Forza3 can't be compared with GT5....

[Dravonic]

I just wish the game looked that good.

The only thing these have that the game doesn't, is the crazy resolution and anti-aliasing. It looks considerably worse without that crazy anti-aliasing but the game is surprisingly close to that since all the other things like textures, lighting, models, etc, are the same.

But of course, you know that already.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

It's my understanding that it didn't.

Actually, GT3, GT: Concept and GT4 (not sure about GT1/2) all had telemetry data in the form of the data logger. Unfortunately, GT4's data logger wasn't quite as detailed as the one in GT3.

 

[Bogie 19th]

The only thing these have that the game doesn't, is the crazy resolution and anti-aliasing. It looks considerably worse without that crazy anti-aliasing but the game is surprisingly close to that since all the other things like textures, lighting, models, etc, are the same.

But of course, you know that already.

If you are talking about GT5p, I disagree. If you are talking about GT5, I have no idea, since I haven't seen the game in real life.

Actually, GT3, GT: Concept and GT4 (not sure about GT1/2) all had telemetry data in the form of the data logger. Unfortunately, GT4's data logger wasn't quite as detailed as the one in GT3.

I have never played any of those titles, so I can't confirm. I only read on the GT forums at PS.com that GT4's telemetry wasn't as in depth as Forza 2.

 

[otago]

After I reduced colour A LOT on my TV graphics became better.

Interesting that environment palette almost washed out but cars still bright and colourful. Looks like they are oversaturated

 

[aspect8]

MustangSVT, iRacing is not innovative. It's goal is absolute realism, innovation is not a part of that; only imitation. Games have previously managed to do each of those things before. Granted, not many do all of those better, but the point is it's not achieving anything exactly new...

What do you want in your racing sim? Dinosaurs? And which sim do you suggest does everything iRacing does better? You didn't mention that.

The problem is F3 has managed to get away with only being compared to console games. Notably a prologue, NFS shift and...Grid. Managing to only marginally get ahead of those should be sounding off alarm bells somewhere.

Probably because it is a console game... I don't get what you're saying here. The reason it gets compared to console sims is because that's what it is. It's a game designed to run on 4 year old hardware and appeal to a mass market. If it did get compared to a PC sim, who's to say it the PC sim wouldn't get reamed on the graphics and value areas? Again, you haven't actually mentioned what PC sim you'd like to compare it to.

The Auction House sucks the fat one compared to online distribution, such as say, the millions of sites where setups, liveries, mods, complete cars, whole racing series, etc are located, and can be downloaded for free.

Really? A single, comprehensive developer-supported storefront that delivers setups, liveries, and complete cars sucks the fat one compared to browsing several (probably not millions) of community websites to find the content you want?

Same with the livery editor. Great, you can use some vector shapes. Give anyone who knows what they're doing the choice between a scalable, stretchable and colourable triangle and the lasso tool in Photoshop, and it's triangle: 0, tool made for this kind of thing: 9001. That, and there's better support, it's more widely used, and it doesn't decide to suddenly go all over the place.

I've had this discussion regarding methods for livery creation before. I assume by photoshop you mean the version you bought legitimately for $500? Is it fair to expect every single user of your game to have that software and an understanding of how to use it? Given that Turn 10 said their goal with Forza 3 was to make racing games more accessible, that would a major foot-shooting incident. Do you know of a PC sim that allows automatic downloading of other people liveries when racing online? If so, how does it work?

DLC...great. 40 cars, and everything. I'd rather 400 cars, ie every single LMP1, LMP2, LMP750, LMP900 car from the last decade. Oh, and they come with their own separate championships for each class and each year. people want.
That works for...basically every PC sim game out there.

That's what you want. Not necessarily what other people want. Some people want to race in track day style cars. Some people want to drive their daily driver. Some people want to drive vintage cars. No surprises that a racing game dedicated to touring cars gives a superior touring car experience than a game like Forza or Gran Turismo. And again, you haven't named the PC sims that do have this.

Going on, new game modes in F3 are supposed to get people excited?
Someone do me a favor, and list ALL the game modes in F3.

Tournaments, Circuit, Point to Point, Drag, Drift, Cat and Mouse, Tag, and whatever else the community comes up with. But seriously, if Cat and Mouse doesn't get you excited, you have no soul...

 

[TBR 427]

What do you want in your racing sim? Dinosaurs? And which sim do you suggest does everything iRacing does better? You didn't mention that.

