Forza Motorsport 3

[Strittan]

And seriously if you want to sell games shouldn't you push your product like it's the best thing since sliced bread? I'm not going to fault Turn 10 for what every other company in the world does. Sure it's being a bit deceptive, but who isn't now days?

I haven't heard Yamauchi brag about GT5 at all. Have you?

I think Turn 10 is losing instead of gaining buyers by bragging, and saying it's the definitive, biggest, best and what not. It would be much better IMO if they, nice and easy, told/showed us what the new and improved features are.

As I've said already, yesterday I started to think Forza 3 would perhaps become very awesome, and that's after being a Forza hater! Well, today when I saw those statements by Turn 10 I just laughed and thought to my self "What do they think they are, really?".

 

[Joey D]

I haven't heard Yamauchi brag about GT5 at all. Have you?

I think Turn 10 is losing instead of gaining buyers by bragging, and saying it's the definitive, biggest, best and what not. It would be much better IMO if they, nice and easy, told/showed us what the new and improved features are.

As I've said already, yesterday I started to think Forza 3 would perhaps become very awesome, and that's after being a Forza hater! Well, today when I saw those statements by Turn 10 I just laughed and thought to my self "What do they think they are, really?".

I'm sure you'll hear similar things about GT5 as it gets closer to a release date. This is nothing for Forza and against GT, it's how marketing works. You make your product look awesome no matter how it really is. Remember Fable? The developers touted it as the be all and end all to RPG's and it ended up being nothing more than a bare bones RPG which was just kind of "meh".

You really need to understand how marketing works, especially in a world economy where most people are cutting back. The only reason most members here are remotely concerned is that most of us are huge GT fans.

Forza really could be the best console racer ever and could be better than GT5. Since none of us have played both of them in their final stage it is impossible for us to tell. I think the assumptions are getting ridiculous.

 

[Strittan]

I'm sure you'll hear similar things about GT5 as it gets closer to a release date. This is nothing for Forza and against GT, it's how marketing works. You make your product look awesome no matter how it really is. Remember Fable? The developers touted it as the be all and end all to RPG's and it ended up being nothing more than a bare bones RPG which was just kind of "meh".

You really need to understand how marketing works, especially in a world economy where most people are cutting back. The only reason most members here are remotely concerned is that most of us are huge GT fans.

Forza really could be the best console racer ever and could be better than GT5. Since none of us have played both of them in their final stage it is impossible for us to tell. I think the assumptions are getting ridiculous.

Ok, yeah you're probably right after all.

 

[JohnBM01]

For example, I don't think you hear Polyphony Digital or SimBin bragging about their racing titles. I have respect for Forza like I do for Project Gotham, but I'm still a GT fan. Think about when the first Forza was released. A future commercial talked about how some magazine said Forza 1 was "better than Gran Turismo 4." Most Microsoft types like to brag. Like last year's E3, showing a bunch of crap, then "at the request of Microsoft" shifting us away from getting a clear view of Final Fantasy XIII. What the hell?

I haven't an XBOX 360, nor have I Forza Motorsport 2. I can't really study FM2 much the same way I did for Forza Motorsport 1. So I don't know what is really changing. If you can bank on ANYTHING for this game, it's that there seems to be much more car involvement and community with Forza than with Gran Turismo. A big part of this is the 800-pound gorilla that is bigger than any XBOX- XBOX Live. Unless the Gran Turismo series and PlayStation Network have something similar or better, then Forza's going to win in the community department. This should be a solid game for XBOX 360 owners.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

This is nothing for Forza and against GT, it's how marketing works. You make your product look awesome no matter how it really is. Remember Fable? The developers touted it as the be all and end all to RPG's and it ended up being nothing more than a bare bones RPG which was just kind of "meh".

Actually, marketing works by the company setting expectations. Customer satisfaction is based on whether those expectations are below, at, or above what the consumers actually get. So the companies don't have to make their product look like the best thing that will be out there.

If they say that this game will have the best graphics, etc. and it turns out that it's just Forza 2 with some fixes, then they may end up losing customers. But it seems like they are trying to pull in PS3 players by saying this, and as you can see it is not working.

