Forza Motorsport General Discussion Thread

  • Thread starter Terronium-12
  • 15,532 comments
  • 1,667,773 views
They built this upgrading system based on the statistics or how people actually play the game, generally people use 10 or so cars.
Most "players" of any computer game barely play the game at all, so I can believe that most people use 10 or fewer cars, as they play the game for just a few hours then never play it again. You can see this is the case from the completion % for achievements.

I'd argue there's no point tailoring the game to those people as they'll only play the game for a few hours no matter what. Those people won't sustain player numbers past the first week, they won't provide a sustainable multiplayer player count, they won't produce content month after month to sustain interest in the game. Games are sustained by the people who play for 1000+ hours, not those who play for 2 hours then uninstall.

Isnt that natural when FM has Heavier RT effects?
It's way below FH5 performance even with RT turned off.
 
Can anyone explain to me how the time limited events in FM online works please? How many events do I need to take part in for it to be considered complete, or is that not for it works?
 
I put 4-5 screenshots of multiple benchmarks with different settings a few pages back.
I just had a look. With RT off you have min fps of 65, with a 4090. You're running triple screen, though, so I can't really compare mine against that. I'll do some benchmark runs of FM and FH5 with my system to show how much worse FM is running. I don't think it's a Steam vs MS Store issue, though, your benchmark stats look terrible to me (for a 4090), though as I said, I can't directly compare as I don't have a triple screen setup myself.
 

I'm not saying this review isn't open and honest about the problems he has with FM but as he admits it's written from a mostly PC multiplayer viewpoint and it looks like the PC launch is fairly borked by bad drivers amongst other things.

I've only got a PS4 Pro in addition to my Xbox (which works fine with other racing games) and didn't want to go back to GT7 as he suggests because I was hoping for something with a more cohesive single player experience like previous FM games as multiplayer isn't my focus when playing racing games. Perhaps if I had a PS5 things might be different but there aren't many other exclusives on that console I'm interested in.

If that's not the case with the latest FM game, however, then I can only hope someone at T10 who knows what they're doing sits down and has a good long look at all the criticism and takes it on board so that they can knock the campaign into shape to at least match the quality of the racing, physics and graphics.

Otherwise, as with FM7, I'll probably just put the game back on the virtual shelf in favour of more compelling games once the honeymoon period is over and come back when/if they get their act together and when my expectations haven't been raised so high.

One last thing I wanted to drop here which makes me think they never did more than one team meeting around the big table deciding what to do with the 'new' motorsport. At that table, they had this grand idea of 'hey lets implement a system in the game to encourage people to try to improve sectors'. A grand idea wouldn't you think? And really something that complements the whole 'Motorsport' idea, right? Sounds like a great plan. Still at the table someone came up with the idea to show those dumb forza players what sectors are essential to improve upon. 'You know what, let's put a very big white marker all over the road and some cones at the side to really be clear that those are the sectors to improve!' Everybody at the table: 'Great idea, wonderful, let's cash it'... They never actually tried it out, tested it. Because how can you improve sectors if you completely destroy the reference points you usually have during a race? Setting a braking point and becoming consistent has become impossible with their grand idea. Their whole approach does completely the opposite of what it should do. And it is what their whole 'new motorsport approach' is built upon... But they never found out about it, because they never played the actual game after that one team session...
To be fair this is only the case in practice where you're introduced to the track for the first time in that car. During the actual race I still try and work on improving my sectors without the dumbing down markers. I wish they'd kept the delta display though or better still had a permanent delta counter like in other racing games.
 
Last edited:
It's way below FH5 performance even with RT turned off.
I just had a look. With RT off you have min fps of 65, with a 4090. You're running triple screen, though, so I can't really compare mine against that. I'll do some benchmark runs of FM and FH5 with my system to show how much worse FM is running. I don't think it's a Steam vs MS Store issue, though, your benchmark stats look terrible to me (for a 4090), though as I said, I can't directly compare as I don't have a triple screen setup myself.
To me, that is absolutely terrible performance. I can get a solid 4k 144fps in FH5.
Its the physics and ai thats tanking down the cpu, so its cpu limited not gpu. The physics and ai are not that heavy in FH5 which is why you get more fps compared to FM. Also its not as well optimised as FH because its a new engine vs a engine they used for over 7 years.
 