Who said anything about me wanting an innovative sim? Arcade racers have the freedom to be creative, especially with their primary game mechanics. Go play some Halfbrick Rocket Racers; it's got a GREAT game mechanic (the boosters that are more 'powerful' when you're firing them off a wall). THAT is innovation; a new mechanic and levels designed around it, to make the best of it.
What do I want from a sim? More original content (tracks like El Capitan, cars like the Citroen GT), continually improving physics and graphics (both are important). I want a car list that introduces me to new cars. Sure I could drive around in new Gallardos and 458s and whatever all day, but I'd like them to include cool cars I haven't heard of before. Same with tracks. There's more, but it's going to be a bit tl;dr for here.

Probably because it is a console game... I don't get what you're saying here. The reason it gets compared to console sims is because that's what it is. It's a game designed to run on 4 year old hardware and appeal to a mass market. If it did get compared to a PC sim, who's to say it the PC sim wouldn't get reamed on the graphics and value areas? Again, you haven't actually mentioned what PC sim you'd like to compare it to.

It was designed to run on 4 year old dedicated, not-changing hardware, and that hardware only. We both know that, as such, it doesn't look like a 4 year old game, because unlike PC games, it doesn't have to be run by billions of configurations. As for what PC sim? Let's go for all of them.

Really? A single, comprehensive developer-supported storefront that delivers setups, liveries, and complete cars sucks the fat one compared to browsing several (probably not millions) of community websites to find the content you want?

Sarcasm isn't going to change the fact that PCs walk ALL OVER consoles in these regards. If you have trouble finding content for something on the internet, it's your fault for not being able to Google better than a 5 year old.

I've had this discussion regarding methods for livery creation before. I assume by photoshop you mean the version you bought legitimately for $500?

Oh god no. Photoshop actually came with my computer, and I've slowly built it up (I use it a lot for uni and work). Elements has more than enough power for a livery editor, and it's cheap as chips. Heck, if you want to be even more cheap, try Gimp. Seriously, give it a go, what with being free and everything.

Is it fair to expect every single user of your game to have that software and an understanding of how to use it? Given that Turn 10 said their goal with Forza 3 was to make racing games more accessible, that would a major foot-shooting incident.

No, but I expect people to NOT go into an OMG OMG OMG WAT DO I DO frenzy before actually looking into it. There's billions of great guides that will take you step by step, click by click through downloading gimp, using it to create liveries, saving them, heck, even exporting them as your own complete car in a racing series, with it's own designation within a championship.

Do you know of a PC sim that allows automatic downloading of other people liveries when racing online? If so, how does it work?

I don't want that, so I've never looked into it TBH. That may be more to do with me doing a lot of group racing online, so you just download the car pack you want to use, and everyone includes their own livery in that.

That's what you want. Not necessarily what other people want. Some people want to race in track day style cars. Some people want to drive their daily driver. Some people want to drive vintage cars. No surprises that a racing game dedicated to touring cars gives a superior touring car experience than a game like Forza or Gran Turismo. And again, you haven't named the PC sims that do have this.

Track day style cars? Like a M3 or something? Daily driver? Civic mod. Vintage cars? Look up GTL, PnG, etc. No surprises that a game dedicated for Touring cars has a better selection of touring cars and tracks than, say, a console game. Oh, and that includes several years of DTM, a handful or YEARS of V8 Supercars (ie the ENTIRE field), the BTCC and WTCC cars, classic touring cars, GT500 AND GT300 entire classes for years, all with the championships for each lass, each year, heck each manufacturer.

I don't need to name them, because they pretty-much all have that.

Tournaments, Circuit, Point to Point, Drag, Drift, Cat and Mouse, Tag, and whatever else the community comes up with. But seriously, if Cat and Mouse doesn't get you excited, you have no soul...

I play GMOD. You're going to need a LOT more, and a LOT better than that to excite me.


Your argument is kinda weak, because from the sound of it, you haven't played (let alone owned) any PC games since 2005. Get GTR2, GTR Evo (+Race On), RFactor, and LFS/IRacing and whatever else, THEN form your opinion again, as you clearly only know things about console racing, and nothing of PC racing.

 

[Spec M]

I don't think some take into consideration the irrelevance of some of the content thats being brought to the light here.
I could careless about 3D trees or a spectators shadow. Does Forza 3 even have spectators?
If they did I more than likely wouldn't careless about their shadows either nor the phenomenal 3d trees.
GT and Forza are two great series, one has an abundant amount of cars the other has a decent amount,
one has nicely detailed trees and some great textures the other has 'just' trees and ok textures.
Whats more important to you?

 

[Jay]

I have never played any of those titles, so I can't confirm. I only read on the GT forums at PS.com that GT4's telemetry wasn't as in depth as Forza 2.

