Forza Motorsport 3

[Stevisiov]

But as mentioned I preferr formula cars that rely more on mechanical rather then aerodynamical grip.

Compared to what? LMP's?

 

[PAPPACLART]

Allot of the reasons why we have SUV's and and 1000cc city cars is all part of the deal of T10/PD having a licence to use a manufactures cars. Manufactures don't allow there cars to be used in a game for fun, the licence cost money and it is also another opportunity for any manufacturer to have yet another outlet to advertise there products from the top to the bottom of the range. If you want Toyota GT1's in your game then it has to come with the Yaris too.


For me I just ove the diversity of cars. A bit of everything is good, besides although I like using all types of cars, I in particular like to use normal cars.

 

[McLaren]

Allot of the reasons why we have SUV's and and 1000cc city cars is all part of the deal of T10/PD having a licence to use a manufactures cars. Manufactures don't allow there cars to be used in a game for fun, the licence cost money and it is also another opportunity for any manufacturer to have yet another outlet to advertise there products from the top to the bottom of the range. If you want Toyota GT1's in your game then it has to come with the Yaris too.


For me I just ove the diversity of cars. A bit of everything is good, besides although I like using all types of cars, I in particular like to use normal cars.

Actually, no, they don't make up a lot of the reasons. Believe it or not, but many people wanted trucks/SUV's in Forza 2 (& in GT5), & Turn10 has listened. Now, I don't know Turn10's reasons for the economy cars except for Cat & Mouse, but I guarantee you PD sees them as part of automotive history & wants them in their game.

It has nothing to do with "If you want this car, you have to take this "crappy" car".

 

[oqvist]

Compared to what? LMP's?

No LMPs also have to much aerodynamical grip to be really fun so it´s a bad comparison. Quite sure they have even more downforce then FBMWs but then they are quite a bit faster as well.

Skip Barbers and Caterhams is better examples.

 

[PAPPACLART]

Actually, no, they don't make up a lot of the reasons. Believe it or not, but many people wanted trucks/SUV's in Forza 2 (& in GT5), & Turn10 has listened. Now, I don't know Turn10's reasons for the economy cars except for Cat & Mouse, but I guarantee you PD sees them as part of automotive history & wants them in their game.

It has nothing to do with "If you want this car, you have to take this "crappy" car".

We are both right, to what extent neither of us know as none of us have the facts but a few things to consider below...

Games influence car buyers, and manufacturers know this and want there cars no matter how tedius to be represented in games providing that they are shown in a good light.

GT5 will likely sell 10-15 million in it's life time, do you really think that KY and the like want Toyota Prius's in-game, nor do the fans I suspect as I don't see the Prius included in any wishlists. Of course if you ask KY he would say yes, we want the Prius but he has to say that.

If I was 18 and looking at my first car, those little Supermini's are what I would be looking at. For me I would be testing them on track, and perhaps the fastest or the one I enjoyed driving the most would be the one that I would buy or at least consider a real test drive in, no matter how realistic or true to life the results were. GT/Forza are both played by millions of existing drivers as well as many youngsters who will be drivers soon. From a marketing perspective if I was chief marketing man at Toyota, then yes I would want maximum exposure for all of the products that are offered.

Recent research has suggested that car games do influence buyers.

http://www.motorauthority.com/report-video-games-helping-to-influence-new-car-buyers.html

 

[Stevisiov]

No LMPs also have to much aerodynamical grip to be really fun so it´s a bad comparison. Quite sure they have even more downforce then FBMWs but then they are quite a bit faster as well.

Skip Barbers and Caterhams is better examples.

It was a joke, many as Formula cars tend to rely on aero grip more than your average tin top, except of course LMP's which are the biggest (non-formula) aero reliant cars I could think of at the time which used excessive aero like many formula cars do.

Of course I understand that you meant skip barber, formula ford type cars, but when I think of formula cars I get an image of an open wheeler with a big wing on the front and back with a under tray.

 

[McLaren]

Games influence car buyers, and manufacturers know this and want there cars no matter how tedius to be represented in games providing that they are shown in a good light.

If you need a game to help influence you to buy a car, you probably should be re-thinking your decisions. Although GT5/FM3 promise to deliver great physics, the buyer should still realize that they have no idea how the car actually drives, feels, etc. in the real world. At most, it should perk your interest to see the car, not influence you to buy it.

