Forza Motorsport General Discussion Thread
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- ProjectWHaT
Everything interesting from the livestream
- Drag and drifting game modes will not be supported at launch (13:33)
- The old drivatar system where the AI learns your aggressiveness has been completely removed (18:47)
- There are 19 AI driving lines for each track compared to just 3 in FM7 based on conditions and car (20:43)
- The new AI completes Maple Valley 13.2 seconds faster than FM7 AI (24:50)
- AI will make honest mistakes, these mistakes will not be scripted or based on percentage probabilities (28:22)
- They can fine tune AI behavior in future updates based on feedback and data (30:11)
- Demo of FM7 physics where a tire is going over a smooth curb where the suspension jumps up and down not smoothly (33:53)
- Because of this, in FM7, the suspension reacts more violently and makes the car easier to upset (35:06)
- Curbs in FM7 have a smooth physics collision geometry, because they couldn't simulate the bumpiness correctly (36:40)
- Demo of FM8 physics where the tire goes over the curb much more smoothly, deforms correctly going over the curbs (37:55)
- Curbs in FM8 are scanned, are modelled off of real life (38:30)
- Race soft tires last around 3 - 4 laps, medium around 7 - 8, and hard is longer than that (40:20)
- There are also drag, street, sport, vintage, and wet tire compounds (40:43)
- Tire heat-grip curve has been completely remade, so the grip fall off is a lot smoother (42:00)
- In the last couple of months, they've been working on how heat effects tire wear, they've still tuning it (43:23)
- FM7 throttle lift oversteer is too excessive and it's more realistic now (44:35)
- They use the Logitech G920, it's the most used wheel in the Forza player base (46:12)
- They'll talk about wheel support, wheel features, and force feedback in a future Forza Monthly stream (46:47)
- Wheel gameplay with G920 on Series X with ABS, racing line, manual with no clutch in a Porsche 991 RSR at Kyalami (48:55)
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- Alberta
I was pretty impressed too at how the new AI carried itself on the track. I played FM7 enough to know that AI tends to have some issue on Maple Valley especially with high PI cars, so seeing that Mazda flying through the bends was exciting.
I wonder how these highest-difficulty AI will handle having multiple opponents on the track though. The medium difficulty ones seemed to handle each other well enough from what I saw on the Builders Cup trailer last month, but it still would've been cool thing to showcase.
edit: Tried my hands at beating the new AI, and 1:20 seem to be about the best I can manage 😬
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- 756
- Brazil
I think that some SUVs will be in the game
They already are mad at it, some people going full "how dare they dont put drifting on a game that is suposed to be about track racing" and lots of comparasions to halo infinite
I think it is more about the Xbox One, the fact the fact the most popular fantasy tracks are from 360 and the fact he was talking about pit lanes (that the One tracks are more problematic than 360) makes me feel that the first ones will be the 360
If i had to bet would be Sunset Pennisula Speedway or Sedona
I am more curious if they will put the GR86 Cup North America, like Mission R and the Cadillac LMDh it was on iRacing just a few months before show up on FM list, since the stock will show up on FH5, maybe the racing version will show up on FM
I think i means they will adjust the agressivity and hability level of the AI in the game, i dont think it means they will put hacks
UKMikey
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- UKMikeyA
I bet the new racing line contributed just as much if not more to the improved time.
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- United States
Just got a chance to sit down and actually watch it. Some good stuff was covered but I can't say the presentation did that much for my excitement level as I'm still kind of in the "cautiously optimistic" boat.
The drag and drift comments were interesting. I'm a little surprised the "bad news" was mentioned instead of just avoiding the subjects. Personally I've always considered both of those to be very secondary things, so I won't miss them, but the drift side of things in particular seems like an odd thing to leave out kinda. Like even if there are no drift hoppers, scoring systems or dedicated drift events in single player, people are still going to slide cars around tracks, so an optional HUD element that scores things seems like an obvious inclusion. He did say "at launch" indicating they may come back, and I'm guessing the drift stuff in particular is going to cause an uproar so I'd expect to see it back someday. Drag though... I always thought the physics and in-game systems (lobby setup etc) didn't suit drag racing at all and could never figure out why people were so intent on having more drag presence in Forza, but then I guess there isn't a good drag racing game out there for those people to play.