It's in the form of a logger, similar but not quite as in depth as a race teams logger which you can check after the race.

It's doesn't bring up real time display showing suspension travel etc like forza.

 

[WolfRacer543]

To me, that's evolution, not revolution.

While I'm not denying PD is powering through the technology at blistering pace (yet still haven't released anything...), the fact is; all they're doing is evolutionary.

From here on it, it's just a case of engine optimization, so you can cram more stuff in. they have a power limit (must run smoothly on a PS3), and they just have to sneakily code things so they can do more. More efficient LOD car so that the cars on the other end of Suzuka look no different, but the closer cars look better, and so on and so forth.

I suppose what they did with GTPSP and it's 1pixel shake could be considered innovative, but TBH shaking images for a motion blur effect isn't exactly new IRL or in a game, and they just decided to make it useful.

To do the physics, it's just cram as many of the most important variables in as you can, test to see how close it is (I think it's something ridiculous like 98% accurate), and then mess with the less important ones to cover the lack of pop rivet distortion modelling and the other billion tiny physics things in a real car.

Except for the odd feature like a livery editor or visible race line... though I remember making custom paintjobs in PC games long before forza, but it was hardly a "feature", it was just opening the game's files which happened to be in a format the equivelent of a BMP and editing them then renaming them so the game would recognise them.

IMO it is innovative to have good, realistic physics. You can't just walk up to a physics professor and ask how should I implement physics... you actually have to come up with models that simplify real world physics but still come up with something good. As things "evolve" those models often have to be completely replaced. I dont know a lot about iRacing (I'm not paying that much for a game ), but lifted of wikipedia

"iRacing has a new, proprietary tire model that is partly based on the company's own research in a tire testing facility. They had full "shop access" to every vehicle modeled in the service to figure out physical and inertia parameters of individual parts."

Assuming the tire model is realistic, to me, that's innovative. If you dont think it is, thats fine, I'm not going to argue what you feel is innovative... but if you dont think coming up with a tire model that works and can be implemented into a game is innovative, you might as well argue no racing game has been innovative in the past 15 years GT1's innovation was bringing a sim to console with a lot of cars, but its not like there weren't sims around before that, and they had cars... so using that argument GT1 was no innovative, it was just evolving on what was already around. Except for the odd feature like a livery editor or visible race line... though I remember making custom paintjobs in PC games long before forza, but it was hardly a "feature", it was just opening the game's files which happened to be in a format the equivelent of a BMP and editing them then renaming them so the game would recognise them.

 

[StogyBear]

You guys want real reflections check out NFS Shift's hood cam. Everything is reflected accordingly and incredibly smoothly. I can't seem to find it but it looks excellent.

 

[ShawnPhillips]

You guys want real reflections check out NFS Shift's hood cam. Everything is reflected accordingly and incredibly smoothly. I can't seem to find it but it looks excellent.

I was playing the Forza demo earlier today and from the cockpit and hood cam views you can see the reflection of the other cars in the race. you can even see the brake lights in the reflection.

 

[niky]

Except for the odd feature like a livery editor or visible race line... though I remember making custom paintjobs in PC games long before forza, but it was hardly a "feature", it was just opening the game's files which happened to be in a format the equivelent of a BMP and editing them then renaming them so the game would recognise them.

Mhmmm.... NASCAR... the good old days of BMP and HEX editing... used to make my own 2D mazes, too (for a roaming-style PACMAN clone called Cloud Kingdoms... I actually cracked open the EXE file on a whim and decoded the HEX-based level maps!).

I suppose what they did with GTPSP and it's 1pixel shake could be considered innovative, but TBH shaking images for a motion blur effect isn't exactly new IRL or in a game, and they just decided to make it useful.

It's innovative if no one else has thought of it. And it's not motion blur in the sense that other games do it (by smearing the pixels in each frame of picture)... it's "camera shake".

 

[niky]

double post

 

[aspect8]

TBR, you've created a very odd post that I can't seem to quote without extensive reformatting, so please excuse the poor quoting.

What do I want from a sim? More original content (tracks like El Capitan, cars like the Citroen GT), continually improving physics and graphics (both are important). I want a car list that introduces me to new cars. Sure I could drive around in new Gallardos and 458s and whatever all day, but I'd like them to include cool cars I haven't heard of before. Same with tracks.

Forza 3 adds 2 real worth tracks (Le Sarthe and Cata). It adds several (epic) fantasy tracks. It adds several new cars that depending on your point of view are pretty rare/unique in racing games. I don't know many other games with the Pontiac Firebird, or BMW M1.