GT5 will likely sell 10-15 million in it's life time, do you really think that KY and the like want Toyota Prius's in-game, nor do the fans I suspect as I don't see the Prius included in any wishlists. Of course if you ask KY he would say yes, we want the Prius but he has to say that.

Yes, yes I do. If you paid any attention to KY, you'd see he's pretty much set on including nearly any & every car he can acquire. I'm pretty sure he didn't have to sign a contract that says, "If you want the R34 GT-R, you have to also take the R34 GT-R V-Spec, V-Spec II, Midnight Purple, etc., etc."

If I was 18 and looking at my first car, those little Supermini's are what I would be looking at. For me I would be testing them on track, and perhaps the fastest or the one I enjoyed driving the most would be the one that I would buy or at least consider a real test drive in, no matter how realistic or true to life the results were. GT/Forza are both played by millions of existing drivers as well as many youngsters who will be drivers soon. From a marketing perspective if I was chief marketing man at Toyota, then yes I would want maximum exposure for all of the products that are offered.

That hardly means if you want 1 car, you have to have the other. You're just speculating that developers are forced to take on other cars.

 

[phil-t]

With regards to the cars, I think the way both developers have approached it so far has been OK.

I love GT's approach with having a massive selection of cars that I can just jump in and drive. Clearly with PD's resources (assumed) you can see how they can consistently do this.

I also love FM's approach of less cars, but these are 'base' cars that are then infinitely upgradable (in the main). My best time on FM2 was keeping my Golf GTi MKII, and running it against the supercars around the ring.. I had to make it 4WD with the 3.2V6 and twin turbo's to achieve that, but with all the suspension/diffs added on top it was a total hoot to drive..

Since no doubt T10 are 'smaller' in terms of developer resources, and clearly have these 'short' dev cycles, this approach suits them better.

I don't see the whole number of cars as an issue on either side, it suits the aims of the developer, and provides a good experience albeit in different ways for us, the consumer..

 

[Jay]

Hmm I don't know how much smaller Turn 10 dev team is (if at all) but I know they do outsource work to other development teams to make up the best they can.

 

[myke6699]

Hmm I don't know how much smaller Turn 10 dev team is (if at all) but I know they do outsource work to other development teams to make up the best they can.

It's company called RABCAT, an Austrian 3D game developer who's also working on TDU2 for the 360. I believe they're doing a very small portion of the car modelling.

 

[PAPPACLART]

If you need a game to help influence you to buy a car, you probably should be re-thinking your decisions. Although GT5/FM3 promise to deliver great physics, the buyer should still realize that they have no idea how the car actually drives, feels, etc. in the real world. At most, it should perk your interest to see the car, not influence you to buy it.

Well believe it or not people are influenced; it is a widely agreed fact! Companies have many ways in which to influence people to buy things, just look at the many adverts you see on TV, some of them are so stupid and almost have no relation to the product, but people go out and buy them in droves. According to Shampoo adverts, my hair needs 'protecting', from what I ask? But these fears are put in our heads and we go out and do irrational things on the back of it!! I can see that the chance to drive a car I may want to buy via a car simulation game a good means of advertising, and perhaps influencing me to buy, and in allot of cases can actually be more powerful then an advert on TV telling me to buy it.

Personally I would always read magazine reviews, ask the opinions of other etc before buying a car, and If the car I wanted to buy was available to test drive in GT/Forza, then perhaps to a degree this may have an influence, to what degree is dependent on the brain size of the individual, but nonetheless people have bought cars and other items via much weaker outlets of advertising.

Yes, yes I do. If you paid any attention to KY, you'd see he's pretty much set on including nearly any & every car he can acquire. I'm pretty sure he didn't have to sign a contract that says, "If you want the R34 GT-R, you have to also take the R34 GT-R V-Spec, V-Spec II, Midnight Purple, etc., etc."

In most cases you are correct, but again, manufactures will ensure that a good representation of there products are included as part of the licence agreement otherwise why would they allow there cars included in the game...you think just for the licence fee alone? No for marketing purposes also!

That hardly means if you want 1 car, you have to have the other. You're just speculating that developers are forced to take on other cars.

