Forza Motorsport General Discussion Thread

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To me its a big shame that these once great racing series (Forza Motorsport and Gran Turismo) appear to have changed the direction theyre going in and lost track of what I always thought was one of the best things about the older titles. Freedom of choice.

In FM4 the only restriction you had tlwas credits, with enough credits you could buy whatever car you wabted, tune it and enter whatever race it was eligible for at any time. GT4 was very similar albeit with licenses and aome cars locked as prizes, but otherwise it was much the same. As were titles in both series prior to those games.

But now we unlock each event after completing the previous one. We unlock cars as we progress through the events. We unlock tuning parts as we level up the cars in a specific order.

What this means is we're all going to be doing the ecents in the same order, unlocking cars in the same order and tuning cars with the same parts as you need to in order to remain competetive withing each tour.

It's sad that developers seem to have lost the knack, or desire, to offer these games as open experiences with a lot of player freedom anymore.
 
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Personally I like this system
It allows you to basically pick and choose the car that best suits your driving style and then turn it into a track monster
As for the graphics (Which look fine to me), I wouldn’t be at all surprised if this was originally in development for Xbox One and Series, but they canned it after they realised that there’s basically no next-gen exclusive racing games for Xbox other than WRC 23 and NFS Unbound.
 
To me its a big shame that these once great racing series (Forza Motorsport and Gran Turismo) appear to have changed the direction theyre going in and lost track of what I always thought was one of the beat things about the older titles. Freedom of choice.

In FM4 the only restriction you had tlwas credits, with enough credits you could buy whatever car you wabted, tune it and enter whatever race it was eligible for at any time. GT4 was very similar albeit with licenses and aome cars locked as prizes, but otherwise it was much the same. As were titles in both series prior to those games.

But now we unlock each event after completing the previous one. We unlock cars as we progress through the events. We unlock tuning parts as we level up the cars in a specific order.

What this means is we're all going to be doing the ecents in the same order, unlocking cars in the same order and tuning cars with the same parts as you need to in order to remain competetive withing each tour.

It's sad that developers seem to have lost the knack, or desire, to offer these games as open experiences with a lot of player freedom anymore.
As I got it, it is only a few cars that are unlocked by completing events. The rest will be available. I also got that you can use your own cars (within limits) in all but a few events.
 
I personally don't get why the graphics are such a sticking point. I'm not saying I think they are the "best" and there are other games I like the overall looks of a little bit better than the Forza series in general, so I can see not loving the style or whatever, but can't see thinking they look so bad you need to make a bunch of posts and get into condescending, snarky arguments over them. Note that I'm not saying everyone being critical is guilty of that, it's not necessarily the person putting down the graphics that is being the condescending/snarky one. Whether or not they fit your preference, I just don't see the difference in style to some other games being such a big deal.

A lot of what we saw looked generally "fine" but most of it really wasn't what I'm interested in.

The practice mode thing with sector marks could be an interesting tool, as one area Forza has really lacked is options for info and tools to help you improve as a driver. Even basic things like sector times have been missing, and while a tool like what we saw isn't really a replacement for those simple ones, it could still be very useful, especially if we have the option to save specific ghosts/times to revisit later and don't have to worry about overwriting them with another car.

It's nice that the AI won't be cheating, but it's too early to say anything else about them as we barely saw half a lap with them from the perspective of a guy driving super slowly/poorly for a presentation. It's easy for them to look "fine" in what we saw, but the real test will be how they try to overtake, how they handle being squeezed, how aware they are, whether they make believable mistakes, whether they pit properly during longer races, and so on.

The worrying thing though is this car XP grind... I know GTPlanet is a pretty single-player oriented place generally, particularly on the Forza side of things it seems, but this car upgrading system sounds like a nightmare for multiplayer.