 

[T5-R]

Haha I was so relieved when I went onto the Forza site on monday evening to see it had been updated and that their 'big project' wasn't PGR5. I like PGR don't get me wrong but I much prefer Forza.

Forza 3 looks and sounds great so far, my only dissapointment is no mention of weather or night/varying times of day for races. 10x more polies than the cars in Forza 2 seems a bit overkill when they could up the opponents to say 12 etc... But its looks as good as GT (if not better, the colours seem to look a bit saturated for me in GT?) from what I've seen and sounds to have improved damage over Forza 2 which is quite an achievement (roll overs woo!). Would have been nice if there were more than 400 cars as it isn't that much higher than Forza 2 but then the cars do all have interiors. The career mode changes sound good too, I hope we have the option to alter the number of laps as I find 5+ lap races pretty boring, if I want an endurance race I'll do a proper one!

It will be interesting to see GT5s damage (assuming it does actually have it and its not just another bit of famed GT CGI). Personally I'd be suprised if GT5 had as good damage as they like to push the graphics and that means sacrifices have to be made. Its a shame in GT the car collisions are as rubbery as ever. It would be laughable if they implemented damage in GT5 but still had awful collisions. Its great how in Forza 2 if you clip the back of your car on a wall you spin out unlike GT where it goes 'thud' and you carry on unaffected.

I really hope Forza 3 does come out in October but I won't hold my breath. It does sound like its going to come out before GT5 though which is ridiculous as Forza 1, 2 & 3 would have come out since GT4 and before 5

Forza is the sequel to GT1 I always wanted. It would be nice to see PD do something new for a change

 

[Stevisiov]

Foolkiller posted this in a GT5 thread which sparked some discussion, so I thought this might be a good place to post it.

http://www.joystiq.com/2009/06/04/forza-motorsport-3-will-ship-on-two-discs/

In an interview with Joystiq, Forza Motorsport 3 content director John Wendl of Turn 10, confirmed the upcoming racer would ship on two discs. As rumors last year noted, the core game will come on the game's first disc while the second will be reserved for other content -- such as vehicles and maps. "It is going to ship on two discs," Wendl said. "Disc one is the full experience, even disc one is bigger than any other racing game out there. Disc two includes a lot of extra cars, even a handful of tracks."

When asked if the second disc would act as a data transfer, downloading the additional content to the hard drive for use with the first disc, Wendl told us that was "exactly right." While Turn 10 assures all gamers will be able to enjoy the full Forza 3 experience, we now have confirmation that not all gamers will be able to enjoy all 400 vehicles promised at the Microsoft press briefing.

If I have interpreted this correctly, this certain people will be unable to get all 400 cars for Forza 3?

Who won't be able to get all the cars? those without a HDD? Those without Xbox Live?

 

[McLaren]

I reckon it'll probably be around 3-4 gb. A 360 disc capacity is 9gb I believe and I doubt that they'll use two full discs (although I'm hoping they do as the more content the better, even if it means a HD upgrade).

I would expect 1-2Gb at most, as the article so far just kind of says Disc 2 is extra cars & tracks.

Forza really could be the best console racer ever and could be better than GT5. Since none of us have played both of them in their final stage it is impossible for us to tell. I think the assumptions are getting ridiculous.

It is possible to tell, actually. Dan said they have the best graphics of any console racer. Graphics so far has been an opinion between GT5 & Forza 3, yet Dan presented that is was a fact Forza 3 had the best graphics ever seen in a racing game. He did the same thing with the car roster, presenting as a fact that they had the largest line up of the hottest cars. The hottest cars are all opinions. Turn10 even claims they have the biggest racing game on a disc, ever. I'm pretty sure we can all prove that's not the case as they make it out to be.

Again, this is not marketing. Marketing is thinking of ways to push the product, not repeatedly saying "I r t3h B3sT & U Ar3N'T" & pushing opinions as straight up fact.