It was designed to run on 4 year old dedicated, not-changing hardware, and that hardware only. We both know that, as such, it doesn't look like a 4 year old game, because unlike PC games, it doesn't have to be run by billions of configurations. As for what PC sim? Let's go for all of them.

It's still 4 year old hardware. Optimisation only gets you so far, you've still only got 48 shader pipes at 500mhz. You're still dealing with GPUs that are 4 generations old, from the dawn of the unified shader era. PC Sims... you're saying that every single PC sim currently available is better than Forza 3?

Sarcasm isn't going to change the fact that PCs walk ALL OVER consoles in these regards. If you have trouble finding content for something on the internet, it's your fault for not being able to Google better than a 5 year old.

I know how to google. I'm questioning why you think the game is drastically inferior because the developer decided to provide the community tools and storage space themselves? Why do they "suck a fat one" for attempting to build this? The community websites are still there, people still share their creations on the net. The difference is they added a browser into the game for people that want to do it that way. And a lot of people do.

There's billions of great guides that will take you step by step, click by click through downloading gimp, using it to create liveries, saving them, heck, even exporting them as your own complete car in a racing series, with it's own designation within a championship.

I have gimp and use it regularly for work. On my computer. Which is not my xbox. So in your world the requirements for someone to use the livery editor on their xbox game is to buy a pc, download Gimp, learn to use it, find a place online to host their files, find the community website, sign up, all so that noone else in an online lobby can see what you've done? Unless of course you link them to your files, they download them, put them in the right folder, etc etc? What you've suggested seems to be a pretty similar learning curve for the average user as just pasting circles and triangles.

Oh, and that includes several years of DTM, a handful or YEARS of V8 Supercars (ie the ENTIRE field), the BTCC and WTCC cars, classic touring cars, GT500 AND GT300 entire classes for years, all with the championships for each lass, each year, heck each manufacturer.

I don't need to name them, because they pretty-much all have that.

Really? Here is the car and track list for Live for Speed. IT does not contain several years of DTM, V8 Supercars, BTCC and WTCC, GT500 and GT300. It doesn't even contain real cars. Here is the car list for iRacing. It doesn't have all the things you spoke of either. I haven't owned or even played rFactor, so I don't know what it has.

I assume by GMOD you mean Garry's mod. To compare a PC FPS mod to a retail console racing game is pretty ridiculous. There are a plethora of reasons why mods are impractical on consoles. I doubt you will ever see it happen. So console games have only what the devs provide. Turn 10 provides a storefront that noone else has attempted, that replicates and in some ways improves on what is available in the PC User Content space, and you say it sucks. That's also ridiculous.

Which brings me to my last point. Your cop-out argument of "you clearly only know things about console racing, and nothing of PC racing." is pretty rude, presumptuous and wrong. I have owned and played Life for Speed (S1) and played GTR Evo. I didn't really stick with either of them for too long, for various reasons. Life for Speed didn't have enough variety and Evo has a bizarre incompatibility with my sound card that crashes too much for me to put up with. Life for Speed is still installed though and we break it out regularly at LANs. I played iRacing at a friends and was interested, until I looked at the pricing structure.

At the end of the day, in my purchase, I did compare Forza to PC sims. The physics isn't quite up there with PC games. The graphics aren't as good as some modern PC sims. But there is so much more content, so much more races to be done with friends, so many different things to do, and just more fun to be had. And, it was easier; no install, no driver tweaking, no file copying. That's entirely subjective, of course, but that's how I feel. That doesn't give you the right to say my opinion is worthless because I don't play PC sims as much as you do.

 

[TBR 427]

Forza 3 adds 2 real worth tracks (Le Sarthe and Cata). It adds several (epic) fantasy tracks. It adds several new cars that depending on your point of view are pretty rare/unique in racing games. I don't know many other games with the Pontiac Firebird, or BMW M1.

TOCA 3 had both, if I remember correctly. Though it might be some other Pontiac, like a bonneville or something. Doesn't REALLY matter.


It's still 4 year old hardware. Optimisation only gets you so far, you've still only got 48 shader pipes at 500mhz. You're still dealing with GPUs that are 4 generations old, from the dawn of the unified shader era. PC Sims... you're saying that every single PC sim currently available is better than Forza 3?

Not at all. Rather, that it's not really all that smart to compare the visuals of something that developers only have to optimize and create for ONCE to something that they have to make work on everything released over the last 3 or so years. That makes A LOT of difference, in develoment time, development strategy, content, and quality.

