Forza3 can't be compared with GT5....

[ItsHim]

Not to mention God of War was heavily influenced by Devil May Cry, so perhaps the standard you're looking for are games that are influenced by other games?

If it were one thing: the livery editor. Show me another game that has such a detail rich livery editor.

Love DMC too and can't wait for Bayonetta. Thing is I really wouldn't have thought GoW could be done on PS2 hardware. The preview shots were a bit larger than life, but the game absolutely delivered. Unbelievable!

But back to Forza 3:

Yes, the livery editor was and is quite a thing. Online play and interaction was great and the AH an interesting addition. XBL isn't half as bad as they say.

However, Che and Dan claimed and still claim that Forza3 is ground breaking. That it's simply the best racing sim on a console and they had set standards for the whole industry.

How come?

Graphics? Nope. Car modelling? Nice, but the interior isn't properly modelled. Sound? Maybe. Sounds really good, if it also reflects the tuning parts. On board cam? Had that, seen it all. Not only looks dull, but actually doesn't work in a serious race because POV is too narrow. Tuning? Was glitched and broken, so they better fix it. Matchmaking? They changed it and only time will tell if it's an improvement.

One of the biggest obstacles was when you raced in a random lobby and were to be taken out either deliberately but an ass or by accident - it was game over. Did they add a safety car? Black flagging? A new rating for clean racers?

Have they done anything to pitstops?

What about telemetry? Is it any real use? Have they broken it down in sectors? Can you compare the telemetry data of Setup A vs Setup B? Could you actually export the data as a pic? Tracking of G-Forces?

They've got tyre deformation, but I just wonder if it's the same in the full game as in the demo. Because in the latter it's looks just weird - like a wobby flobbly thingly bit attached to the tyre.

So, if I'm saying: thanks, but better graphics are simply not enough (because standards have risen quite a bit anyway), I couldn't care less for the car or track count, because that's always down to taste (is the car/track included that I want?), what's left?

Physics? That's nothing more than a magic word. Noone can tell if the engine is sound enough not to be glitched anywhere near in the future. It'll take a close look at the formulas they use and in fact the whole model, by a person who could really make sense of it, to judge. That won't happen. All we get are personal opinions, and two middle aged blokes who rely heavily on cleavage to make their point.

 

[Terronium-12]

I said village. GT5P have so flat textures and lack of details that you even don't have proper sense of speed, and here one village has more polygons than any GT5P track, not to mention much better textures and lighting.

Fujimi Kaido's trees are better in technology than GT5 trees, but don't look anything like real trees. Rocks are better than 2D GT5P backgrounds, but don't look anything like real rocks. There is a lot of technology in Forza 3 but most of it wasted by completely unrealistic art design

Alright. Originally, I didn't sign up here to exploit myself as a computer geek, which is why I avoid the aforementioned sub forums, but, for you...enlighten me.

How in the hell are Fujimi's trees better in technology than GT5's trees?

You have a habit of not making any sense whatsoever, so please, enlighten me.

 

[Lain]

I said village. GT5P have so flat textures and lack of details that you even don't have proper sense of speed, and here one village has more polygons than any GT5P track, not to mention much better textures and lighting.

Fujimi Kaido's trees are better in technology than GT5 trees, but don't look anything like real trees. Rocks are better than 2D GT5P backgrounds, but don't look anything like real rocks. There is a lot of technology in Forza 3 but most of it wasted by completely unrealistic art design

Textures, by definition, are flat. The roads aren't bump mapped, but I personally think bump mapping tracks isn't as visually appealing or necessary as, say, bump mapping a tile floor or brick wall.

One village has more polys than an entire GT5P track? Highly unlikely. Overall though, Forza 3's environments probably do have more polys. Better textures? Yeah. Lighting? No. That's Forza 3's weak spot... which you acknowledge in the second part of your post?

The lighting is what makes Forza looks more stylized than photo-realistic...

 

[otago]

Example, please?

Example of what?

GT5P trees on Suzuka are just two 90 degrees crossed cartoons. Eiger mountains are parallaxed 2D backgrounds. What examples do you need?