You said yourself Fable & Fuel did it & then failed to deliver on their boasting as the best games in their genre. How is it wrong to assume Forza 3 will do fail to deliver on all those same "facts" when Dan is already presenting his opinions as straight up fact to us?

Foolkiller posted this in a GT5 thread which sparked some discussion, so I thought this might be a good place to post it.

http://www.joystiq.com/2009/06/04/forza-motorsport-3-will-ship-on-two-discs/



If I have interpreted this correctly, this certain people will be unable to get all 400 cars for Forza 3?

Who won't be able to get all the cars? those without a HDD? Those without Xbox Live?

I think it's because a lot of people don't have HDD, so they won't be able to use Disc 2.

 

[Joey D]

It is possible to tell, actually.

Unless you've actually played both games, it isn't, and it's daft to keep saying so.

Again, this is not marketing. Marketing is thinking of ways to push the product, not repeatedly saying "I r t3h B3sT & U Ar3N'T" & pushing opinions as straight up fact.

Seriously? Yes that is marketing, albeit not very good marketing. You make you product out to be the best thing ever. If they came out and said "Ya graphics are good but GT5's will be better" what would that say about the game? Believe in what you produce, it's not a hard concept to understand really.

You said yourself Fable & Fuel did it & then failed to deliver on their boasting as the best games in their genre. How is it wrong to assume Forza 3 will do fail to deliver on all those same "facts" when Dan is already presenting his opinions as straight up fact to us?

Because Fuel and Fable are out and the consumers can decide. Forza however is not out, therefore can't really be decided. Sure there are media impressions of the game, which are more or less all pointing to it being good.

 

[Strittan]

It will be interesting to see GT5s damage (assuming it does actually have it and its not just another bit of famed GT CGI).

If that damage is CGI, it will be the first time PD uses it since the GT4 intro...

I really hope Forza 3 does come out in October but I won't hold my breath. It does sound like its going to come out before GT5 though which is ridiculous as Forza 1, 2 & 3 would have come out since GT4 and before 5

Forza is the sequel to GT1 I always wanted. It would be nice to see PD do something new for a change

Well, my guess is that they have worked on Forza 3 for many years. Forza 2 doesn't look much different from the first Forza in my opinion (allthough it looks much better of course, but far from amazing). I think they threw together Forza 2 pretty quick just to earn money, and I believe they worked on Forza 3 and Forza 2 at the same time. I may be wrong though!

What's more, is that we now know PD has worked a lot with GT Mobile aside GT5, and that's one of many reasons GT5 are so delayed. I agree it's still quite ridiculous that it has taken this long to make GT5 though, but we don't know what we'll get yet.

 

[McLaren]

Unless you've actually played both games, it isn't, and it's daft to keep saying so.

I don't need to play both games to see that Forza 3 does not boast the best graphics ever seen in a racing game or that it does not have the hottest car list.

Why? Because those are opinions, NOT fact as Dan presented them.


Once more, this is not marketing. At the least, marketing comes up with creative ways to say they have the best in something without actually saying it. Dan didn't come up with anything creative; he just said, "I have the best racing game". Please show me companies like Coke or Verizon saying in plain English, "We have made the best drink/phone company ever. Nobody can compare".

 

[Joey D]

I don't need to play both games to see that Forza 3 does not boast the best graphics ever seen in a racing game or that it does not have the hottest car list.

Do you have access to some final version of Forza that I don't? I mean if you know what the final graphics are going to look like and what the car list is you probably should share that with the rest of us because I'm sure we'd love to know. All we've seen is a few cars and a preproduction version of the game void from any tweaking. It would be like me saying something about GT5's gameplay.

Please show me companies like Coke or Verizon saying in plain English, "We have made the best drink/phone company ever. Nobody can compare".

Do you not pay attention to advertisements? You can't if you don't think companies like Coke or Verizon tout their products to be better than their competition. Seriously you are being ridiculous. Flip through a magazine, newspaper, browse the internet, watch TV, drive down the road. You are literally bombarded by thousands of advertisements that basically tout any given product to be the best you can get. What do you think the point of marketing is?

