Forza Motorsport 3

[otago]

However just because this may not seem to make sense doesn't mean they are unrealistic.

Remember, 240 km/h, air resistance is proportional V^2, car is wasting 230 HP just to manage speed constant.

My approach is very simple - until I see telemetry in game I don't take serious any claims about physics. Telemetry is very easy to implement, just show on the screen variables which are already calculated in game hundreds frames per second.

Very easy if you really calculate something and impossible if your physics is matchboxes without wheels where only G force is calculated and the rest fitted manually by some parameters.

That's why every simulator on Earth has telemetry, it's a signature and pass to the club. Without this Jeremy Clarkson could make a call personally to me and telling how awesome the game X is and more real than real life - I don't care

 

[Scaff]

Remember, 240 km/h, air resistance is proportional V^2, car is wasting 230 HP just to manage speed constant.

My approach is very simple - until I see telemetry in game I don't take serious any claims about physics. Telemetry is very easy to implement, just show on the screen variables which are already calculated in game hundreds frames per second.

Very easy if you really calculate something and impossible if your physics is matchboxes without wheels where only G force is calculated and the rest fitted manually by some parameters.

That's why every simulator on Earth has telemetry, it's a signature and pass to the club. Without this Jeremy Clarkson could make a call personally to me and telling how awesome the game X is and more real than real life - I don't care

Great. One slight problem with that is telemetry is not always acurate. The original Forza was a great example of this, the telemetry would clearly indicate when you suspension bottomed out and hit the bump stops (at which point your effective spring rate would in reality go through the roof), yet it had zero effect on the car at all.

However I notice that you haven't actually answered either of the questions I asked.


Scaff

 

[otago]

However I notice that you haven't actually answered either of the questions I asked.


Scaff

Clutch is for old people. I drive automatic

Great. Not sure what this has to do with the awful Mitsubishi Eclipse - a car where the only saving grace is its power, and it doesn't really have anywhere near enough of it to make up for the dreadful chassis and suspension. And of course can't anyway, because it's FWD only.

The best chassis and suspension you can buy for 20.000$. At 25.000$ there are some better options, not too much though.

Most of good inexpensive sporty cars vanished and even modern Civic Type R is a fake with ancient rear suspension. Looks like cars are getting only worse nowdays

 

[Cobra_NZ]

Clutch is for old people. I drive automatic

I dissagree.

 

[otago]

Suzuka off screen

http://www.taxigamer.com/Xbox_360/F...y_Lamborghini_Murcielago_LP640_on_Suzuka.html

I dissagree.

Robotic transmissions took the crown. Direct power control like with manual but without annoying clutch pedaling.

I'm not big fan of auto either, prefer to switch it manually

 

[Soju]

Suzuka looked pretty good from that little clip

 

[McLaren]

Suzuka looked pretty good from that little clip

Indeed. It seems, thank god, a lot of tracks in Forza are no longer at dawn/dusk like times.

 

[otago]

Suzuka looked pretty good from that little clip

If "little" means size there is an option to download HD at left side.

Looks very similar to Forza 2 Suzuka to me, maybe more crisp and brighter

 

[Eric.]

Okay, actually pulled this together. Eight moments from my rollover, showing the G forces on the entire car (Body Acceleration), friction from the individual tires (Friction), and the suspension's state (Suspension). 24 images stitched together, so apologies for it being about 3MB.

I'll agree with Aspect8 regarding the sticky grass. Seems to be a good explanation. If you watch the right rear tire though, it appears to clip through the ground. If you want you can pretend that's the rim digging into the ground and providing a pivot point. 💡

 

[otago]

I'll agree with Aspect8 regarding the sticky grass.

In Forza 2 it was kind of penalty, when you too far from the road car just slow down enormously on the grass.

In Forza 3 it's probably same

 

[Nigo]

One big question about FM3 that was missing in FM2 in physics.. In GT5Prologue, when you drive a Mid Engine car such as the Lotus or the F430 or Ford GT... when going on high speed curve or corner, if you lift throttle the cars behind will try to slide and you will fish tail, if you play GT5P, with a wheel , or not you know what I mean.. thats why in real life you have to always have gas pressed a little on those high speed corners at high speeds to keep the rear of car balanced...

