Forza Motorsport 3

[Tenacious D]

To add to what I said above, in that second video, you should be able to make a livery like any of those race cars without too much trouble.

I also like that replay around Suzuka. Finally, replays which will be fun to save and watch!

 

[Dravonic]

The livery editor is restricted to vector shapes with a position, size, rotation, skew, transparency, colour, and a few other properties. I believe they are stored as an xml or something like that. Basically, you download the files that contain all the vinyl position, and your xbox recreates the livery.

There are several theories as to why things are done this way, and they're all pretty sound.
1) You stop people transferring textures to each other. You get a small, easily-checksummed xml document, that you can be pretty sure isn't going to contain any malicious code. Your xbox then recreates the livery. This makes security-conscious MS happy.
2) You create a real economy where it takes genuine skill to create a good paint job.
3) As Tenacious said, it allows editing of the vinyls at any time.
4) It also enables their new storefront option to sell vinyl groups as small pictures, eg individual logos etc.
5) The moment you move away from preset shapes, you have to start creating photoshop-style tools. And that takes a lot of time and effort.

The important thing to remember here is security and integrity of Xbox Live. If I slap a 2mb file on my car, who wants to wait until I upload 2mb to everyone else on the server? What if I import a copyrighted image?

GT may end up more photoshop-ish, with mouse support etc. I'd be interested to see how they implement it. Shift a simple livery editor, but it followed the Forza paradigm of positioned preset shapes. Either way, painting a car in Forza is still fun and rewarding, lots of people spend more time painting than they do racing. Try it before you slam it hey? The fact that you looked at those paint jobs and thought they were imported or created with photoshop tools just shows how powerful and versatile the livery editor is in the right hands. It's not as hard as it looks.

1-)Security is far from an issue. I find it hard to believe anyone could embed malicious code into a texture. And even if they do, the game would still read it as a texture with the only consequence being some weird looking textures.
2-)Genuine skill would still come up with mind-blowing liveries. The only difference is that the ok guys could still have fun.
3-)As long as you keep your livery organized, you still will be able to edit it without any problems.
4-)More ways to rip off your money. Unless you mean in-game cash.
5-)Indeed that would be more complicated to do, but hey, if you want a great livery editor you need to put effort into it.

Your claim about size actually is the one that makes more sense to me. Could really be a problem to download 7 different textures. I don't actually know a full-car-texture size, can be 100k, 2mb, 5mb, I don't really know. It's not really dependent on the file you use since it will be converted in the game. I think there are some clever ways around the size problem but it can be a problem right there.

Like others pointed out, there is the porn problem. However, Forza's is still prone to the porn problem. If people can create such a realistic looking woman, I doubt they can't create realistic woman body parts... But yeah it would be a lot harder to keep track since a kid just need to import an image instead of spending hours to make it look real. However, just like with image importing, you still need the moderation since I believe the non-realistic porn is also a problem.

Copyright is probably the biggest problem. However, you have some questionable ways to overcome it, like the "it's not my fault, it's the guy's who copied it" approach. For example, in any forum, people can upload any image, copyrighted or not. As long as you tell people they shouldn't do that and have someone remove the image, you should be fine.

Anyway, now I do see why not having a image import option. It has a lot of bad consequences. Still, it would help a lot and I believe it should be worked on to be made possible. Forza's approach appear to work fine for a simple race car livery, but if you want to go beyond, or try something more complex, you're in for a lot of work.

And I mean a lot. That's my main problem with it. It's like trying to do a photo realistic livery in a slightly improved MS paint. There are a lot easier ways to do the same thing.

 

[aspect8]

1-)Security is far from an issue. I find it hard to believe anyone could embed malicious code into a texture. And even if the do, the game would still read it as a texture with the only consequence being some weird looking textures.
2-)Genuine skill would still come up with mind-blowing liveries. The only difference is that the ok guys could still have fun.
3-)As long as you keep your livery organized, you still will be able to edit it without any problems.
4-)More ways to rip off your money. Unless you mean in-game cash.
5-)Indeed that would be more complicated to do, but hey, if you want a great livery editor you need to put effort into it.

1) It is indeed possible (however unlikely) to embed malicious code in images. It has been done before jpegs. Most PC games don't allow users to push files to you without explicit permission, and consoles tend to have even more restrictive standards regarding security file exchanges between users.
2) No, it means that everyone would import their favorite google image search result. You would have no painting trade or economy. If you'd rather it that way, that's fine, but that would be the result.
3) True, if you already have photoshop skills.
4) In game cash.
5) They have already put a lot of effort into it. More than any other game racing game has (that I can think of). Expecting tools from a $500 graphics program in a $100 xbox game is a bit optimistic.