I don't really race with AI anymore, so I sorta just skimmed through that section, but the changes mentioned did sound positive. If we can add them into multiplayer lobbies again though it could be interesting I guess. Sounds like it will be better, but not sure it will be good enough for me to enjoy racing against.
The AI lap at Maple Valley also showed off the new pitlane entry, which I don't remember seeing in the older showcase thing. While I still think Maple Valley is a garbage track that is full of noob traps and not laid out for good racing, that should at least fix one of the biggest noob traps on the track. Definitely a positive change and hopefully a positive sign for future fantasy circuits.
The tire stuff mentioned was mostly good, and the explanation and visual showcase of the contact issues with kerbs was pretty cool. More things like that would be great for showcasing the game I think, and I appreciated the honesty/transparency with flaws in FM7 that many in the community have been suspicious of. Showing us these technical changes in detailed ways and talking to us like we are actually racing game enthusiasts that understand things is a nice change from just quoting tag lines and talking like a bunch of kindergarten teachers trying to excite children.
The "soft tires last 3 to 4 laps, mediums 7 to 8" comment was a little concerning though. That's pretty vague as track sizes vary and different cars at different weights and how aggressively the car is driven and input devices and so on should all complicate that significantly, so hopefully he was greatly over-generalizing. More concerning though is those given ranges make it sound like the tire life has been "tuned" to fit with the kind of normal casual "people only like to do 8 minute races" thing that has been discussed which is slightly worrying.
These new tire compounds are supposed to add some much needed depth to the racing, but if they are designed with short races in mind they will be almost useless for longer races. Whether that is endurance races in career, free play, or organized leagues where 20-ish minutes is often considered a sprint race, and 45-60 minute races are kind of the normal duration. If the only viable tire for races longer than roughly 8-10 laps is a hard compound, then the new compounds won't actually add anything to the game for those groups. Having such narrow windows makes them useful only in a small range of event durations.
The obvious solution is to do like GT does, where you can multiply tire wear with a lobby setting. This would allow you to adjust wear to the length of racing you are doing, meaning that it's a useful feature for everyone from casuals in public lobbies doing 5 minute races up to people doing 24 hour enduros. Unfortunately though we haven't heard anything about lobby settings like that, and since this would have been the perfect time for them to mention it, then it seems a little doubtful. But we can hope it will be mentioned in the multiplayer coverage I guess, but if it does exist hopefully it works in single player too.
The tire temperature talk was interesting too, as FM7's tire heat model was indeed pretty awful. Unless you were just doing something incredibly silly, it was basically impossible to overheat your tires by just driving hard, but when you slid and did get them hot they would fall off a cliff... for a few seconds, then would just fall back to normal temp as long as you weren't still sliding. It will be interesting to see if they can actually be overheated from normal driving in FM8, and how long it takes them to return to normal temps when you do overheat them from a slide or big lockup or something. The Forza series historically has been a very forgiving when it comes to stuff like that, so if they take longer to cool off it could be a pretty big change for a lot of people who aren't used to still facing consequences for their actions a lap later.
Also good to hear about the lift off oversteer issues, assuming they are talking about MR and RR cars in particular. Both layouts generally drove pretty awful in FM7, although I never found it to be an issue with FR vehicles really. Would be nice to actually be able to enjoy some MR cars again without having to do some wild setup changes to make them even tolerable to drive.
The wheel lap wasn't really... anything. Needed a different camera view so we could better see what was happening with his hands in relation to the car, like over his shoulder or something... But he did mention he was pretty far from the screen so it didn't sound like it was an ideal setup for seeing that kinda stuff anyways. I guess it's a nice confirmation for the Logitech users though, not that there was much doubt about whether it would be supported.
Also, I like Kyalami and all but it would be nice to see another track, it feels like we have only seen Maple Valley and Kyalami.
Overall my excitement level hasn't really changed from where it was before. Saw some good stuff, some reason to be positive, some stuff I'm indifferent to, and some stuff that is a little concerning or created even more questions. Still cautiously optimistic and overall confident that it will be a step up from FM7, which for all it's flaws was still overall a solid title that I have hundreds and hundreds of hours of races done in... but since I haven't upgraded to a Series console yet, I'm not sure if what I'm seeing is worth $500 for an upgrade.
