- 573
- France
- SUTempest
Forza Motorsport General Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Terronium-12
- 15,015 comments
- 1,555,044 views
- 585
- United States
The whole "starter" thing for career always splits me a bit, with part of me thinking it's good for people to learn in slower cars, but also thinking the game shouldn't really force people to play a certain way, because it is single player after all, it doesn't really impact anyone else. If someone wants to sorta "role play" as a grassroots racer converting their old daily driver hatchback into a race car, they should be able to... but if someone wants to role play a banker with more money than skill that wants to rock up to a rent-a-ride GT3 team and buy a seat even though they suck and embarrass themselves on a bigger stage then just let them.
I think a big part of the rush to faster things is people over-estimating their skill and thinking they are "above" slower vehicles, and the way "sim-cades" and Forza in particular are very forgiving just reinforces it.
Having organized and ran in organized multiplayer races since FM1, there is a large number of players who have an "I ain't drivin' that slow **** it ain't got no power y'all can't race in these things" attitude, and probably 8 out of 10 people with that attitude are guys in the back half of the field. When they drive them because there is no other choice, they either quit after a race or two, and/or complain about it constantly, and basically shut off and don't learn anything, blaming their boredom for their poor performances.
We see the same thing in other more serious, less forgiving games though too. In Assetto Corsa, everyone seems to think they are too cool to drive a spec Miata or M235i Cup car, so instead they jump straight into GT3 and proceed to qualify 8 seconds off the pace and crash on lap 1 of every race, but they never go "huh maybe I should take a step back."
I think a big part of the rush to faster things is people over-estimating their skill and thinking they are "above" slower vehicles, and the way "sim-cades" and Forza in particular are very forgiving just reinforces it.
Having organized and ran in organized multiplayer races since FM1, there is a large number of players who have an "I ain't drivin' that slow **** it ain't got no power y'all can't race in these things" attitude, and probably 8 out of 10 people with that attitude are guys in the back half of the field. When they drive them because there is no other choice, they either quit after a race or two, and/or complain about it constantly, and basically shut off and don't learn anything, blaming their boredom for their poor performances.
We see the same thing in other more serious, less forgiving games though too. In Assetto Corsa, everyone seems to think they are too cool to drive a spec Miata or M235i Cup car, so instead they jump straight into GT3 and proceed to qualify 8 seconds off the pace and crash on lap 1 of every race, but they never go "huh maybe I should take a step back."
I highly recommend watching racing with foreign commentators with the auto translate turned on. German is one of the best for it too.
- 24,612
- Anoka, MN
I'm not too bothered by starting cars being higher performance stuff considering even in games where you start with slow cars you end up in a high performance car rather quickly. As long as there is interesting stuff to do with the slower cars and they don't ignore them when it comes to post launch content I'm satisfied.
- 573
- France
- SUTempest
I think as long as you aren't stuck with your starter car for inordinate amounts of time and you can quickly progress to new cars and choose which ones you want (this is the important bit), this isn't too much of a problem.
That, honestly, is a player attitude thing, and drivers overestimating their skill while being incompetent in anything above C-class is not something the game can fix. I understand wanting not to be stuck to a crappy hatchback with a 0-60 mph time of eventually for a while, because I get that's not for everyone. I also do think the starter cars should be fast "enough" and fun "enough". But honestly, there is no satisfying that which doesn't want to improve.
As older racing drivers once explained it to me... the problem's between the steering wheel and the driver's seat.
- 585
- United States
@SU_Tempest Yeah I wasn't suggesting the game can "fix" the incompetence with car selection, but more that if their player statistics or feedback show many people avoid slow cars and want to spend all their time in faster things regardless of their skill, it's not much of a surprise they start us out in a Mustang or whatever.
- 80
- Canada
another look at replay this time with the controls.
I don't think previewers were supposed to show this part
- 756
- Brazil
I heared replays are under embargo beacuse this was a old bulid
SestoScudo
(Banned)
- 3,000
- Australia
- Decepticon 47
I seriously hate unicorn cars so bad.
I missed out on so many of those cars because of this bs.
The problem was the forza forums justifying this bs. I posted about how unfair unicorn cars as not all of us play online or do competitions instead people at the official forums constantly insulted people like us.
- 756
- Brazil
Are attitude like that that i like how the new game is not focused on collecionism, as much i do like play with all cars, the idea of meta cars and try hard in collect all cars annoys me, specially on Horizon 5
- 13,847
- Adelaide
- Neomone
Absolutely. It's just good game design. It's one thing to save some of the faster/fancier cars for later on, people will be excited to get them and they make for a great motivation to play. But nobody is getting excited to upgrade to a modern Mustang or Civic, they're just happy to get out of the turdwagon that the game stuck them with for the first couple hours.
