Forza 5 physics vs GT6 аnd other sims

[Igano]

If it existed sure, but it doesn't right now (and maybe for a long long long time ). And the best next gen feature from both of them is for sure Drivatar. It might need some tuning, but it is revolutionary and it can transform the offline mode!

 

[UkHardcore23]

If it existed sure, but it doesn't right now (and maybe for a long long long time ). And the best next gen feature from both of them is for sure Drivatar. It might need some tuning, but it is revolutionary and it can transform the offline mode!

I hate the Drivatars, For me they are amazing for the casual racer or would be ideal for Forza Horizon rather than a sim.

They behave so erratic, Serious racers want to race they dont want to worry constantly what the car in front is always going to do or the car behind be it slam the breaks on a straight, Slow right down half way through a corner, Ram you when you pass, go off to the grass then wait to take you out etc etc.

Drivatars should be a option for the casual's but give the rest of us proper racing AI where they are predictable like race drivers are.

 

[Imari]

GPS Visualiser is surly the most impressive feature for any racer? I cant seem to get it to work though?

The one that requires you to own a specific type of GT86, requires a $900 option that isn't available until June, and only works on 3 tracks all located in Japan (with more to be coming soon, supposedly)?

To give them the benefit of the doubt, if it works it will be pretty cool. At the moment it is entirely useless, and even when functional it's of direct use to so few people that it's more of a marketing thing than an actual feature. A cool feature, but it's hardly going to add to the common user's experience unless PD/Toyota/Nissan really make an effort to distribute ghost data for people to use with it. I'll believe it when I see it.


This is the problem with Polyphony. Lots of cool ideas, but they're remaining as ideas. VGT was a reasonably cool idea, if I ignored the little voice in my head screaming "MARKETING PLOY! MARKETING PLOY!!" But we would have got a regular flow of sexy cars, and that would have been very nice.

For whatever reason, it flopped. Maybe they get it going later in the year, but as it stands now they have one car and a race variant, just enough to tease the concept and no more.
The huge course creator sounded great, but they've got stone silent on that one since release.
The GPS log your drive to work thing would be amazing, especially since I give high odds that somebody hacks together a program so that you can draw your own track and export it as GPS data, making it essentially a true track editor.
Their ideas for online sound very enticing.
B Spec is a great idea that's never really reached it's potential, in my opinion. I'm still interested to see how they progress it, and at worst having an AI driver to swap off to during long races is good. There aren't any long races, but it's still a good idea.

Polyphony has never lacked in good ideas, what they lack is the ability to bring those ideas to life in a way that really adds to the game.
GT6's problem is that all the "wow, that's going to be awesome" stuff is in the updates, still to come. What exists at the moment is another edition in a fairly long line of Gran Turismo games, without much to differentiate it other than potential future features.

 

[Igano]

I hate the Drivatars, For me they are amazing for the casual racer or would be ideal for Forza Horizon rather than a sim.

They behave so erratic, Serious racers want to race they dont want to worry constantly what the car in front is always going to do or the car behind be it slam the breaks on a straight, Slow right down half way through a corner, Ram you when you pass, go off to the grass then wait to take you out etc etc.

Drivatars should be a option for the casual's but give the rest of us proper racing AI where they are predictable like race drivers are.

This is all a matter of options and fine tuning the parameters of their behavior. The core of the idea has been materialised though. I personally prefer my AI to have some life in it than being totally perfect. Of course you can have both and it's only a matter of more options.

 

[UKMikey]

Really? Make another post this useful and I'll give you something to lolz about.

OK...

I don't know whether anyone else has noticed but the Drivatars seem to improve over time as the players that they're synced with improve.

A good illustration of this is that the Road America drivatars were far more erratic when the track was launched than they are now and I'm fairly certain the same will be true of Long Beach which came out today.

Given this it seems crazy to me to write off the whole Drivatar concept as "only for casual's".

 

[McLaren]

It was that way at launch as well and they have improved a lot since. I expect he isn't racing on the hardest difficulty of he believes it's for "casual" racers.

 

[UkHardcore23]

It was that way at launch as well and they have improved a lot since. I expect he isn't racing on the hardest difficulty of he believes it's for "casual" racers.

I alternate between Unbeatable & Pro (on Unbeatable the vast majority of the time)...The back 10 cars are a nightmare the front 5 race clean...every race...Seems to be no depth at all with Drivatars the top 3 are always the same and 9/10 times 1st place is always the same. Also im finding in the last month they have made 1st place go miles in front of anyone else on both difficulties, Another problem with Drivatars is with most races being only 2 laps the gap between 1st place and last is insane it's far to wider gap it's a gap you'd maybe expect after 15 laps of proper racing.

