Forza Motorsport 3

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FORZA MOTORSPORTS 3 DEMO An Opinion from a GRAN TURISMO 5 fan.

Ok lets get this out of the way first.

this will be a long post so if you have a short attention span just leave.

after Completely dissecting Gran Turismo 5 Prologue since march 2008 and eagerly playing the recent X-Box live Demo of Forza 3 here are the thoughts of someone who owns both a PS3 and a 360 and has had ample time toying with GT5 Prologue and the Forza 3 Demo.

just delete Need for Speed shift, Dirt 2 or whatever else was in your Live queue like i did because on October 27th 2009 PGR 4 ( formerly THE BEST racing game on any console ) will be handing its crown over to Turn 10 because as of this writing Forza Motorsport 3 will be EVERYTHING that Dan Greenwalt and turn 10 said it would be plus.

weve heard the hundreds of Idiots on the Blogs and Internet apparently upset with Turn 10 because Forza 3 doesnt look like Reality or whatever they were expecting.

my answer to this is,

# 1 are you playing Forza on an SD tv or an HD TV with less than 1080 output.

and # 2 if not please go see your Optomitrist A.S.A.P!

Forza 3 is beyond anything i ever expected from Turn 10 studios ( and mind you, i was NOT a fan of Forza 2, it was a great game but Bizarre Creations PGR 4 took the crown of best racer back in 2007 ),

so imagine my surprise to download the Forza 3 Demo and imediately not be impressed.....at First.

because for one i am not a developer and i have no clue that for the first time in a game i was looking at TRUE High Dynamic Range Lighting that seemed so bright my eyes were bleeding.

i had never seen reflections that Weren't canned and Textured Trees and rocks that weren't 2D cut-outs, or a game that paid as much minute detail to things such as Tire Flex and Flowers on rocks and a draw distance to nearly infinity as much as they paid attention to the cars.

the graphics in Forza 3 if i could be so blunt are Epically Beautiful in their scope compared to what Polyphony digital has done with GT5 Prologue.

yes, let me explain...

ive dissected GT5 Prologue for well over a year and YES, the lighting on the car models are Unparalleled, as is the London track around Piccadilly Circus, it all blends together with a tricky blur effect and camera mode that keeps your eyes on the Beautifully detailed cars and off of the repetitive racing mechanics and blurry eyesore textures of every other track that isn't London.

ive watched the beautiful HD videos of the London track and the 2d back dropped My space pages and its all well done and Anything a Gran Turismo fanatic could ask for from a $40 dollar demo disc,

and its all completely Boring and Yesterdays news compared to what Turn 10 has glimpsed us with in this 1 track 5 car demo that i haven't been able to put down since last THURSDAY!

I am in No Way a Turn 10 fan, ill ALWAYS love Bizzare creations more, there i said it.

but Forza 3 is BEYOND even the opus that was PGR4 and YES children its BEYOND your prescious car and lighting simulator called Gran Turismo.

thanks to the Unresponsiveness of the SIXAXIS controller i NEVER felt like i was driving a real car.

the proceedings all looked good, but something is always missing with Gran Turismo's Interface,

in Forza 3 the rumbling of the Ferrari Carolinas engine was enough to wake me out of my Lethragy and treat Turn 10's latest work with the respect it deserves.

in GT5 Prologue as i wound around the Sazuka track and rammed into 4 cars the illusion was immediately broken by Physics that resemble a bumper cars.

in Forza 3 i had the Real feeling that the faster i went Unassisted that there was REAL Jeapardy around every turn, Fear in a racing game? Well, try to hot dog it in the Audi R-10 and be immediately rewarded with a spectacular Wreck.

a Winner in the contest of which game was a Lighting simulator and which game was a DRIVING SIMULATOR was ended Almost Immediatley.

then there were the graphics that made my 1080p Tv screen Bleed.

Che or whatever his name is said his eyes didnt bleed at Forza 3's graphics, well mines did.

Forza 3 is like a generational leap on the aging X-Box 360 and its just the DEMO VERSION.

we STILL haven't seen the New York track or any of the 99 OTHER tracks in game.

as far as all the complaints, i just have to say you all are IDIOTS.

Idiots who i will GLADLY give my copy of GT 5 Prologue to because turn 10 frankly has done the impossible.

they made me a true believer of all the hype that Dan Greenwalt was pushing at E3.

