Forza Motorsport 3

[Jay]

I hope we can at least do a burnout and stage for the drag race, as well as actually having to leave the lights when the light goes green and being able to get a red light, not just holding the throttle until the game lets you move.

No burnout and staging as confirmed in the gamespot interview, not sure about red lighting.

I am suprised considering drag racing is a proper event this time that Turn 10 didn't atleast include drag radials.

 

[Eric.]

Why is something like that so hard to implement? It can add so much variation to a race by the tire temp varying, exactly where you've staged, and of course the RT. This just becomes a simple, straight, point to point race between two cars. No thought put into it at all, just an extra "feature" since point to points returned.

 

[Jay]

The guy in the interview said they started off with the whole burnout and staging idea but it "didn't feel like Forza", and the tyres are going to be optimum temperature already.

 

[TrievelA7X]

NFS Pro Drift had Tire warm-up.

 

[oqvist]

The guy in the interview said they started off with the whole burnout and staging idea but it "didn't feel like Forza", and the tyres are going to be optimum temperature already.

My take on it is that it´s a bit of a after thought and they would have to rewrite some of the tire modelling. It wouldn´t feel realistic or take to much time to implement well...

Thus "It didn´t feel like Forza" . I mean really what wouldn´t feel Forza about heating up your tires for drag racing? I mean they do simulate heat build up quite well for street racing in Forza 2. Take a lap or two to get heat into the tires

I have hard time seeing even a hardcore simulation of drag racing being really fun in a sim. And 0-100 doesn´t say everything about how fast a car is on a racing track. I mean it´s all about the speed, G-forces and ear blistering sound and being close to death in real life... All which is quite hard to simulate on a console or PC where you are immortal lol

As for being faster with a manual clutch sure it´s gamey but it´s more fun and should be encouraged . I am quite sure I will still be slower overall for circuit racing anyway since I am so used to LFB in my sims that just feature dedicated race cars pretty much.

Strange how hard it´s to readapt to LFS for example despite right foot braking all the time in my real cars. But well I hardly race them on the limit lol. It´s just easier to balance the car if you can use throttle during braking if you happen to start to lock up.

 

[MagpieRacer]

With the whole car models thing, perhaps the Forza guys have actually spent more effort with thee physics gameplay and so on than worrying about how rounded the underside of the wheel arches look on the F430.....

 

[Eric.]

With the whole car models thing, perhaps the Forza guys have actually spent more effort with thee physics gameplay and so on than worrying about how rounded the underside of the wheel arches look on the F430.....

The same guys doing the modeling aren't also going to be doing the physics.

 

[Joey D]

The same guys doing the modeling aren't also going to be doing the physics.

It's still developmental resources though. There is only a finite amount of money and time for most projects.

 

[oqvist]

turn10 have always been more biased to physics then PD. Also helped being run on better systems then GT of course. PS and PS 2 is simply not powerful enough for a racing simulation. But still Forza 2 took less short cuts then GT 5 Prologue in term of physics but more in term of graphics. As for money well both have quite deep pockets backed by MS and Sony but yes I expect PD to spend more money/resources on the graphics then turn 10.

 

[McLaren]

It's still developmental resources though. There is only a finite amount of money and time for most projects.

There's obviously enough if Microsoft has hired a 3rd party to model the cars while it continues to pay Turn10 to work on the rest of the game.

As for the models, I'm failing to see how the proportions & lines can look so off with 1 million polys when PD can achieve it with 200-300,000.

 

[Rykon Zero]

I personally don't care about graphics, as long as the cars look right. then they can have 10,000 polies, or 100,000. All I really care about is the gameplay itself.

 

[KSaiyu]

turn10 have always been more biased to physics then PD. Also helped being run on better systems then GT of course. PS and PS 2 is simply not powerful enough for a racing simulation. But still Forza 2 took less short cuts then GT 5 Prologue in term of physics but more in term of graphics. As for money well both have quite deep pockets backed by MS and Sony but yes I expect PD to spend more money/resources on the graphics then turn 10.

So you're saying the game that has two physics modes, 3 classes of tyres with subdivisions and controllable assists took a "shortcut" in physics modelling?