The drag and drift comments were interesting. I'm a little surprised the "bad news" was mentioned instead of just avoiding the subjects. Personally I've always considered both of those to be very secondary things, so I won't miss them, but the drift side of things in particular seems like an odd thing to leave out kinda. Like even if there are no drift hoppers, scoring systems or dedicated drift events in single player, people are still going to slide cars around tracks, so an optional HUD element that scores things seems like an obvious inclusion. He did say "at launch" indicating they may come back, and I'm guessing the drift stuff in particular is going to cause an uproar so I'd expect to see it back someday. Drag though... I always thought the physics and in-game systems (lobby setup etc) didn't suit drag racing at all and could never figure out why people were so intent on having more drag presence in Forza, but then I guess there isn't a good drag racing game out there for those people to play.
I don't really race with AI anymore, so I sorta just skimmed through that section, but the changes mentioned did sound positive. If we can add them into multiplayer lobbies again though it could be interesting I guess. Sounds like it will be better, but not sure it will be good enough for me to enjoy racing against.
The AI lap at Maple Valley also showed off the new pitlane entry, which I don't remember seeing in the older showcase thing. While I still think Maple Valley is a garbage track that is full of noob traps and not laid out for good racing, that should at least fix one of the biggest noob traps on the track. Definitely a positive change and hopefully a positive sign for future fantasy circuits.
The tire stuff mentioned was mostly good, and the explanation and visual showcase of the contact issues with kerbs was pretty cool. More things like that would be great for showcasing the game I think, and I appreciated the honesty/transparency with flaws in FM7 that many in the community have been suspicious of. Showing us these technical changes in detailed ways and talking to us like we are actually racing game enthusiasts that understand things is a nice change from just quoting tag lines and talking like a bunch of kindergarten teachers trying to excite children.
The "soft tires last 3 to 4 laps, mediums 7 to 8" comment was a little concerning though. That's pretty vague as track sizes vary and different cars at different weights and how aggressively the car is driven and input devices and so on should all complicate that significantly, so hopefully he was greatly over-generalizing. More concerning though is those given ranges make it sound like the tire life has been "tuned" to fit with the kind of normal casual "people only like to do 8 minute races" thing that has been discussed which is slightly worrying.
These new tire compounds are supposed to add some much needed depth to the racing, but if they are designed with short races in mind they will be almost useless for longer races. Whether that is endurance races in career, free play, or organized leagues where 20-ish minutes is often considered a sprint race, and 45-60 minute races are kind of the normal duration. If the only viable tire for races longer than roughly 8-10 laps is a hard compound, then the new compounds won't actually add anything to the game for those groups. Having such narrow windows makes them useful only in a small range of event durations.
The obvious solution is to do like GT does, where you can multiply tire wear with a lobby setting. This would allow you to adjust wear to the length of racing you are doing, meaning that it's a useful feature for everyone from casuals in public lobbies doing 5 minute races up to people doing 24 hour enduros. Unfortunately though we haven't heard anything about lobby settings like that, and since this would have been the perfect time for them to mention it, then it seems a little doubtful. But we can hope it will be mentioned in the multiplayer coverage I guess, but if it does exist hopefully it works in single player too.
The tire temperature talk was interesting too, as FM7's tire heat model was indeed pretty awful. Unless you were just doing something incredibly silly, it was basically impossible to overheat your tires by just driving hard, but when you slid and did get them hot they would fall off a cliff... for a few seconds, then would just fall back to normal temp as long as you weren't still sliding. It will be interesting to see if they can actually be overheated from normal driving in FM8, and how long it takes them to return to normal temps when you do overheat them from a slide or big lockup or something. The Forza series historically has been a very forgiving when it comes to stuff like that, so if they take longer to cool off it could be a pretty big change for a lot of people who aren't used to still facing consequences for their actions a lap later.
Also good to hear about the lift off oversteer issues, assuming they are talking about MR and RR cars in particular. Both layouts generally drove pretty awful in FM7, although I never found it to be an issue with FR vehicles really. Would be nice to actually be able to enjoy some MR cars again without having to do some wild setup changes to make them even tolerable to drive.
The wheel lap wasn't really... anything. Needed a different camera view so we could better see what was happening with his hands in relation to the car, like over his shoulder or something... But he did mention he was pretty far from the screen so it didn't sound like it was an ideal setup for seeing that kinda stuff anyways. I guess it's a nice confirmation for the Logitech users though, not that there was much doubt about whether it would be supported.