But it's not like they aren't working around it; I can't remember who it was (ID I think), but they're pushing forward with megatexutres to combat that problem; 128000x128000 bitmaps apparently work more efficiently, allowing more massive textures, more detail, etc.

I know how to google. I'm questioning why you think the game is drastically inferior because the developer decided to provide the community tools and storage space themselves?

It's drastically inferior because they HAD to do this. Even without a truly official forum/area, GTR2 has more online support, custom skins, downloadable content, help and a much better community than anything on XBOX EVER will. The community should be responsible for this, and it's truly an enthusiasts community as a result, which I believe is much, much better for it.


I have gimp and use it regularly for work. On my computer. Which is not my xbox. So in your world the requirements for someone to use the livery editor on their xbox game is to buy a pc, download Gimp, learn to use it, find a place online to host their files, find the community website, sign up, all so that noone else in an online lobby can see what you've done? Unless of course you link them to your files, they download them, put them in the right folder, etc etc? What you've suggested seems to be a pretty similar learning curve for the average user as just pasting circles and triangles.


Really? Here is the car and track list for Live for Speed. IT does not contain several years of DTM, V8 Supercars, BTCC and WTCC, GT500 and GT300. It doesn't even contain real cars. Here is the car list for iRacing. It doesn't have all the things you spoke of either. I haven't owned or even played rFactor, so I don't know what it has.

Try one of the ISI-based games (which you haven't played).

Actually, just have a quick browse through the mods for GTR2 at nogrip. You should probably add several tiers of Nascar to that list, as well.

LFS, is always just 'original' cars. iRacing is in it's infancy.

I assume by GMOD you mean Garry's mod. To compare a PC FPS mod to a retail console racing game is pretty ridiculous. There are a plethora of reasons why mods are impractical on consoles. I doubt you will ever see it happen. So console games have only what the devs provide. Turn 10 provides a storefront that noone else has attempted, that replicates and in some ways improves on what is available in the PC User Content space, and you say it sucks. That's also ridiculous.

I'm comparing game modes. I don't care if I have to download them. They are separate modes of play, with new mechanics and are different, out of the ordinary, etc. For whatever reason other games can't match this, I simply don't care. I'm not going to say it's great...for a 360 game. I'm going to say what it is compared to the benchmark, full stop. No conceded passes, no excuses.

If you have to add...for a (whatever) to quantify something, it's not really all that good in the scheme of things, is it?

Which brings me to my last point. Your cop-out argument of "you clearly only know things about console racing, and nothing of PC racing." is pretty rude, presumptuous and wrong. I have owned and played Life for Speed (S1) and played GTR Evo. I didn't really stick with either of them for too long, for various reasons. Life for Speed didn't have enough variety and Evo has a bizarre incompatibility with my sound card that crashes too much for me to put up with. Life for Speed is still installed though and we break it out regularly at LANs. I played iRacing at a friends and was interested, until I looked at the pricing structure.

At the end of the day, in my purchase, I did compare Forza to PC sims. The physics isn't quite up there with PC games. The graphics aren't as good as some modern PC sims. But there is so much more content, so much more races to be done with friends, so many different things to do, and just more fun to be had. And, it was easier; no install, no driver tweaking, no file copying. That's entirely subjective, of course, but that's how I feel. That doesn't give you the right to say my opinion is worthless because I don't play PC sims as much as you do.

Did you get the patch for GTR Evo? What did Simbin say? Did NoGrip offer any useful advice?

If you had stuck with PC gaming, you would have known about the billions of mods and the amount of content for it. The V8 supercars, SuperGT, DTM, etc I mentioned SHOULD have rung a bell; "oh I have FVRV8", "oh yeah Super GT500 mod", etc.

Of course, not everybody is going to go looking, not everybody is going to know that there is a wealth of online support that will have anything and everything you want.
And? Well, the people who do find it, are the more enthusiastic ones, and they're rewarded.

Sorry if I sound a bit offensive, but I think your take on PC gaming is about as useful as Otago's on GT4. You lack experience with them. You've sampled a game with fictional everythings, and a game that glitched out on your machine.

That is not nearly enough to form an opinion on gaming for PC's.

 

[aspect8]

LFS, is always just 'original' cars. iRacing is in it's infancy.

So when you said you wanted 400 cars, in every category, and that pretty much every pc sim had them, you must of meant "pretty much all except those ones". That's the problem with wild sweeping statements... they're easy to get wrong.

I think your take on PC gaming is about as useful as Otago's on GT4.