One last thing I wanted to drop here which makes me think they never did more than one team meeting around the big table deciding what to do with the 'new' motorsport. At that table, they had this grand idea of 'hey lets implement a system in the game to encourage people to try to improve sectors'. A grand idea wouldn't you think? And really something that complements the whole 'Motorsport' idea, right? Sounds like a great plan. Still at the table someone came up with the idea to show those dumb forza players what sectors are essential to improve upon. 'You know what, let's put a very big white marker all over the road and some cones at the side to really be clear that those are the sectors to improve!' Everybody at the table: 'Great idea, wonderful, let's cash it'... They never actually tried it out, tested it. Because how can you improve sectors if you completely destroy the reference points you usually have during a race? Setting a braking point and becoming consistent has become impossible with their grand idea. Their whole approach does completely the opposite of what it should do. And it is what their whole 'new motorsport approach' is built upon... But they never found out about it, because they never played the actual game after that one team session...
Agreed. I used those cones and lines as reference points and then come race day, there gone. A bit silly.
 
I've found that if you change resolutions, ray tracing, textures, well basically any video settings, you should restart the game. I've had one crash only after fooling around with these settings and no crashes after I had restarted the game after any settings changes.
I'm finally getting a steady 60 FPS that's smooth (v-sync on). I'm happy with that for now. 4k ultra textures, 80% Resolution scale, ray tracing off. Most other stuff on high. I'm on Steam version.

Clearly there is some type of optimization issue on PC when even cut scenes are dropping FPS like mad. I'm confident they'll patch these soon. It would be nice if people could just calm down and wait. Of course it sucks to have issues off the start but here we are.

Also, as was mentioned before, go into Gameplay & HUD settings and turn OFF Camera Motion Effects. Especially if you're in a sim rig and close to your screen. It was making me sick. It makes it feel like the screen is constantly stuttering. Turn this off immediately.

After spending an hour (or more) setting up my DD2 and just about that much time fiddling with video settings just to reach 60, I'm happy for now. I can play this until they patch it. And I'm enjoying it. I come more from PC sims. I'm impressed with the FFB and the physics. They're reaching towards sim territory. Not quite there but nice altogether. And that's not what games like these are for anyways. Once you turn off all assists, all that screen clutter and pop-up nonsense, all the pinball noises that happen during a race, you can have some pretty good quality races. I'm a fan.
 
Its the physics and ai thats tanking down the cpu, so its cpu limited not gpu. The physics and ai are not that heavy in FH5 which is why you get more fps compared to FM. Also its not as well optimised as FH because its a new engine vs a engine they used for over 7 years.
It's CPU-limited because it's extremely single core reliant. It doesn't scale particularly well beyond 6 physical cores. As a matter of fact, performance seemingly worsens the more cores are available to it. So that's something that needs addressing, though if I'm being blunt, I doubt that it will be.

The FSR 2.2 implementation is also actually terrible. The temporal ghosting artifacts are the worst I've ever seen in any game that uses FSR. I noticed it last night while doing a race on Homestead Miami (I hate this track, btw :lol: ) and the stars would smear across the screen whenever the camera would move — it's god awful and needs to be fixed. It's like, despite being 2.2, the game doesn't use its anti-ghosting logic.

I turned it off because I'd rather take the performance hit, which, like in FH5...the upscalers don't really do much of anything.

The latter rant has absolutely nothing to do with you, it's just...so bad.
 
I'm not saying this review isn't open and honest about the problems he has with FM but as he admits it's written from a mostly PC multiplayer viewpoint and it looks like the PC launch is fairly borked by bad drivers amongst other things.
A lot of what Gamermuscle brings up aren’t performance issues though. No amount of PC driver fixes will improve the design of the career mode, the implementation of the AI etc.

His expectations are pretty high because the games he’s comparing it to hit that high mark in many areas, which I think is fair.
 
Last edited:
It's CPU-limited because it's extremely single core reliant. It doesn't scale particularly well beyond 6 physical cores. As a matter of fact, performance seemingly worsens the more cores are available to it. So that's something that needs addressing, though if I'm being blunt, I doubt that it will be.

