handling safer, and he still spun it on a tiny autocross course.
But there isnt a lack of oversteer in forza 4 though...
There's certainly no lack of power oversteer (as in my first statement -- "it's all understeer when you're not hammering the throttle"), and as I said above, oversteer from lateral weight transfer (flicking the car) works relatively OK.

What's missing is a degree of oversteer from the weight transfer of braking, or upsetting the balance of the car by downshifting or lifting the throttle at high RPM. It's not a game-killing issue like, say, the horrors of Gran Turismo 4, but I find it annoying to be unable to adjust my line using the throttle.

It doesn't work properly in Horizon, either, but the extra bite in the tire model lessens the problem.
 
^^^^ Give FM5 a try. You'll be pleasantly surprised. Many of the real-world reactions you are speaking of are present, particularly with a wheel. The controller counteracts so much input that it does mask a sizable portion of the physics model. Basically, the controller corrects too much of the vehicle's behavior, though it is still much better than FM4.
 
No one I know has an XBone, but it's on my to-do list. I haven't gotten around to trying GT6, either, even though my sister has a PS3 I could ask to borrow...my expectations are low on that one.

I'm curious about your claim that FM5 masks things or corrects too much. Maybe the game provides some stabilizing steering corrections, but I'd expect the virtual steering wheel to reflect that. If you can know what the front wheels are doing, there's nothing hidden...unless the game breaks its own laws of physics, like Skid Recovery Force in Gran Turismo.
 
Do you reckon 5 masks some inputs? I don't think it does personally, given how often the car overcorrects and spins out easily with weight shifting.

What I like most is, despite being easy to overcook, it feels so dang enjoyable getting to grips with a car and very satisfying when you do. Ten laps at Bathurst in the Caterham was the highlight so far.
 
No one I know has an XBone, but it's on my to-do list. I haven't gotten around to trying GT6, either, even though my sister has a PS3 I could ask to borrow...my expectations are low on that one.

I'm curious about your claim that FM5 masks things or corrects too much. Maybe the game provides some stabilizing steering corrections, but I'd expect the virtual steering wheel to reflect that. If you can know what the front wheels are doing, there's nothing hidden...unless the game breaks its own laws of physics, like Skid Recovery Force in Gran Turismo.

After playing GT6 and moving on to FM5. I feel it doesn't. And I like it. A lot.


For example, Hot Hatches actually act like Hot Hatches and not ride on rails.
 
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