Forza Motorsport General Discussion Thread

[ProjectWHaT]

Content of the race day car pack:

• BTCC Vauxhall Astra
• BTCC Subaru Levorg
• IMSA GTD Porsche GT3 R 991
• BTCC Ford Focus
• IMSA GTS Audi R8 GT3
• IMSA GTS Acura NSX
• 1974 BRM P201
• Newsman-Sharp Trans-Am Oldsmobile Cutlass from this GTPlanet article: https://www.gtplanet.net/paul-newman-oldsmobile-cutlass-forza-motorsport-7/

Remember when 6 cars were removed from the base game car list?

Some cars removed from Forza Motorsport's initial base content roster

Turn 10 Studios recently made a correction to a previously released list of cars coming to Forza Motorsport this year.

traxion.gg

It looks like the "2018 Audi #44 R8 LMS GT3" will be part of the day one DLC.

I assume the rest of the cars will be part of the car pass or some other prototype DLC

 

[warp9engage]

I wish they'd publish what resolutions this corresponds to... Worried that my Ryzen 5 3600 and RTX 2060 Super won't cut it anymore for high, but I do still play at 1080p.

Agreed. I also play at 1080p but I'm unsure whether I can hit the ultra settings.

 

[Stupornaut]

Maybe I'm alone in this but I'm less disappointed in having to wait a few extra months for the best-possible rendition of the Nordschleife than I am excited to see Mugello in at launch. That's the track I always go to when I'm trying to get the feel for a car or calibrating my wheel or pretty much anything else that requires me to get accustomed to driving something, from FM3 to Assetto Corsa and onwards.

 

[JackRyanWMU]

Put in my Preorder for the Premium edition on Steam. Can't wait to try out the game with my T150 wheel.

 

[Mirai]

Maybe I'm alone in this but I'm less disappointed in having to wait a few extra months for the best-possible rendition of the Nordschleife than I am excited to see Mugello in at launch. That's the track I always go to when I'm trying to get the feel for a car or calibrating my wheel or pretty much anything else that requires me to get accustomed to driving something, from FM3 to Assetto Corsa and onwards.

Yea
If you’re gonna include one of the most iconic racing circuits in the world, you better do it properly
It’s not gonna rival AC’s Nordschleife, but as long as it’s good I don’t care how long it takes

 

[Famine]

Just before I finish up and hit publish, and if anybody wants to correct, I've identified the WP/VIP cars as:

Welcome Pack
BMW M4 Competition Coupe 2021 Welcome Pack
Chevrolet Corvette Stingray Coupe 2020 Welcome Pack
Porsche 911 Carrera S 2019 Welcome Pack
Toyota GR Supra 2020 Welcome Pack
Volkswagen Golf R 2021 Welcome Pack

VIP Pass Car Pack
Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 1LE 2018 Forza Edition
Chevrolet Corvette Stingray Coupe 2020 Forza Edition
Hyundai Veloster N 2019 Forza Edition
Mercedes-AMG C63 S Coupe 2016 Forza Edition
Subaru STI S209 2019 Forza Edition

Although I do think it's odd that the C8 is the same car in both (although the WP will be a milder tune than the FE); I thought the FE would be the E-Ray but there's clear front-end differences.

 

[Bogie 19th]

I am sure I will get a lot of laughing emojis for this, but the Nordschleife is the track I play the least, and I avoid it unless necessary to complete a campaign.

 

[NotThePrez]

I am sure I will get a lot of laughing emojis for this, but the Nordschleife is the track I play the least, and I avoid it unless necessary to complete a campaign.

I'm kinda in the same boat. The Green Hell is of course an amazing and very important track, but it's one that I generally don't really enjoy playing in a lot of games, and I typically only race on it if absolutely necessary. It's a track that I would almost call overrated, but I'd rather say it's a victim of oversaturation.

 

[Famine]

This is the discussion thread for an article on GTPlanet:

Forza Motorsport: Premium Content and Pricing, Wheel Support, and PC Specs Announced​

With Gamescom just around the corner, Turn 10 and Microsoft have revealed more information about Forza Motorsport including PC specs, wheel support, and the all-important pricing structure for the various game editions...

 

[Beebo]

I guess something positive about this is, instead of doing what they did in the FM5 days, they're being transparent about when it's coming and why it isn't coming at launch. Back in the FM5 days it seems all they knew how to say was "stay tuned" or "we have nothing to reveal at this time". I like the increased transparency.

