Gay Marriage

[MadHypello]

Well, its goal was to demonstrate that defining laws such as a gay marriage ban according to a few sentences in the bible, is quite ludicrous.

Yes it is, but look at it this way.

It was said in the old testament that gay marriage is wrong. BUT it was also said that slavery is right. But those times were different, in the genesis God created a sea above the earth (sky).

But then came Jesus. He said that slavery is wrong. He also said, that being gay is wrong.

If there's someone who's more experienced with the Bible, please correct me.

 

[HondaKid86]

Funny, I always thought Finns were tolerant, peaceful, and accepting.

Looks like some of you guys have more in common with 51% of America than you thought.

 

[vladimir]

Thanks for the help.

I agree. It would be cool if I could live with gay people as I live with straight people. But I just can't.

And seeing a gay man/woman wouldn't make me sick. What makes me sick is touching and kissing and all that....

nobody forces you to kiss a guy and you have most likely met lots of gay people already, maybe at school, maybe on the street.

i can understand how you feel, but you are still young. i bet that you will eventually change your mind and in a few years you will think back and wonder how you could have said such.

try to see this from a gay's view and imagine how it must feel if everyone else would think just like you. how would you like it if everyone else would hate you for something you cannot control? those people feel real sickness if everyone is against them and they have to hide.

try to think about that. nobody wants you to like gay kissing/sex, but why should you hate those people? it would make things for them as well as you much easier, if you would tolerate them because you can neither change it nor avoid it. you will throughout your life meet lots of gay people and there is no reason for feeling sick about it. gay people are no different from you except for this one thing, you find them even in this forum because some of them like gran turismo and cars just like you.

 

[MadHypello]

I do tolerate gay people. When I see them, I don't react to them any special way. But deep in the inside I don't accept gay people. But that's quite deep. I would actually like to encourage gay people to step out of the closet.

This is hard to understand, even for me.

Funny, I always thought Finns were tolerant, peaceful, and accepting.

Looks like some of you guys have more in common with 51% of America than you thought.

That one made me laugh, even though I don't understand what does Bush have to do with me. Or what made you think that I am not tolerant, peaceful, and accepting.

 

[vladimir]

I do tolerate gay people. When I see them, I don't react to them any special way. But deep in the inside I don't accept gay people. But that's quite deep. I would actually like to encourage gay people to step out of the closet.

This is hard to understand, even for me.

now that already sounds a little bit different from your other posts.

but then i still do not understand what would change if your brother was gay!? he would still be the same person and i do not believe that you would not want to see him any more...

 

[HondaKid86]

But deep in the inside I don't accept gay people...

*snip*

Or what made you think that I am not... accepting.

Heh.

 

[milefile]

I have a hard time understanding this. Homosexuals and their advocates seem to simultaneously highlight and dismiss their sexuality. Sexuality is the core of the issue, but you claim it makes no difference in the same breath. It obviously does make all the difference.

You have a pride parade to define yourself as gay. Then you say "we're no different".

Which is it?

 

[vladimir]

you still not understand, although i have told you multiple times that nobody defines himself via a pride parade. the parade is there to remember what happened in new york (hence the name "christopher street day") and to demonstrate against discrimination. as long as there is discrimination (and money to be earned...), there will be the parades.

 

[milefile]

But what about all the other parades? There's more than one.

 

[vladimir]

But what about all the other parades? There's more than one.

sure. there is also more than one city on the map.

 

[milefile]

And what are the other parades for? What do they say?

 

[Pako]

Here is something interesting that summarized twins. It doesn't help my arument of "choice vs. genetics", but I still found it interesting:

A search on "identical twins DNA" led us into a fascinating world of genetics, cloning, and the old nature vs nurture debate.
As we soon learned, identical twins, formed when one fertilized egg splits, are the only people in the world with identical DNA. Fraternal twins, on the other hand, are formed when two different eggs are fertilized. Genetically speaking, fraternal twins are no closer than normal siblings, sharing only about 50% of their genes.

Although identical twins have the same genotype, or DNA, they have different phenotypes, meaning that the same DNA is expressed in different ways.

Traits determined by phenotype, such as fingerprints and physical appearance, are the result of "the interaction of the individual’s genes and the developmental environment in the uterus." Thus, a DNA test can't determine the difference between identical twins, while a simple fingerprint can.

[edited]
This leads me to believe that altough identical twins can have identical DNA, their characteristics and personal attributes could be different because of the different phenotypes. This does not prove that there is a "gay" gene, but it does raise the possible idea that it could be genetics as it relates to the phenotype and how the DNA reacts to it's environment in the uterus.

 

[vladimir]

And what are the other parades for? What do they say?

can ypu please explain to me of which parades you are speaking? there is only one in a year in my hometown.

 

[Carl.]

I think he speaks of any parade outside NY. But as you said I think the fight against discrimination, having a big party, and business opportunities are the main reason.