The FSR 2.2 implementation is also actually terrible. The temporal ghosting artifacts are the worst I've ever seen in any game that uses FSR. I noticed it last night while doing a race on Homestead Miami (I hate this track, btw :lol: ) and the stars would smear across the screen whenever the camera would move — it's god awful and needs to be fixed. It's like, despite being 2.2, the game doesn't use its anti-ghosting logic.

I turned it off because I'd rather take the performance hit, which, like in FH5...the upscalers don't really do much of anything.

The latter rant has absolutely nothing to do with you, it's just...so bad.
Its not only fsr thats looking bad, DLSS isn't even working properly. There are lots of ghosting randomly on screen when the road gets brighter. Also performance with and without upscalers is roughly the same which show that its bugged. The game needs some patching asap to fix all those issues.
 
Anyone here have a good setting for the Logitech G920? The default settings aren't the best. Also do the online events get you prize cars or just the limited time tours?
 
Last edited:
It's CPU-limited because it's extremely single core reliant. It doesn't scale particularly well beyond 6 physical cores. As a matter of fact, performance seemingly worsens the more cores are available to it. So that's something that needs addressing, though if I'm being blunt, I doubt that it will be.

The FSR 2.2 implementation is also actually terrible. The temporal ghosting artifacts are the worst I've ever seen in any game that uses FSR. I noticed it last night while doing a race on Homestead Miami (I hate this track, btw :lol: ) and the stars would smear across the screen whenever the camera would move — it's god awful and needs to be fixed. It's like, despite being 2.2, the game doesn't use its anti-ghosting logic.

I turned it off because I'd rather take the performance hit, which, like in FH5...the upscalers don't really do much of anything.

The latter rant has absolutely nothing to do with you, it's just...so bad.
Prior to FM2023 launch I sat down and reviewed performance/quality of the current FH5 options (TAA, DLAA, MSAA, FXAA, DLSS, FSR, skipped XeSS) on my 1440p 165Hz HDR display.

  • I concluded there that the upscaling methods (DLSS and FSR) cause too many artefacts (especially shimmer, jaggies) for only a small performance gain (at 1440p at least).
  • MSAA (as used on the Xbox) has issues with shimmering on advertising hoardings and doesn't do anything for trees (although tree shimmer is something you don't notice until TAA takes it away to be honest).
  • TAA seems to give a very stable grounded image, but has issues with shimmering and jaggies on overhead power cables especially (and a bit on mesh fences). Still, it gives a very respectable result right now.
  • I found that I couldn't actually see any smearing from TAA/DLAA under normal gameplay (unlike ACC which I've seen smear behind fast moving cars plenty of times). And as a result I could not see any significant benefits from the DLAA performance hit against TAA as a result.
  • I didn't really see any "softness" from TAA, although that's not easy to see in a fast-paced racing game like this.

So in the end I concluded that right now in FH5 TAA (with sharpness 7) gives the best image quality, since it antialiases the trees which MSAA doesn't. The slightly higher performance alternative is 4x MSAA (which Xbox also uses) if you can accept shimmer in the trees and advertising hoardings, but as a result it is starting to feel rather "last gen" - at least when you don't notice any temporal smearing.

I can see why T10 opted for TAA moving forwards for the more stable/grounded and less shimmering image. I can also see why they went with dynamic resolution not FSR on the Xbox consoles.
 
Here are comparison benchmarks of FH5 and FM 2023 with my system to show why I'm saying the FM 2023 performance is terrible. I don't believe it's a launcher issue. I've done the best I can to equalise settings, basically 4k, ultra quality, dlss quality for both games.

Both games are limited by the CPU rendering element, with FH5 having a min of 147fps, FM 2023 51fps.

I'm not saying FM 2023 is unplayable because of this, it is perfectly playable at a reasonably solid 60fps in most practical situations. I'd just rather be playing at a higher framerate, and it does represent terrible performance compared to FH5.

fh5 benchmark 4k ultra dlss quality.jpg


fm2023 benchmark 4k ultra dlss quality.jpg
 
Prior to FM2023 launch I sat down and reviewed performance/quality of the current FH5 options (TAA, DLAA, MSAA, FXAA, DLSS, FSR, skipped XeSS) on my 1440p 165Hz HDR display.

