Freedom of speech. Does it exist any longer?

  • Thread starter Carbonox
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Nope and neither do Muslims...

I suggest you actually, you know, get to know some Muslims instead of just deciding to hate them based on what the media says.

I know quite a few Muslims, none have tried to suicide bomb me yet( they have given me a few pounds of fat though from shoving food in my face:lol:).

The important distinction to make here is Extremists vs. Fundamentalists vs Devout Muslims vs ETC, ETC, ETC
 
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I guess you should be happy I'm not this guy... :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwzvYZSQjvU

Believe it or not, he didn't get any fines for that. (while the guy mentioned in the opening post did, for way less "racist" comments)

Personally having done a little digging all these two have done is demonstrate a stunning level of ignorance publicly. Do I agree with either of them or personally support the nonsense they have spouted? Nope not all, but they can carry on with it as much as they like, all they do is demonstrate just how foolish them look.

BTW Carbonox, in your opening statement you say "The fact is that according to the law of Finland, Mohammed was a pedophile just as much as those who have had sex with children in the recent days.". I have a few questions for you in regard to this.

  1. Is that the current law of Finland or the law of 620AD (the rough date you claim the offense occurred)?
  2. What was Finland's legal age of consent at the time the offence occurred?
  3. If its the law at the time exactly what crime did he commit (based on 7th Century Finish Law)?
  4. If its current law do you intend to level the same charge at a large amount of the Finnish male population from before the start of the 20th Century?
  5. What percentage of the Finnish population believes its legal reach extends to the Gulf states and has a statute of limitation that covers over a millennia?
  6. Given the above what other global crimes stretching back over the course of 1,200 years does you suggest the Finnish legal system also go after?

Or here's a guess, this 'individual' was attempting to stir base opinion against a specific social group using a rather weak logical process, good job no one here is foolish enough to fall for that.


The important distinction to make here is Extremists vs. Fundamentalists.
So would that be the only two groups you break Muslims down into?
 
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BTW Carbonox, in your opening statement you say "The fact is that according to the law of Finland, Mohammed was a pedophile just as much as those who have had sex with children in the recent days.". I have a few questions for you in regard to this.

[*]Is that the current law of Finland or the law of 620AD (the rough date you claim the offense occurred)?

Current.

[*]What was Finland's legal age of consent at the time the offence occurred?

Dunno.

[*]If its the law at the time exactly what crime did he commit (based on 7th Century Finish Law)?

See above.

[*]If its current law do you intend to level the same charge at a large amount of the Finnish male population from before the start of the 20th Century?

That's not the point. The current law classifies Muhammed as a pedophile, he obviously can't be charged for it any longer. However, according to the modern classification, he was a pedophile though it was accepted back then.

[*]What percentage of the Finnish population believes its legal reach extends to the Gulf states and has a statute of limitation that covers over a millennia?

Haven't run into a poll like that. Can't say, though most of our politicians would probably prefer us to be ruled by foreigners instead.

[*]Given the above what other global crimes stretching back over the course of 1,200 years does you suggest the Finnish legal system also go after?

See question 4.

I hate quoting messages this way, if I messed it up, can't help.

Anyway, the whole point is that some Fundamentalists (does that get a capital F BTW?) are still following the Quran to the letter, and if everything Muhammed did was exemplary, it'd mean pedophilia would still be perfectly accepted in Muslim society.

Ack, my arguments are really getting weak and repetitive. Should call it a day.
 
BTW Carbonox, in your opening statement you say "The fact is that according to the law of Finland, Mohammed was a pedophile just as much as those who have had sex with children in the recent days.". I have a few questions for you in regard to this.

  1. Is that the current law of Finland or the law of 620AD (the rough date you claim the offense occurred)?
  2. What was Finland's legal age of consent at the time the offence occurred?
  3. If its the law at the time exactly what crime did he commit (based on 7th Century Finish Law)?
  4. If its current law do you intend to level the same charge at a large amount of the Finnish male population from before the start of the 20th Century?
  5. What percentage of the Finnish population believes its legal reach extends to the Gulf states and has a statute of limitation that covers over a millennia?
  6. Given the above what other global crimes stretching back over the course of 1,200 years does you suggest the Finnish legal system also go after?

Or here's a guess, this 'individual' was attempting to stir base opinion against a specific social group using a rather weak logical process, good job no one here is foolish enough to fall for that.