Yes I am specualting just as you are! they are not forced as such, but any licence will include various cars in the range, and I am sure KY and the like are not going to say 'no' to more cars, just that KY would not specifically be asking for Yaris's and Prius's and if he did they would never be even close to the top of the must have list.


PS

Why do you think manufactures don't really like damage to there cars in games? Bad marketing they would tell you I would guess! So marketing and promotion of there products is important, and the bigger the market penetration with as wide a range of models the better for them.

Look at the promotion/collabiration between Audi and T10 with the New V10 R8, Nothing is for free you know, 'want our cars in your game' then you help us promote them, big time like with the R8 or small time with just the inclususion of a pointless 1000cc economy car. As TESCO says, every little helps!

 

[McLaren]

Well believe it or not people are influenced; it is a widely agreed fact! Companies have many ways in which to influence people to buy things, just look at the many adverts you see on TV, some of them are so stupid and almost have no relation to the product, but people go out and buy them in droves. According to Shampoo adverts, my hair needs 'protecting', from what I ask? But these fears are put in our heads and we go out and do irrational things on the back of it!! I can see that the chance to drive a car I may want to buy via a car simulation game a good means of advertising, and perhaps influencing me to buy, and in allot of cases can actually be more powerful then an advert on TV telling me to buy it.

Adverts & games are not the same. You are bringing up a form of marketing that's sole purpose is to get people to buy things. Video games, however, are not, used to influence people. The ads in them, however, are.

In most cases you are correct, but again, manufactures will ensure that a good representation of there products are included as part of the licence agreement otherwise why would they allow there cars included in the game...you think just for the licence fee alone? No for marketing purposes also!

Um, we all already know manufacturers want a good representation of their cars. That still doesn't mean Polyphony don't want Prius' & what not.

Yes I am specualting just as you are! they are not forced as such, but any licence will include various cars in the range, and I am sure KY and the like are not going to say 'no' to more cars, just that KY would not specifically be asking for Yaris's and Prius's and if he did they would never be even close to the top of the must have list.

No, the licenses won't necessarily. Lamborghini sold the license to several of its car to Eden Studios for TDU. Eden however, only picked they wanted; they were not obligated to include the others.

 

[PAPPACLART]

Adverts & games are not the same. You are bringing up a form of marketing that's sole purpose is to get people to buy things. Video games, however, are not, used to influence people. The ads in them, however, are.

So you have never heard of indirect marketing, and you think that a car manufacturer will miss an opportunity to indirectly market there cars through a game to an audience of potentially many millions of car enthusiasts?

I never said it was the sole/only reason for a manufacturer to give licence rights so that PD/T10 use there cars just so that they can sell them, what I am saying is that it is a great way to potentially promote there cars and because of this, they may directly or in directly insist on many less favourable models being included, in which case I am willing to accept that KY did not say no to this, he just went along with and maybe had the attitude and thinking - the more the merrier....Though It would not suprise me if he is a little pissed at having to model all the interiors of all the many eco boxes, thus adding a good few extra months in game development.

Remember, companies will pay 10s of thousand of £$ to have there logo on a bill board or being worn on the head of a sports star, just so the millions of viewers who are tuned in to an event can see the logo for a few seconds/mins, can't you see why a manufactuer would want as much of there cars being exposed in a game as possible especially with the potential millions of eyes that will see?

Another thing, why do you think NASCAR is in GT5? one because lots wanted it, 2 becuuse PD new it will get the American Vote and could increase sales in the States, and finally NASCAR as a sport can benefit because of exposure to the European and Japanses markets , both places of which have little appreciation for NASCAR. There often more said and done behind the scenes than meets the eye. Alterior motvies :-)

Um, we all already know manufacturers want a good representation of their cars. That still doesn't mean Polyphony don't want Prius' & what not.

Maybe you are right but it does not mean to say that they (PD) didn't have to have those cars, regardles if they (PD) made a point of not wanting those cars or not - or even if they did want them they would of got them all anyway. Sometimes you just accept what you are given if you want a Mazda 787 then if it comes wrapped with a nice little eco warrior then so be it.

No, the licenses won't necessarily. Lamborghini sold the license to several of its car to Eden Studios for TDU. Eden however, only picked they wanted; they were not obligated to include the others.