Putting me in the same basket as otago? Harsh. What I played of L4S and Evo was more than enough to form an opinion. Not an overwhelmingly positive one, and not the same as yours, but still an opinion. The fact that racing games such and GT, Forza and Shift sell so well while GTR and L4S remain relatively niche games suggests that I'm not alone in my preferences.

You can go on and on about how much content is available out there in terms of mods and skins. However, as far as I'm concerned, I can get more than enough content and fun for my needs from the Forza and GT games. I can get that fun out of the box, kicking back on the couch with a beer, with no mess and no fuss. For a developer to take user customisation seriously and support it with the robust storefront and trading system is a good thing.

 

[Tenacious D]

Ya know, I'm gonna have to side with aspect to an extent. Playing the game for a few hours has opened my eyes. It's pretty different from the demo. Then again, I'm in the 200hp range I really enjoy. When I go to higher performance cars, they may feel rambunctious and contrary without some mods to let me tame them to my liking.

I do appreciate my PC sims, but they do seem very dry and plain, and... surprisingly boring compared to Prologue and FW3 - having fun with T10's logo, if you don't catch that, it's definitely a "w". Anyway, Forza 3 the game, not the demo, feels like it's square in the middle of Live For Speed, GTR, Toca and Prologue. Well, and Forza 2, it's definitely a Forza game, but the warts from Forza 2 do seem to have been ironed out, and it seems way more bug free. It does look like T10 finally did their homework and gave us a Forza that feels simmish the way Prologue does. And that livery editor is just awesome. The tire samples still make me cringe, though.

 

[ItsHim]

Except for the odd feature like a livery editor or visible race line...

Strangely enough, a racing line is not really a "good" thing. It's a compromise. If you try to treat a racing sim a bit seriously, you're constantly looking for breaking points. The casual player won't, but we will. Because we care about corner entry speeds, trade them in for corner exit speeds because that's how it works in the real world. Trouble is: more often than not, there's simply not enough detail on the track to really get them right. If we're lucky, we get in the rhythm and remember gear/rev by heart (or by ear). Grid didn't have it, and it worked wonders combined with the damage model. The gear change indicator of GT is just the clue I sometimes need.

In my view a good thing is, like Forza does, just to show the braking line.


IMO it is innovative to have good, realistic physics.

(...)

As you said, lots of brains is needed to get anything like a real world set of rules into a console game. But, physics is worth nothing if it doesn't serve the gameplay. The main effect of "physics" is, that there are so much more possible inputs for the player to make. He has to negotiate the car through a corner at speed, not just flick it round at roughly the appropriate speed. If you have "physics" working, you'll gradually or suddenly lose control and can manage that state. If you don't have physics (as in an arcade racer), you'll probably slide, lose speed/acceleration and that's the main penalty.

(...)

I can't help but have another go at how gameplay has evolved.

In the real world, a main concern has always been how to set rules to keep competition fair and close. As Forza is first about competition, and second about the other stuff, I'd expect they address this issue.

Freedom is nothing without limitations, because freedom gets its real value on how far you can push the limits or how long it takes before you reach those limitations.

How much balancing is there in the game? Well, it seems, and do correct me if I'm wrong, the main balancing in Forza is again the PI rating. That didn't work in Forza 2 and it won't work in Forza3 because no developer can foresee what the thousands of players come up with.

There's, again, no easy way for an online lobby to chose from a pre-defined set of cars each being competitive with each other. What did you do in FM2? Set rules concerning weight, drive-train, or disable tuning altogether and force all players to use the same cars.

I did this a lot with the Seat Supercup. And both seasoned players and newcomers hugely enjoyed this type of gameplay. Not exclusively, but the verdict was generally very good. You wouldn't need "one button racing" or the need to constantly look for "a better tune" if there was a predefined set of car selections. You could have driver races, or you could make life for newcomers that much easier.

Have they done anything to single player? I know, many loath rubber banding. But where's the sense once you had your car set up, to be able to thrash the AI competition? Again, the excuse for not addressing it seems to be the leaderboards. You can still try to finish the race faster than anybody out there. To me, that's incredibly dull being the sole car in front of the pack, only struggling to get all the corners right.

I want to race, overtake, take a tactical approach, have crazy bumper to bumper stuff.

Have they done anything to cure that? Not as far as I know. A fixed difficulty is still 1990s.

So why won't I come back to the Forza franchise? Because graphics and better gameplay - like the introduction of a clutch and a Fanatec wheel to replace that awful MS wheel - are simply not enough in my book. It would be nice to race Suercars, but this doesn't appeal to many because it's always more "fun" to do the same with a VW Golf on steroids, because that car would be far easier to drive and quicker at it.

