Forza 5/6 vs GT6 (See First Post Before Posting)

[TokoTurismo]

No, you weren't unless you did it on a track with unequal surface or picked some other odd variable like rain to induce it. The game doesn't simulate it from a standing start, people have proven so already. The only people I've seen state they have experienced it with are wheel users, which leaves a lot of room to verify it because chances are high the wheel is already turned to one side or the other by a small degree & the game lets the smallest variables affect it happening.

I'm a DS3 user and all I know is on certain surfaces on tracks, torque steer cannot be performed, especially on SSRX.

I did however, try on tracks like Bathurst, and torque steer can perform there.

 

[McLaren]

I'm a DS3 user and all I know is on certain surfaces on tracks, torque steer cannot be performed, especially on SSRX.

I did however, try on tracks like Bathurst, and torque steer can perform there.

Then it's not torque steer causing the car to behave that way. It's the track angle affecting it which isn't very realistic if it takes a small degree of the track being "tilted" one way to cause a car to move in that direction. It should move in that direction (or the other) if it has enough power, regardless of the track.

That's why people are asked to replicate it on SSRX. They end up unable to because it's a flat surface & thus, there is no uneven angle of the surface to affect the car.

 

[TokoTurismo]

That's why people are asked to replicate it on SSRX. They end up unable to because it's a flat surface & thus, there is no uneven angle of the surface to affect the car.

I'm pretty sure a few has done it already and couldn't get it. I feel that torque steer is modeled, just not properly modeled to the point it can't perform on certain tracks which is strange.

 

[McLaren]

I'm pretty sure a few has done it already and couldn't get it. I feel that torque steer is modeled, just not properly modeled to the point it can't perform on certain tracks which is strange.

Scaff says it's modeled in motion, which is a step in the right direction. But, from a deadstop, if the track angle is required to "simulate" it, I don't consider that modeled. To me, that's just the car following the track's angle just as it follows straight forward on SSRX.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

The improved tyre model I think is reason why on standing starts there is torque steer in GT6. I think issue is drivetrain and transmission modelling regarding SSRX.

 

[Wolfe]

@McLaren -- It depends on whether it slips to the side only to follow the slope of the track, or if the slope provides the unevenness needed to produce the effect. If it's the former, then it isn't modelled. If it's the latter, it means GT6 doesn't generate inequalities in the car's drivetrain without any single bit of external stimuli. That's not quite the same as an absence of torque steer. It would count against a FWD that should have unequal halfshafts, but with a RWD it's a different kind of flaw.

I suspect Forza applies a degree of random noise to its calculations to shake things up and keep the car from balancing on that 50/50 edge, but there's no way to confirm that without knowing if it provides any surfaces that are artificially smooth and flat like SSRX.

 

[Zer0]

The game doesn't simulate it from a standing start, people have proven so already. The only people I've seen state they have experienced it with are wheel users, which leaves a lot of room to verify it because chances are high the wheel is already turned to one side or the other by a small degree & the game lets the smallest variables affect it happening.

So how do you explain that even with the same steering wheel angles torque-steer in a standing start can't be recreated in GT5 (independently of the track and in any apparently flat surface) but it happens with no effort in GT6 in the same exact situations and in many tracks?

 

[McLaren]

So how do you explain that even with the same steering wheel angles torque-steer in a standing start can't be recreated in GT5 (independently of the track and in any apparently flat surface) but it happens with no effort in GT6 in the same exact situations and in many tracks?

GT5 simulated zero torque steer in any situation. In GT6, Wolfe just explained why.

Either way, the game still doesn't simulate it as it should though it's nice to see you finally concede that GT5 never created it after all those arguments with Scaff that it did indeed.

 

[Zer0]

Either way, the game still doesn't simulate it as it should though it's nice to see you finally concede that GT5 never created it after all those arguments with Scaff that it did indeed.

I have never discussed that GT5 have no torque-steer in a standing start, just the existence of the effect in the driving model (the infamous wrong statment that GT5 have not torque-steer) and the importance of that ommision (standing start torque-steer) in the whole driving model regarding the game realism (the infamous "GT5 have no torque-steer so automatically is less realistic than...").