 

[WolfRacer543]

So you're saying the game that has two physics modes, 3 classes of tyres with subdivisions and controllable assists took a "shortcut" in physics modelling?

GTR evo has, what, 2 different tyres? So did GTR evo take more shortcuts on physics than GT5P?

 

[KSaiyu]

I'm trying to understand what he means by shortcuts when comparing it to the game that has probably made the biggest leap in the franchise's history in terms of physics, not just in options available but in strength of the simulation (still obviously not perfect). Turn 10 have been more biased to telemetry of their physics at work, I could agree with but I'd like to see the proof that F2 took less shortcuts than GT5 when modelling the physics.

 

[Dave A]

Anyone who says GT5 took shortcuts in the physics deparment is just either guessing or being deliberately argumentative. GT5's physics engine for a console races is a brilliant effort. The only thing I would openly criticise is that sometimes it can be hard to feel the limits through the controller but even then it's more a matter of practise (which I did and now I'm confortable finding them).

 

[Stevisiov]

Anyone who says GT5 took shortcuts in the physics deparment is just either guessing or being deliberately argumentative. GT5's physics engine for a console races is a brilliant effort. The only thing I would openly criticise is that sometimes it can be hard to feel the limits through the controller but even then it's more a matter of practise (which I did and now I'm confortable finding them).

I would also criticize the (still poor) low speed physics, powerful FF cars don't torque steer, infact you can pretty much hard launch any car in GT5P and the car moves from the line in a perfectly straight line even on a cambered road even though the wheels have broken traction. You still can't do real doughnuts although you can get much closer than you could do in GT4. Of course these issue disappear over 20mph or so depending on the car an tyres so its not a huge issue, mainly because the you rarely travel under 20mph in a racing situation.

 

[Jay]

and the car moves from the line in a perfectly straight line even on a cambered road even though the wheels have broken traction.

This part I don't agree with (the cambered road), I noticed it takes very little road camber to get the car to drift offline when breaking traction. I agree when the car is on a flat surface parallel to the car it will always go straight (in GT5P) but add some off camber surface and the car slides offline.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Not sure how you guys like the Fm3 version of the F430 better (visually), it's clearly inaccurate, but whatever floats your boat.

Inaccurate in your opinion of course.

After having GT5p now for 3 weeks, I have to say I am rather enjoying it (though I am finding A class difficult).

Forza 2 has substantially more physics going on though. I assume GT5 will add a buttload when it's released.

 

[Jay]

Inaccurate in your opinion of course.

Not really, going by real life picture comparisons, look at the pictures and the areas Chronos pointed out, I never noticed the inaccuracys until I looked for them (after Chronos post) but they're clear now I have found them. I did the same search over the GT5P model and can't find any inaccuracys like that.


Can you explain further on how FM2 has substantially more physics going on? I've never played FM2 for more than 10 minutes, have seen plenty of footage but without some sitdown time I can't really comment on it myself.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Not really, going by real life picture comparisons, look at the pictures and the areas Chronos pointed out, I never noticed the inaccuracys until I looked for them (after Chronos post) but they're clear now I have found them. I did the same search over the GT5P model and can't find any inaccuracys like that.

We will agree to disagree.

Can you explain further on how FM2 has substantially more physics going on? I've never played FM2 for more than 10 minutes, have seen plenty of footage but without some sitdown time I can't really comment on it myself.

In my experience so far (3 weeks with GT5p), I have noticed:

Tire Tracks - Forza remembers where your tires leave marks, be it from burnouts, sliding, skidding or from spinouts, and does this for all 8 cars on the track (AI or online with live people) for the duration of the race. I haven't seen this in GT5p.

Suspension - I have found that if I hit a wall or vehicle just right that the suspension has different levels of failure. Depending on how hard the hit is, the car will pull left or right a little (or a lot) depending on how bad it is. It also effects the downforce and tread wear on the tires that are pulling.

Shifting - I have found that if I over rev or damage my transmission or clutch in Forza 2, certain gears will skip, or the car will no longer redline, or some of the gears are stretched out. Depending on the severity, I have seen it where I can't even get the car into reverse.