One off the top of my head, mainly because it just came across the TV, is the Suzuki that touts itself as "Mighter Than the MINI". It's all a bunch of crap, but Suzuki still touts their product to be better than another which is selling better and has a higher demand.

 

[McLaren]

Do you have access to some final version of Forza that I don't? I mean if you know what the final graphics are going to look like and what the car list is you probably should share that with the rest of us because I'm sure we'd love to know. All we've seen is a few cars and a preproduction version of the game void from any tweaking. It would be like me saying something about GT5's gameplay.

You don't need to. Graphics & the "hottest" car list will always be an opinion-subject regardless of what's been shown.

For it to be fact, it has to be proven so. It's just not possible, esp. with cars because nobody can prove Forza 3 has the hottest car list; people will always disagree.

One off the top of my head, mainly because it just came across the TV, is the Suzuki that touts itself as "Mighter Than the MINI". It's all a bunch of crap, but Suzuki still touts their product to be better than another which is selling better and has a higher demand.

Suzuki might say, "Mightier than the Mini", but they do not say the Mini or any other car can not compete with it, that it delivers thrills nobody else can.


The whole point is that Dan presented opinion as fact. You can not prove you have the hottest car list or the best graphics ever, b/c people will always disagree or find the car list dull.

 

[Joey D]

Are you being purposely thick? Do you not experience the world around you?

The reason Turn 10 has been saying their game is the best is to promote it. It's what every company does. Is it true? No of course not but the if the consumer is to stupid to do research, and lets face it most consumers are, then they will buy whatever a marketing teams throws at them.

Every company presents opinions as fact. Every mobile phone company says they have the best phone coverage, every auto makers says their trucks are the longest lasting on the road, Apple constantly, constantly, constantly says their PC is better than a Windows based PC, and so on and so on. Do you need more examples? Turn on your TV.

If you don't want to do commercials then look at every press conference from every auto show under the sun. Every new car is going to revolutionise it's market and be a class leader. It's all just made up marketing crap. Deal with it.

 

[McLaren]

Are you being purposely thick? Do you not experience the world around you?

The reason Turn 10 has been saying their game is the best is to promote it. It's what every company does. Is it true? No of course not but the if the consumer is to stupid to do research, and lets face it most consumers are, then they will buy whatever a marketing teams throws at them.

Every company presents opinions as fact. Every mobile phone company says they have the best phone coverage, every auto makers says their trucks are the longest lasting on the road, Apple constantly, constantly, constantly says their PC is better than a Windows based PC, and so on and so on.

If you don't want to do commercials then look at every press conference from every auto show under the sun. Every new car is going to revolutionise it's market and be a class leader. It's all just made up marketing crap. Deal with it.

What you keep describing is called advertising, NOT marketing. Learn the difference.

You keep saying Dan was marketing it & keep comparing it to TV ads.

Ok, if I develop a game, and I go and tell everybody, it has the best graphics, it has the best cars, it has the best tracks, it has the best features, it is the best game in its genre ever, am I advertising, or am I boasting to the community?

Or better yet, go show me a commercial that says, it has the best *blank*, the best *blank*, the best *blank*, & the best *blank*, all at once. You won't find it because companies do not advertise by saying they have the best of multiple items in 1 commercial b/c they know the consumer would eventually grow tired of hearing it.

Dan boasted & hyped up his game, setting himself up to now meet each of those expectations.

 

[KSaiyu]

I dunno, the physics in the videos (even the simhq one) don't look all that promising, but I can understand the need for accesibility. I just hope they follow PD's example and give more "hardcore" players a physics system that actually comes close to the promise of the sim tagline.

 

[snake900]

Forza 3 damage model is overhyped.

I've seen a video on Gamersyde.com where a Lambo crashes into a wall at 70mph. What happened to the car? No change in shape. Not even a scratch.

Also seen Audi R8 side crashing into the wall. Hardly did anything to the car. Ditto with a Merc, except the bumper came off. The damage model is non-existent.