Also, I like Kyalami and all but it would be nice to see another track, it feels like we have only seen Maple Valley and Kyalami.
Overall my excitement level hasn't really changed from where it was before. Saw some good stuff, some reason to be positive, some stuff I'm indifferent to, and some stuff that is a little concerning or created even more questions. Still cautiously optimistic and overall confident that it will be a step up from FM7, which for all it's flaws was still overall a solid title that I have hundreds and hundreds of hours of races done in... but since I haven't upgraded to a Series console yet, I'm not sure if what I'm seeing is worth $500 for an upgrade.
Yes, FM7 was the only game in the FM series that I kept on tweaking with the controller sliders. I never fellt confident. The versions before that were mostly plug and play. I can't even remember tweaking something in the earlier versions.
I also tried FM7 on the Thrustmaster TX Leather edition wheel in the beginning of 2020. It was one of my first expierencies with a Wheel. I still remember that I just lost the cars midcorner for no reason. Maybe I was lifting the throttle and the unrealistic amount of oversteer unsettled the car.
Switching to the PC version of AC and I took the same corners in the same car without any problem.
In general I am looking forward to this new version. It sounds pretty good overall.
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Hopefully we can alter race length,as far as I can remember we were able to in previous games so cant see any reason why not this time around.
- 3,944
- Netherlands
- skazz-race
- skazzracer
I have found that you can keep MR and RR cars mostly stable mid corner by simply not fully releasing the accelerator. Hold a small amount of accelerator even while braking or coasting and the car will remain much more stable.
I leaned to use this trick on certain cars in PC race sims but it works in FM7 too.
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- Hasse 86
The car Chris drove during the demo lap with the wheel, the 991 RSR, handles like a real "widow-maker" in FM7. Any attempts to trail-brake or lift off the throttle mid corner results in a violent and sudden snap of oversteer. Here, in FM23, the car seems much more planted. Chris trail-brakes at some places and slightly lifts the throttle in some off the corners and the car stays planted, just like a GT-car with massive amounts of downforce should. The handling reminded me a bit of how the cars behaves in ACC. So it seems like all that talk about reducing the lift off oversteer wasn't just empty promises.
- 86,805
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
Esaki says there's no scripted effects - no rubber banding, no cheats or hacks to make the AI faster or slower, no scripted mistakes - but behaviour is an effect. If the AI is told to be more aggressive in certain circumstances, that's an effect - if (circumstance) then (behaviour) else (normal).
It seems like a disconnect.
- 756
- Brazil
[imagine this is all in bold and caps] no you dont undestand this needs to be like horizon just to be horizon sake, how dare they focus more on serious racng and take the limbozine that people used to reverse drift on limerock, i want reverse drift on lime rock in this game too, downgrade, halo infinite, pre order canncelled, focus in do something better [/imagine this is all in bold and caps]
The entire racing comunity (at least on twitter and youtube) is this way, they want all games to be like iFactor Corsalista or like Forza Horizon and Need For Speed Most Wanted, they dont think that racing games can work beyond that two points
The funniest part is that after ALL that they complain why racing games are being so boring and put those stupid nostalgic lens that makes only those things worst
Sometimes I feel that this forum is the only piece of sanity left on the entire racing community ocean, maybe beacuse those guys are more vocal and have people that support their opinions (Genuinally or for profit sake) on social media, specially youtube
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- x Ak1504 x
What i would love to see in 2023 would be a Forza branded Direct Drive Wheel and Loadcell Pedal set from new brands like Moza as example
DD Wheel and Loadcell Pedals are imo the way to go nowadays even on entry level to get the best out of driving physics into players hands and having perfect control without having losses in details, strenght, wheel speed and what not.
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RaceDepartment's coverage of the stream was headlined not with any mention of physics or AI but "No Drag or Drift Races on Launch," if you're wondering how the "Forza is an arcade game" purists are addressing it. But I guess that's what you can expect when you're dealing with a title for filthy casuals like us, who will never get to experience the true pleasures of racing with the top-tier AI and multiclass racing of Assetto Corsa, the out-of-the-box accessibility of Project Cars 2, the vehicular diversity of Assetto Corsa Competizione, the robust career mode of Automobilista 2, the low-cost accessibility of iRacing, or the proven success of Rennsport.