Ok, this is fun. Let me try.

Scaff:

  • Do you think that current law is the only reason not to have sex with children?
  • If the pedophellia laws were taken off the books, would you have sex with a 9-year-old?
  • Can 9-year-olds give consent?
  • Could 9-year-olds give consent back then?
  • Is the definition of rape sexual activity with lack of consent?
  • Is rape a human rights violation?
  • Do human rights change over time?

Yea, he was a rapist, as were tons of people back then.

Edit: It was customary for women to be bought and sold too... in the US it was customary for black people to be bought and sold. Slave owners (of both blacks and women) violated the rights of those people and are guilty of a horrific crime. When it occurred or what the law of the land was makes no difference.
 
OK - I will come back to this in a second, as you've just stated that pretty much every man in the world prior to the start of the 20th Century is a paedophile and that Finnish law should have a global reach and be able to pursue crimes with effectively no statue of limitations.

And they accuse the US of wanting to be the worlds police.



See above.
Finland did not have a legal age of consent until the start of the 20th century, at which point it was 12, later into the 20th century (in line with most of Western Europe) it was set at 16.

As a more extreme example, as late as 1880 the legal age of consent in most American states was 10, with one being as low as 7.

Given all of the above I do have to wonder why Jussi Halla-aho singled out Mohammed, when given his clear concern about this he actually needs to be targeting pretty much the majority male population of the global for the majority of history.


That's not the point. The current law classifies Muhammed as a pedophile, he obviously can't be charged for it any longer. However, according to the modern classification, he was a pedophile though it was accepted back then.
See above, so was the majority male population of the global for the majority of history. So I ask exactly why he singled out one person who is not even Finnish? Surely if the dangerous precedent historical paedophilia sets needs to be address then the male population of Finland prior to the 20th century would be a better focus, after all they make up around 50% of the Finnish population. Or are the less than 1.5% of the Finnish population that form 'other religions' (Islam is too small in Finland to even get separated out) that dangerous.


Haven't run into a poll like that.
Can't say, though most of our politicians would probably prefer us to be ruled by foreigners instead.
Really. So you have hard evidence that Finnish politicians would be quite happy to hand over control to a foreign power?

Then explain why it hasn't happened? Or is this just more regurgitated nonsense that you haven't bothered to either think about or question?

Sorry but even I know enough about Finnish history to know that is utter rubbish. Your patently naive and ignorant comments are quite frankly an insult to the country you live in.



Anyway, the whole point is that some Fundamentalists (does that get a capital F BTW?) are still following the Quran to the letter, and if everything Muhammed did was exemplary, it'd mean pedophilia would still be perfectly accepted in Muslim society.
Can you tell me exactly how many of them exist globally and also in Finland (oh and the UK - I better watch out for them)?

Plenty of Christians believe that the Bible is the exact word of God and infallible, yet it clearly states that certain acts demand animal sacrifices (such as eating prawns or wearing wool and linen at the same time), also that if a women doesn't scream loud enough when being raped she should be stoned to death. I can draw you a pretty big list of 'horror's' from a book that many, many Christian's have total faith is the exact word of God.

However I fairly willing to guess that you don't level the same critique at them and have to wonder why?

You see for me its quite simple, every social, religious and racial group will have its fringe elements who will distort and interpret whatever the hell they want to justify an end they want. They do not however represent the whole of that social/religious/racial group and as such should not (as is being done here) be used as a weapon against them. To do so is quite frankly the poorest level of reasoning you can stoop to, and to blindly accept it without question is both foolish and dangerous.

Your near relations fought a war on two sides to stop this kind of thinking from taking over Finland, yet you seem to be embracing it with open arms.


Ack, my arguments are really getting weak and repetitive. Should call it a day.
Your arguments are weak for a reason, they don't stand up to analysis. Unfortunately the rhetoric of the radical rarely does, and this is perhaps the most frighting thing here, you are using terms that are almost as fringe as the people you are saying we should guard against and you don't seem to be aware of it.



Ok, this is fun. Let me try.

Scaff:

  • Do you think that current law is the only reason not to have sex with children?
  • If the pedophellia laws were taken off the books, would you have sex with a 9-year-old?
  • Can 9-year-olds give consent?
  • Could 9-year-olds give consent back then?
  • Is the definition of rape sexual activity with lack of consent?
  • Is rape a human rights violation?
  • Do human rights change over time?