On the public lobby side of things, let's say you want to upgrade your C460 car up to A700 because A-class is your favorite hopper where you and your friends normally race... Well too bad. I guess you can take it to the C-class hopper, where it will be 40PI below the cap and uncompetitive until you level it up enough to get some parts. Even if you unlock enough parts to throw at it to get it up to A-class after an hour or so, you still won't have all the build options available until you max the car. So 3 hours of driving a car in single player or in a class you don't want to race in just so you can put a proper build on it for the class you want... but then what happens if the car sucks and isn't really viable in that class? Time wasted.

For organized leagues it is even worse though. Series that run multiple cars require hours (and hours, and hours, depending on how many cars are desired) of testing builds for balance, but now you will need to spend 3 hours per car just getting the parts so that you can start trying to put builds together. Then when your work is done, everyone who is going to race the league needs to spend 3 hours driving one of them to get the parts for the correct build. Since those 3 hours can't be spent with the right build on the car, you can't even use those 3 hours as practice or test and tune time for the league. Then you get the parts, build the car the way it is supposed to be for the league race, but find out you struggle tuning it to your driving style or whatever and want to choose one of the other cars? Well go spend another 3 hours unlocking the parts for that car. A lot of people turn to league racing because they have limited time to spend, and want to spend the few hours they have each week racing against friends who they know will race clean in fairly balanced cars, so "oh well, grind more" won't be an option for some of them.

Also, what will this do for tune sharing? Will you just not be able to install a tune that has a part you don't have unlocked yet? I know the tuning community hasn't been a thing as much since the old "storefront" system went away, but it will be tough to get downloads for your tunes if they are limited. Alternatively, if you can download tunes with parts you don't have unlocked, then that is actually a huge positive as it would fix some of the above issues.

I personally don't get it just in the name of "progression." All racing games have a built-in progression system: getting better at driving, learning new tracks, and learning to drive different types of cars. I've always felt driving/racing has had 2 key "angles" that attract and engage people and make them fall in love with it, either the thrill of competition and the self-improvement it takes to compete, or simply the joy of building a dream car and throwing it around, and I don't really see how either of those are enhanced by an additional grind (getting better itself is a bit of a grind though of course, turning a lot of laps). If people just want to watch little stat bars go up there are tons of MMORPGs that do that and are constantly criticized for being grindy and having unoriginal/boring grindy goals/quests... but somehow when that grinding is put in a racing game it's cool?

As someone who has organized community events since FM1, and is still organizing weekly community races on FM7 despite so many people moving on to other games and how old and shallow FM7 is, and planned on continuing to do so with FM8, this might be the dealbreaker for me. Building balanced cars for a season is already a lot of work, but having to put in 6+ hours before I can even start on the process? Yeah... I dunno about that. Maybe the manufacturer bonus that was mentioned somewhere makes a big difference though.

The rest of what we saw though? I dunno, it's fine I guess, maybe. Maybe info about how strategy stuff will work, whether or not the draft actually works right, and what kind of lobby controls we have will make me feel more positive about it. Well thought out/balanced strategy options, a draft that isn't broken and ideally has some options for strength in lobby settings, the ability to multiply tire wear/fuel burn in lobby settings, being able to limit tire compounds and force people use certain compounds and so on could all make the racing itself interesting and exciting enough to be worth the additional grinding.
I think most people won't realize just how fast they'll get through some cars when racing online or just playing career.

You might buy and use a car for a career event and end up leveling it most of the way. 2-3 hours seems like a lot at first but that is going to go by pretty quickly when you actually race.

Not to mention, I'm personally into the idea of having a reason to use intermediate upgrades that I have otherwise completely ignored in any other Forza title. Going to be a lot of enjoyment out of, "Hey I just unlocked exhaust and a intake manifold", and then get to see the improvement it made to your car in the next race. Since AI will just match your PI now, you don't have to worry about maintaining a certain PI.