Games these days have to be fun pretty much from the beginning, because it's such a big industry that if something isn't fun then players will just go play something else. Especially with things like Game Pass. That's a good thing, the idea that the start of any piece of media should be a slog to get through is daft.
The idea that is common on racing forums that people need to graduate from slow cars to fast ones in a single player career is elitist bollocks. People can drive whatever they want offline and mow as much grass as their little hearts desire. It doesn't matter.
- 575
I was more talking about racing games in general and Forza horizon 5, I said FM is a lesser offender, though I think it's silly to start in such fast cars. It's like an RPG where you start with a brilliant gear already. Those old games progression systems just worked. Like I said we'll see how it pans out
- 16,060
- Melbourne
- ScottPuss20
- CheetahsMeow
Starting out in a slow car helps you learn the basics and understand the quirks of the physics engine before graduating to something more powerful. Translate this to an RPG and you realise that it isn't soo elitist. If you're going to defeat a boss, you need to know how to fight first or you will suffer a great deal.
- 17,836
- Florida
- GranTurismo0517
- RandomCarGuy17
Me too and it was worse for me as I had no idea on how to get them back then, I didn't think to pay attention to community events just to unlock cars. I thought it was also single-player progression like in previous racing games, that annoyed me. When I figured it out, it was too late. Which saddens me as I never got to drive the Subaru Impreza S204 or the RX-7 Spirit R Type A in that game.
It's also probably where my hatred of online-exclusive car unlocks comes from, I hate game features where you're given a limited time to unlock something via online gameplay.
SestoScudo
(Banned)
- 3,000
- Australia
- Decepticon 47
Bro when I got nfs carbon on the xbox 360. I saw pictures of the Toyota MR2 I was in Year 7 when i got the game. I was so exicted until I read on the forums in IT class I did not have internet at home, it was locked for online play. Only way to unlock it was playing online.
This is why I hate online exlcusives. All this time I thought I would be unlocking the MR2 just by playing the game.
- 17,836
- Florida
- GranTurismo0517
- RandomCarGuy17
Oh god, that's the worst. Finding out your car is locked behind online play and back then; online play was still uncommon. Stupid!
- 16,060
- Melbourne
- ScottPuss20
- CheetahsMeow
There was a similar situation with the Audi R8 in Midnight Club LA. It really pissed me off because one of the AI raced it!
- 52
- NĂĽrnberg
I disagree about the generation thing - my Gen Z cousins probably have a longer attention span then me, one of them is recently super into skyrim, one started collecting vinyl records... but I digress.
It's a very similar trend in gaming as in the music industry: the mainstream stuff is less of a passion project and more of a product, designed by committee with marketing in mind. And all of that takes place in the age of streaming and subscriptions, where people don't pay for albums and games upfront anymore.
That means to maximize earnings, a song has to grab the listeners attention in 30s, or they will press skip on Spotify. It means a game has to show off something cool in the first 60mins, or the player will look for something else on Gamepass.
I agree it's a sad trend but don't blame the youth, blame the suits, the industry and the internet.
P.s.: the last game to really pull off BOTH in a organic way was the OG Most Wanted.
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- 585
- United States
You are right about slow cars being good for learning fundamentals, but the issue we are getting at here is that it seems most people have little interest in learning anything, they just want to be cool guy with cool cars that go fast. You can't force anyone to learn anything, and in trying you are likely to irritate them.
An RPG typically is a story of your character rising in power by going from low stats to high stats by leveling up and getting better equipment, so it's more built into the expected gameplay loop of RPGs... even if most them barely require any actual skill at all and are more strategic/tactical challenges or grinding XP/loot to become "good."
While many feel racing games should be a similar tale of starting off as a rookie and learning to drive and getting fast and moving up the ranks into more impressive and faster cars as your skill goes up, there are many that have no interest in improving their skill and just want to unlock and drive cool cars. Many only see "progression" in the size of their car collection and number of little stars or check marks on the career list, and are content with racing the easiest AI the whole time and have no interest in actually being a better driver.
It's also a bit of an example of games lowering their bar for the lowest common denominator in the interest of growth. There are plenty of players who don't have the attention span/patience to get through driving a Renault Clio for an hour for career mode to learn about how to drive or race, and would just go play something else, meaning they are lost as players. Meanwhile, dedicated racing game enthusiasts who would probably be fine with (or even enjoy) the Clio, will also be fine with the Mustang even if they do kinda miss the days of starter car ****boxes, so they aren't going to lose any of them. Making changes to appeal to new casual fans knowing their more dedicated fans will simply accept it and keep playing anyways has been a pretty obvious and common thing in the video games industry for years.