I personally don't want 100% damage in GT or any other racing game. GRID is too extreme for me damage wise. But hitting the wall at 70mph with a few scratches is just stupid.

So much for the 'definitive racer of the generation'. lol, Turn 10 are so cocky and arrogant.

 

[Northstar]

Forza 3 damage model is overhyped.

I've seen a video on Gamersyde.com where a Lambo crashes into a wall at 70mph. What happened to the car? No change in shape. Not even a scratch.

Also seen Audi R8 side crashing into the wall. Hardly did anything to the car. Ditto with a Merc, except the bumper came off. The damage model is non-existent.

I personally don't want 100% damage in GT or any other racing game. GRID is too extreme for me damage wise. But hitting the wall at 70mph with a few scratches is just stupid.

So much for the 'definitive racer of the generation'. lol, Turn 10 are so cocky and arrogant.

You could make the same argument for PD and Kaz. If "We will release when we want to" isn't cocky than please tell me what is.

Also, Forza is too light and Grid is too extreme. There is no pleasing you is there.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

What you keep describing is called advertising, NOT marketing. Learn the difference.

Advertising is a part of marketing. It's just one of the ways of delivering a company's message about a product.

 

[Tenacious D]

You could make the same argument for PD and Kaz.

No, sorry. Dan G is setting himself up as the Jesus of developers, and is just pulling stuff out of his tailpipe. I have the screenies Ms produced, and while they look nice, the first thing that sprang to mind was "Half Life." It looks like a computer game, a really good one, but still just a computer game.

Forza is a nice series, but what Dan is spouting is just ludacris.

 

[Northstar]

No, sorry. Dan G is setting himself up as the Jesus of developers, and is just pulling stuff out of his tailpipe. I have the screenies Ms produced, and while they look nice, the first thing that sprang to mind was "Half Life." It looks like a computer game, a really good one, but still just a computer game.

Forza is a nice series, but what Dan is spouting is just ludacris.

Did you read the part of his post I was talking about? He said that T10 was being cocky and arrogant, which PD is doing by the way they have been handling GT5 PR wise(We will release it when we want is like a slap in the face to fans)

I agree that T10 needs to tone it down a lot though. It seems he is turning into the guy that is all talk at the track and no show.

 

[YSSMAN]

It is possible to tell, actually. Dan said they have the best graphics of any console racer.... He did the same thing with the car roster... Turn10 even claims they have the biggest racing game on a disc, ever...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but will it not meet those requirements in a pre-GT5 era?

 

[myke6699]

Actually, when you're online, eight is often more than enough with the way some people drive. Cranking everything up to their highest level of realism, turning off ALL the aids, and locking all the players in the in-car-view setup will make for interesting races in the right room(s)... Death wishes in others.

But 8 cars racing on the Nordschliefe. Fine if it's a 1 lap race but anything approaching simulation distance, the track will feel pretty empty pretty fast. PC sims like GTR2 and iRacing have numbers exceeding 30s and if Forza wants to be consider a serious racer ie. sim, 8 isn't the number. I was hoping at least in the single player there will be more cars on the track but nope, it's still 8.

 

[WolfRacer543]

But 8 cars racing on the Nordschliefe. Fine if it's a 1 lap race but anything approaching simulation distance, the track will feel pretty empty pretty fast. PC sims like GTR2 and iRacing have numbers exceeding 30s and if Forza wants to be consider a serious racer ie. sim, 8 isn't the number. I was hoping at least in the single player there will be more cars on the track but nope, it's still 8.

In GTR evo to race on the Nurburgring with a full grid I have to significantly turn down the graphics (which dont look brilliant to start with) to avoid stuttering during vital corners. Even on Brands Hatch I have to turn down the graphics if I want a completely smooth experience with a full grid. I'm pretty sure my computer is more powerful than an Xbox 360 (GRID, COD4/5, UT3, GOW, etc are a far smoother experience on my PC than either console). I haven't played iRacing, so not sure about that, but even Live for Speed if I have a full grid going into turn 1 the framerate can get drop so much that it becomes a scary experience. But usually in Live for Speed once the pack spreads out performance is ok with 20ish cars. But Live for Speed is pretty well optimised and doesn't have brilliant graphics anyway.