Is it noticible in FM3 with MR or RR cars?
[...]
Just like wtih FM2 gameplay, because its easy you think its more real

I'm not sure about FM2, but to answer your question, I tried F3 demo with a pad, and there is so much understeer that lift-off oversteer is unlikely to happen. I'm no sure it's because of the upgraded physics or the super-assisted steering, but I just couldn't drift any car using weight transfer. Maybe the physics has been improved, but I don't feel "in touch" at all like I was with F2. I can just hope the super-assisted steering can be deactivated or reduced on the final product

apart from that, I'd really need to try GT5P. Everyone says GT5P is hard and fish-tailing is easy, and in all GT5P ingame-vids the cars look driven by ny grand-ma, understeering everywhere just like GT4 was. I don't get it. Besides, FM2 gameplay is much harder than any GT I played so far - well, as far as you avoid drifting, but drifting on rails is not fun anyway

in FM2 the sticky grass WAS a (ridiculous) penalty, it's just as ridiculous to see a physic flaw here

there, I'll leave you to your "roll-over physics" interesting discussion LOL btw, crashs and collisions in Forza never looked totally right; though it's 10 times better than GT, it's far from Richard Burns Rally

Overall, with the wheel it's better than I was expecting

Overall, with a pad it's much worse than I was expecting. But it's just a demo, let's give it a chance

 

[Scaff]

Clutch is for old people. I drive automatic

What you prefer or drive is totally beside the point. Please answer the questions and stop avoiding the issue.

To give you a hand here they are again.

I don't aim anybody.

You addressed it to a single person, so if it wasn't aimed at me who was it aimed at (because it clearly wasn't address to the membership as a whole)?

Car physics in depth has never been point of my interest so I have very casual view about this matter and as usual for casuals if something seems pretty obvious for me it can be completely wrong.

Say I put GTR in GT5P at 150 mph on straight and remove my foot completely off the throttle. From casual point of view you expect speed drops very rapidly cause you think like at such speed car needs around 230 HP just to overcome air resistance and traction, not to mention engine braking playing its role.

I see that car's speed in game decrease much slower than I expected cutting off the power completely at 150 mph, it's decreasing around 1-2 mph per second.

So I think I was probably wrong, and overestimate some factors or even worse - some of factors are completely out of the area, covered by my knowledge

Pop the clutch in and you would slow down even more rapidly, however simply cutting the power when still in gear means that you would also need to consider the engine speed into things as well. This one I can test and will do so if I get a chance later on.

However just because this may not seem to make sense doesn't mean they are unrealistic. Take a similar example to the one you have mentioned above. I'm driving down a hill in second gear and I do one of two things...

1. Take my feet of all the pedals
2. Depress the clutch

...which of these gives me the most control and which one will get me to the bottom of the hill quickest?

The best chassis and suspension you can buy for 20.000$. At 25.000$ there are some better options, not too much though.

Most of good inexpensive sporty cars vanished and even modern Civic Type R is a fake with ancient rear suspension. Looks like cars are getting only worse nowdays

In the US maybe (but I doubt it), but for that money plenty of cars have a lot better chassis and suspension set-up.

Scaff

 

[Cobra_NZ]

The more work one has to do to drive the car the more involved one feels and the more fun the driving is. I have a twin turbo Subaru Blitzen without a clutch pedal with the gear change buttons on the steering wheel and it changes gears so fast it's unbelievable, it even blips the throttle when in "Power" mode. The magnetic suspension goes from super soft on a normal ride to stiff in seconds as soon as the yaw control kicks in, it turns so well for a 1,5t 4 door AWD car it's just uncanny. It gets to 100kph in around 5.5s and hardly breaks a sweat. Guess what? It's not as fun as my BMW E30 325i supercharged was back in the day, nowhere near, the BMW was 10 times more fun. It was a wild car for my youth. So no, clutch pedals are not for old people. These new cars like mine or the Nissan R35 are for old people, even my grandfather could drive one with one finger.