Aerodynamics - I have found that, depending on the particular piece, if I lose any of my aero kit, the car handles differently. I end up getting either more downforce in the rear and less up front, or more in the front and less in the back. Top end is reduced, and cornering is hampered.

Tire wear - Maybe I just haven't felt it, but in GT5p, do the tires ever heat up and wear off? I haven't experienced it if it does. In Forza 3, you can bring up the tire wear and tire temps into your hud to monitor them. You can warm up the tires during warm up laps during online sessions before you go with a rolling start race. As the game progresses and the tires wear more, the car gets squirmy, braking is reduced as it tends to slide more, and feed back from the track in the FF changes. Going into the pits or pulling a black/red flag and waiting also brings the tires back to their cold temps.

And then, all the physics involved with the different parts you can buy and swap out. It changes the ride, the accelerations, the pull, the cornering and dipping, bottoming out, rumble strip vibration.

However, it seems that both games do very well with the draft physics (though I love the GT5p drafting sound in cockpit view, as everything quiets down when you get in the draft). Forza 2 just gives you a visual indicator when you are drafting). They both offer great feedback for over and understeer physics. GT5p has better "car weight" physics in my experience though. The cars actually FEEL heavy (because they are). I tend to feel the same weight when I am in a Cobalt or a Z06 in Forza 2.

Those are just off the top of my head right now. I just noticed a different focus in each game.

That said, I am LOVING GT5p. Oh, and I will probably NEVER pass A-8 passing all 16 cars

 

[KSaiyu]

To be fair most of those are damage related, not that that gives GT5 a free pass but we can be optimistic there will be some form of damage in GT5.

 

[Bogie 19th]

To be fair most of those are damage related, not that that gives GT5 a free pass but we can be optimistic there will be some form of damage in GT5.

I know they are damage related, and I am sure GT5 will get them. But I was just mentioning it about GT5p and Forza 2 and my personal (yet short) experience with GT5p so far. Physics are physics and they asked!

 

[Dave A]

As said, thoes are damage related. They don't equate to there being more physics going on because the truth is GT5 is processing a lot more calculations over a larger number of variables per second than Forza 2 is. Having the car start to steer left if you hit a wall is just the game manipulating the cars setup on the fly. Again, having the game mess the gears up, all the actual code is doing is messing with the ratios to the point of simply removing a gear altogether in some instances. Besides that, Forza's damamge modelling isn't accurate, just because a car can be dented doesn't mean it's automatically more realistic than a game where the car can't be dented. If the damage is miles away from what will really happen then it's still not realistic. I understand the whole manufacturers won't allow games to show their cars being destrioyed to the extent that real crashes wouldleave them but you can still make what you can do as realistic as you can, Forza 2 didn't do that.

The only area people seem to concentrate on when they discuss Forza v GT physics wise is damage, when it comes to driving the cars, the handling etc I think it's pretty clear that GT5 is better than Forza 2 in terms of realism. Forza 3 might be better than GT5, who's to say who hasn't driven the game yet.

 

[Bogie 19th]

I wasn't only talking damage physics. And I haven't seen more physics per second feedback in GT5p than I have seen in Forza 2. It's my understanding that F2 is processing more over more variables, which is obviously the case.

And no, you are wrong about just a "setup change" for the damages. When the car is pulling to the left or right, it's affecting the feedback in the wheel, it's wearing the tires unevenly, you get a different pull on the rumble strips, you get more resistance pushing forward against the damaged camber. That is just one example. Same goes for the gears. Once the computer is told to remove/change the gear setup, that affects many physics while trying to race with missing gears or wrong gearing. We are not just talking about turning these features on/off.

Forza's modeling damage and physics related to the damage is the best I have seen on consoles to date (though Race Pro might actually be the victor, it's really hard to say..that is a different beast all together). I would say that based on my first 3 weeks, GT5p's realism is NOT more realistic than Forza 2. I think it's pretty clear that Forza 2 is the victor there.

That isn't to say that GT5 will add all that though. I hope they do, because I am excited.