- 1,935
- Sweden
I have mixed feelings on what i have seen, and it has not changed much for me even with previews i have looked at, i Know i have put a lot of rants at this game already i will not take up talk about car models becouse i have already done that,
i do like the idea of builder cup and car progression, what i think is a problem with car levels is that you have to level up all over again if you buy a duplicate car, this in my opinion needs to go away, starter cars was to extreme for my liking would have prefer much lower starter cars and series, witch ruins just a bit for me in terms of progression, forza aero and forza wing still looks to be a tad disapointing at this point this needs a completly oberhoul but it dosent seem to be the case at all, i still do think this can be great and enjoyable game but wont be able to take part of it until next year, and right now i dont want to spend $600 on xbox series x from what has been showcased to just play one game, its very strange but the hype is just not there for me, dont get me wrong i do love both forza and gran turism,
i do like the idea of builder cup and car progression, what i think is a problem with car levels is that you have to level up all over again if you buy a duplicate car, this in my opinion needs to go away, starter cars was to extreme for my liking would have prefer much lower starter cars and series, witch ruins just a bit for me in terms of progression, forza aero and forza wing still looks to be a tad disapointing at this point this needs a completly oberhoul but it dosent seem to be the case at all, i still do think this can be great and enjoyable game but wont be able to take part of it until next year, and right now i dont want to spend $600 on xbox series x from what has been showcased to just play one game, its very strange but the hype is just not there for me, dont get me wrong i do love both forza and gran turism,
- 13,847
- Adelaide
- Neomone
There's a distinction to be made between starting out in a slow car and starting out in a boring car.
There are good reasons not to start people in a LaFerrari, for example. Both for the sake of progression and career structure as well as for the sake of learning the mechanics of the game.
There are almost no good reasons to start people in a Honda Fit instead of a Civic R. Anything you can learn in one you could learn in the other given appropriate training, but one will be a lot more fun to learn in. Casual racing schools don't put people in kei cars and granny hatchbacks to learn to drive, they put them in prepped Toyota 86s.
None of the starter cars in FM23 are particularly fast, complicated or difficult to drive, so they're perfectly adequate as starter cars. And the chances of a beginner actually having fun and sticking with it to the point that they get enough skill to drive faster things is much higher, and that's the real point. They're the sort of car that someone might be actually interested in driving, whereas if their first car is a Demio all they're thinking about is "how long until I can get a real car?"
If the player leaves before finishing the training, then the training was bad. If the player isn't having fun playing the game, the game is bad.
Anyone who says that beginners need cars slower than the starter cars in FM23 to be able to learn isn't thinking about what would be best and most fun for someone new to these types of games. They're thinking about how when they were young they had to slog through driving bad cars for hours and by damn that's how it should be still if it wasn't for all these snowflake Tiktok generation ADHD kids who can't sit still for three seconds and need everything handed to them on a platter.
And no, you don't need to know how to fight first to defeat a boss. That's a big part of the point of why Dark Souls became an entire genre of games - you can have plenty of fun being thrown in at the deep end and figuring it out for yourself. It's not necessarily for everyone, but it's absolutely a valid way to design a game. And it's something that would apply pretty well to racing games, where the basics are even simpler and more intuitive than an ARPG.
There's a lot to be said for just getting in there and having a go, especially in a single player environment where messing up has no consequences for anyone else.
- 1,675
- UK
Replays look good,even if a short shot,ive not seen any replay options in any vids ive watched.if theres maybe an embargo on showing certain things that explains it
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- 5,657
- Codemasters (EA)
- PJTierney
I’m surprised a Mazda MX-5 isn’t one of the starter cars, that’s the quintessential beginner race car right there.
- 575
You're probably right. But younger people can't even look away from their phones for 2 seconds without being bored. It's not their fault I know. If we had smartphones we'd be the same it's just human nature. The future will literally be Wall.e
- 1,675
- UK
Another thing to think about,this preview build may have been offering these 3 cars specifically to show off the game,as opposed to a lower,slower car.The released game may well be slightly different in terms of starter cars,it may not be but its something to consider.
Im really looking forward to release day with what ive seen so far.
- 652
- United States
I agree and im going to build off of what you mentioned. They need to get creative with some of the races and challenges and I think one of the things they can do is have playlists. If not included on release day then maybe add to the career down the line through updates by making a playlist with nothing but cup races like s2000, MX-5, GR86, Radical, Ariel, lmp, 911, mustang etc.. then a playlist with nothing but rivalries like mustang vs camaro, corvette vs viper, bmw vs audi vs mercedes, jdm vs muscle, luxury vs sport etc. Theres so many more that can be added to both and even more playlists that it would be a no brainer to make that happen with a racing game like this. If all else fails at least give us this option in freeplay, please T10.
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