 

[aspect8]

Name only one really innovative thing about Forza3 compared to Forza2. Not the graphics, not the count in tracks nor cars. Only one, that was executed to the highest standards and a real novelty for the genre. Name only one area where they have gone beyond what was thought possible.

UGC and the Storefront. I'm struggling to think of another console game that even comes close to Forza in handling of user content, let alone another racing game. The storefront is unmatched. The amount of customisation included for online racing is pretty insane too.

 

[ItsHim]

Comparing Forza 2 to Forza 3 in terms of innovation? Well in Forza 3 you get better graphics, better physics, a more diverse car selection, better tuning, shop fronts, rollover, tire deformation and cockpit view just to name some things off the top of my head.

The cockpit view, sorry to say, doesn't set any standards whatsoever. It's not the nicest to look at nor an improvement for gameplay because judging from the demo, you don't always get a clear view of the mirrors (most important) nor the gauges (very important, too).

Shop front - well, yes. You had the AH in Forza2, but I think T10 couldn't foresee how much effort some put in selling the cars and the numbers they sold in. So, ok, shop front, can't really deny that.

Tyre deformation, as I already mentioned, looks very, very strange in the replays. Does it serve a purpose? Can you really capitalise on the information for your setups? If not, then I could name a game which also has tyre deformation, but those look really so convincing that you have to look twice to really appreciate them.

Is it really enough to set new standards? Again, I can't help that they think a lot of "stuff" is enough. Trouble is, they've done everything I can think of already in Forza2.

But thanks for your reply.

 

[ItsHim]

UGC and the Storefront. I'm struggling to think of another console game that even comes close to Forza in handling of user content, let alone another racing game. The storefront is unmatched. The amount of customisation included for online racing is pretty insane too.

I fully agree, that's what made me buy Forza2 in the first place and kept me playing it a long time online.

Trouble is, Dan and Che both claimed at one point or the other that Forza3 is both groundbraking and set the new benchmark for the racing genre.

In terms of user generated content, they already set it with Forza2 and I do see the store front making this content available to an even broader audience. But they have already done that in 2007 with Forza 2.

ATM custom setups for online races is broken, but should be fixed within days. Again, in what way has Forza3 really gone beyond what was in Forza2?

Don't get me wrong, I loved the game to pieces. But I get increasingly irritated by the notion, that all of a sudden all the stuff that was already in Forza 2 is all new and shiny and exciting. It may be still exciting, no doubt.

But T10 set their own benchmark, and thus I'm wondering questioning whether they matched it.

 

[Joey D]

Is it really enough to set new standards? Again, I can't help that they think a lot of "stuff" is enough. Trouble is, they've done everything I can think of already in Forza2.

None of this might set the standard in the genre but all of it is innovation from Forza 2 to Forza 3, which is what your statement was saying.

Name only one really innovative thing about Forza3 compared to Forza2.

I wasn't comparing Forza to anything else but previous versions of itself.

 

[ItsHim]

None of this might set the standard in the genre but all of it is innovation from Forza 2 to Forza 3, which is what your statement was saying.

"So, props to Kazunori Yamauchi-san and the PS1 team," said Greenwalt. "That said," he continued, "I feel that he's passed us the baton. Perhaps he hasn't meant to, but we have taken the genre to new levels and they've stopped evolving the genre. So again, tremendous respect to him, but I'd say the differentiator is they're old school."

http://www.joystiq.com/2009/06/05/turn-10-on-forza-3-no-game-competes-with-us/

So where's the novelty in Forza3 then?

I agree on store fronts. On second thoughts: where the AH in FM2 was an experiment, the store front is now an established feature. Good, unique point.

Thing is, if I take Dan by his word, has he done anything to further "evolve the genre" with FM3?

Fancier graphics, well, obviously. Not worth mentioning and pardon me saying, the graphics weren't really a strong point of FM2 anyways.

Improving the tuning - well hopefully. Doing a high 2:08 on Suzuka with a B class 330 bhp Saab and thus beating a F40 hands down... well, I don't know. Was fun playing, but didn't really feel right.

The point I'm trying to make is, that Forza3 isn't all that different from Forza2. Which isn't a bad thing at all.

But I can't help to feel the need to judge Dan by his own words: just what you think you have done in Forza3 that wasn't already done in FM2? What's your addition to the racing game genre, that was unseen before?