Still don't see what's wrong in there.

 

[milefile]

I think he speaks of any parade outside NY. But as you said I think the fight against discrimination, having a big party, and business opportunities are the main reason.

Still don't see what's wrong in there.

It could be argued that they engender new discrimination and make pre-existing discrimination worse. One piece of evidence could be the results of the last election. Maybe people are tired of having homosexuality in their face all the time.

 

[Carl.]

It could also be argued that they just never wanted to have homosexuality in their face in the first place, and wouldn't mind if it were still illegal. At least some people Some people I know wouldn't mind.

 

[vladimir]

It could be argued that they engender new discrimination and make pre-existing discrimination worse. One piece of evidence could be the results of the last election. Maybe people are tired of having homosexuality in their face all the time.

in this part of the world, although we have parades, too, is less discrimination and kinds of civil unions are a more and more common sight. and we even have the topic of homosexuality in school (without converting tons of heterosexuals into homosexuals), we have debates about gay rights very often, we have more and more openly gay politicians and stars, homosexuality is more and more a common sight and instead of being fed up and tired with it, heterosexuals in our part of the world are getting more and more openminded and even defend gay rights.
now where is the great difference that makes US citizens being tired by homosexuality and european not being tired by it?
(especially when with much more rights we have less reasons for parades/demonstrations and therefore europeans should be even more tired by it!)

 

[milefile]

Sex is personal. I don't want to have to think about a man screwing his woman and I don't want to have to think about a man screwing his man. The diference is the men who screw men just can't shut up about it. It is all in very bad taste. I think they bring a lot of their problems on themselves.

I don't like promiscuity on TV, be it straight or gay. But if I complain about the homosexual variety I suddenly hate homosexuals. It's absurd. They set themselves apart, not me. I really couldn't care less. I just don't want to have to think about it all the time. I think many people see it like that.

Marriage has, for all of history, been a heterosexual institution. Now a minority wants to change that. It seems that homosexuals are not fond of the democratic process. It seems they are not patient enough to be able to gradually persuade society to accept them they way they want to be accepted. They prefer to litigate their will.

Using the terminology "gay marriage" is inflamatory in itself. It's meant to be. It goes with their political tendency to be in-your-face and tasteless. There is obviously nothing wrong with affording homosexuals certain rights like rights of survivorship, next of kin, etc. But call it marriage and you will only piss off traditional people, and there's a lot of them. And they vote.

It's as much an issue of taste as it is an issue of rights. Homosexuals need to learn to persuade and not force.

 

[Carl.]

Well, don't you see something wrong in having laws dictated by taste? I personally wouldn't mind that much about a law forbidding mullets, but even if a majority would agree with me and vote a law against it, I still believe it would be wrong.

 

[milefile]

Well, don't you see something wrong in having laws dictated by taste? I personally wouldn't mind that much about a law forbidding mullets, but even if a majority would agree with me and vote a law against it, I still believe it would be wrong.

Like I said, they bring these things on themselves. If they had taken small steps and earned acceptance with common values they'd be a lot better off right now. Instead, all of a sudden they all have to get married and judges are making public spectacles out of it and everybody has to hear about it every day for months. They freaked everybody out and now they have the backlash. Whether the laws are right or not, I have no sympathy for them. They went about it all the wrong way. They created this setback for themselves. Societies change slowly, not just because a couple judges say so.

Incedentally, state referendums also do not change society.

 

[vladimir]

i have no clue what you are talking about...homosexuals are talking about whom they screwed all day in public? i hear much more about that from heterosexuals, not surprisingly because they are the majority, but there is no difference between how homosexuals deal with this and heterosexuals. and the three homosexuals i know best are all in relationships that last for years already, whereas i see heterosexuals exchanging their partner every month and brag about every relationship that holds on for more than a month. how much of these people do you even know?

the majority of the TV's audience is straight, the programmes are created for them to be succesful. the programmes are created by straight people for straight people. thes spread only clichés and prejudices.
and if there is this 1% of TV programmes for gay people, you don't have to watch it. homosexuals exist, they are part of society, you cannot extinguish them or wipe them off the landscape. there are TV programmes about everything, why not about homosexuality? nobody forces you to watch TV anyway, you are free to hide in some dark cave if you can't stand society, life, nature and its variety.

you say homosexuals are "in-your-face and tasteless"? homosexuals have been discriminated against, persecuted and murdered for hundreds of years and they still are widely discriminated against and in some parts of the world still persecuted and murdered every day. they have a damn right to be in-your-face and tasteless as they wish as long as this is done and as long as you do not stop it. those peple have suffered so much through the last 2000 years and now you complain about some of them being tasteless?
if it were an eye for an eye they would have the right to slaughter everyone who is still making them suffer, but instead they choose the way to parade and demonstrate peacefully for equal rights. it is written down in the first ammendment that people have the right to peacefully assemble themselves and these people have damn good reasons to do it. you are the very last person who has any right to complain about it.

and i don't know whats your problem with the name. homosexuals just want equal rights and marriage just happens to be the widely used term to describe such a union. the goddamn church can do what they wish and the name does not matter, it is equal rights that gays are looking for and to say that gay marriage will hurt the society, the moral values and marriage itself ist just ridiculous.