Yea, he was a rapist, as were tons of people back then.

Edit: It was customary for women to be bought and sold too... in the US it was customary for black people to be bought and sold. Slave owners (of both blacks and women) violated the rights of those people and are guilty of a horrific crime. When it occurred or what the law of the land was makes no difference.

Oh I don't disagree with your points at all, and I think you know the answers I would give to them.

The question I am asking is why one specific person is being targeted in this regard and why the same critique is not being applied globally?

I'm questioning the use of the statement not the validity or accuracy of it.
 
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Beliefs cannot be legislated. If enough people voluntarily convert to one belief system over another, then society revolutionizes as it has done before and will do again. Muslims, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and other Christian sects are always actively proselytizing to convert one another, and the unbeliever down the street. It's a Darwinian competition for adherents. Grow or die, innit? Are there more Sunni Muslim than any other sect on the globe? Would the globe be a more peaceful place if everybody were Sunni? Who knows, in a hundred years could it happen?

Respectfully submitted,
Steve
 
Really. So you have hard evidence that Finnish politicians would be quite happy to hand over control to a foreign power?

Then explain why it hasn't happened? Or is this just more regurgitated nonsense that you haven't bothered to either think about or question?

Sorry but even I know enough about Finnish history to know that is utter rubbish. Your patently naive and ignorant comments are quite frankly an insult to the country you live in.

Going to sleep just now, but only going to reply to this.

It was more of a sarcastic reply because our politicians (except for the True Finns party, which I personally support) are overly friendly for foreigners and aren't doing anything to give them duties in this country.

I could probably go to the street and say "Finns out of Finland!" and they would support it in the name of freedom of speech, but if I went out and said "Muslims out of Finland!" they would turn it down, give me a fine and probably send me in jail for racism. This is why our politics don't work.

Well, there's always also the EU which they don't want to get out of, and NATO which they want to join, but that's more of a personal view I guess.
 
Going to sleep just now, but only going to reply to this.

It was more of a sarcastic reply because our politicians (except for the True Finns party, which I personally support) are overly friendly for foreigners and aren't doing anything to give them duties in this country.
Forgive me if I don't get too enthusiastic about National Socialist parties, I've had my far share of issues with supporters from them.

I do however have to ask what is so bad about being friendly to foreigners, if you came to live in the UK I'm fairly certain you would want to be greeted in a friendly manner?

What duties do these foreigners need to do? If I moved to Finland what would you expect me to do and would it be different to any other Finn and if so why?

I'm also still a little confused about why an (ex I believe) member of this party would need to state that Mohammed is a paedophile and what the aim behind it was?

I could probably go to the street and say "Finns out of Finland!" and they would support it in the name of freedom of speech, but if I went out and said "Muslims out of Finland!" they would turn it down, give me a fine and probably send me in jail for racism. This is why our politics don't work.
Have you tried to know this and do you have any examples you could provide of both cases?


Well, there's always also the EU which they don't want to get out of, and NATO which they want to join, but that's more of a personal view I guess.
All of this does stretch the original topic, but its an interesting discussion none the less.
 
Oh I don't disagree with your points at all, and I think you know the answers I would give to them.

The question I am asking is why one specific person is being targeted in this regard and why the same critique is not being applied globally?

I'm questioning the use of the statement not the validity or accuracy of it.

Since you have no problem with the accuracy or validity of the statement, why worry about the motivation? It's true, and even if it weren't, he should be allowed to say it.
 
Since you have no problem with the accuracy or validity of the statement, why worry about the motivation?
Words are powerful things and I personally believe that questioning the motivations and intentions of people is a fundamental part of discussion and debate.

I can't demand an answer but I certainly do intent to ask the questions.


It's true, and even if it weren't, he should be allowed to say it.
At what point have I said otherwise?

Quite the opposite, I have repeatedly said that he has the right to say it, the exponent of limiting freedom of speech in this thread has been the OP himself, who has stated that he would be quite happy to limit the freedom of speech of select groups and is even happy to advocate the use of violence to do so.
 
So would that be the only two groups you break Muslims down into?