 

[Wolfe]

It would be nice if the culture of GTPlanet didn't engender these instances of mistaken intentions just because someone has something positive or negative to say about either game in the wrong place or at the wrong time. Especially given the mixed situation we have today where one game is way more promising on paper but fails to deliver, and the other game is less ambitious but what it has is done well.

I was fully aware that Speedster911 is not in any way just another troll from the GT section, and I agree with the overall point of his post on the last page: Turn 10 seems to aspire to an excessive level of quality that detracts from the series' potential. I would add that it's partly the fault of gamers, the pixel counters, jaggie hunters, and polygon snobs. FM5 with all of FM4's assets plus more and amazing new things with the power of the XBone would make for a more compelling game, IMO, but Turn 10 would be derided for not delivering something "next-gen" enough.

 

[Speedster911]

Thank you for the honest and upfront feedback.

Cheers.

 

[FordGTGuy]

It would be nice if the culture of GTPlanet didn't engender these instances of mistaken intentions just because someone has something positive or negative to say about either game in the wrong place or at the wrong time. Especially given the mixed situation we have today where one game is way more promising on paper but fails to deliver, and the other game is less ambitious but what it has is done well.

I was fully aware that Speedster911 is not in any way just another troll from the GT section, and I agree with the overall point of his post on the last page: Turn 10 seems to aspire to an excessive level of quality that detracts from the series' potential. I would add that it's partly the fault of gamers, the pixel counters, jaggie hunters, and polygon snobs. FM5 with all of FM4's assets plus more and amazing new things with the power of the XBone would make for a more compelling game, IMO, but Turn 10 would be derided for not delivering something "next-gen" enough.

Turn 10 is trying to create a foundation for future titles on Xbox One, that means building cars and tracks that meet that needed level of quality. If they went your suggested route what would they do when it comes to Forza 6? Wouldn't they end up in the same situation that they are in now? Instead they now have a foundation to build more cars and tracks for Forza Motorsport 6 with higher quality visuals, sounds and accuracy.

 

[Wolfe]

Frankly, I'm among the group who are surprised that the last of the assets they made for 360 -- DLC in particular -- weren't already built with the next gen in mind. I can't think of any reason they couldn't have kept "master" files, and simply scaled them down for the 360 games.

I simply have no issue with the level of quality in the FM4/FH models, either. Errors/glitches or inaccuracies, sure, but when the radio/HVAC buttons are legible in photomode I think there's more than enough detail. I'd rather have more cars to drive than insanely detailed ones. Don't get me wrong, though -- I don't think FM5 is lacking for cars, it has plenty. I just wonder if it was really necessary to cut so many.

 

[Speedster911]

FordGTGuy, don't you honestly feel they need to divert some of that focus to things like:

* Night, weather and rallying

* Ability to select between different aftermarket parts that influence the cars' characteristics differently

* Realistic and believable particle effects

* More focus on better data capture for sake of truer TV like race replays and various cockpit animations

* Endurance races and full pit stops that affect the outcome of the race

* Getting the game to look more photo-realistic rather than adding layer after layer of CGI to 'beautify' it and make it more visually pleasing

Anyway, I'm not going to make this a wish thread.

But the whole give the customer more tracks and cars with better polished physics, audio and graphics is getting a little stale. It may appeal a lot to new comers to Forza, certainly not the decade old diehard fans.

Frankly, I'm among the group who are surprised that the last of the assets they made for 360 -- DLC in particular -- weren't already built with the next gen in mind. I can't think of any reason they couldn't have kept "master" files, and simply scaled them down for the 360 games.

I simply have no issue with the level of quality in the FM4/FH models, either. Errors/glitches or inaccuracies, sure, but when the radio/HVAC buttons are legible in photomode I think there's more than enough detail. I'd rather have more cars to drive than insanely detailed ones. Don't get me wrong, though -- I don't think FM5 is lacking for cars, it has plenty. I just wonder if it was really necessary to cut so many.

Maybe they're employing the FM1 to FM4 approach here. Although this time around, it'd be interesting to see what becomes of it, since it's on just one console. I think a good foundation is there; weather they'll give fans just what they want over the years remains to be seen. I do have high hopes though.

 

[HAL20XX]

But that is a wishlist and it doesn't speak for what the community as a whole wants. Just because it's something you want doesn't mean T10 has lost their way. It simply means they have a different vision.

 

[FordGTGuy]

It's nice to want something but there is a difference between implementing a feature and properly simulating the feature.