 

[skazz]

To me aliasing is always preferable to TAA, because at least the image being rendered isn't being "obscured" in some way - jagged lines help keep the edges between things clear whereas TAA/DLSS type effects cause ghosting when previous frames linger on screen. IMO when you're driving and things such as brake boards are moving around the screen at high speed it's essential that they stay clear. Obviously the ideal solution would be to have neither jaggies nor ghosting, but whenever I have the choice I'm sticking with jaggies.

Have you played FH5 on the PC? Because it has a whole bunch of options these days: MSAA (up to 8x), FXAA, TAA are available if you are not using upscaling. If you use DLSS or FSR then their implementations include antialiasing (the normal AA modes are greyed out).

So you can't turn on "just" DLAA, it comes with DLSS or you use another AA technology.

Personally I have found the following in FH5:

• 8x MSAA is the best at removing jaggies, however it has a weak spot in thin horizontal lines such as on advertising hoardings. I believe they use 4x MSAA on the Xbox Series X in Performance Mode which does a pretty good job.
• DLSS gives me roughly 10% more performance over 4x MSAA (all other settings equal) on my 1440p 165Hz HDR PC monitor. But the cost in FH5 is a slight fuzziness of the big picture (only really notice when stationary) and DLAA instead of MSAA which is better at horizontal lines but crap at diagonal power lines (they look aliased with DLAA but fine with even 4x MSAA).

Also if you look at FM7 on the PC:

• There is no upscaling tech, but even 8x MSAA is surprisingly jaggy. Horizon is definitely better there.
• There's the option to implement "resolution scaling", i.e. to draw a higher resolution than the screen and downscale. I found that 150% scaling with 8x MSAA looks damn near jaggie-free. Really very impressive screen quality. This option does come at a cost, though. Around 35% more GPU performance needed to use 150% scaling over 100% scaling. Probably something for RTX5080 owners to worry about if they use it in FM2023 at 4k

Of course, FM7 on the Xbox was tuned for Xbox One X at 4k and never updated for the Series X, so it is jaggie city even on a Series X. Might even be 2x MSAA looking at the game, or at best a weak 4x MSAA. FH5 on the other hand at 4k in Performance Mode is also 60fps on the Series X console, and the implemented 4x MSAA does a great job there. Jaggies are very limited. But it almost certainly has some kind of dynamic resolution in play to stay at 60fps on the console, but it's not very noticeable under gameplay.


So we have:

• Drawing native resolution with AA tech (I think most FM games got close to this, but probably all Forzas have had some dynamic resolution scaling at times, and all Horizon games)
• Dynamic resolution scaling (Forza has used this heavily in the past and it was available on all PC versions too)
• Upscaling tech (FSR only on consoles, DLSS or FSR on PCs). The tech was first tried in FH5, with a relatively low performance benefit (10% or so). And DLAA was no better than 4x MSAA, just different. We will have to see what it looks like in FM2023.

Now FSR and DLSS were "shoe-horned" into FH5's engine after release, whereas FM2023 will get it at launch. But I still expect:

1. For PC players they will offer the choice between AA or upscaling tech, just like they do in FH5
2. Probably 4x or 8x MSAA will be the best option again
3. If resolution scaling is implemented, I will try 150% scaling and 4x MSAA to get the best image quality on my RTX3070.

 

[GT PRO-AM]

I guess something positive about this is, instead of doing what they did in the FM5 days, they're being transparent about when it's coming and why it isn't coming at launch. Back in the FM5 days it seems all they knew how to say was "stay tuned" or "we have nothing to reveal at this time". I like the increased transparency.

Not only this, although it is undoubtedly true that they learned their lesson after Forza Motorsport 5, but compared to the communication of the main competitor (even if they are two titles that are exclusive to their respective consoles), Gran Turismo, there is sooo much more transparency. Turn 10 is much clearer, of course someone could tell me that it is something due, considering that there are also paid DLCs, but in general Turn 10 communication beats PD "secrecy" hands down.

And I say this as a player of both titles eh (I've already played some Forza Motorsport), so no intention of doing console war or game war. I believe that this difference in communication is something that everyone can see.