On October 27th when Forza 3 receives nearly Universal acclaim from every gaming site on the internet all these graphics whores and complainers and Turn 10 time wasters will be giving Turn 10 a well deserved apology.

id like to give Turn 10 my appology now.

now excuse me while i go and finish eating this big slice of Humble Pie Mr Greenwalt has shoved down my throat and play through this 1 track 5 car Demo that i cant put down.

amazing Turn 10, simply Amazing.

Erok8150
 
And what the connection between Megane Sport and Megane? Zero?

Between Focus RS and just Focus? You can rebuild from the ground any cheap car and sell it with price tag higher than 370Z, such models are not exactly point of my interest.
Sorry but once again you are wrong on both counts, that also has nothing to do with the clear fact that you dismissed all Renault products (and like it or not that is exactly what the Renaultsport models are) and now appear to be backpedaling in a big way.

You asked for a car in the $20k - $25k price range that had a better chassis and suspension and I gave you numerous examples, and the Renault I gave you (the Clio 200 cup) is well below that price range.

Rather than simply admit you are wrong you then attempt to start a pointless and circular argument, based upon something you clearly know nothing about at all.



I don't care about my credability too much, but still, where is the clutch pedal in GTR exactly?
What in the name of (insert prefered diety) are you talking about?

At what point in those questions did I mention a GT-R in any way shape or form?

Your total avoidance of resonable questions and deliberate attempts to cause trouble here is getting beyond reason.

I assure you that should you continue down this route you will not be remaining a member here much longer.

You have the (now three) questions and a set of simple choices

  1. Answer them
  2. Admit you are not able to answer them
  3. Refuse, carry on posting and get a formal warning for spaming the threads.


Scaff
 
And what the connection between Megane Sport and Megane? Zero?
Wow, I'm really struggling to see your side of the coin here. No one but you mentioned the Megane, and a Renaultsport model is still a Renault all the same and it's still besides the point.

Between Focus RS and just Focus? You can rebuild from the ground any cheap car and sell it with price tag higher than 370Z, such models are not exactly point of my interest.
Your point of interest is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
 
did I mention a GT-R in any way shape or form?

No, it was me who mentioned it as example. Example of how speed dropping when you ease off throttle and stay at same gear while there is enormous air resistance acting on car which I believe is around 90% of all resistant forces at such speed.

Clutches and other stuff have nothing to do with it. Not even very distant and far connection, because all that clutch does is switching gears and in GT-R you can't even switch off connection between engine and transmission by pressing the clutch cause there is no any clutch there.

Your questions are completely irrelevant to the point of discussion and actually I'm not sure what are trying to prove
 
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Any chance you two can take it to PM so we can just stick with FM3 talk here?

I found that I really don't like the quality of the fonts in the instrument panel in the R8. I turn the HUD off, and the fonts are a bit jaggy, even though they are readable. But the appearance of the white fonts seem cartoonish..almost like..hmm...a font typed in MS Word.
 
I believe the latest Mazda 3 is a newer car than the latest Focus and is based on the newest platform. It wouldn't suprise me if the 3 is currently rated better, but the Focus is still a better chassis and setup car than the Eclipse. The MKIII Focus which isn't out yet will be a better car the the current 3 and then the next 3 will probably be better than the MKIII Focus.

I thought Euro Focus and Mazda 3 were based on the same platform? The first Mazda 3 and Focus Mk 2 came out around the same time (2004) and have had nothing but facelifts and engine upgrades since. Did Mazda sneak in a platform upgrade? Either way, they're both great cars to drive even in their non-sportiest trim.

I never drove euro Focus.
You should. Why the Americans insist on having their own uglier, slower version of the awesome Euro Focus is beyond me. Does anyone know if it's still based on the Mk1?

I don't care about my credability too much,
Yeah, I'm getting that vibe.

WEEEEEE Off topic we go! So, in an attempt to fix it:

I can't wait to drive the Focus in Forza 3. I had an awesome one painted up in F2, and the blue one in the demo is just teasing me. I suspect my career progression may go:

Fiesta Zetec > Focus RS > Plymouth Barracuda > Evo X > FG Falcon Supercar > Profit???

I hope they don't put the Euro Fords in the North American category again. It sucked not being able to race the Euro events with the Euro Focus.
I am also excited about the Scirocco, the Genesis, the 09 Challenger, the DBR9 and the 2010 Camaro.