Perhaps you are right there too, though Lamborghini are just one manufacturer. If I remeber correctly there are dozens of manufactures with a presence in many of the cars games we play so that one example you use for Lamborgini does not necessarily apply to all of them as I am sure many have there own intentions/motives in what they want for there licence money, and mabe lamborghini were happy with that deal or maybe the licence was bought and paid for on a per car basis with other terms who knows?

 

[oqvist]

There is several others too that make the car models for turn 10 and polyphony I suspect. Not just companies but freelancers

As for advertizing we have volvo - the game. Entirely for free and not much ads. So yes finally the car manufacturers start to wake up and aren´t impossible at all about damage either. I think they realized that it´s not bad PR to allow damage on the cars if it ends up people having more fun driving it. I am quite sure most people understand that cars aren´t indestructable.

 

[McLaren]

Maybe you are right but it does not mean to say that they (PD) didn't have to have those cars, regardles if they (PD) made a point of not wanting those cars or not - or even if they did want them they would of got them all anyway. Sometimes you just accept what you are given if you want a Mazda 787 then if it comes wrapped with a nice little eco warrior then so be it.

Except you don't have any proof that's how the deal went. Perhaps it is, perhaps it wasn't, but you keep trying to insinuate it was.

Perhaps you are right there too, though Lamborghini are just one manufacturer. If I remeber correctly there are dozens of manufactures with a presence in many of the cars games we play so that one example you use for Lamborgini does not necessarily apply to all of them as I am sure many have there own intentions/motives in what they want for there licence money, and mabe lamborghini were happy with that deal or maybe the licence was bought and paid for on a per car basis with other terms who knows?

I never said my example stood for all manufacturers. It was to show you that just because you are given the licenses to multiple cars does not always mean you have to use them all.

However, the problem with your argument is that you aren't showing anything that says that's what other manufacturers are or aren't doing. All you're doing is continuing speculate & quite frankly, speculation discussions bore me.

Thus, I really have no desire to continue on this discussion of what deals the manufacturers are asking of Turn10, Polyphony, or anyone else when it comes to the cars.

 

[PAPPACLART]

Except you don't have any proof that's how the deal went. Perhaps it is, perhaps it wasn't, but you keep trying to insinuate it was.

Yes I do not have proof, just and eduacted guess that has shaped/formed my opinion into what it is! (this is normal and are how allot of opions materialise) I can't prove that God exists but it does not stop people believing that he does.

I never said my example stood for all manufacturers. It was to show you that just because you are given the licenses to multiple cars does not always mean you have to use them all.

You also never said that your example did not apply to all manufactures - hence the reason I said what I said?

However, the problem with your argument is that you aren't showing anything that says that's what other manufacturers are or aren't doing. All you're doing is continuing speculate & quite frankly, speculation discussions bore me.

You must be boring yourself as you have been doing your fair share of counter speculating my speculation!!! lol

Thus, I really have no desire to continue on this discussion of what deals the manufacturers are asking of Turn10, Polyphony, or anyone else when it comes to the cars.

If you read what I have said, I have lots of 'if's' and ‘Buts’!! Yes I am speculating, but is it not true that just as many opinions are born out of speculation, or if not, then perceived fact, compared to actual fact...jeez welcome to GTPlanet - the capital of speculation...if you don't like it then I am surprised you are a member here as the vast majority of people via threads and posts form what they see as concrete opinions which are inadvertently based on very little fact!

Equally as you are, I may be speculating like allot on this forum, but at least I have provided a more justifiable cause/motive to back up my speculation, which is more than you have done. You challenged me to this debate, and now you no longer want to continue. I smell a win



Jeez, can't anybody have an opinion without having to prove everything?

 

[McLaren]

Yes I do not have proof, just and eduacted guess that has shaped/formed my opinion into what it is! (this is normal and are how allot of opions materialise) I can't prove that God exists but it does not stop people believing that he does.

Your educated guess comes you just believing that eco-cars are only in because the developers were forced to include them.

The major problem with this "educated" guess is that nowhere has this been suggested as the reason for eco-cars being included. There is no evidence that says they were forced to be included or the developers actually want them, so stop acting as if you know they are.

You also never said that your example did not apply to all manufactures - hence the reason I said what I said?

Use common sense next time.