 

[Krakenous]

Wait... multiplayer frame rate is locked but they don't tell us what that framerate is? Well the series S can't do 60fps can it, so is it going to be locked to 30fps? Surely not...right? That would be devastating.

 

[doblocruiser]

So many great Peugeots to choose from and not a single one announced 😔

 

[skazz]

Wait... multiplayer frame rate is locked but they don't tell us what that framerate is? Well the series S can't do 60fps can it, so is it going to be locked to 30fps? Surely not...right? That would be devastating.

Motorsport has ALWAYS been locked to 60fps on all consoles (360, One and now Series).
Don't fear, you will probably get 1080p at 60fps on the Series S, and 4k at 60fps on the Series X.


Sidenote: FH5 performance mode was originally aiming for 1080p/60 on the Series S, but ended up launching targeting 1440p/60 on the Series S (most of the time, some dynamic scaling was needed).

 

[GT PRO-AM]

Well the series S can't do 60fps

The Series S can do 60 fps just fine, it's the resolution that is locked (1080p or 1440p). But regarding the framerate at 60 fps there are no problems.

I therefore assume that the multiplayer framerate will be locked at a minimum of 60 fps, no less.

So many great Peugeots to choose from and not a single one announced 😔

As a Peugeot owner IRL... I feel your pain. BUT... We don't have the complete car list yet. Fingers crossed then.

 

[TheAdmiester]

Have you played FH5 on the PC? Because it has a whole bunch of options these days: MSAA (up to 8x), FXAA, TAA are available if you are not using upscaling. If you use DLSS or FSR then their implementations include antialiasing (the normal AA modes are greyed out).

So you can't turn on "just" DLAA, it comes with DLSS or you use another AA technology.

Personally I have found the following in FH5:

• 8x MSAA is the best at removing jaggies, however it has a weak spot in thin horizontal lines such as on advertising hoardings. I believe they use 4x MSAA on the Xbox Series X in Performance Mode which does a pretty good job.
• DLSS gives me roughly 10% more performance over 4x MSAA (all other settings equal) on my 1440p 165Hz HDR PC monitor. But the cost in FH5 is a slight fuzziness of the big picture (only really notice when stationary) and DLAA instead of MSAA which is better at horizontal lines but crap at diagonal power lines (they look aliased with DLAA but fine with even 4x MSAA).

Also if you look at FM7 on the PC:

• There is no upscaling tech, but even 8x MSAA is surprisingly jaggy. Horizon is definitely better there.
• There's the option to implement "resolution scaling", i.e. to draw a higher resolution than the screen and downscale. I found that 150% scaling with 8x MSAA looks damn near jaggie-free. Really very impressive screen quality. This option does come at a cost, though. Around 35% more GPU performance needed to use 150% scaling over 100% scaling. Probably something for RTX5080 owners to worry about if they use it in FM2023 at 4k

Of course, FM7 on the Xbox was tuned for Xbox One X at 4k and never updated for the Series X, so it is jaggie city even on a Series X. Might even be 2x MSAA looking at the game, or at best a weak 4x MSAA. FH5 on the other hand at 4k in Performance Mode is also 60fps on the Series X console, and the implemented 4x MSAA does a great job there. Jaggies are very limited. But it almost certainly has some kind of dynamic resolution in play to stay at 60fps on the console, but it's not very noticeable under gameplay.


So we have:

• Drawing native resolution with AA tech (I think most FM games got close to this, but probably all Forzas have had some dynamic resolution scaling at times, and all Horizon games)
• Dynamic resolution scaling (Forza has used this heavily in the past and it was available on all PC versions too)
• Upscaling tech (FSR only on consoles, DLSS or FSR on PCs). The tech was first tried in FH5, with a relatively low performance benefit (10% or so). And DLAA was no better than 4x MSAA, just different. We will have to see what it looks like in FM2023.

Now FSR and DLSS were "shoe-horned" into FH5's engine after release, whereas FM2023 will get it at launch. But I still expect:

1. For PC players they will offer the choice between AA or upscaling tech, just like they do in FH5
2. Probably 4x or 8x MSAA will be the best option again
3. If resolution scaling is implemented, I will try 150% scaling and 4x MSAA to get the best image quality on my RTX3070.