I found that I really don't like the quality of the fonts in the instrument panel in the R8. I turn the HUD off, and the fonts are a bit jaggy, even though they are readable. But the appearance of the white fonts seem cartoonish..almost like..hmm...a font typed in MS Word.
Yeah, they're a bit messy. The colouring is realistic, but the aliasing makes them pop out a bit too much. I think the whole game could do with a slight blur/softening pass on every frame. Everything is super sharp but that shows up the aliasing a lot too.
 
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I thought Euro Focus and Mazda 3 were based on the same platform?

Platform is very broad definition. Out of the box 2 liters Mazda 3 has better engine, in Focus engine is empty at high RPM and tuned more to city driving than sport. Mazda has sufficiently more responsible and precise throttle control, crisp shifting manual trans, better steering.

Standard Focus suspension is tuned more to comfort and demonstrates duality in response (there is sport package available as an option). Not the case for Mazda 3.

This is from car magazine which put every car on the edge on track in reviews, not just counting how many Cola cans you can store inside like Car & Driver. LOL
 
her.gif


______

I'm praying for a CotD to be a Volvo, or at least a classic European car.
 
No you're not going mad. It's more realistic but it's become too benign. Still, it's only a demo and we've only tried 5 cars - hopefully the classic cars are a bit more exciting.

I don´t know I didn´t expect the mini cooper to be as nervous as in this. But again I am not used to gamepads so may just be that. But in all other versions you really have to provoke that one if you want to crash it :)
 
Out of the box 2 liters Mazda 3 has better engine, in Focus engine is empty at high RPM and tuned more to city driving than sport.

The 2.0 MZR is a 2.0 Ford Duratec with an MZR badge on the rocker cover.
 
No, it was me who mentioned it as example. Example of how speed dropping when you ease off throttle and stay at same gear while there is enormous air resistance acting on car which I believe is around 90% of all resistant forces at such speed.
When you ease of the throttle of a car (or even come off it totally) the engine does not suddenly stop working, power is still being produced, the revs do not hit zero all of a sudden. Yet you look just at one single factor and then (with no great surprise) see a problem.


Clutches and other stuff have nothing to do with it. Not even very distant and far connection, because all that clutch does is switching gears and in GT-R you can't even switch off connection between engine and transmission by pressing the clutch cause there is no any clutch there.
No they don't have enything to do with a GT-R directly, however I clearly used it as an example of how what can appear simple, often isn't.

You however seem to be so obsesed with youself that any other persons input is simply disregarded.

You are clearly 'book smart', but do seem to struggle with the real world applications of some of these factors, combine that with a refusal to actually discuss it in any way and the end result seems to be a situation in which you see only yourself as right.

I see no chance in actually getting any answers from my questions (two of which had nothing at all to do with the GT-R at all), and as such will simply take you refusal to discuss as an inability to answer (after all what else can I take it as).

Quite frankly this has gone on long enough and got way off-topic, but please be clear that your overal attitude in regard to this and refusal to engage in constructive discussion has not gone unnoticed at all.


Scaff
 
I think my car path in the beginning will be, FC(gotta compare)-Viper-Viper-Trans am-ae86-FD-Ram-viper...
and Ill be getting a new 32" here withing a couple days so I can READ the times:sly:
 
I got the demo today, and I have to admit it's a damn good game. Cars are far more stable, and the transition from grip to drift is now much soother. The only problem is the vibration when drifting, I didn't know you got that in real life.

Well, F3 is going on my gaming shelf the moment it comes out. If I have the money.
 
Does anyone else feel that, with assists off, it's easier to control cars than in Forza 2?
do you use a wheel ?
I play with a gamepad, and I think it's... worse
well, I'm not expecting much but not beeing able to use weight transfer to slide a +400bhp Ferrari is WRONG
so maybe the physic engine IS more realistic, maye it's the controls in some way, maye it's the demo setup, I don't really know but the whole experience is not great. If I play rFactor with a gamepad, I can change the steer lock, I can choose how much steering assitance is used, and I can slide (or rather, spin) a road car

When you ease of the throttle of a car (or even come off it totally) the engine does not suddenly stop working, power is still being produced , the revs do not hit zero all of a sudden. Yet you look just at one single factor and then (with no great surprise) see a problem.
no ! no fuel injected = no power; air resistance plus engine brake, (I have no idea what the point was but) otago is right, speed should drop quickly. It shouldn't be hard to find a video of this