If all weather means in Forza is that the cars are a little more slippery than no I don't want it, if night means they can't hold a locked 60 fps than no I don't want it but if they can do it properly without negatively affecting gameplay than I'm all for it.

 

[Speedster911]

But that is a wishlist and it doesn't speak for what the community as a whole wants. Just because it's something you want doesn't mean T10 has lost their way. It simply means they have a different vision.

Weather, night driving, endurance races and pitstops are something practically EVERY fan has been longing for. Check out the official forums. T10 does listen to the fans, but in the end what kind of dose they give us, that is entirely up to them. Typical example: FM5. Too bad their vision is driven primarily by profits and not breathing new life into the franchise.

It's nice to want something but there is a difference between implementing a feature and properly simulating the feature.

If all weather means in Forza is that the cars are a little more slippery than no I don't want it, if night means they can't hold a locked 60 fps than no I don't want it but if they can do it properly without negatively affecting gameplay than I'm all for it.

It can all be done, all of it at a rocksteady 60 fps. They just haven't optimized their code for it. They had a legit excuse in case of the X360, but not this time I believe.

 

[FordGTGuy]

It can all be done, all of it at a rocksteady 60 fps. They just haven't optimized their code for it. They had a legit excuse in case of the X360, but not this time I believe.

Please share your programming expertise with the rest of us.

 

[HAL20XX]

Weather, night driving, endurance races and pitstops are something practically EVERY fan has been longing for.

No, this is what the people on forums have been asking for. The last time I checked, the total number of vocal forum users pales in comparison to total sales figures. I'm not disputing it wouldn't be a very welcome addition, but you're making some large assumptions based on very little data.

Too bad their vision is driven primarily by profits...

That's the point of a business. T10 is no different than any other business out there. It doesn't matter if the end product is purely for entertainment, if they aren't going to make a profit, they aren't going to do it.

...and not breathing new life into the franchise.

They seem to be doing a pretty good job at that with their DLC plan. We're nearly 6 months in and I still find myself playing as much as I did on day on. And let's not forget Horizon, which breathed plenty of new life into the Forza franchise.

 

[Wolfe]

But that is a wishlist and it doesn't speak for what the community as a whole wants. Just because it's something you want doesn't mean T10 has lost their way. It simply means they have a different vision.

That's a succinct way to explain how I feel put off by FM5.

Please share your programming expertise with the rest of us.

FM5 is the way it is because of decisions Turn 10 made in the course of development, not because the XBone couldn't possibly deliver dynamic lighting or weather effects of any sort at 60fps.

...let's not forget Horizon, which breathed plenty of new life into the Forza franchise.

I know Speedster911 isn't fond of Horizon, but it represents the sort of fresh thinking that I would like to see from its older stablemate. Not stylistically, but in terms of gameplay. Maybe Turn 10 intends to leave time-of-day, weather, rally, point-to-point racing, fantasy roadcourses, and all such things to the Horizon brandname.

 

[Tornado]

The about face on how horrible all of the Forza 4 and Horizon purpose-built (as opposed to the FM2 and FM3 ones, which did tend to be notably ropey) models apparently always were truly is a wakeup call to me. Since it was not too long before Forza 5 was announced that Forza 4's modeling quality mesh-wise was being spoken of as if Jesus himself descended from heaven to sit at a terminal and mess around with Maya, I'm grateful to now be told (constantly, every time someone even suggests that halving the car list to chase diminishing returns is something they took issue with even if they say the carlist itself is still good) that all of their efforts to date, including the ones they were building while Forza 5 was in development, were so blatantly unsuitable for an Xbone game that they needed to be culled outright; and furthermore that them doing so is obviously the correct decision, because otherwise they are totally like GT5 Standard cars, or something.


Except for those ones that they apparently did just touch up, of course.

 

[FuzzyFassbender]

Next

 

[Imari]

Weather, night driving, endurance races and pitstops are something practically EVERY fan has been longing for. Check out the official forums. T10 does listen to the fans, but in the end what kind of dose they give us, that is entirely up to them. Typical example: FM5. Too bad their vision is driven primarily by profits and not breathing new life into the franchise.

I'd have said it's the other way around. They must know that they could ram all those features in at "barely acceptable but hey, it's on the box!" levels of quality and sell a ton. Look at GT6, they're advertising with stuff that isn't even in the game.

They choose not to. It probably costs them sales, if anything. They were fairly clear that there weren't going to be many cars of tracks in game, that the Nurburgring wasn't going to be there, that all sorts of stuff wasn't going to be there. I don't think any of that makes them a profit.

After watching the ISR interview recently, I'd say that they have pretty rigid quality standards. They know that weather and time can be done, they've been done for decades now. They're not confident that they can do it to a level that satisfies them, so they don't.