You must be boring yourself as you have been doing your fair share of counter speculating my speculation!!! lol

My posts are only showing where you're on the verge of presenting your "educated" guess as an "educated" fact. Show evidence where the developers might have been "forced" to include certain cars or drop the subject.

The rest of your post is mindless dribble to me.

 

[PAPPACLART]

Your educated guess comes you just believing that eco-cars are only in because the developers were forced to include them.

Go back and read, I never said 100% catergorically that they were forced, as I have already said there are lots of ''ifs'' ''buts'' and ''maybe's'' in what I have said becuase I am specualting!!

The major problem with this "educated" guess is that nowhere has this been suggested as the reason for eco-cars being included. There is no evidence that says they were forced to be included or the developers actually want them, so stop acting as if you know they are.

Toyota Yaris = Eco car = Big seller for Toyota + inclusion in GT5 = lots of great value-for-money advertising to millions of car enthusiast and potential customers! There is your reason, I thought you understood that?

You really are showing yourself up now. I never claimed what I have said to be fact, it Is my OPINION or what I BELIEVE to be fact based upon A B and C. There is often no definate ''fact'' to an opinion, only a belief based on upon facts/indirect facts/assumed facts. Nor can an opinion always be proven, as If I was to think for instance that you was a retard, how could I prove that? Just my opinion huh? And somebody else may share another opinion and think you are a cool dude, which I am sure that you are.

Use common sense next time.

I am using lots of common sense, and given you many examples to back up my opinion/specualtion, I think it is you that has to reconsider.

My posts are only showing where you're on the verge of presenting your "educated" guess as an "educated" fact. Show evidence where the developers might have been "forced" to include certain cars or drop the subject.

Yes, at least you understand one thing I have said, of course my point is to present my educated guess/opinion to you as fact, becuase I want you to share my opinion on the subject, that is the whole point of having an opinion and sharing it with others! I WANT YOU TO BELIEVE!!! haha

As evidence, I have already shown you a little article about how car games sell cars, not to mention my speculative evidence.

The rest of your post is mindless dribble to me.

Well I am sorry if you are having trouble understanding me, perhaps if I was not up all night working, then I may make a little more sense. Instead of picking my posts apart and looking for proof, why don't you just dissagree with my opinion?


Anyway, this thread is going way off topic lol, if you want to continue this how about we take it to PM's because the Admins/mods will be here shortly hehe

 

[H3avyM3tal]

Right, because if I see Toyota in the game, the first car I would try or be interested in is the Yaris.

Come on, get real. The cars that do the advertising in a racing game are not cars like the Yaris.

 

[Jay]

Hey! I know a certain someone who is dying to get a pink Yaris in GT5.

 

[McLaren]

Go back and read, I never said 100% catergorically that they were forced, as I have already said there are lots of ''ifs'' ''buts'' and ''maybe's'' in what I have said becuase I am specualting!!

Toyota Yaris = Eco car = Big seller for Toyota + inclusion in GT5 = lots of great value-for-money advertising to millions of car enthusiast and potential customers! There is your reason, I thought you understood that?

Except you've given nothing to base that opinion on; nothing has ever suggested that's the reason for the Yaris inclusion.

At this point though, you'll never show anything that lead you to that belief because you seem to intent on repeating yourself that Car A is only in because of Car B.

You really are showing yourself up now. I never claimed what I have said to be fact, it Is my OPINION or what I BELIEVE to be fact based upon A B and C. There is often no definate ''fact'' to an opinion, only a belief based on upon facts/indirect facts/assumed facts. Nor can an opinion always be proven, as If I was to think for instance that you was a retard, how could I prove that? Just my opinion huh? And somebody else may share another opinion and think you are a cool dude, which I am sure that you are.

But what sort of evidence has lead you to believe Car A is in because of Car B? I've asked for this quite a few times already & you continue to just say the samething over & over.

I am using lots of common sense, and given you many examples to back up my opinion/specualtion, I think it is you that has to reconsider.

You haven't given any examples except of what you assume is how the deals were done between manufacturers.

As evidence, I have already shown you a little article about how car games sell cars, not to mention my speculative evidence.

And I've stated my opinion that if a game is needed to influence you, then you should re-think your decisions. Games are far, far too different to be considered influential.

As for the article, it only states games influence car buyers. But nowhere, has it made any claim that the cars are in because the developers are forced to.