No. I was referencing the generalization of Islam which is so prevelent since 911. Sure, there are "devout" Muslim people but the discussion is about "what is freedom of speech" and "do we still have it" so I'll go back to my hole. It was meant to start people realizing that religions can't be generalized. Its not meant to be a list of the ONLY types of Muslim people in the world. Don't let it get under your skin. Here, I'll edit that for you...
 
The question I am asking is why one specific person is being targeted in this regard and why the same critique is not being applied globally?

Because this one person founded a religion which today has something in the neighborhood of a billion and a half adherents. Because this religion tells its adherents to emulate this person in word, thought, and deed. Since he did it, it's fine and dandy to pork nine year old girls. You can quibble about marrying them first, if you wish.
 
Because this one person founded a religion which today has something in the neighborhood of a billion and a half adherents. Because this religion tells its adherents to emulate this person in word, thought, and deed. Since he did it, it's fine and dandy to pork nine year old girls. You can quibble about marrying them first, if you wish.

I really do hope this is mostly just sarcasm with the choice of words you've picked and what you've boiled Islam down to.
 
Because this one person founded a religion which today has something in the neighborhood of a billion and a half adherents. Because this religion tells its adherents to emulate this person in word, thought, and deed. Since he did it, it's fine and dandy to pork nine year old girls. You can quibble about marrying them first, if you wish.

The word of a godhead who is the centre of a religion that is followed by even more people demands animal sacrifices and the stoning to death of rape victims.

He's infallible, so you can't dispute it at all as a follower and his word is law.

Funny thing is the vast majority of his followers totally ignore those points, guess what happens with Islam, oh that's right the exact same thing.

The vast, vast majority of followers of all religions take the constructive parts and use them well, the outdated and cruel they leave, and Judaism, Christianity and Islam all have a fair share of both within religious texts, not a major surprise as they have far more in common that they actually differ on. Yes the extreme fringe that exists across all three of these (and other) religions take every word and follow it, but they are far from representative of the majority. A concept that seems lost on you.
 
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I really do hope this is mostly just sarcasm with the choice of words you've picked and what you've boiled Islam down to.
Actually it was meant as an answer to the question Scaff had asked.

The word of a godhead who is the centre of a religion that is followed by even more people demands animal sacrifices and the stoning to death of rape victims.

He's infallible, so you can't dispute it at all as a follower and his word is law.
True as far as it goes, but utterly irrelevant.

Funny thing is the vast majority of his followers totally ignore those points, guess what happens with Islam, oh that's right the exact same thing.

Right again. Your point? That we can freely accept and discard what we like and don't like in a religion, and still claim to be adherents of that religion?

The vast, vast majority of followers of all religions take the constructive parts and use them well, the outdated and cruel they leave, and Judaism, Christianity and Islam all have a fair share of both within religious texts, not a major surprise as they have far more in common that they actually differ on. Yes the extreme fringe that exists across all three of these (and other) religions take every word and follow it, but they are far from representative of the majority. A concept that seems lost on you.

What seems to be lost on you is that I was simply answering your question. To wit, Danoff had posted this:
Ok, this is fun. Let me try.

Scaff:

  • Do you think that current law is the only reason not to have sex with children?
  • If the pedophellia laws were taken off the books, would you have sex with a 9-year-old?
  • Can 9-year-olds give consent?
  • Could 9-year-olds give consent back then?
  • Is the definition of rape sexual activity with lack of consent?
  • Is rape a human rights violation?
  • Do human rights change over time?

Yea, he was a rapist, as were tons of people back then.

You then asked why one person was being singled out, as I quoted in my previous post. I answered that the person singled out founded a major religion, something that nobody else from that era did (to my knowledge, at least).

Yes, all the other folks boinking nine years old girls at the time were pedophiles too.
 
Right again. Your point? That we can freely accept and discard what we like and don't like in a religion, and still claim to be adherents of that religion?

Would you prefer it if we were all like WBC then?
 
True as far as it goes, but utterly irrelevant.
Its a damn sight more relevant that the actions of Mohammed are to Finnish politics when Muslim men make up less that 0.75% of the population.

I done question the accuracy of the statement, but rather the purpose of its use, something I note you have avoided actually commenting on.

So I will ask it directly. What purpose do you think it was made to achieve in the political debate of a country of less that 1.5% Muslims, which by rough measure would give a male population of less than 0.75% Muslim males?