So why doesn't Forza appeal anymore to me? Because it would probably reward spending time tuning and painting more than actual racing. And by racing I mean racing against equals and not destroying noobs just to get the first price money. I can't spend the amount of time needed to balance the game (via tuning) to get the racing experience out of it the I want anymore.

People seem so incredibly content with leaderboards, fiddeling with sliders, bolting bits and pieces to their cars, painting them. But that has done little for making racing a better experience.

There are so many manufacturer based racing series around the globe, yet the only tight series was GT series in Forza. That was brilliant, yet a bit repetitive after a while.

So is GT5 going to be better? I don't know. But the visual presentation is far more down to my taste. I spent so much time in bumper cam, yet helmet cam has been done very good twice already in other franchises. I really don't want to settle for what Forza3 has to offer in that respect, because it would be a huge step backwards for my gaming experience.

 

[aspect8]

Tenacious and I agreeing? Quick, someone get a camera, this is a historic day!
So what little cars are you buzzing around in Tenacious? I'm struggling in my F class Celica Supra because Rossi is quite fast in his Trueno!

 

[Bogie 19th]

It's in the form of a logger, similar but not quite as in depth as a race teams logger which you can check after the race.

It's doesn't bring up real time display showing suspension travel etc like forza.

Cool. Thanks Jay. Not sure I would bother with a log. I enjoy the real time, but that is probably because that is what I am used to. Not to say a logger would be bad, just never used it.

Ya know, I'm gonna have to side with aspect to an extent. Playing the game for a few hours has opened my eyes. It's pretty different from the demo. Then again, I'm in the 200hp range I really enjoy. When I go to higher performance cars, they may feel rambunctious and contrary without some mods to let me tame them to my liking.

I do appreciate my PC sims, but they do seem very dry and plain, and... surprisingly boring compared to Prologue and FW3 - having fun with T10's logo, if you don't catch that, it's definitely a "w". Anyway, Forza 3 the game, not the demo, feels like it's square in the middle of Live For Speed, GTR, Toca and Prologue. Well, and Forza 2, it's definitely a Forza game, but the warts from Forza 2 do seem to have been ironed out, and it seems way more bug free. It does look like T10 finally did their homework and gave us a Forza that feels simmish the way Prologue does. And that livery editor is just awesome. The tire samples still make me cringe, though.

I am going to have to be blunt and honest here (as I always am..just more so now), but those are the LAST words I expected coming out of your mouth. Yes, you could be just saying that stuff to make you "appear" to be a non-biased racing fan, but this post and another post of yours in the past few hours makes me think otherwise. Glad you are enjoying the game Tenacious.

 

[TBR 427]

Putting me in the same basket as otago? Harsh. What I played of L4S and Evo was more than enough to form an opinion. Not an overwhelmingly positive one, and not the same as yours, but still an opinion. The fact that racing games such and GT, Forza and Shift sell so well while GTR and L4S remain relatively niche games suggests that I'm not alone in my preferences.

Yes, it is a bit harsh (and I mean no offense), but Otago has claimed to have done GT4 to 10% completion, and from what you've said about your experience with PC sims, I wouldn't put that much higher. Frankly, I wouldn't put it at double digits.

You've had a decidedly average first impression, and walked away, fair enough, and I agree the PC games can seem a little daunting.

But for that reason, and what they truly have to offer, I think you should try to get into them again with a bit more confidence.

*snip*

Well, what do you want?

A fair game, or a balanced game?


Because in something this expansive, they are mutually exclusive.

 

[Tenacious D]

Tenacious and I agreeing? Quick, someone get a camera, this is a historic day!

I am going to have to be blunt and honest here (as I always am..just more so now), but those are the LAST words I expected coming out of your mouth.

Well... hey, I've always said, I let the chips fall.

I don't know why the demo feels so much like Forza 2 and why Forza 3 feels significantly improved. I don't have any tunable racing parts on my car yet - that pig ugly Fiesta by the way. Now I do understand that subtle differences can amalgamate into something much bigger and blatant, but the game seems different enough that I'd wager the demo is late beta code.

Someone above complained that the tires have too much grip, and this is a Forza sin from FM1. But... ya know, I won't complain. It's way too much fun to be able to throw your car around a turn way too fast. I'm sure this is going to spoil me when I get my hands on Prologue again, and undoubtedly GT5, but I'll adjust pretty quickly.

Meanwhile, I have to get back to it in my little time remaining tonight. Fortunately, I have a huge vacation coming up soon, so I'll be able to farm some money and start making some race cars out of these street machines.