I've only ever played FH5 on PC, yes. I've tried DLSS, DLAA, and FSR and they all look like a mess. I do try to give them a chance whenever a new game gains them, but every time I come away feeling like someone has applied vasline to the screen and turn it back off. MSAA is apparently getting more expensive in Forza's renderer, especially with RT, so for me the most performance effective option for image quality is to play at 4K with no AA (1080p screen so I benefit from downsampling).

The late addition of the DLSS/FSR/TAA options is what worries me, because it feels like the Forza devs are trying to gradually transition their engine away from using MSAA, which as I said is the only remaining good AA option as far as I'm concerned. That combined with the fact I've seen some heavy ghosting in FM8 footage is what makes me worried they might be leaving MSAA behind, or even worse, forcing some kind of temporal effect and getting rid of the no-AA option entirely.

 

[skazz]

Um, guys... I recall previous Forza games had quite a bit of limitations when it came to quality of cockpits (having 700-800 cars I accepted it). But doesn't this Pagani image look like a big step up?
(from here: https://forza.net/news/forza-motorsport-gamescom)

 

[skazz]

I've only ever played FH5 on PC, yes. I've tried DLSS, DLAA, and FSR and they all look like a mess. I do try to give them a chance whenever a new game gains them, but every time I come away feeling like someone has applied vasline to the screen and turn it back off. MSAA is apparently getting more expensive in Forza's renderer, especially with RT, so for me the most performance effective option for image quality is to play at 4K with no AA (1080p screen so I benefit from downsampling).

The late addition of the DLSS/FSR/TAA options is what worries me, because it feels like the Forza devs are trying to gradually transition their engine away from using MSAA, which as I said is the only remaining good AA option as far as I'm concerned. That combined with the fact I've seen some heavy ghosting in FM8 footage is what makes me worried they might be leaving MSAA behind, or even worse, forcing some kind of temporal effect and getting rid of the no-AA option entirely.

Ah, now I understand. FSR is absolutely not intended to be used at less than 4k target resolution. DLSS does do 1440p target a bit better, but it's still a far cry from the quality you get at 4k.

Your problem may not be the technologies at all, it may be you trying to use them at a far too low target resolution of 1080p.


Don't write them off until you try them all on a proper native 4k screen.

 

[Stang616]

They already only have 20 "locations"
Nordschleife should have been there day 1

It's being rescanned to be more accurate and new. I'd rather wait for it to be done right than it be included and be incorrect.

 

[Stang616]

From the Xbox Store:

Expand your Forza Motorsport garage with 30 extra cars at one low price! Car Pass delivers 30 new-to-Forza cars to your game weekly, one per week, for you to collect, build and race.

Your first redemption of every car in the Car Pass is granted at no additional in-game credit cost. Car Pass is included with Deluxe and Premium Editions, and the Premium Add-Ons Bundle.

So, no more DLC Packs, but one car per week, for a total of 30 extra cars. And post launch support, at least for the paid DLC plan, will be 7 months (30 weeks). Correct me if I'm wrong, of course. Maybe I misunderstood.

This is the same way it has worked with past Horizon games, so it isn't new and there may still be paid DLC packs just as there were with FH4 and FH5.

Edit: Sorry for the double post, please merge the two, thanks.

 

[Mathaios_C]

How do u rhink is going to run on the rog slly?

 

[TheAdmiester]

Ah, now I understand. FSR is absolutely not intended to be used at less than 4k target resolution. DLSS does do 1440p target a bit better, but it's still a far cry from the quality you get at 4k.

Your problem may not be the technologies at all, it may be you trying to use them at a far too low target resolution of 1080p.


Don't write them off until you try them all on a proper native 4k screen.

I've tried them at 4K too to give it the benefit of the doubt, still the same issue. Resolution doesn't really matter, they just inherently have ghosting and it's especially noticeable to me.

 

[skazz]

I've tried them at 4K too to give it the benefit of the doubt, still the same issue. Resolution doesn't really matter, they just inherently have ghosting and it's especially noticeable to me.

The way temporal frame generation works is obviously most effective at certain types of images and with higher frame rates. That's only one of the tools used to construct higher resolution images in DLSS 2 and FSR 2 however (unlike DLSS 3 which is pure frame generation).

Maybe I don't notice this ghosting issue when playing well above 60fps on my gaming PC?
I've also watched a bunch of Digital Foundry 4k videos showing DLSS/FSR even at greatly slowed down speeds, and it really depends on the subject matter how much ghosting you get. I see it a tiny bit in ACC at certain angles when DLSS is enabled (mostly in replays), but really not on FH5.