 

[TokoTurismo]

Scaff says it's modeled in motion, which is a step in the right direction. But, from a deadstop, if the track angle is required to "simulate" it, I don't consider that modeled. To me, that's just the car following the track's angle just as it follows straight forward on SSRX.

Ahh okay, so that was the cost of it all along. Aww. But good to know the motion is at least in the right direction.

 

[McLaren]

I have never discussed that GT5 have no torque-steer in a standing start, just the existence of the effect in the driving model (the infamous wrong statment that GT5 have not torque-steer) and the importance of that ommision (standing start torque-steer) in the whole driving model regarding the game realism (the infamous "GT5 have no torque-steer so automatically is less realistic than...").

You have done so in the past. I believe you were the reason why Scaff posted the Cobra videos of FM4 displaying how GT5 should simulate torque steer, but never did.

 

[Zer0]

You have done so in the past. I believe you were the reason why Scaff posted the Cobra videos of FM4 displaying how GT5 should simulate torque steer, but never did.

I believe you are wrong:
FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

 

[McLaren]

I believe you are wrong:
FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

I suppose so I was. Either way, you've been one of those in the thread who claimed repeatedly GT5 simulated torque steer amongst other things & were wrong. As said, good to see you finally concede otherwise.

 

[revhead_1000]

I has a sad
Seriously the fact that you can play with the AI that close racing would never make me want to come online!

I could only dream for something like this in GT6 which is unfortunately going on the exact opposite direction...

Wow! I am depressed at the poor quality of GT6 AI, heck even when playing FM3 at a mates place the race was extremely competitive. Why Polyphony Why?

 

[Speedster911]

I think Polyphony are a little sick of GT themselves!

Maybe they should rename the franchise or at least consider going in a different direction.

Releasing version after version of more cars/tracks, better visuals and only slightly noticeable improvement in physics, is getting really stale.

 

[mister dog]

Maybe they should rename the franchise

"Dyson traffic driver"?

 

[UkHardcore23]

I think Polyphony are a little sick of GT themselves!

Maybe they should rename the franchise or at least consider going in a different direction.

Releasing version after version of more cars/tracks, better visuals and only slightly noticeable improvement in physics, is getting really stale.

Sounds exactly what Koanmi need to do with PES

No doubt the Japanese got left behind last gen so personally a reboot would be good for PD as well as Konami with PES. Ditch the iconic names and start a fresh!

 

[mister dog]

Sounds exactly what Koanmi need to do with PES

No doubt the Japanese got left behind last gen so personally a reboot would be good for PD as well as Konami with PES. Ditch the iconic names and start a fresh!

I bought PES2014 as i find that the player's move a lot more realistically than FIFA's effort with their new physics system. No licensing (thanks EA) and blundering keepers apart it is the better footie game IMO

Didn't bother purchasing GT6 though, and if they dare to give Senna's rides hoover sounds again i will never do even if they charge me 5 bucks for it.

 

[Speedster911]

Senna's rides hoover sounds.....

 

[UkHardcore23]

I bought PES2014 as i find that the player's move a lot more realistically than FIFA's effort with their new physics system. No licensing (thanks EA) and blundering keepers apart it is the better footie game IMO

Agree with that but still compared to the older games it's abysmal.

 

[VXR]

PES5 and 6 were amazing and I thought 13 was the best since those games. I switched to FIFA for this year and whilst I'm very happy with it, I do miss the customisation of PES. I used to create my own leagues and teams and play in my own fantasy football world and I loved it.

 

[ReverenceSatans]

Scaff says it's modeled in motion.

With no proof.

On SSX at and above 200kph there was absolutely no torque steer.

The only places that "simulate" it have very slight cambers that can easily be checked by parking across the track surface and releasing the breaks, the car will begin to roll if it isn't flat. If it isn't flat, the test isn't valid.

 

[Scaff]

With no proof.

Are you suggesting that GT doesn't simulate torque steer when vehicles are in motion at all?

Now it may not be 100% accurate (then again neither is Forza's) but its certainly present when vehicles are in motion

On SSX at and above 200kph there was absolutely no torque steer.