When you are in online lobbies you will know that a person has at least a certain amount of hours behind the wheel of a car to be at a certain PI. People won't be able to just buy a car, drop a bunch of credits on upgrades, and proceed to wreck into everyone else.
While I agree that the AI matching your PI is a good move (and one I loved in the Horizon games, and made AI racing more tolerable), that won't happen in multiplayer, so your options for spending time with the car in multiplayer lobbies will be very limited for a lot of cars, especially if you want to be even somewhat competitive.

It also won't have any impact on wrecking, as people who want to crash will crash regardless of what they drive, or more likely will just buy a car that already starts off close to the PI limit for their chosen class. With the safety rating system that has been mentioned elsewhere (also a very positive thing, assuming it works right), this hopefully won't be a big deal though anyways.
 
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Usually optimization involves cutting some things for bring the performance up. They had a demo a year ago that had RT ingame, but now it's absent. Sure the PC Max Settings will have it back, but they claimed that SX and SS will have it too and that the graphics they showed last year had feature parity with the Series X version.


you might have a point

they've changed the forza suppoert page again

it went from this (after the xbox showcase):

FyboozjWwAAH1ys.png


to this (after yesterday's Forza Monthy):
WhatsApp Image 2023-06-14 at 13.38.59.jpg


My guess is that, since the game is still undergoing performance tweaks, they have it disabled. But being vague is going to really play against them. And having a month between each info drop is again going to let rumours of both overexpections as well as disdain for choices.


They could also be fearing blowback for "the most powerful gaming console" running their flagship racer with basic RT reflections, while PC gets to enjoy a significantly more advanced RT Global Illumination System.
 
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Does it bother anyone that progression save is online required? Not me, but I know some don't like the online requirements.
Where you saw that?
but the lack of Stellantis Italian brands (other than Maserati) is worrying.
It isnt just the Italian Brands
All modern ones dont show up for some reason, no Modern Dodge, no Modern Chrysler, no Modern Peugeot....
To me its a big shame that these once great racing series (Forza Motorsport and Gran Turismo) appear to have changed the direction theyre going in and lost track of what I always thought was one of the best things about the older titles. Freedom of choice.

In FM4 the only restriction you had tlwas credits, with enough credits you could buy whatever car you wabted, tune it and enter whatever race it was eligible for at any time. GT4 was very similar albeit with licenses and aome cars locked as prizes, but otherwise it was much the same. As were titles in both series prior to those games.

But now we unlock each event after completing the previous one. We unlock cars as we progress through the events. We unlock tuning parts as we level up the cars in a specific order.

What this means is we're all going to be doing the ecents in the same order, unlocking cars in the same order and tuning cars with the same parts as you need to in order to remain competetive withing each tour.

It's sad that developers seem to have lost the knack, or desire, to offer these games as open experiences with a lot of player freedom anymore.


People were complaning about lack of difficulty and too much freedom, they want fight more to get stuff
So they are giving it to user base
 
Looks like we will be getting Updates for the game, monthly or weekly...Sounds good.
I do think live service games can work.
it’s just studios like EA and Rockstar that use it as an excuse to squeeze money out of their customers
All “live service” should mean is just “Here’s the game, and we’ll keep adding free **** so you don’t run out of things to do“
Of course, there is a balance. GT7 focuses too much on new cars to realise that there are now more cars than there are events that they can actually be used in, whilst FH5 throws Hypercars at you like they’re going out of fashion.
 
People were complaning about lack of difficulty and too much freedom, they want fight more to get stuff
So they are giving it to user base
What "people" werecomplaing about freedom? Complaing about games being too easy, perhaps, games chucking too many cars at you, perhaps, but freedom of choice? Show me who and how many people argued against having freedom of choice.
 
..whilst FH5 throws Hypercars at you like they’re going out of fashion.