 

[KSaiyu]

I'm not sure about FM2, but to answer your question, I tried F3 demo with a pad, and there is so much understeer that lift-off oversteer is unlikely to happen. I'm no sure it's because of the upgraded physics or the super-assisted steering, but I just couldn't drift any car using weight transfer. Maybe the physics has been improved, but I don't feel "in touch" at all like I was with F2. I can just hope the super-assisted steering can be deactivated or reduced on the final product

apart from that, I'd really need to try GT5P. Everyone says GT5P is hard and fish-tailing is easy, and in all GT5P ingame-vids the cars look driven by ny grand-ma, understeering everywhere just like GT4 was. I don't get it. Besides, FM2 gameplay is much harder than any GT I played so far - well, as far as you avoid drifting, but drifting on rails is not fun anyway

in FM2 the sticky grass WAS a (ridiculous) penalty, it's just as ridiculous to see a physic flaw here

there, I'll leave you to your "roll-over physics" interesting discussion LOL btw, crashs and collisions in Forza never looked totally right; though it's 10 times better than GT, it's far from Richard Burns Rally

Really you should use professional mode and N class tyres in Prologue to appreciate the differences in physics from GT4. I'd have preferred a drive through system to cut cheating but at least it seems like it's been toned down.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Regarding the Evo X flip.

Much as I love Youtube videos, they're not a super definitive proof of the physics of rollovers. Kamkor posted 2 vids of it happening in slightly different circumstance. Scaff posted 2 vids of it not happening in slightly different circumstances. Bit of a wash there.

Being a curious type, I fired up the demo to check to see if that area was "sticky grass". For those of you not up in the lingo Forza features sticky grass in areas to prevent corner cutting. This sticky grass dramatically slows you down, and has more effect the more off road you go (usually). It's a non-intrusive way to discourage off road driving when you don't have a race flag system. There is in fact sticky grass in both parts where the Evo rolls. You can test this by driving through those areas normally. Driving down hill the Evo cannot actually accelerate despite full engine power and a downward slope. This sticky grass exists somewhat outside the normal friction calculations, as it applies a slowing force no matter which way the wheel passes through it. I'm pretty sure those rollovers are being caused by the extra friction of the sticky grass as the car passes over it. This would exaggerate the pivot point effect you guys were discussing, possibly provoking the Evo to flip even though it perhaps would not on normal grass. It's worth noting that in testing for sticky grass I tried to get it to flip 4 or 5 times and didn't manage it, so it's not super repeatable.

The physics engine can only work within its limits. If it's detecting massive friction at the wheels and has determined that a rollover would result, it's going to roll over. The fact that the friction is being generated by the sticky grass game play device is another question/argument entirely.

Regarding the nose over tail flips etc in crashes. In a normal crash, the cars (and occupants) absorb most of the impact, crumpling up into a mangled mess. The cars in Forza behave more like Matchbox cars being rammed into each other. And that's because they don't have much choice. They can't crush, they have to remain in a single piece, so that energy has to go somewhere. If you compare it to Matchbox car (which the physics engine has to), it's not that far off. Collisions physics are a nightmare to code, if you've ever done it you'll know what I mean.

I'm pretty happy with the crash and rollover physics so far myself. Can't wait to give them a workout with some muscle cars or SUVs.

Excellent comments. While I agree that the game's stickiness for penalties could trigger a rollover, there is no question that a roll over IRL could have happened in the scenario where they showed the EVO tumble as well.

 

[Ram-Rod]

I think the sticky grass was a good way to resolve track cutting in FM2. My only complaint was that sometimes I'd run into sticky grass when only two tires where off the trick while the other two where either on the track or the rumble strip. It should be placed only in areas where cutting would be significant. That turn where the EVO flipped, for example, shouldn't need it.

 

[phil-t]

I think it's fair to say from spending some time flipping cars over in the Demo, that the roll-over physics is more an arcade add-on for 'effect'.. it's clearly totally seperate entity to the collision and grip physics etc, and it's not wildly accurate..

It's 'fun' to have it in, but I think anyone who takes these games more seriously should just ignore it as a useless 'feature' that neither adds or subtracts from the actual racing..

 

[Mark T]

Simulation racing games have always needed some kind of penalty for spinning off at high speed or having a collision. Having the car flip/roll after a heavy collision is one way to do this, although it needs to be implemented properly so that we don't have grey areas like the Evo rolling on what is presumed to be "sticky grass".

 

[Vincent Viceroy]

Hi guys,

I just wanted to gauge your thoughts on one particular aspect of Forza 3.

Does anyone else feel that, with assists off, it's easier to control cars than in Forza 2?