 

[Joey D]

Perhaps I'm not being clear enough here. You asked for innovation from Forza 2 to Forza 3, correct? I gave you several examples of things that have either been improved upon or added to the series, thus innovations from Forza 2 to Forza 3. I'm not looking at the genre, I'm looking at how Forza has improved upon itself.

Forza 3 is a huge step ahead of Forza 2 for all the reasons I listed, you get more of a game with some major new improvements, mainly the driving physics, collision physics and cockpit view.

 

[aspect8]

Is it really enough to set new standards? Again, I can't help that they think a lot of "stuff" is enough. Trouble is, they've done everything I can think of already in Forza2.

You've said there isn't anything new or innovative in Forza 3. What would you have wanted them to add? I agree there are other areas I would like to see improved. As a racing fan, I would like to see more racing features implemented, such as qualifying and a LPI (laps per incident) rating. Also, some automated monthly tournaments would be good. However, I know I'm in the minority of the player base, and other people want other things. Some people want more customisation, some want better graphics, etc etc. I think the store front was a good choice to focus on, it takes one of Forza's traditional strengths and builds upon it hugely. It's the sort of thing that won't go out of date for the next game, once the structure is there they can reuse it later.

Trouble is, Dan and Che both claimed at one point or the other that Forza3 is both groundbraking and set the new benchmark for the racing genre.

I just think it's awesome that dissatisfaction with Turn 10 marketing has crept back into this thread. If there's one thing about Forza that we haven't discussed enough, it's Turn 10's marketing. I know it gets me going! I can't possibly enjoy a single race of this game because Turn 10 said stuff about it I don't agree with!

/Sarcasm

 

[niky]

I said village. GT5P have so flat textures and lack of details that you even don't have proper sense of speed, and here one village has more polygons than any GT5P track, not to mention much better textures and lighting.

Fujimi Kaido's trees are better in technology than GT5 trees, but don't look anything like real trees. Rocks are better than 2D GT5P backgrounds, but don't look anything like real rocks. There is a lot of technology in Forza 3 but most of it wasted by completely unrealistic art design

So... they're better, but they're not realistic? And a point is now not a point?

 

[Tenacious D]

If it were one (truly innovative) thing: the livery editor. Show me another game that has such a detail rich livery editor.

You're coming dangerously close to my whole gig on Forza: making race cars is what's cool about it.

I was going to wait on the full game to say this, but I've experienced the demo, and according to all, that's good enough. I hear things like this:

The physics are much improved over FM2

And I wonder where it comes from. Okay, cars understeer some now, but I'm not feeling anything really tangibly different in the way these cars drive. Maybe they're giddy over in-car view now. It's not the braking, which locks up way too easily even with ABS. And I race in my socks to get a precise feel of the pedals. I'm not a fan of Forza physics either. It doesn't feel real to me, the way a PC sim or even GT4 does. If you like Forza, you'll undoubtedly love 3's handling, but it's more of an acquired taste.

The graphics are cool, but average now. I mean really. Not only doesn't it look better than most games out now, after playing Forza 2 to shoot up some cars, I'd say FM2 looks better. But it's average too. When I got it, it didn't take my breath away, the way the PS3 games released over the last two years have. Certainly not Prologue. Prologue looks pretty darn real. Forza 2 and 3 look artistic. To be sure, average and adequate graphics are still outstanding, but if you catch my drift, they don't stand out.

So if the physics and graphics aren't definitive, what's left?

Painting and selling cars, and racing these creations online.

Hey, that's enough for me to want to get it and keep my 360. But if GT5 has a livery editor half as good as Forza 3's? I won't have to go birthday shopping for my bro.

 

[Eric.]

Love DMC too and can't wait for Bayonetta. Thing is I really wouldn't have thought GoW could be done on PS2 hardware. The preview shots were a bit larger than life, but the game absolutely delivered. Unbelievable!

But back to Forza 3:

Yes, the livery editor was and is quite a thing. Online play and interaction was great and the AH an interesting addition. XBL isn't half as bad as they say.

Neither of these things are known to be in GT5.