Really you should use professional mode and N class tyres in Prologue to appreciate the differences in physics from GT4. I'd have preferred a drive through system to cut cheating but at least it seems like it's been toned down.
I don't have a PS3... well, yet. I know GT4 was a huge a disappoitment for me, physic wise. I know this is GTP and I won't bother finding the threads where "some" of you idealized GT4 over Enthusia or Forza or whatever sim. I prefer proper physics to "somehow simulated behavior". I know you still can't do a stupid donut, and ingame vids look kinda weird. So I think I would be disappointed if I'd buy a PS3 to play GT5P. I'll wait for GT5 to come out, with other awesome PS3 games ;)
 
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I don't have a PS3... well, yet. I know GT4 was a huge a disappoitment for me, physic wise. I know this is GTP and I won't bother finding the threads where "some" of you idealized GT4 over Enthusia or Forza or whatever sim. I prefer proper physics to "somehow simulated behavior". I know you still can't do a stupid donut, and ingame vids look kinda weird.

You can chalk me up as one of those (hence why I turned to the original Forza).

Nigo
So I think I would be disappointed if I'd buy a PS3 to play GT5P. I'll wait for GT5 to come out, with other awesome PS3 games ;)

Honestly you probably would be. It's not a full content game and the actual racing is pretty dry. There might be other releases on the PS3 that interest you though.
 
no ! no fuel injected = no power; air resistance plus engine brake, (I have no idea what the point was but) otago is right, speed should drop quickly. It shouldn't be hard to find a video of this

Oooooh, be careful there.

Scaff's point was that there is a difference if you back off quickly without pressing the clutch pedal down compared to if you do so with the clutch pedal pressed down. To say it doesn't matter - as otago did - isn't correct.

Incidentally, when my car is parked up with the engine running, power is being produced without my foot on the loud pedal...
 
do you use a wheel ?
I play with a gamepad, and I think it's... worse
well, I'm not expecting much but not beeing able to use weight transfer to slide a +400bhp Ferrari is WRONG
so maybe the physic engine IS more realistic, maye it's the controls in some way, maye it's the demo setup, I don't really know but the whole experience is not great. If I play rFactor with a gamepad, I can change the steer lock, I can choose how much steering assitance is used, and I can slide (or rather, spin) a road car

Tip: Do not play FM3 with a gamepad. The steering "assist" is through the roof.
 
no ! no fuel injected = no power; air resistance plus engine brake, (I have no idea what the point was but) otago is right, speed should drop quickly. It shouldn't be hard to find a video of this

:ouch: Doooh

That's what typing a reply quicky, while having a nightmare morning at work gets me. Of course (if the car is fuel injected) you don't have power being produced (however its never quite that simple the engine is still running and we still have revs - it is still 'working').

However that doesn't change the point I was (attempting poorly) to make, which is that engine braking may or may not increase the rate of de-cellaration. Which I why I asked the question regarding travelling down a hill.

Engine braking can (and does work both ways), for example if you were travelling down a hill in 5th gear (and were not on the brakes) the car would accelerate with no throttle input at all, up to the gearing limit of the drivetrain, which in 5th would be very high. Repeat with the car in 1st gear and the car will accelerate a small amount and then hold a steady speed, limited by the gearing limit of the drivetrain in first gear. Pop the clutch and regardless of gear you are now heading downhill rapidly and with bugger all control (which is a rather simple thing to answer and I am still confused as to why the member in question refused to do so).

This knowledge can be used to great effect when driving off road, in which you can use 1st in a low ratio to crawl (often at less than walking pace) a 2 tonne plus 4x4 down slopes in excess of 20 degrees.


Now this can also apply to the scenario with the GT-R, because while it is true to say that air resistance will slow a car down, it is a quite different thing to then automatically assume how engine braking will effect that deceleration and to what extent.


My issue with the orginal statement was simply that, the assumption that something is wrong because a rate of deceleration in a game is not what someone 'thinks' it should be for a car in a given set of circumstances.

The sheer number of other factors that are involved and have been ignored in this is what I have issue with, from the frontal area of the car, to is drag co-ef, even down to the rolling resistance of the tyres have all been ignored and reduced to pretty much the single factor of air resistance (which in itself is usless without knowing at least two of these).


Regards

Scaff
 
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No you're not going mad. It's more realistic but it's become too benign. Still, it's only a demo and we've only tried 5 cars - hopefully the classic cars are a bit more exciting.
So it is more realistic, even if it is easier to control the cars. have I got that part right?