  • I concluded there that the upscaling methods (DLSS and FSR) cause too many artefacts (especially shimmer, jaggies) for only a small performance gain (at 1440p at least).
  • MSAA (as used on the Xbox) has issues with shimmering on advertising hoardings and doesn't do anything for trees (although tree shimmer is something you don't notice until TAA takes it away to be honest).
  • TAA seems to give a very stable grounded image, but has issues with shimmering and jaggies on overhead power cables especially (and a bit on mesh fences). Still, it gives a very respectable result right now.
  • I found that I couldn't actually see any smearing from TAA/DLAA under normal gameplay (unlike ACC which I've seen smear behind fast moving cars plenty of times). And as a result I could not see any significant benefits from the DLAA performance hit against TAA as a result.
  • I didn't really see any "softness" from TAA, although that's not easy to see in a fast-paced racing game like this.

So in the end I concluded that right now in FH5 TAA (with sharpness 7) gives the best image quality, since it antialiases the trees which MSAA doesn't. The slightly higher performance alternative is 4x MSAA (which Xbox also uses) if you can accept shimmer in the trees and advertising hoardings, but as a result it is starting to feel rather "last gen" - at least when you don't notice any temporal smearing.

I can see why T10 opted for TAA moving forwards for the more stable/grounded and less shimmering image. I can also see why they went with dynamic resolution not FSR on the Xbox consoles.
From what I gathered watching the DF video, DLAA sharpens the aliased edges around the car silhouettes far, far better than TAA and TAAU. I would love to see XeSS in Motorsport, but it isn't readily selectable which is a really weird solution as both FSR and XeSS are hardware agnostic. Is it even available? I genuinely don't know and can't remember reading whether anything beyond DLSS and FSR being supported.

As far as ACC goes, I forget what the option is because I haven't turned it on in a bit, but I believe it's something like KTAA Gen 5 (4? 3? :lol: ) and then mostly resolves the excessive ghosting in chase camera, or in cockpit for that matter.
 
It's CPU-limited because it's extremely single core reliant. It doesn't scale particularly well beyond 6 physical cores. As a matter of fact, performance seemingly worsens the more cores are available to it. So that's something that needs addressing, though if I'm being blunt, I doubt that it will be.

The FSR 2.2 implementation is also actually terrible. The temporal ghosting artifacts are the worst I've ever seen in any game that uses FSR. I noticed it last night while doing a race on Homestead Miami (I hate this track, btw :lol: ) and the stars would smear across the screen whenever the camera would move — it's god awful and needs to be fixed. It's like, despite being 2.2, the game doesn't use its anti-ghosting logic.

I turned it off because I'd rather take the performance hit, which, like in FH5...the upscalers don't really do much of anything.

The latter rant has absolutely nothing to do with you, it's just...so bad.
Another problem for the AA in this game is the lack of a shrapness slider. I really do miss the sharpness that msaa provides.

I also want a saturation/gamma slider in the game because it is lacking a bit of color (it's too warm and little dull) while the gamma is off by a notch or two.

They really need to port over the photo mode and the livery editor from FH5. These features seem archaic, after using the one in fh5.

I don't like this new garage. The one from the leaked build seemed perfect (and looked like an actual garage) and iirc had walkable interior and also seamless forzavista for all 4 cars. I would take the FH garage or even the last 3 FM garages over this one.

I really don't like the fact that resolutions seem to be lower for reflections that the rest of the game. Seeing the mirrors or even body reflections with jaggies annoys me a lot.

Why have they taken away the ability to turn on the car in forzavista, and by extension, in pits during the pre race menu.
Why can we rev cars during upgrades. The camera not being free sometimes really bugs me.

The option to qualify in featured multiplayer during practice should require a confirmation. I ended up accidentally entering qualifying on hard tires with 11 laps of fuel, while I meant to change the tires for the cars.

The game really can improve the car xp system (which I like) by adding manufacturer affinity (for faster xp), car level based xp multiplayer (universal) and a sponsor system that functions like the mod cards and challenges (like set lap under x or finish x or overtake x etc.). If all these could boost xp gains for each race and make getting to level 50, maybe 50% faster, the system will feel a lot better and quicker.

Online has been lovely with no complaints. Just wish there was a separate hoppers tab that was unranked. Mainly for the open track day lobbies.