Anyway, this thread is going way off topic lol, if you want to continue this how about we take it to PM's because the Admins/mods will be here shortly hehe

Why would I want to continue to listen to you repeat yourself over & over? No thank you, do no PM me for this discussion.

 

[Dave A]

The reason these cars are in the games is because the game makers want them. There are plenty of games with nothing but performance cars and/or supercars. GT and Forza are different, GT started off this "every car is worth including" from the moment the idea was in Kaz's mind. This was reflected when he passed his game idea to Sony execs and it simply read "I want to drive my car in a video game", he wasn't referring to himself rather it was a collective "my", me you, him, the execs. The vision for GT is to include everything and that decision comes from Kaz.

Here's an important point, a manufacturer cannot force PD or Turn 10 to include anything in the game, they can ask but they can't force them to include a car if they don't want to. If the manufacturer want's to use the developers's product as an avenue for thier own advertising then it would no longer be the developer licensing the cars from the manufacturers, it would be the manufacturers paying the developer a marketing fee to have thier products in the game. Much like product placement in a movie, the movie producers don't pay for the product to be advertised in the film, rather they get paid for it to be in.

It's the same situation with games, now you can say (and I think we can all agree) that games like Gran Turismo and Forza are to a degree advertising the cars they contain and behind closed doors the manufacturers probably (in some cases definitely) agree to this as well. But when it comes to the official business of licensing the cars to the developers etc they will not turn it into an advertising contract simply because the roles are then reversed as to who will pay who money.

If you're developing a new version of a highly popular game and you want to license a car from a manufacturer and the manufacturer then says "ok but you have to include this, this and that car to promote our comapny" then you would simply turn round and say "we don't really want thoes cars in the game, but if your desperate for us to advertise for you, you pay us an advertising fee instead". That's simplified, but the gist is there.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Toyota Yaris = Eco car = Big seller for Toyota + inclusion in GT5 = lots of great value-for-money advertising to millions of car enthusiast and potential customers! There is your reason, I thought you understood that?

I'm pretty sure that anybody who would drive the Yaris in GT5 wouldn't even consider going for a real drive.

 

[Drillah]

...and If the car I wanted to buy was available to test drive in GT/Forza, then perhaps to a degree this may have an influence, to what degree is dependent on the brain size of the individual...

That's funny. And true too I think.
If adverts of any medium are a large or sole influence to you to the point of giving up your money then you really need financial advice/assistance.
The school of 'common sense' is unfortunately not taught, it is learned.

 

[Chronos]

Design walk-through of Forza 3.

Seems new and is 6 mins long.

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/design-walkthrough-forza-motorsport/53172

 

[Delphic Reason]

Just more marketing jargon. Nothing really new talked about.

That one button driving mode is comical to say the least. Making your game accessible to many different types of gamers is admirable, but one button for a racing game? That's dumbing it down a bit too much.

 

[tfujiwara]

The rollover is kind of dumb. I cant see shadows when its flipping. Though I'll doubt I'll flip my cars when I'm playing.

Even the rollover on GTA IV is a bit more cool than FM3's. Feel more like real. Slow and more body dents

 

[McLaren]

Even the rollover on GTA IV is a bit more cool than FM3's. Feel more like real. Slow and more body dents

A tad OT, but the damage in GTA just seems to be "miles" ahead of most games. I admit, it's not always realistic, but who here doesn't love seeing what a Bus can do a Taxi when it runs a red light full speed? The amount of detail & obstruction that can be done is amazing in GTA.

My 2 cents.

 

[paskowitz]

A tad OT, but the damage in GTA just seems to be "miles" ahead of most games. I admit, it's not always realistic, but who here doesn't love seeing what a Bus can do a Taxi when it runs a red light full speed? The amount of detail & obstruction that can be done is amazing in GTA.

My 2 cents.

Ya know, I agree 100%. The car damage in GTA is pretty good. Especially for GTA... considering its not a racing sim. When I crash a car its looks well, like I crashed it. Parts fly off, stuff is bent etc. If GT5 or any racing "sim" had GTAIV's level of damage I would be pretty psyched.

 

[Stevisiov]

GTA has freedom of damage because it doesn't use licensed cars, much like burnout. It's not that GT or Forza can't do fairly realistic damage, its just that they aren't allowed by some manufacturers