That's the funny part to me; I don't think Horizon's approach is necessarily the wrong one, just maybe not what many players have been wanting. The way I look at things is FH throws the best and greatest cars plus upgrade parts at you like candy completely on purpose, because look at how many ways you are being encouraged to use them; the game's default races, custom races and EventLab, Super7, Horizon Tour (which includes racing, drifting, and Playground games), jumps, speed zones, speed traps, trailblazers, photo mode, simple freeroaming, and since FH5 specifically, even just collecting cars to fill up a collection book is an activity in and of itself.

If you had to contend with a leveling system and some grind to get everything on top of, you know, actually spending the time to use the cars in the first place, I think there would have been a loooooot of complaints. Yeah, there's "too much freedom" and a not small amount of choice paralysis in Horizon, but I think that's the point of Horizon; get the cars you want easily so you can get to do the things you wanna do more quickly.

Where the difference matters is that approach only works because we have this big open world. With FM, you do not have the option to drive or fast travel between events or just hoon on random roads and muck about. A more structured progression system matters a lot more because if you're gonna spend 100% of the time on a track, the game better keep giving you good incentives to do that. There is probably going to be less different kinds of stuff to do in FM so what you do... do, has to matter to keep your interest up.

The slightly spicy opinion I have is I think it was unreasonable to expect a properly structured career mode out of FH5. The Festival Playlist and structuring the stories into a checklist helped some, but eventually jumping off the deep end with every hypercar you could possibly want and doing your own thing was always the idea with Horizon.
 
What "people" werecomplaing about freedom? Complaing about games being too easy, perhaps, games chucking too many cars at you, perhaps, but freedom of choice? Show me who and how many people argued against having freedom of choice.
There were a ton of complaints about the single player being aimless with no goal other than just buying cars and upgrading them to win races. It was one of the constant complaints regarding the single player for FM7
 
There were a ton of complaints about the single player being aimless with no goal other than just buying cars and upgrading them to win races. It was one of the constant complaints regarding the single player for FM7
Ah, FM7, the pinnacle of the series. I dont remember a single complaint about users wanting less freedom. If there were any, they were certainly few and far between. But generally people wanted more IIRC, a better structure and more freedom due to the poor implementation of the homologation system.

Why is FM4 often regarded as the best game in the series? Why do people look back at that title fondly? Becuase it had a wide open format yet also had a structure to it that felt natural as you progressed in the manner in which you wanted to progress.

Why do people look back fondlly on GT3 and GT4? For the exact same reasons. The games afterwards started to restrict player freedoms.

Not only that, you could but whatever parts you wanted at any time to tune your cars. You didnt need a different currency for each and every specific car in your garage.

I think the complaints about FM7 are being confused here as complaints about having too much choice. Thats certainly not the case, FM7 wasnt great, but it wasn't because of that.
 
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In FM7 single player all cars were provided with homologation parts applied so you literally didn’t even need to customize them. Just choose a car and race that single player series….
 
Why is FM4 often regarded as the best game in the series?
because of its car variety, custom lobbies, community features, generally bug free experience and more. Not the career mode. The only aspect of career mode that is praised is that it starts you with slow cars, unlike the newer games.

FM7 is significantly more open than FM4, because you can jump into any type of car class/car type to start the career mode including Mclaren f1s and 60s Formula 1 cars. IT was essentially FM4s event list posing as a career mode, with even more events.

In fact leading up to the reveal of FM, lots of comments could be found saying FM3 and FM2 had better single player career mode. There are yT reviews or retrospectives saying the same.
 
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generally bug free experience

FM4 had a major memory leak issue at relaese. FM7 on pc installed on my system since 2017 and not a single issue :D It just works and is also my favourite game of the series. Until the new FM comes out that is :)
 
As far as I can tell this hasn’t been mentioned in the thread yet - in yesterdays video the dev said there will no longer be assist debuffs (I.e there will be no benefit to running clutch or ABS off)
 
you might have a point

they've changed the forza suppoert page again

it went from this (after the xbox showcase):

View attachment 1264951

to this (after yesterday's Forza Monthy):
View attachment 1264952

My guess is that, since the game is still undergoing performance tweaks, they have it disabled. But being vague is going to really play against them. And having a month between each info drop is again going to let rumours of both overexpections as well as disdain for choices.