- 86,805
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
This is the discussion thread for an article on GTPlanet:
Forza Motorsport Will Focus On Modern Circuit Racing: No Dirt, Drag, or Drift at Launch
Turn 10’s creative director Chris Esaki has confirmed during the Forza Monthly stream that the Forza Motorsport reboot will be exclusively focused on circuit racing and not feature drag or drift modes or any offroad racing — at least at launch...
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- ZedNinetySix &
Thats a fancy way of saying their game will be half baked at launch (like every AAA game for the last decade)This is the discussion thread for an article on GTPlanet:
Forza Motorsport Will Focus On Modern Circuit Racing: No Dirt, Drag, or Drift at Launch
Turn 10’s creative director Chris Esaki has confirmed during the Forza Monthly stream that the Forza Motorsport reboot will be exclusively focused on circuit racing and not feature drag or drift modes or any offroad racing — at least at launch...
It's a true ripoff paying full price for unfinished products.
When will publishers ever learn to actually finish something before release!?
- 756
- Brazil
You know that Ai is ajustable right? they can adjust their AI simulations so the AI gets more aggressive or more inperfect, this is not cheating if the AI system lets for this type of configurations
Its the simillar to ask ChatGTP to write to write a poem in Shakespeare style, then ask them to write a agressive rap in eminem style, its the same system but used on different ways that you can config as you seems fit, no cheating or hacks
That was so painfuly close to home that i couldnt stop laughing lol
Sadly its how they will be covering and talking
Even stupid console war people are catching on it (
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- GTP_Famine
Oh, let's all try condescension. That'll sure help keep the discussion level higher than the official forums.
The two statements - that there's no scripted or artificial nobbling/boosting of the AI and the fact that certain behaviours can be implemented - do not mesh. It's really not hard to see that they are incongruent, absent further explanation.
I'd think that everyone would benefit from having this resolved, because "we don't do scripted/artificial things with our AI" and "there's eight levels of adjustment and we can make it more aggressive in updates if people want" are contradictions.
Incidentally, my first sentence is not an invitation. Wind it in.
Looks to me like they're aiming to make what Project CARS 3 should have been to start with.
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- Hasse 86
That a circuit racing game focuses on circuit racing at launch seems like the right priority in my opinion. But on the other hand I've never been a drag racer or drifter. I can see why some people are disappointed with this decision, but calling the game half baked, a failure and a future flop after all that Chris showed us yesterday seems extremely hyperbolic and toxic to me.
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- 1,658
- Bristol
- MrCrynox
- Mr Crynox
@Famine I agree it is a contradiction. I liked everything I saw but sure, that made little sense. This one small thing aside it's great that they have improved the AI in a big way from the looks of things. Perhaps the level adjustment only affects aggression when it comes to AI overtakes and behaviour around other cars, but then again not as the AI would be miles ahead of you by the third corner if it drove like it did in the demo. Let's see, it's all good 😊.
One thing I'd like to see/hear again is the sound from FM4 when you got a 'perfect' corner. That helped me back then and it felt satisfying to hear. On the same note wouldn't it be good if there was an off limits sound when playing rivals. I think this would be a great addition as when I'm on it trying for my perfect lap I don't seem to have much capacity left to look for the triangle, I often mess up the next corner if I look for it. That would be good.
One thing I'd like to see/hear again is the sound from FM4 when you got a 'perfect' corner. That helped me back then and it felt satisfying to hear. On the same note wouldn't it be good if there was an off limits sound when playing rivals. I think this would be a great addition as when I'm on it trying for my perfect lap I don't seem to have much capacity left to look for the triangle, I often mess up the next corner if I look for it. That would be good.
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- MrCrynox
- Mr Crynox
Instant buy!
- 3,944
- Netherlands
- skazz-race
- skazzracer
I recall spending hours drifting in AC without a drift mode or drift tyres.
they stated that FM2023 will offer their best tyre model so far for grip loss and drifting, so a positive community would be looking forward to drifting normal cars on street tyres - emulating Chris Harris basically.
I wonder how big the FM7 drifting community actually is? I have this sneaking suspicion that nobody currently complaining is actuallly part of that community
they stated that FM2023 will offer their best tyre model so far for grip loss and drifting, so a positive community would be looking forward to drifting normal cars on street tyres - emulating Chris Harris basically.
I wonder how big the FM7 drifting community actually is? I have this sneaking suspicion that nobody currently complaining is actuallly part of that community
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