However, Che and Dan claimed and still claim that Forza3 is ground breaking. That it's simply the best racing sim on a console and they had set standards for the whole industry.

Who cares what the producers are saying - believe the reviewers and those with the game. And those reviews agree with that last statement it seems.

How come?

Graphics? Nope. Car modelling? Nice, but the interior isn't properly modelled. Sound? Maybe. Sounds really good, if it also reflects the tuning parts. On board cam? Had that, seen it all. Not only looks dull, but actually doesn't work in a serious race because POV is too narrow. Tuning? Was glitched and broken, so they better fix it. Matchmaking? They changed it and only time will tell if it's an improvement.

I'm not hearing anything about the tuning being broken by the known and respected members here with the game.

One of the biggest obstacles was when you raced in a random lobby and were to be taken out either deliberately but an ass or by accident - it was game over. Did they add a safety car? Black flagging? A new rating for clean racers?

So, GT5 has a safety car online, flags, and a rating for clean racers? If neither has it, how is it a disadvantage for one game?

Have they done anything to pitstops?

Has PD?

What about telemetry? Is it any real use? Have they broken it down in sectors? Can you compare the telemetry data of Setup A vs Setup B? Could you actually export the data as a pic? Tracking of G-Forces?

Does GT even have telemetry yet? Forza has had it for three games now.

They've got tyre deformation, but I just wonder if it's the same in the full game as in the demo. Because in the latter it's looks just weird - like a wobby flobbly thingly bit attached to the tyre.

So, if I'm saying: thanks, but better graphics are simply not enough (because standards have risen quite a bit anyway), I couldn't care less for the car or track count, because that's always down to taste (is the car/track included that I want?), what's left?

Which game are we talking about here? That seems to be all that GT has added - better graphics and bigger car and track counts.

Physics? That's nothing more than a magic word. Noone can tell if the engine is sound enough not to be glitched anywhere near in the future. It'll take a close look at the formulas they use and in fact the whole model, by a person who could really make sense of it, to judge. That won't happen. All we get are personal opinions, and two middle aged blokes who rely heavily on cleavage to make their point.

Responses in red.

 

[ItsHim]

Ok, I have to call it a day pretty soon, so:

aspect8:

Yes, I expected game play being enriched beyond Cat&Mouse, Drag and Drift. And an easy to use feature to deal with crash kiddies in a good and appropriate way. Nobody should be left out nonetheless, so booting... hm, well, ultima ratio. Matchmaking was a bit difficulty in FM2 - doesn't look like they have really improved it atm.

Eric:

You can't load different tunes in online play. This is going to be fixed. Officially confirmed by T10 staff over at fm.net

EDIT: You could get away too easily with nonsense settings in FM2. Setting the ARBs to 1/40 would give you totally independent suspension in the front and totally fixed suspension on the rear. Almost all FWD and AWD cars were set up this way on the LBs. Also, maximum rebound settings on the rear for RWD cars, along with terribly soft bump and/or spring settings were used. That's NOT how it should work.

livery editor: Was in FM2. I totally agree that this was a novelty in FM2, and in the genre. But nothing that was introduced in FM3

reviewers: Tricky, really tricky. Take video game journalists, they hardly every are racing genre specialists. A racer like Forza or GT is just another game - so it's judged by roughly the same criteria. Insidesimracing? Sorry to say, they can't convince me. I appreciate the effort they make, still. Does anyone of them do actual racing? PhD? Jeremy Clarkson? He's an old bloke with yellow teeth. And a successful show presenter because he doesn't do reviews like they are usually done. How much time you have to spend with games like GT or Forza? 30-50 hrs I'd say minimum. Do they have the time to do more than merely glimpse?

Safety car: would be a novelty, would maybe even improve gameplay for those who care. GT5 not having it doesn't alter the fact that it would possibly be an enrichment. So why not do it?

Pitstops: GT4 had endurance races, thus pitstop strategy along with choice of setup and compound and amount of fuel added a tactical approach to the race. T10 cut this feature almost completely.

Telemetry: If I'm serious about setting cars up properly, I need all the telemetry I can get. So as Forza is all about tuning, I'd rather say it would be useful, wouldn't it? Yes, GT4 had some very detailed telemetry data.