They could also be fearing blowback for "the most powerful gaming console" running their flagship racer with basic RT reflections, while PC gets to enjoy a significantly more advanced RT Global Illumination System.
We need to think logically about performance implications of RT on console, we have a good point of comparison in GT7, Polyphony is one of Sony's most technically proficient studios, they've been experimenting with RT before PS5 even launched, while many others like Santa Monica, ND and Guerilla launched PS5 games with zero RT implementation. We've seen from multiplatform games comparisons that Series X and PS5 perform about the same with or without RT, we have two 4k 60fps track racers with largely the same hardware requirements and common goals and bottlenecks. PD have stated that RT is too demanding to be used during 60 fps racing, Turn10 claims to be able to do it, but this latest build doesn't have it. Hardware resources are not infinite, something always has to be sacrificed. Historically PD has always managed to pull more impressive and hardware intensive rendering techniques out of the same generation than Turn10 which were always conservative on graphics but had more steady performance. Lots of question marks left after this showing.
 
On the topic of graphics:

Keep in mind that GT7 cannot keep a stable 60 fps. Sure, it may look better graphically, but Forza Motorsport has always aimed for a stable framerate. I imagine that is still the case.

Still, FM looks great.



Personally, I'm excited for the career mode over anything else. It looks fun. I probably won't replay it, as it doesn't have many as many races as I hoped and the weather is the same every time, but at least free play should be equally viable for car + credit progression as it has been in the past. I'll take it.

The AI also may not be on the same level as Sophy, but... it's actually here, isn't it? Sophy was a 4-car demo that can't even be played anymore, this is a full 24-car game where this improved AI is always present.

It looks good. I won't pre-order, but it seems very likely I'll be buying it in October.
 
you might have a point

they've changed the forza suppoert page again

it went from this (after the xbox showcase):

View attachment 1264951

to this (after yesterday's Forza Monthy):
View attachment 1264952

My guess is that, since the game is still undergoing performance tweaks, they have it disabled. But being vague is going to really play against them. And having a month between each info drop is again going to let rumours of both overexpections as well as disdain for choices.


They could also be fearing blowback for "the most powerful gaming console" running their flagship racer with basic RT reflections, while PC gets to enjoy a significantly more advanced RT Global Illumination System.
Why would it be blowback for a $500 console to run RT reflections when it's going to take a $1200+ GPU to properly run RTGI?

We need to think logically about performance implications of RT on console, we have a good point of comparison in GT7, Polyphony is one of Sony's most technically proficient studios, they've been experimenting with RT before PS5 even launched, while many others like Santa Monica, ND and Guerilla launched PS5 games with zero RT implementation. We've seen from multiplatform games comparisons that Series X and PS5 perform about the same with or without RT, we have two 4k 60fps track racers with largely the same hardware requirements and common goals and bottlenecks. PD have stated that RT is too demanding to be used during 60 fps racing, Turn10 claims to be able to do it, but this latest build doesn't have it. Hardware resources are not infinite, something always has to be sacrificed. Historically PD has always managed to pull more impressive and hardware intensive rendering techniques out of the same generation than Turn10 which were always conservative on graphics but had more steady performance. Lots of question marks left after this showing.

AMD CUs have RT core in each CU.

PS5 has 36 CU.

XSX has 52 CU.

That is a 44% increase in RT cores over the PS5.

PS5 games are not a proper comparison.

The gap in RT cores between the Xbox Series S and PS5 is the same as PS5 to XSX.
 
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If RT doesn't make it, it will have ZERO impact on my purchase decision. I am playing GT7 without RT and loving every second of it. I am sure I will feel the same about Forza.

If it got cut, that sucks. But I am sure they have their reasons.
 
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