This game could really use a few gimmick races like knockout, fuel management and autocross. These are still very racing based and would help with variety.

I really don't understand why each car division and each car pi level doesn't get its own builders cup championship.
I also think that completing a championship should enable you to complete it again with randomized tracks and weather/time.

Ai is nice after 2 laps. Wish the field spread wish not that high. Also they are too aggressive on lap 1.

Needs quite a few QoL features like saving between practice and race in the builders cup.

While i love doing hour long races with 24x time progression, Free play needs a lot more customizability. Weather changes and grid should be customizable to a much greater level. Along with ability to make your own championships and qualifying.
Sounds finally have bass now. I still wish we got an in game equalizer.

All in all, I find racing and the physics extremely enjoyable both online and offline. It's a shame that the rest of the game is undercooked. Feels like the kinda forgot about the 'game' part of the 'racing game'. Hope that they can keep the updates up like FH5 has during the last 7 months. Both in terms of features and content.

A road map could help T10 immensely, atleast for public Image.
 
A lot of what Gamermuscle brings up aren’t performance issues though. No amount of PC driver fixes will improve the design of the career mode, the implementation of the AI etc.

His expectations are pretty high because the games he’s comparing it to hit that high mark in many areas, which I think is fair.
Gamermuscle is one of the best youtubers.( in my opinion )
When EA Sports WRC is released I look forward to his FFB settings.
 
Last edited:
I just had a look. With RT off you have min fps of 65, with a 4090. You're running triple screen, though, so I can't really compare mine against that. I'll do some benchmark runs of FM and FH5 with my system to show how much worse FM is running. I don't think it's a Steam vs MS Store issue, though, your benchmark stats look terrible to me (for a 4090), though as I said, I can't directly compare as I don't have a triple screen setup myself.
Triple 1440p has the same pixel count as a 5k monitor. With RT off and everything set to max, I'm able to hold 90fps stable. How is that terrible? FH5 with the same settings I get around 110-120 fps without DLSS. And FH5 does not have RT unless you're in photo mode. I'd say that's not bad at all. Does the game need to be optimized better? Yes.
 
Triple 1440p has the same pixel count as a 5k monitor. With RT off and everything set to max, I'm able to hold 90fps stable. How is that terrible? FH5 with the same settings I get around 110-120 fps without DLSS. And FH5 does not have RT unless you're in photo mode. I'd say that's not bad at all. Does the game need to be optimized better? Yes.
FH5 got an RT patch in November 2022:
1696699772236.png


It's only RT Reflections, though, not RTAO or RTGI. FM2023 was intending to implement RTGI but didn't make it in time and settled for RT Reflections + RTAO on launch. They intend to bring RTGI later.
 
FH5 got an RT patch in November 2022:
View attachment 1293294

It's only RT Reflections, though, not RTAO or RTGI. FM2023 was intending to implement RTGI but didn't make it in time and settled for RT Reflections + RTAO on launch. They intend to bring RTGI later.
I’ll have to install FH5 and run some benchmarks.
 
I dont know if it was a bug or a glitch,but when I started the builders cup,just before I got to pick my car,I backed out of the game and turned it off.When I came to play the game again I wasnt given a choice of the 3 cars to start the builders cup,I was given a better,wider selection so I used a Focus RS instead,which im currently leveling up in.
Like I said maybe a glitch or not but I wasnt forced to use the Honda,Subaru or Ford Mustang.

To add,I have the vip add on with the extra credits so i dont know how much you start the game with,maybe at the start you dont have enough credits to buy a different car and thats why it offers one of the 3 cars for free?
 
Last edited:
Anyone knows the discount you get on other cars of the same manufacturer when reaching car level 50?
It's 25% on all cars of that manufacture.

Also has anyone been able to make a long custom race without crashing? For some reason making more than 15 laps will crash my game.
 
Last edited:
To me, that is absolutely terrible performance. I can get a solid 4k 144fps in FH5.
Back on FH4 the benchmark gave me 240 fps where as FM7 only gave me 60 fps. Purhaps the greater overhead of the physics are pushing you CPU too far?
 
Hey, the first couple of days my car customizations weren't saving properly on the garage thumbnails.

That suddenly changed today. Maybe the backend saving system only started working now?
 
Back