Please note that I'm not questioning the individuals right to say it, simply wanting to understand what people believe was the intended purpose of it. What is quite surprising is how unwilling other seem to be to discuss that point.
 
So I will ask it directly. What purpose do you think it was made to achieve in the political debate of a country of less that 1.5% Muslims, which by rough measure would give a male population of less than 0.75% Muslim males?

To demonstrate that a true statement about a particular religious figure is currently not protected speech.

That's enough reason to say it.
 
To demonstrate that a true statement about a particular religious figure is currently not protected speech.

That's enough reason to say it.

That could have been the reason, but given that he also claimed that all Somalis were thieves in the same blog post would suggest otherwise.

I suspect given the political motives of the person involved and his party that the intent was more aimed at making political capital from statements intended to link minority group's within the country to particular crimes.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/06/13/uk-finland-finns-idUKBRE85C0ST20120613
 
That could have been the reason, but given that he also claimed that all Somalis were thieves in the same blog post would suggest otherwise.

I suspect given the political motives of the person involved and his party that the intent was more aimed at making political capital from statements intended to link minority group's within the country to particular crimes.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/06/13/uk-finland-finns-idUKBRE85C0ST20120613

Just out of curiosity, have you heard why he wrote that about the Somalis?

"He also asked if it could be stated that robbing passersby and living on taxpayers' expense are cultural and possibly genetic characteristics of Somalis. This was stated in sarcastic response to a Finnish columnist that wrote that drinking excessively and fighting when drunk were cultural and possibly genetic characteristics of Finns."
 
Just out of curiosity, have you heard why he wrote that about the Somalis?

"He also asked if it could be stated that robbing passersby and living on taxpayers' expense are cultural and possibly genetic characteristics of Somalis. This was stated in sarcastic response to a Finnish columnist that wrote that drinking excessively and fighting when drunk were cultural and possibly genetic characteristics of Finns."

Do you happen to have a link to that article?

I only ask because the only article related to it that I could find does actually show that a genetic mutation found only in Finnish males does cause them to become violent when drunk:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...Genetic-mutation-Finnish-men-makes-fight.html
 
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http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.fi/2009/08/trial-of-jussi-halla-aho.html

One particularly important part to mention:

In order to prove that such arguments are highly offensive, I turned the newspaper Kaleva‘s sentence into parody where “Finns” were replaced by “Somalis”. My hypothesis was that Somalis are under the special protection of media and officials, and an argument that is permissible to present about Finns becomes impermissible when it is about Somalis.
 
http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.fi/2009/08/trial-of-jussi-halla-aho.html

One particularly important part to mention:

In order to prove that such arguments are highly offensive, I turned the newspaper Kaleva‘s sentence into parody where “Finns” were replaced by “Somalis”. My hypothesis was that Somalis are under the special protection of media and officials, and an argument that is permissible to present about Finns becomes impermissible when it is about Somalis.

A defence that was rejected you have to remember, its also a rather flawed analogy he makes, as the genetic mutation actually exists in one case and not the other.

I can I assume that we will not agree with regard to the reason why these comments were made, which while addressing free speech in part I still see as also having quite strong overtones of attacks on minority groups to gain political capital.


However this is getting away from the topic at hand, which is the subject of free speech and if I recall correctly your demand that one group has it while actively limiting it for another, which is directly at odds with the claim you make in your opening post.
 
That could have been the reason, but given that he also claimed that all Somalis were thieves in the same blog post would suggest otherwise.

I suspect given the political motives of the person involved and his party that the intent was more aimed at making political capital from statements intended to link minority group's within the country to particular crimes.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/06/13/uk-finland-finns-idUKBRE85C0ST20120613

Doesn't matter what the actual reason is, that's reason enough to let this person do their thing. That's what freedom of speech is about - letting people say offensive things for whatever reason they want to say them.
 
Doesn't matter what the actual reason is, that's reason enough to let this person do their thing. That's what freedom of speech is about - letting people say offensive things for whatever reason they want to say them.

Once again I have not even come close to saying that he doesn't have the right to say it at all, however its a perfectly valid side-discussion to try and understand why its been said.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you are coming across as if any discussion of why someone makes a comment is an attack on the right to say it, and that is categorically not what I am doing at all.

The two things are quite capable of existing in tandem, I can totally disagree with what I believe are his motives for saying it and discuss the reasons why he said it, while defending his right to say it.
 
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