As Tenacious says, it's not impossible to create these liveries, it just requires skills. Just because those skills don't overlap with those you already possess, doesn't mean it's a failure. I'm pretty sure Turn 10 had their reasons for doing things this way, it's not as if they've just said "let's make this as obtuse as possible". How on earth would most photoshop tools work with a 360 controller anyway?

These guys have developed 3 games in 6 years with this feature, and they seem convinced it's the best way to do it. Nobody else has managed to come up with anything better. You haven't even used it and you've branded it a failure. See the problem here? Give it a go, it's strangely soothing and relaxing once you try it.

PS. Tenacious, have you got F3 yet? I'd love to see some of your work. We need to start up a livery thread.

 

[Dravonic]

1) It is indeed possible (however unlikely) to embed malicious code in images. It has been done before jpegs. Most PC games don't allow users to push files to you without explicit permission, and consoles tend to have even more restrictive standards regarding security file exchanges between users.
2) No, it means that everyone would import their favorite google image search result. You would have no painting trade or economy. If you'd rather it that way, that's fine, but that would be the result.
3) True, if you already have photoshop skills.
4) In game cash.
5) They have already put a lot of effort into it. More than any other game racing game has (that I can think of). Expecting tools from a $500 graphics program in a $100 xbox game is a bit optimistic.

As Tenacious says, it's not impossible to create these liveries, it just requires skills. Just because those skills don't overlap with those you already possess, doesn't mean it's a failure. I'm pretty sure Turn 10 had their reasons for doing things this way, it's not as if they've just said "let's make this as obtuse as possible". How on earth would most photoshop tools work with a 360 controller anyway?

These guys have developed 3 games in 6 years with this feature, and they seem convinced it's the best way to do it. Nobody else has managed to come up with anything better. You haven't even used it and you've branded it a failure. See the problem here? Give it a go, it's strangely soothing and relaxing once you try it.

1-)Interesting. However, the only way I can see it working is if the game has some kind of security flaw. As long as you do it right and patch the eventual flaws, that shouldn't be a problem.
2-)I don't think so. Sure, people would do that, but it would look horrible. You need at least some work on it to make it acceptable. And the artists would still be there doing their amazing job. It will only make things easier to those with less talent.
5-)I did not mean to imply otherwise and yes, expecting a photoshop in the game is too much, but I told you already I didn't.

I'm not saying it's a failure because it requires different skills. I'm not even saying it's a failure. I'm just saying how I'm disappointed since I was expecting something more advanced and easier to use. Say a really simplified photoshop, like the sort I've seen free. But it's a MS paint with layers instead.

 

[Tenacious D]

PS. Tenacious, have you got F3 yet? I'd love to see some of your work. We need to start up a livery thread.

No, I'm a Yank so I have to wait till at least Monday for it like all the good, patient boys.

I did take a few decent pics of a handful of my better cars in this post of a livery thread. In some earlier cars, I went a little overboard with decals, but they still came out pretty decently. I still have a couple of F40s to go, but one has no stock decals, so I'm making them all from scratch.

The Forza 2 garage does look very slick, and a lot like the graphics in the F3 demo, so while I don't expect any big jumps in epic liveries in F3, that's because the bar is already set pretty high by F2. I am looking forward to what goodies we are blessed with in the paint shop, although the thought of having to start all over on my custom decals is a little disheartening. Oh well, I'll get over it.

While I'm about average as a livery artist, I do have an artist's touch, and like creating ones that look fairly authentic. I'm going to be approaching F3 like I did the previous Forzas, which is almost like an RPG, so my initial liveries are going to be rather basic, and get more ambitious as I go. I'm also creating liveries for a few "virtual" racers, as I did in F1 and 2, so there will be a few styles I'll be playing with.

To ease the fears of those inexperienced with livery making, as I was when I started - I was pretty lost, I might make a few tutorials, or at least steer people to tutorial YouTube vids.

 

[aspect8]

Dravonic:
The problem is MS hates even potential flaws. It's why they don't like file export onto USB and several other things we know Turn 10 asked for but where refused permission for. Console development is much more restrictive than PC development. And yes, it could be better. But in the mean time, if you take the plunge, we'll do our best to help you get the hang of it.

Tenacious:
I'm picking mine up tomorrow... w00t! I think the ability to sell individual vinyl groups will make it much easier for beginners to create good replica's. Lots of racing paint jobs are pretty simple, it's the authentic sponsor decals that are very difficult. Being able to buy them separately and slap them on whenever you want should take a lot of the pain out of it. I will be making a CAT and Stegbar logo straight away. Those liveries you linked look good, looking forward to seeing more in F3.

This will be one of my first liveries, transplanted from the pictured BA falcon to the FG falcon supercar.

 

[DrTrouserPlank]

^ That's seriously unbelievable. And I've seen others even more photo-realistic. They lead me to believe you could import an image. I don't see why not. Or why it would be hard to implement in the game.