It seems strange that a more realistic model would be easier to control.

do you use a wheel ?
I play with a gamepad, and I think it's... worse
well, I'm not expecting much but not beeing able to use weight transfer to slide a +400bhp Ferrari is WRONG
so maybe the physic engine IS more realistic, maye it's the controls in some way, maye it's the demo setup, I don't really know but the whole experience is not great. If I play rFactor with a gamepad, I can change the steer lock, I can choose how much steering assitance is used, and I can slide (or rather, spin) a road car
I'm, like you, using the 360's pad and I've got to the point where I'm constantly flicking the stick left and right to retain control around tricky corners. The sensation is lovely when you get to the edge of control, especially when you know that in 0.4 seconds the back end is going to trip out and you correct it before it can even happen.

I love those type of experiences.

Still, it troubles me Forza 3 is easier to control than Forza 2.
 
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It seems strange that a more realistic model would be easier to control
depends
take Enthusia. Modern RWD cars oversteer on braking like 1978 Escort's. Fun, but unrealistic
take GT4, on a straight line you can spin the rear tires for centuries, while driving on bumps, without touching the wheel. Borring, but unrealistic
it's just not the same type of flaw

My issue with the orginal statement was simply that, the assumption that something is wrong because a rate of deceleration in a game is not what someone 'thinks' it should be for a car in a given set of circumstances
I understand you're saying that if the car was not decelerating quickly (with the clutch pedal down), it must have been going downhill. Then try on a flat road. I'd say physic wise it doesn't matter; aerodynamics are not REALLY simulated in racing simulators
 
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So it is more realistic, even if it is easier to control the cars. have I got that part right?

It seems strange that a more realistic model would be easier to control.

Well this is judging from a demo but the feeling at least with the wheel is very encouraging over F2.

As Nigo said, realism =/= harder to control in all instances. For example I found Shift's cars with the wheel hard to drive while the Subaru in Richard Burns Rally was predictable and easier to control. That's not to say I wouldn't crash the moment I tried to push the limit though!
 
I've just been posting some times in the Mini, and was surprised that it suffers with lift off oversteer when on the limit which I don't remember from FM2..

The more I play it, the more I like it, their is a slight tendancy with the cars in the demo to be a little more forgiving them perhaps ideal for pure simulation, but the whole experience is excellent..

I may have to invest in a Fanatec Wheel as it should give this game the same depth as GT5p with the G25..
 
I've just been posting some times in the Mini, and was surprised that it suffers with lift off oversteer when on the limit which I don't remember from FM2..

The more I play it, the more I like it, their is a slight tendancy with the cars in the demo to be a little more forgiving them perhaps ideal for pure simulation, but the whole experience is excellent..

I may have to invest in a Fanatec Wheel as it should give this game the same depth as GT5p with the G25..

I'm also tempted to get the Fanatec wheel. I'd just get the basic unit and use the G25 pedals with it. Whilst I'd prefer to do that to guarantee a quality setup over having to buy the MS wheel for £80, paying £150 for a wheel alone is still lot of money.
 
Oooh, that's going to be a fun car for me. :dopey:

Edit* Who told Turn10 this was another Davidoff car instead of EMI/Loctite? Aww, well. :indiff:
 
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I actually feel the need to check the following now, seeing as the website is indefinite in it's answer.

Can I use this,

http://www.fanatec.de/webshop/new_e...id=72&osCsid=8c5c432e11fa6c4ba612c7e3b77a3804

on the 360 with the G25 pedals?

For those who own a Fanatec wheel, how is it in terms of quality of construction and quality of feedback when playing a game, compared to the G25?

I'm trying to assess whether it's worth the £150 it's gonna cost for the privilege of playing Forza 3 with a wheel, and whether I would ever use the Fanatec in preference to the G25 wheel unit when playing GT5?
 
Unfortunately it is only the Turbo S wheel that can be used with the 360, It's a shame as the GT3 RS wheel looks much nicer in my opinion.
 
When you ease of the throttle of a car (or even come off it totally) the engine does not suddenly stop working, power is still being produced, the revs do not hit zero all of a sudden. Yet you look just at one single factor and then (with no great surprise) see a problem.

Wow, you really believe GT5P is a real driving simulator?

Anyway you made a good point, though in any other racing simulator game things are very different, but are they perfect? Nobody knows

Too sad I can't hit 200 km/h and check cause paid 250$ speed ticket already two weeks ago. Not more than one per month, this is my motto
 
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