As for graphics, car and track count: why bother? Is 1000 cars better than 400? No. Yes. Maybe. My first racing game had 7. Graphics? They have to improve. It's in the nature of things, so why even mention it?

For this post alone I tried to discuss one single aspect: Has Forza evolved in a way that's beneficial to the whole genre and has Forza3 really pushed the limits of "what can be done".

I hope it to be entertaining, I hope there's a good deal of venting involved, I hope everybody can benefit from it and enjoys himself and maybe I can get a few new insights.

 

[otago]

So... they're better, but they're not realistic? And a point is now not a point?

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/6746/gt5p.png
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/7971/forza3.png

And Eiger/Camino replays are just not comparable. I usually don't watch Forza 3 Camino replays, doesn't look any good for me.

 

[aspect8]

It's not the braking, which locks up way too easily even with ABS. And I race in my socks to get a precise feel of the pedals. I'm not a fan of Forza physics either. It doesn't feel real to me, the way a PC sim or even GT4 does. If you like Forza, you'll undoubtedly love 3's handling, but it's more of an acquired taste.

I love the new braking in Forza. Prologue (spec 2, last version I played) and Forza 2 were far too lenient. You could overcook a corner, turn in, realise you'd messed it up, and just dig the brakes in more. Sure you'd run wide and slow, but nothing too nasty happened. In number 3 at the moment you realise you've gone in too hard, you've got to make a choice. You can stay straight, brake hard, recover, and hopefully stay on the track. Or you can throw it in anyway, hoping some light trail braking might let you keep 2 wheels on the track at the other end of the corner. I agree that the default pressure settings are too sensitive, meaning you only get effective use out of about half your trigger/pedal range. Adjusting brake pressure will help there though.

 

[Eric.]

Yes, GT4 had some very detailed telemetry data.

It..did? Can you refresh me here? I don't remember it having anything apart from the meters showing how much throttle/brake and steering, and your speed, tire wear.

 

[MustangSVT]

I just had to reply to this thread to share my opinion. If you want true innovation, the game you should be playing is called iRacing.com, not some half-sim wannabes on the consoles. As realistic as GT5 Prologue and Forza 3 and the full GT5 will be, they're really not THAT realistic. Try driving a Star Mazda open wheeler in iRacing that's realistic.

In terms of innovation, iRacing offers all of this:
- pit stops and practice sessions
- driver rating system with 2 attributes that forces people to race cleanly and fairly to "advance" through the game to faster cars
- laser scanned tracks
- accurate car interiors
- extremely accurate physics
- TrackIR support
- TripleHead support
- support for many steering wheels


All of that is great and all and uber realistic, but it also doesn't sell on the scale that Project Gotham, Need For Speed, Forza and Gran Turismo sell at.


The real question here is what other game exists out there that has what Forza 3 offers (and Forza 2 for that matter)? By that I mean what game offers a semi-realistic experience with reasonably good graphics, lots of popular car selection (BMW, Ferrari, Honda etc.), good online matchmaking system, advanced livery editor, online auction house. That's enough right there. I can't think of a single other game out right now that has all of that. The only ones I can think of that are anywhere in the ballpark are NFS Shift, GRID, and let's say Ferrari Challenge. NFS Shift's handling is way off in my opinion, as is the damage modelling and the car selection, not to mention it doesn't offer half the things that Forza has in terms of online play. GRID's handling is very much arcadey and floaty and that's enough for me. Ferrari Challenge's graphics were not that good, and the online part was not good either.

With the release of Forza 3, as far as I'm concerned, Gran Turismo is light years behind the competition. I'd be very impressed if Gran Turismo 5 offers half the things that Forza 3 offers as far as customisability and enjoyment. It's also a lot of the small things that Forza does right that GT does not (including GT5 Prologue). Such as entering a race and showing you which cars are "legal" for that race and giving you the option to choose them. In GT5P, I have to go back to the garage and select a car every time if I want to participate in a specific event.

 

[TBR 427]

MustangSVT, iRacing is not innovative. It's goal is absolute realism, innovation is not a part of that; only imitation. Games have previously managed to do each of those things before. Granted, not many do all of those better, but the point is it's not achieving anything exactly new...