 

[Artremis]

I've only ever played FH5 on PC, yes. I've tried DLSS, DLAA, and FSR and they all look like a mess. I do try to give them a chance whenever a new game gains them, but every time I come away feeling like someone has applied vasline to the screen and turn it back off. MSAA is apparently getting more expensive in Forza's renderer, especially with RT, so for me the most performance effective option for image quality is to play at 4K with no AA (1080p screen so I benefit from downsampling).

The late addition of the DLSS/FSR/TAA options is what worries me, because it feels like the Forza devs are trying to gradually transition their engine away from using MSAA, which as I said is the only remaining good AA option as far as I'm concerned. That combined with the fact I've seen some heavy ghosting in FM8 footage is what makes me worried they might be leaving MSAA behind, or even worse, forcing some kind of temporal effect and getting rid of the no-AA option entirely.

They most likely are going to abandon MSAA eventually, it's just outdated at this point. Great for clearing edges of polygons but by design can't do anything for textures, it's mostly noticeable in FH5 where if you're using MSAA regardless of resolution any road sign is just a mess of shimmering pixels.

Outside of Forza in particular, it's just where the entire industry is moving.

 

[meganinja]

So, no more DLC Packs, but one car per week, for a total of 30 extra cars. And post launch support, at least for the paid DLC plan, will be 7 months (30 weeks). Correct me if I'm wrong, of course. Maybe I misunderstood.

It will be like Forza Horizon, basically

Hyundai Veloster N 2019 Forza Edition
Subaru STI S209 2019 Forza Edition

If is what i am thinking, i am glad that i got Ultimate Edition as soon pre-sale cames out (even if usually i tend to break my no-pre rule only for forza)
I think that is likely that the STI Forza edition may based (ironically) on the Nurburing 24h Subaru car

The Hyundai makes me curious, i wonder if they will go the tuner route or the drift route, or even maybe Forza version of a ETCR car

I am sure I will get a lot of laughing emojis for this, but the Nordschleife is the track I play the least, and I avoid it unless necessary to complete a campaign.

I'm kinda in the same boat. The Green Hell is of course an amazing and very important track, but it's one that I generally don't really enjoy playing in a lot of games, and I typically only race on it if absolutely necessary. It's a track that I would almost call overrated, but I'd rather say it's a victim of oversaturation.

I am on club, i only play sometimes and only if is necessary, i prefer enjoy on ovals, more shorter tracks or tracks like SPA or Interlagos

 

[skazz]

Um, guys... I recall previous Forza games had quite a bit of limitations when it came to quality of cockpits (having 700-800 cars I accepted it). But doesn't this Pagani image look like a big step up?
(from here: https://forza.net/news/forza-motorsport-gamescom)

View attachment 1282089

Ok, I had a look at the Pagani Huayra BC in FH5 forzavista and during a night race. I guess it's the same model with some of the low res bits smoothed off a little, but the ray tracing self reflections is what we are seeing. Such a thing is not enabled on Series X in FH5 at all (forzavista or driving).

It really makes a huge difference to the experience of the car cockpit, those self reflecting lights with Ray Tracing enabled. Nice showcase.

 

[TokoTurismo]

Maybe I'm alone in this but I'm less disappointed in having to wait a few extra months for the best-possible rendition of the Nordschleife than I am excited to see Mugello in at launch. That's the track I always go to when I'm trying to get the feel for a car or calibrating my wheel or pretty much anything else that requires me to get accustomed to driving something, from FM3 to Assetto Corsa and onwards.

Agreed. I appreciate T10 even more since they're taking all their time, unlike FM7 which was incredibly rushed with Nurburgring being very outdated. Honestly, I respect the quality > quantity method T10 are striving for this time. I seriously can not wait until Nurburgring makes its return to Forza Motorsport, and the new cars that could eventually get added alongside it!

 

[meganinja]

I respect the quality > quantity method T10 are striving for this time

Kinda they are going for both
They are going for Quality of the track but also making sure it doesnt end up in a FM5-like situation that were only 3 (hyporbole) well looking tracks that people ended up getting tired too fast

 

[Nacho Libre]

I for one share the opinion of James May... I can stomach the Nürburgring for 2 laps and that's it. Now excuse me while I go into the witness protection program!