If they allowed you to import images, anyone with passable photoshop skills (read me and quite a lot more people) could come up with some nice looking things. If the only way is messing with basic shapes, you need to be a full blown artist and spend far too many ours to make something reasonably good...

So much for my "livery editor hype"... If they ever do it in GT, I hope it's a lot more photoshop-ish (read easier to deal with, and allowing you to import images).

This is why I've never been a fan of the livery editor, aside from the fanatics who've got thousands of hours to waste making a face, and the know-how, it's pretty useless for anything other than writing your name on the car.

I wish they would release the PC software that the turn10 designers use when they create liveries so we could export them to into the game. One thing's for sure, they aren't creating theirs by fiddling around with a control pad for weeks on end.

 

[McLaren]

This is why I've never been a fan of the livery editor, aside from the fanatics who've got thousands of hours to waste making a face, and the know-how, it's pretty useless for anything other than writing your name on the car.

I wish they would release the PC software that the turn10 designers use when they create liveries so we could export them to into the game. One thing's for sure, they aren't creating theirs by fiddling around with a control pad for weeks on end.

Um, actually, they are all done in-game. If they don't, then they ask one of the painters in the community.

 

[DrTrouserPlank]

Um, actually, they are all done in-game. If they don't, then they ask one of the painters in the community.

The user created ones might be, but in the same way the Little big planet wasn't created using the actual in-game level designer, the official liveries that will/are released by Turn10 designers will not have been made using the in-game livery editor as it is just too time intensive. It will be a done on a PC using a GUI similar to the one found in-game and using a mouse and keyboard which would speed the process greatly.

 

[McLaren]

The user created ones might be, but in the same way the Little big planet wasn't created using the actual in-game level designer, the official liveries that will/are released by Turn10 designers will not have been made using the in-game livery editor as it is just too time intensive. It will be a done on a PC using a GUI similar to the one found in-game and using a mouse and keyboard which would speed the process greatly.

Please point out which liveries are done on a PC, then.

 

[Chronos]

Well the postal strike is happening but I've received my LCE this morning by Royal Mail. Seems delivery staff strike tomorrow while mail centre staff and drivers strike today.

About the Livery. I like how littlebigplanet copy paste images onto anything. You can import stuff from the PS eye and do what you want. Forza has a great editor and I understand MS are really strict but it does seem odd in 2010 that you have to spend hours and hours manipulating shapes to get a photo realistic face or accurate logo when you could import it and touch it up further within the game. It's like walking to 100miles for a news paper when you could go to a shop a few minutes away. Just madness.

I had Deluxe paint on my Amiga 500 in 1991 and that's like some alien super advanced program compared to the Livery editor in FM3.

 

[Mark T]

I personally like the livery editor as it is. I think that if you were able to upload images the livery editor itself would become boring. It also helps to build a community within the game by way of players asking other experienced painters for help. I never really used the livery editor in Forza 2but I'm going to have a good go at it this time around.

 

[DrTrouserPlank]

Please point out which liveries are done on a PC, then.

Any that are released by Turn10. The LCE pack of "5 cars that come painted and tuned by Turn10" for example will have been exported from a PC livery editor.

 

[Tenacious D]

T10 also has access to text fonts that aren't in the livery editor. One thing I'm itching to know is if national flags have once again been left off. If so, I'm buying the first Brazilian flag that shows up on the store.

aspect: unfortunately, I get a forbidden error on that image, but I'll be up for checking out everyone's liveries whether they did them themselves or not. The stuff done in FM2 were simply amazing, and I'll be curious how the better artists are using those extra 400 layers.

I haven't lobbied very hard for it yet, but I think one thing I'm probably going to is a livery pack, if they'll allow that to be expanded at all.

 

[Moglet]

The whole point of the livery editor is that it takes time and effort to paint the cars properly. I prefer it this way, if you could import images into the game it would ruin the community completely and the marketplace would fall down.

I've been asked to create a livery for another site I visit so I'll post that up once I'm finished.

Regarding the 18 rated imagery, I've seen plenty of Forza 2 cars in the marketplace that contained hentai images and the like. Why someone would want a car with that on is beyond me though.

EDIT: Also, something very useful;

If you go to your profile and go to multiple screens (even if you are using one screen) settings and alter the setting that controls the difference of angle between screens you can effectively alter the your seating position on inside view forwards and back (allowing better views of the interior and mirrors) with 90 degrees being the furthest away from the dash with most visible 30 being your nose touching the windscreen.

 

[Tenacious D]

And just to keep people from freaking out, the only hentai and other naughty cars I've seen have been on the Auction House. In races, all the cars have been clean.

 

[Bogie 19th]

1-)Security is far from an issue.

Security is Microsoft's number one issue over Xbox Live. This is a combination of security and Microsoft control. Microsoft wants to control everything.