It's a different approach to Polyphony, who are keen to get features out as soon as they're even moderately functional. I suspect that if T10 were to do weather, for example, they'd have it on every track or none. That's how they treated cockpits, anyway. Polyphony are comfortable with having cockpits only available on some cars, night and weather only on some tracks.

And hey, each to their own. This is what you get when you're a game designer, you get to decide how your game approaches these sort of things. Are fans going to appreciate a feature even though it's not entirely complete? Or are you better off eating the bad press for now to knock it out of the park later on?

 

[FordGTGuy]

FM5 is the way it is because of decisions Turn 10 made in the course of development, not because the XBone couldn't possibly deliver dynamic lighting or weather effects of any sort at 60fps.

For one, stop calling it "Xbone" it sounds childish. Secondly, you can't make a claim about what is or isn't possible using their engine without some form of proof. If you can produce this proof I'd be more than willing to agree with you but until than it is only speculation and not a fact.

 

[Speedster911]

I'd have said it's the other way around. They must know that they could ram all those features in at "barely acceptable but hey, it's on the box!" levels of quality and sell a ton. Look at GT6, they're advertising with stuff that isn't even in the game.

They choose not to. It probably costs them sales, if anything. They were fairly clear that there weren't going to be many cars of tracks in game, that the Nurburgring wasn't going to be there, that all sorts of stuff wasn't going to be there. I don't think any of that makes them a profit.

After watching the ISR interview recently, I'd say that they have pretty rigid quality standards. They know that weather and time can be done, they've been done for decades now. They're not confident that they can do it to a level that satisfies them, so they don't.

It's a different approach to Polyphony, who are keen to get features out as soon as they're even moderately functional. I suspect that if T10 were to do weather, for example, they'd have it on every track or none. That's how they treated cockpits, anyway. Polyphony are comfortable with having cockpits only available on some cars, night and weather only on some tracks.

And hey, each to their own. This is what you get when you're a game designer, you get to decide how your game approaches these sort of things. Are fans going to appreciate a feature even though it's not entirely complete? Or are you better off eating the bad press for now to knock it out of the park later on?

Ah yes'sih! Definitely that second part! Good things are sure to come. The wait kills sometimes, that's all!

 

[FordGTGuy]

I'm actually most excited about the prospect of cloud-driven weather in Horizon 2 and DX12 Forza 6.

 

[Wolfe]

@FordGTGuy -- You misunderstand what I mean. The FM5 engine is the end result of the decisions I mentioned; it's after the fact. Just like how Gran Turismo's framerate woes are Polyphony Digital's fault for allowing the PS3 to become overworked, if FM5 could never produce nighttime lighting or weather effects at 60fps, it's because of how Turn 10 constructed the game and the balance of quality/performance they targeted.

 

[Igano]

You are jumping to conclusions that the engine can't support 60fps and weather, it could be a lot more than this (e.g. schedule etc.). An assumption you have made is not a fact.

 

[Wolfe]

@Igano -- I hope you're referring to FordGTGuy, because my whole point is that FM5 could have featured weather at 60fps if that had been on Turn 10's to-do list from the beginning, or indeed, if they had the extra time they might have needed, as you point out.

 

[UKMikey]

@Igano -- I hope you're referring to FordGTGuy, because my whole point is that FM5 could have featured weather at 60fps if that had been on Turn 10's to-do list from the beginning, or indeed, if they had the extra time they might have needed, as you point out.

I guess with a finite amount of resources/man hours something else would've have to had "given" if they'd concentrated on weather effects.

 

[Igano]

My point is that we do not know the reasons, keep in mind these guys ditched a huge number of cars because they wanted only top quality with autovista. There are so many possibilities why they chose to delay it.

To name a few:
-tight schedule
-too many other things to get straight because of a new console
-wanting to get a super super detailed and complex weather model
-pushing too much the graphics and not letting adequate free resources for it
-keeping weather for the next iteration in order to milk us

It could be one of these or even all of them. So let's not take anything granted but one thing is for sure we will know the reason in the future. I personally believe that because they had to make a new title at launch date of the console and they had too many new things to work with, they chose to leave it for the next one in order to give a truly next gen experience. I prefer this than PD's approach where they try to do too many ambitious things only to find out later they can do half of that.

 

[FordGTGuy]

@Igano -- I hope you're referring to FordGTGuy, because my whole point is that FM5 could have featured weather at 60fps if that had been on Turn 10's to-do list from the beginning, or indeed, if they had the extra time they might have needed, as you point out.

Actually I said there is no proof either way as to whether it can handle it.