Most cars will not torque steer at speeds in excess of 120mph in reality, mainly due to the fact that they will be in a higher gear which reduces the level of torque at the driven wheels. Its exactly the same reason why I can get my 170bhp Alfa to torque steer in first from a standing or rolling start but not in fifth.

The only places that "simulate" it have very slight cambers that can easily be checked by parking across the track surface and releasing the breaks, the car will begin to roll if it isn't flat. If it isn't flat, the test isn't valid.

That would be from a standing start, which kind of requires a car to not be in motion.

 

[ScottPuss20]

I've seen many gameplays of Forza 5, and the on thing that really sets it apart from Gran Turismo is how much the cars slide when you're not even trying to drift. The steering is indirect, so it looks totally unrealistic. When braking in real life, cars do not slide unless the brake bias is stuffed up. Gran Turismo has nailed it on this one.

 

[HAL20XX]

I wouldn't use replays to measure anything.

 

[ReverenceSatans]

Are you suggesting that GT doesn't simulate torque steer when vehicles are in motion at all?

Now it may not be 100% accurate (then again neither is Forza's) but its certainly present when vehicles are in motion

So why did my cars drive 100% arrow straight on SSX from 0 to 200kph+ with smoke billowing from the tyres?

That would be from a standing start, which kind of requires a car to not be in motion.

It's the simple test that shows the "nearly imperceptible" camber on the road that invalidates "confirmed" torque steer tests some users claim. SSX is the only truly flat surface in GT6 that I can remember and thus the only location that could provide solid evidence of torque steer.

I wouldn't use replays to measure anything.

Since FM3, Forza replay data capturing has been horribly compressed leading to horrible accuracy and very weird looking replays.

 

[Imari]

When braking in real life, cars do not slide unless the brake bias is stuffed up.

You may want to clarify what you mean by "slide". Because in the generic sense of the word, they very much do.

Brake harder than the tyres can handle, tyres lock, car slides. Exceed the combined lateral and longitudinal grip of a tyre, car slides. Hell, just braking hard on an uneven surface will cause the car to move around quite a bit. Not to mention the well-known technique of trail braking all the way into the apex of a corner to keep the weight off the rear of the car and help it rotate tighter, by sliding.

If you're not sliding the car at least a little bit, you could be going faster.

 

[Speedster911]

I've seen many gameplays of Forza 5, and the on thing that really sets it apart from Gran Turismo is how much the cars slide when you're not even trying to drift. The steering is indirect, so it looks totally unrealistic. When braking in real life, cars do not slide unless the brake bias is stuffed up. Gran Turismo has nailed it on this one.

I would recommend you play the game first (preferably with a wheel) before summing it up based on videos.

So why did my cars drive 100% arrow straight on SSX from 0 to 200kph+ with smoke billowing from the tyres?




It's the simple test that shows the "nearly imperceptible" camber on the road that invalidates "confirmed" torque steer tests some users claim. SSX is the only truly flat surface in GT6 that I can remember and thus the only location that could provide solid evidence of torque steer.



Since FM3, Forza replay data capturing has been horribly compressed leading to horrible accuracy and very weird looking replays.

I fail to understand how that last part about terrible FM3 and onward replays add to the discussion.

 

[Scaff]

When braking in real life, cars do not slide unless the brake bias is stuffed up.

Yes they do.

Gran Turismo has nailed it on this one.

Turn off ABS, GT does it as well.

So why did my cars drive 100% arrow straight on SSX from 0 to 200kph+ with smoke billowing from the tyres?

Straight line torque steer is only going to occur in the vast majority of cars in lower gears, as I quite clearly explained and you seem to have missed/ignored.

You seem to be under some odd impression that torque steer can only happen to a car when the wheels are dead straight, that's not even close to correct, particularly given that power over-steer begins with toque steer affecting the yaw rate of the rear of the car.

The purpose of the GT test (and I should know - I originated it) was to highlight that GT doesn't model torque steer in a specific scenario, from a standing start.

It's the simple test that shows the "nearly imperceptible" camber on the road that invalidates "confirmed" torque steer tests some users claim. SSX is the only truly flat surface in GT6 that I can remember and thus the only location that could provide solid evidence of torque steer.

Great. Shame it doesn't even remotely address the point I made.

 

[Speedster911]

^^Nailed it pretty much on all aspects.