I've played the demo extensively and set respectable top 1% times with all the cars. During that time I've pushed each car to my limits and it was pretty clear to me that all of them seemed to be easier to correct in slides and even on grass compared to Forza 2. Last night I played a bit of Forza 2 and picked a R2 Porsche 911 for the Endurance race around Nurburgring which only reaffirmed my feeling that isn't as taxing to play.

Is this right? Do you agree? Should this be the case?

Over the years I've got used to the increasing complexity of simulation physics engines and have become accustom to being on-edge, feeling that at any time the car will let go, but I don't get that feeling as much with Forza 3 compared to Forza 2.

I like the demo though. It's a day one purchase because the game is still fantastic to play but it's the first time that I can recall where a sequel kind of tempers the experience a little.

Am I going mad?

 

[Rykon Zero]

Whee, I'm getting the demo as we speak.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

A built in far sucker!! How awesome!! Or is that the portable bathroom tube?

I used to have a 1979 mud truck with 44" tires and a 16" lift. Such a beast. I always had a problem with the carb sucking in water when I drove into lakes and swamps. So one day I ran a snorkel system from the carb through the firewall inside the cab of the truck. EXACTLY like this picture. It actually worked perfect. I could drive right into lakes and water without the truck dying. It was the best snorkel ever! It truly looked exactly like this picture too. lol!

 

[otago]

I'd really need to try GT5P. Everyone says GT5P is hard and fish-tailing is easy, and in all GT5P ingame-vids the cars look driven by ny grand-ma

Depends on car. In Forza 2 Z06 demands more skills than Ford GT. In GT5P Z06 is easier to drive than in Forza 2, but GT5P Ford GT drives almost like Forza 2 Chevelle SS, which is one of the worst cars for driving in the whole Forza 2 car list.

In the US maybe (but I doubt it), but for that money plenty of cars have a lot better chassis and suspension set-up.

Scaff

It's good too see some examples. I couldn't think anything except Mazda 3.

 

[Scaff]

It's good too see some examples. I couldn't think anything except Mazda 3.

Yes the Mazda 3 would certainly quality, as would the Focus (a much better chassis and without a doubt suspension set-up), hell you can pick up a base Mazda 6 for under $20k, I would however admit my knowledge of the US market is not as strong as that of Europe.

In which a raft of cars would slaughter it in terms of chassis and suspension, however I only need one in that price range, the Renaultsport 200 cup, £16k, job done.


Now how about you answer those questions of mine that you have now avoided twice.

Oh and Famine has been kind enough to merge yet another double post of yours, stop doing it, as the next time you will be getting an infraction for it.



Scaff

 

[oqvist]

Finally got to try it. Impossible to get the real feel of it out of a gamepad though. I get no road feel whatsoever as always when gamepad is used but it surely looks promising if you try to use your imagination. Kind of what I expect from Forza 2.

Things that I expected more of is sound and cockpits... Particularly the cockpits are really bad done. To list what is wrong with them takes to much space.
Sound is okay for sound dampened street cars but at least the RSR I expect more grunt from.

 

[KSaiyu]

Hi guys,

I just wanted to gauge your thoughts on one particular aspect of Forza 3.

Does anyone else feel that, with assists off, it's easier to control cars than in Forza 2?

I've played the demo extensively and set respectable top 1% times with all the cars. During that time I've pushed each car to my limits and it was pretty clear to me that all of them seemed to be easier to correct in slides and even on grass compared to Forza 2. Last night I played a bit of Forza 2 and picked a R2 Porsche 911 for the Endurance race around Nurburgring which only reaffirmed my feeling that isn't as taxing to play.

Is this right? Do you agree? Should this be the case?

Over the years I've got used to the increasing complexity of simulation physics engines and have become accustom to being on-edge, feeling that at any time the car will let go, but I don't get that feeling as much with Forza 3 compared to Forza 2.

I like the demo though. It's a day one purchase because the game is still fantastic to play but it's the first time that I can recall where a sequel kind of tempers the experience a little.

Am I going mad?

No you're not going mad. It's more realistic but it's become too benign. Still, it's only a demo and we've only tried 5 cars - hopefully the classic cars are a bit more exciting.

 

[otago]

Yes the Mazda 3 would certainly quality, as would the Focus (a much better chassis and without a doubt suspension set-up)

I read the direct comparison of euro Focus to Mazda 3 from source I trust and Mazda 3 won in every driver's car nomination over Focus. Debatable

the Renaultsport 200 cup, £16k, job done.