The user created ones might be, but in the same way the Little big planet wasn't created using the actual in-game level designer, the official liveries that will/are released by Turn10 designers will not have been made using the in-game livery editor as it is just too time intensive. It will be a done on a PC using a GUI similar to the one found in-game and using a mouse and keyboard which would speed the process greatly.

Any that are released by Turn10. The LCE pack of "5 cars that come painted and tuned by Turn10" for example will have been exported from a PC livery editor.

I never read that Turn 10 uses a PC to make their liveries. Interesting. However, there is nothing that Turn 10 has released that couldn't be reproduced using the in game livery editor.

 

[African Kat]

I saw a youtube video pitting a couple of sporty sedans against each other on a 1/2 mile drag. Included, were an RS4, E92 M3 and M5 - the RS4 won!

The E92 M3 should be faster over a 1/2 mile - that was dissapointing. Can you race against AI in a drag race - if you can - can it be that a car could 'get faster' depending on who the AI driver is?

 

[Bogie 19th]

All cars can be tuned and parts can be added, so it all depends on what custom work was done to the car, and the car stats...as far as the drag results go.

FM2 has better AI drivers and other AI drivers. I can't confirm this to be the case for FM3 yet though, as I don't have it.

 

[African Kat]

All cars can be tuned and parts can be added, so it all depends on what custom work was done to the car, and the car stats...as far as the drag results go.

FM2 has better AI drivers and other AI drivers. I can't confirm this to be the case for FM3 yet though, as I don't have it.

The guy who posted the video reckoned all the cars were stock. I also noticed from the drag replays on Youtube that the launches seem weird - the throttle would be at max( car rev limiting) - It get lots of wheelspin for 2 seconds, them immediately grips.

I quite liked Forza 2 launches - various different outcomes based on throttle position

 

[Bogie 19th]

The guy who posted the video reckoned all the cars were stock.

But we don't know.

 

[McLaren]

Any that are released by Turn10. The LCE pack of "5 cars that come painted and tuned by Turn10" for example will have been exported from a PC livery editor.

Oh, so you're telling me these cars that Turn10 are releasing below, were both done on a PC?

 

[Chronos]

Oh, so you're telling me these cars that Turn10 are releasing below, were both done on a PC?

The BMW was done recently by someone on GAF with the editor though wasn't it? I think he's on about the ones well before release. I'm sure they can be done though but why would they go the long route for the promo shots? Although I'm not stating they're done on PC. They do include users early on so they could well be.

 

[McLaren]

Both cars were done with the in-game editor just as all the others. I don't see why people have to think Turn10 used a PC editor for the LCE cars considering that the community has done far more complex creations. Hell, even the 2 FM2 cover cars (DB9 & 350Z) you get were done long before by the community in FM2's editor, so I have no idea why a PC editor would be needed.

The font argument doesn't really hold a lot of ground as again, many people created their own fonts through the in-game editor.

 

[Dravonic]

Both cars were done with the in-game editor just as all the others. I don't see why people have to think Turn10 used a PC editor for the LCE cars considering that the community has done far more complex creations. Hell, even the 2 FM2 cover cars (DB9 & 350Z) you get were done long before by the community in FM2's editor, so I have no idea why a PC editor would be needed.

The font argument doesn't really hold a lot of ground as again, many people created their own fonts through the in-game editor.

I don't know about these goofy cars, but I know that the race car liveries included in the game are done in a PC. Like PD does, and anyone else.

 

[regnar]

If your wandering how some of the complex liverys are done, look at this video, some are tracing there designs.

 

[McLaren]

I don't know about these goofy cars, but I know that the race car liveries included in the game are done in a PC. Like PD does, and anyone else.

Well, of course, those are. They're licensed race cars that are being expected to be right to a certain degree.

But, cars like the Pre-Order R8 V10 & what not are all done in-game.

 

[DrTrouserPlank]

I don't know about these goofy cars, but I know that the race car liveries included in the game are done in a PC. Like PD does, and anyone else.

Weird quote system on this forum so I can't quote the posts I want.

I never meant to imply that 1) people hadn't created very elaborate designs using the in-game editor, nor 2) Said that any designs released by Turn10 weren't able to be replicated using the in-game editor. I was merely stating that the in-game editor was a simplified (for want of words) GUI that was similar to that used by the programmers when they were designing the more intricate custom liveries.

A lot of this game (like many other console games) is designed using a simulated environment on a PC and ported to the console. During that design process it is naive to think that a lot of work on the car's liveries hasn't been done using an equivalent, although in my opinion, slightly superior livery design environment on a PC.

 

[tfujiwara]

Want your chrome rims colored? would you like to leave your lips chrome and the middle colored?

 

[Mark T]

For some reason I can't find the track with the open hangar. Does anyone know where it is?