 

[aspect8]

I don't have any tunable racing parts on my car yet - that pig ugly Fiesta by the way.

There we go, back to total disagreement with me!

Have fun Tenacious. Upgrading has become much more costly now, at least it seems that way to me. Also, with the smaller class spreads finding a good combination for PI is much harder. Lots of racing parts add or remove weight and change weight distribution. Many of them make the PI climb quite substantially. You can no longer just slap all the racing gearbox upgrades on, then choose between weight or power to raise your PI.

 

[Aarodynamics]

I bought it and regret it. I think its a huge failure compared to GT5p in many respects but mostly because of the fish-eye lens look that you get regardless of view. The physics are horrible for a simulator and the tracks don't seem quite right. The cars are also missing tons of tiny details. I absolutely can't stand that the cockpit view of the E46 M3 has the steering wheel covering up the guages and the E92 M3 ALMS car doesn't even have a working dash 👎

 

[barryl85]

I bought it and regret it. I think its a huge failure compared to GT5p in many respects but mostly because of the fish-eye lens look that you get regardless of view. The physics are horrible for a simulator and the tracks don't seem quite right. The cars are also missing tons of tiny details. I absolutely can't stand that the cockpit view of the E46 M3 has the steering wheel covering up the guages and the E92 M3 ALMS car doesn't even have a working dash 👎

Yeah because GT5P you can upgrade your cars, have full damage model, have more tracks and more cars, and an auction house, storefront, full paint editor, livery editor.......... the list goes on

FM3 is awesome and i also have GT5P and love it but its a demo not a game. No comparison

 

[sejtur]

Well, I've been playing FM3 for a few days now and I can tell you one thing. DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE! I found a LOT of problems with the game. But as the days and weeks go by, all will be revealed. T10 are going to need a bloody big patch to fix all the problems. But if FM2 is anything to go by, they won't bother. I still remember cars with big car model errors and glitches in FM2 that were never fixed.

What problems?

Yeah because GT5P you can upgrade your cars, have full damage model, have more tracks and more cars, and an auction house, storefront, full paint editor, livery editor.......... the list goes on

FM3 is awesome and i also have GT5P and love it but its a demo not a game. No comparison

Like Yamauchi said: Features don't neccesarily make a game. NFS is the living proof.

.... maybe FM3 too?

 

[Bogie 19th]

mostly because of the fish-eye lens look that you get regardless of view.

I imagine you have a setting wrong (did something in the multiscreen setup) or your TV is hosed. No fish eye appearance that I have ever seen.

 

[Joey D]

I bought it and regret it. I think its a huge failure compared to GT5p in many respects but mostly because of the fish-eye lens look that you get regardless of view. The physics are horrible for a simulator and the tracks don't seem quite right. The cars are also missing tons of tiny details. I absolutely can't stand that the cockpit view of the E46 M3 has the steering wheel covering up the guages and the E92 M3 ALMS car doesn't even have a working dash 👎

You are certainly in the minority judging by other members reactions to the game and the reviews. The physics are excellent too, sure they aren't perfect but really what game is?

 

[pay2021]

I bought it and regret it. I think its a huge failure compared to GT5p in many respects but mostly because of the fish-eye lens look that you get regardless of view. The physics are horrible for a simulator and the tracks don't seem quite right. The cars are also missing tons of tiny details. I absolutely can't stand that the cockpit view of the E46 M3 has the steering wheel covering up the guages and the E92 M3 ALMS car doesn't even have a working dash 👎

Ok, i respect your opinion, but for me, is so biased, FM3 dont have fish-eye lens, contrary, seems to be a tele lens!

The tracks are very fine, c'mon!!

And the tiny details... ok, i think its time the let the graphics comparision because no one compete with GT5P, its time to view the entire picture, and FM3 its a great game, i realy dont understand why you dont enjoy it if you realy like the racing games.

Sorry my english.

 

[barryl85]

What problems?



Like Yamauchi said: Features don't neccesarily make a game. NFS is the living proof.

.... maybe FM3 too?

Yeah because Forza has SUPER-NOS like NFS which might i add has never been a Sim Racer !! Im sure the whole Forza community would appreciate you comparing Forza with NFS.

There is not one feature in Forza that ruins the experience, theres nothing over the top.

You are so biased - Forza is not as bad as your saying - infact its awesome. Your too wrapped up in GT to like it so i wouldnt even have bothered trying it.

I have an open mind about both games - and im not picking one over the other till i've played them - you compared a DEMO to FULL GAME which is rediculous. The most rediculous part about it - is the fact your saying the DEMO is better.