Good driving Reno? Sounds like driver's car from Buick

Now how about you answer those questions of mine that you have now avoided twice.

What was the question? I probably missed something

 

[Dave A]

I read the direct comparison of euro Focus to Mazda 3 from source I trust and Mazda 3 won in every driver's car nomination over Focus. Debatable

I believe the latest Mazda 3 is a newer car than the latest Focus and is based on the newest platform. It wouldn't suprise me if the 3 is currently rated better, but the Focus is still a better chassis and setup car than the Eclipse. The MKIII Focus which isn't out yet will be a better car the the current 3 and then the next 3 will probably be better than the MKIII Focus.

Good driving Reno? Sounds like driver's car from Buick

Renault make some absolutely fantastic driving cars.

What was the question? I probably missed something

It's a forum, try re-reading what Scaff posted. It's still there.

 

[otago]

but the Focus is still a better chassis and setup car than the Eclipse.

I never drove euro Focus. Eclipse chassis for me feels more or less similar to Prelude 5-th gen, which I'm driving now (same as SH model in US). Though I never participated in any races, mostly drive twisted roads (well, very twisted) for fun

Renault make some absolutely fantastic driving cars.

Megane is crap which drives worse than Corolla. Laguna is not far from it. Renault today is more focused on your butt's comfort than anything else

 

[Scaff]

I read the direct comparison of euro Focus to Mazda 3 from source I trust and Mazda 3 won in every driver's car nomination over Focus. Debatable

Ever driven one?

I've driven both, on numerous occasions and I would also strongly dispute a claim that the Mazda 3 has won every driver's car comparison over the Focus.

Here we go...

Trouble is, travelling quickly in the 3 MPS just isn’t much fun. At least, not by the standards of a Golf GTI or Focus ST. And especially not by the standards of the latest Renaultsport Mégane competing in this year’s eCoty.

Source - http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/204243/mazda_3_mps.html

...that took a long time to discredit didn't it.

Good driving Reno? Sounds like driver's car from Buick

Oh I do love someone who clearly has no bloody idea what they are talking about.

Exactly how many modern Renaultsport models have you driven?

What was the question? I probably missed something

Add in the question I have just asked to these that I now ask for the third time.

I don't aim anybody.

You addressed it to a single person, so if it wasn't aimed at me who was it aimed at (because it clearly wasn't address to the membership as a whole)?

Car physics in depth has never been point of my interest so I have very casual view about this matter and as usual for casuals if something seems pretty obvious for me it can be completely wrong.

Say I put GTR in GT5P at 150 mph on straight and remove my foot completely off the throttle. From casual point of view you expect speed drops very rapidly cause you think like at such speed car needs around 230 HP just to overcome air resistance and traction, not to mention engine braking playing its role.

I see that car's speed in game decrease much slower than I expected cutting off the power completely at 150 mph, it's decreasing around 1-2 mph per second.

So I think I was probably wrong, and overestimate some factors or even worse - some of factors are completely out of the area, covered by my knowledge

Pop the clutch in and you would slow down even more rapidly, however simply cutting the power when still in gear means that you would also need to consider the engine speed into things as well. This one I can test and will do so if I get a chance later on.

However just because this may not seem to make sense doesn't mean they are unrealistic. Take a similar example to the one you have mentioned above. I'm driving down a hill in second gear and I do one of two things...

1. Take my feet of all the pedals
2. Depress the clutch

...which of these gives me the most control and which one will get me to the bottom of the hill quickest?

Avoid them again and I believe that you will simply end up loosing what little credability you have remaining.


Scaff

 

[otago]

Source - http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/204243/mazda_3_mps.html

...that took a long time to discredit didn't it.

Oh I do love someone who clearly has no bloody idea what they are talking about.

Exactly how many modern Renaultsport models have you driven?

And what the connection between Megane Sport and Megane? Zero?

Between Focus RS and just Focus? You can rebuild from the ground any cheap car and sell it with price tag higher than 370Z, such models are not exactly point of my interest.

Avoid them again and I believe that you will simply end up loosing what little credability you have remaining.

I don't care about my credability too much, but still, where is the clutch pedal in GTR exactly?