The problem is F3 has managed to get away with only being compared to console games. Notably a prologue, NFS shift and...Grid. Managing to only marginally get ahead of those should be sounding off alarm bells somewhere.

The Auction House sucks the fat one compared to online distribution, such as say, the millions of sites where setups, liveries, mods, complete cars, whole racing series, etc are located, and can be downloaded for free.

Same with the livery editor. Great, you can use some vector shapes. Give anyone who knows what they're doing the choice between a scalable, stretchable and colourable triangle and the lasso tool in Photoshop, and it's triangle: 0, tool made for this kind of thing: 9001. That, and there's better support, it's more widely used, and it doesn't decide to suddenly go all over the place.

DLC...great. 40 cars, and everything. I'd rather 400 cars, ie every single LMP1, LMP2, LMP750, LMP900 car from the last decade. Oh, and they come with their own separate championships for each class and each year.

That works for...basically every PC sim game out there.


Going on, new game modes in F3 are supposed to get people excited?

Someone do me a favor, and list ALL the game modes in F3.

 

[Spec M]

.
Going on, new game modes in F3 are supposed to get people excited?

Someone do me a favor, and list ALL the game modes in F3.

Hold on let me guess.., They've added a drift session mode .

 

[Tenacious D]

Sometimes I need a slap upside the head.

Even as I fuss with PC sims when I'm in the mood, it takes someone like TBR to remind me of what they offer. rFactor has entire categories of user created content, lots of tracks, and you can skin any car you want with your PC art program of choice. Want a decal? Import one into Photoshop, and you have the real deal.

And by golly, if you want to do all that in Forza and go online, you gotta lease the net from M$. And if you want a good FFB wheel, forget Logitech, which has a compatible wheel for everyone but the Box.

If you want to insist that Gran Turismo has only been improving incrementally, you have to level the same charge at Forza. And GT hasn't officially been on a net capable Playstation yet. And if I want a good race, I don't fire up Forza. Even as good as my PC sims are, I go to GT4 or Prologue.

 

[WolfRacer543]

And if I want a good race, I don't fire up Forza. Even as good as my PC sims are, I go to GT4 or Prologue.

If you want to play online you can't beat PC sims though

MustangSVT, iRacing is not innovative. It's goal is absolute realism, innovation is not a part of that; only imitation. Games have previously managed to do each of those things before. Granted, not many do all of those better, but the point is it's not achieving anything exactly new...

I disagree. Maybe its the engineer in me, but IMO when you have the goal of absolute realism you have to be innovative to bring that goal to fruition. "Reality" has so many variables that to implement "reality" in any remotely realistic way, you have to create something innovative. You have to come upwith innovative ways of doing the physics, innovative ways of correctly modelling the cars so they are realistic, innovative ways of recreating tracks (like laser scanned tracks), innovative ways of making it accessible.

 

[niky]

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/6746/gt5p.png
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/7971/forza3.png

And Eiger/Camino replays are just not comparable. I usually don't watch Forza 3 Camino replays, doesn't look any good for me.

If they're not comparable, why show them?

We've already ascertained that GT5P trees are not as detailed... but what else does a comparison of two completely different tracks show us?

Except that Forza3's boxed-in mountain track has more detail than a GT5P track that's so open that you can sit at the top of the last turn and see 80% of the track through your windshield?

The only comparison shots that matters are comparison shots of both games with the same car on the same track in the same position... handpicking one track that's completely enclosed and one that shows actual track surface for up to a kilometer away is sneakily stacking odds in Forza's favor.

As is hand-picking features you want to highlight...

"Low-detailed roads compared to Forza"... The road in that Camino shot has more cracks, but the cracks visible on the Eiger road are actually finer and more detailed... the crack texture in the Forza shot looks oddly stretched to the right of the car.

"fake reflections?" -oh, I understand what it means, but that's not a strictly accurate description.

"high detail self-shadow?" So I suppose the shadows so evident on the rear bumper and trunk of the Evo in GT5P are fake, too?

I'm still open to the argument that Forza3's environs are possibly better modeled than GT5P's... it is, after all, a newer game... but you'll have to do much, much better than that to seal your case.