 

[Dave A]

I wasn't only talking damage physics. And I haven't seen more physics per second feedback in GT5p than I have seen in Forza 2. It's my understanding that F2 is processing more over more variables, which is obviously the case.

Why is that obvious?

And no, you are wrong about just a "setup change" for the damages. When the car is pulling to the left or right, it's affecting the feedback in the wheel, it's wearing the tires unevenly, you get a different pull on the rumble strips, you get more resistance pushing forward against the damaged camber. That is just one example.

Okay te feeback you get through the controllers vibrations is nothing to do with the physics, that's just a program that tells the pad vibrate hard here, soft there etc. The rest of it absolutely just a change int he cars setup, it's a bigger change than the game wil allow you to make when setting the car up for the race. But that's effectively all a game does when you knock a wheel out of alignment, of break a suspension spring, it just changes setting behind the scenes. The game doesn't phsically work out everything, games consoles arn't powerful enough to do that yet.

Forza's modeling damage and physics related to the damage is the best I have seen on consoles to date (though Race Pro might actually be the victor, it's really hard to say..that is a different beast all together). I would say that based on my first 3 weeks, GT5p's realism is NOT more realistic than Forza 2. I think it's pretty clear that Forza 2 is the victor there.

If you're basing the idea that Forza 2 is more realistic than GT5 purely because Forza 2 has damage then whatever. I'm not interested in damage when the actual driving model of the cars isn't as good. Get the driving physcis right and then do damage. Now I'm not saying Forza 2 is bad in this regard, I enjoyed it more than GT4 and I think in terms of physics Forza 2 is on a par with GT4. But going back to damage, Forza 2 s a poor show of damage imo, games like Grid are far better though still flawed.

I am not knocking Forza 2, and I do think and hope Forza 3 will be a great game, I enjoyed Forza 2 but itsn't a brand new game. The time PD have spent on GT5 wasn't spent watching the washing machine going round. GT5 doesn't have damage no, but it simulates driving the car better, if you take away the effects of crashing into another car or a wall GT5 has Forza 2 beat in every regard. I'm not going to go into more detail on this because there has been countless discussion on the matter and we have had people discussing it who a well and truely in the know. If you are interested in discussing it further then it might be worth your while digging up one of the threads but there's a couple of deep posts around here that are really interesting a worth a read if you can find them 👍.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Thanks Dave. I have been researching GT5p for a couple years now, on forums, websites, and more. I have also a small history of racing in real life, though not extensive.

We will just have to agree to disagree. Thanks for taking the time to respond in kind however, I appreciate it.

 

[Dave A]

No problem, we can agree to dissagree on this matter, it doesn't look like either of us are ready to budge yet anyway . I'm sure we're both in agreement that Froza 3 will most likely be a great game.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Forza 3 AND GT5 will be great games!

(i hope!)

 

[oqvist]

With physics I mean handling. What is the point of trying to evaluate physics enabling aids btw?

Maybe GT 5 P have more realistic ABS or traction control I admit I have never practised using even those aids .

I haven´t run the previous GT titles much. I would agree that the Prologue from the little I have run is a big step in the right direction. I just feel that the Prologue is not up there with Forza 2 yet. It surely doesn´t spend as much resources on the physics calculations. This has nothing to do with the number of different tire options. I am one that rather have 10 superbly modelled cars then 500 average modelled cars for example.

It does feel weird that you can actually spin a aston martin at 10 km/h and never even see it coming. Not saying that Forza 2 doesn´t have it quirks but overall regarding tire modelling, suspension etc it feels better

 

[Jay]

It does feel weird that you can actually spin a aston martin at 10 km/h and never even see it coming.

If you're going around a tight corner in a DB9 at 10km/h and flatten the throttle in real life you wont see it coming either, unless you expect it from experience. Cars, especially high powered rwd's with LSD's can get very violent at low speed high throttle inputs while doing tight turns.

Infact I don't think GT5P is violent enough, it allows cars to spin but not whip around like often happens in real life, which is often used as a advantage to turn in a fairly tight spot quickly after a spin.