Personally I think about 12 cars is the sweet spot as far as a compromise between performance and fun racing is concerned. Even in PC racing sims, its rare for a grid of more than 12 cars to make it through the 1st corner without someone screwing up and taking out half the field.

 

[McLaren]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but will it not meet those requirements in a pre-GT5 era?

It doesn't have to be pre-GT5. One can already argue about the car list for GT4 has a better list than Forza 3. A lot of what Dan talked about came down to opinionated subjects.

 

[WolfRacer543]

It doesn't have to be pre-GT5. One can already argue about the car list for GT4 has a better list than Forza 3. A lot of what Dan talked about came down to opinionated subjects.

He simply said it was "the biggest game" not "the biggest car list". He could be talking overall size, cars, tracks, actual physical space, customisation, painting.

The best graphics, yeah, that's obviously debatable, but to me it does look pretty damn good. IMO better than GT5P, and its not like he can compare it to GT5, which we dont have any in game footage to compare it with (even the E3 trailer we still dont know if its in game or simply some sort of video editor mode which allows for better graphics than in game).

He said it offers thrills the competition can't. Well, at the moment that means the ability to roll cars, damage cars, and drive cars that you've painted yourself. That of course can be done in PC sims, but I'll give him some slack here, because of the fact most PC sims are still in the stone age as far as graphics and polish is concerned.

The only thing that really bothered me was his "the definitive racing game of THIS generation" which he stated over and over with such emphasis on the "THIS". But if he'd only said it once, it wouldn't have bothered me

 

[McLaren]

He simply said it was "the biggest game" not "the biggest car list". He could be talking overall size, cars, tracks, actual physical space, customisation, painting.

No, he said it had the hottest car list. That's an opinion.

The best graphics, yeah, that's obviously debatable, but to me it does look pretty damn good. IMO better than GT5P, and its not like he can compare it to GT5, which we dont have any in game footage to compare it with (even the E3 trailer we still dont know if its in game or simply some sort of video editor mode which allows for better graphics than in game).

Gran Turismo 5 was all in-game. It's already been proven so.

He said it offers thrills the competition can't. Well, at the moment that means the ability to roll cars, damage cars, and drive cars that you've painted yourself.

I recall ProStreet allowing nearly the same thing.

 

[WolfRacer543]

Lets not forget the slogan of Gran Turismo is "The Real Driving Simulator"... False advertise much?

EDIT: I wasnt aware the trailer was "proven" to be in game, but I haven't been following every thread in this forum. I saw one thing showing how basically it had flaws therefor it must be in game, which to me proves nothing, since it could easily have been replay mode. Some games run their replay mode at higher graphics than the actual game itself.

 

[McLaren]

Back in 1998, that slogan made sense as a lot of games were not running real driving physics. It's stuck ever since.

 

[Strittan]

EDIT: I wasnt aware the trailer was "proven" to be in game, but I haven't been following every thread in this forum. I saw one thing showing how basically it had flaws therefor it must be in game, which to me proves nothing, since it could easily have been replay mode. Some games run their replay mode at higher graphics than the actual game itself.

If you play GT5P it becomes more obvious that the GT5 trailer uses game play graphics, or as you mention, replay graphics, but the game play in GT5P has the same amount of detail as the replays, only the replays runs at a little bit higher resolution and uses some sort of blur effects. The only thing that could be CGI is the damage on that Subaru.

EDIT: Just found this in the GT5 section.

I've seen in the damage thread that some wonder whether there were CGI shots in it, and what was realtime and what was not; well, IGN are saying that everything shown in the trailer was all in realtime:

"Gran Turismo 5
With close to 50 million units shipped, the Gran Turismo franchise is a big deal, even outside of gaming. The fifth full title has been in production for a long, long time now, so the fact that we finally got to see the game in action was a great thing. The fact that the amazing footage was all realtime made it even more talked about."

http://uk.psp.ign.com/articles/992/992045p1.html