 

[Lain]

I'd argue that the supposedly "2D" backdrop of GT5P's Eiger track is in fact a low-poly 3D model with low-res textures.

...and it works pretty well, actually. The mountains in the background of Eiger are much much farther away from the driven track than the rocky mountains in the Forza track are.

Also I'd argue the same about the supposed 2D Forza backdrop. Probably a simple mesh to give it more of a realistic 3-dimensional look in motion, and not just some cylindrically-mapped texture around the whole track. I could be wrong though... I'm not an expert.

FYI the distinction between the "fake" GT5P reflections and the implied-to-be-"real" reflections of Forza 3 is just plain wrong. They both use reflection maps.

And I love how that comparison points out the self-shadowing in the Forza pic, yet fails to do so with the GT5p pic...

That said, the textures are undeniably higher-resolution in Forza 3. GT5p's are perfectly passable though.
And the 3D trees are gorgeous. But in motion, you're not exactly going to be studying the trees in either Forza or GT.

One last thing, I love how you point out the lack of shadows regarding GT5p's crowd models, yet fail to acknowledge the significance of the 3d crowd itself.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Pitstops: GT4 had endurance races, thus pitstop strategy along with choice of setup and compound and amount of fuel added a tactical approach to the race. T10 cut this feature almost completely.

News to us. How and when did this happen?

Yes, GT4 had some very detailed telemetry data.

It's my understanding that it didn't.

Has Forza evolved in a way that's beneficial to the whole genre and has Forza3 really pushed the limits of "what can be done".

Yes.

Sometimes I need a slap upside the head.

Oooh..let me! 👍

 

[TBR 427]

If you want to play online you can't beat PC sims though



I disagree. Maybe its the engineer in me, but IMO when you have the goal of absolute realism you have to be innovative to bring that goal to fruition. "Reality" has so many variables that to implement "reality" in any remotely realistic way, you have to create something innovative. You have to come upwith innovative ways of doing the physics, innovative ways of correctly modelling the cars so they are realistic, innovative ways of recreating tracks (like laser scanned tracks), innovative ways of making it accessible.

To me, that's evolution, not revolution.

While I'm not denying PD is powering through the technology at blistering pace (yet still haven't released anything...), the fact is; all they're doing is evolutionary.

From here on it, it's just a case of engine optimization, so you can cram more stuff in. they have a power limit (must run smoothly on a PS3), and they just have to sneakily code things so they can do more. More efficient LOD car so that the cars on the other end of Suzuka look no different, but the closer cars look better, and so on and so forth.

I suppose what they did with GTPSP and it's 1pixel shake could be considered innovative, but TBH shaking images for a motion blur effect isn't exactly new IRL or in a game, and they just decided to make it useful.

To do the physics, it's just cram as many of the most important variables in as you can, test to see how close it is (I think it's something ridiculous like 98% accurate), and then mess with the less important ones to cover the lack of pop rivet distortion modelling and the other billion tiny physics things in a real car.

backgrounds

The used to be giant cubes with a skybox texture, now I think they're locked-direction spheres that are attached to the player, with a texture applied to the inside. Some things may be on different layers, but ideally they're just located and flattened into the skybox (especially the far-off mountains in Eiger).

For any other debate, Monza Red Ferrari 430 around London.

Graphically, no other game comes close. Not Crysis. Not Forza. Nothing.

OK, maybe Crysis.

But seriously; these:
http://www.latinogamers.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/corvette_60_001_png_jpgcopy.jpg
http://www.latinogamers.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/corvette_z06__c6___06_004_png_jpgcopy.jpg


They're so awesome, I don't even need to finish this senten

 

[Bogie 19th]

I just wish the game looked that good.

 

[TBR 427]

I just wish the game looked that good.

It would appear to be in-game assets, with in-game lighting (look for the exact same shadows on that building to the right in the corvette pic), and the reflections seem to have the same issues as the game itself.

Of course, it is at a rediculously high res.

But seriously, if you're still arguing about graphics after roaring through London in a deep red 430, then there's no hope.

 

[Bogie 19th]

But seriously, if you're still arguing about graphics after roaring through London in a deep red 430, then there's no hope.

Indeed. I agree 100%.