 

[Ten]

Thank you Vladimir, this is very well put. This coming from a homosexual. (there doesn't seem to be a single one in all the pages of this thread.)

I'm sorry for bringing up an old topic, but I made the mistake of clicking on this thread while performing a completely unrelated search. I felt only obligated to respond.

Vlad has touched many bases that I would have myself, so I will keep this as short as I can.

All that's left to be said, from my perspective, is that as a single induvidual, I am not the stereotypical homosexual. I appear quite hetero at first, or any glance. When people meet me, I don't greet them with, "Hey, I'm Al, and I'm gay." To do so would be pointless. People are too hung up on things like sexual preference and orientation. When you meet someone, do you say, "Hey, I'm Jim. I'm straight."?

I don't participate in, attend, or even watch gay pride parades or festivals. It's stupid. We ***** about not being accepted, but we want special attention. I'm content with just being another american citizen. Yes, I feel discriminated against. Yes, I'm pissed off about not being able to marry someone I love. But no, I donot feel the need to parade my faggoty ass all over Main Street holding up a sparkly flag and singing about my orientation.

I'm gay. Woohoo. Does the entire world have to know? Don't get me wrong, it's nothing I'm ashamed of, but it's also nothing I'm beaming with pride about. It's like saying you like Cheese Doodles over Pringles. Are you gonna march in a Cheese Doodle parade? Are you gonna fly flags in your yard with big orange cheese curls on them?

We're discriminated against and frowned upon by society. So what? Who isn't?

Give me my rights as a US citizen. Don't spew BS to me about being the "Land of the Free" if you can't live up to the title.

Also, don't talk about homosexiuality being unnatural. Two male dogs will have sex. Two male rats will have sex. Two male anything will have sex. Sex is primal. It is not something that your thought process governs solely. Who you have sex with is based on your sexual urges and desires, and these are all stemmed from your subconscious. Is the brain and it's functions not natural?

Too many people base their entire lives around the fear of not living up to the "teachings" of some book. Think for yourself, or don't. I don't care. But stop making your religion my problem. I'm not asking to be married in the eyes of God, I'm asking to be married legally. A church doesn't even have to be involved. Just issue me a liscence and you'll never have to see me again.

Again, I apologize for the ressurection of an old thread.

 

[Zrow]

snip

👍 👍 👍

Well said.

 

[Kent]

I have little opinion on this subject ...

That is to say, I don't really fall on either side of the issue.

However, I wonder.

Would "gay" people accept a "civil union" with the exact same entitlements as marriage only without the name "marriage"?

Like I said, it doesn't really matter to me.
Just wondered, that's all.

 

[Sage]

Well said.

Yup. 👍 It's easy for many people to dismiss our defense for homosexuals, but when they hear it from a homosexual him/herself, it's different.

BTW, HondaKid86 is also gay, and I think he's posted in this thread somewhere. He doesn't stop by too often though.

 

[Ten]

@Kent: To be completely honest, I personally don't care what it's called, so long as it gives me the same benefits/stipulations of a traditional marriage. I understand that the subject of marriage is a largely christian union. However, at the risk of sounding self-hating and stereotypical, you all know how uproarious the gay community can be about trivial things.

@everyone else: Thanks for understanding, and I really do appreciate the replies. Wether you condone homosexuality or not is your decision, and I won't shoot to change that. All I ask is that you respect, or at the very least tolerate my choice, and don't push to have me treated as a lesser member of this country. I'm a human being just like you. There's no reason I don't deserve the same rights.

 

[Kent]

@Kent: I personally don't care what it's called, so long as it gives me the same benefits/stipulations of a traditional marriage.

That statement is the true testiment of your heart's desires and out of everything in this thread I must say, this is surely the most important thing to me (just my opinion of course lol).

God* willing, all people will recognize that you truely want equality and not to simply upset societal norms.

Plus, with an attitude like that people like myself will always support you.

It's when you reject exactly what you want simply because it is not named what you want that people like myself will lose interest in your cause.

Just think of it like this...
A homeless man without shoes who wants nikes shouldn't reject a pair of adidas.

Of course, like I said before, I don't really feel strongly about either side...
So marriage, civil union or pinkie promise friends, it's all the same if the rights are the same. 👍

 

[Ten]

...and that's all I want. ^^

I really hold a lot of respect for you, Kent. You hit the nail right on the head.

 

[Schumy]

[snip]

👍 I couldn't agree more.

 

[Kent]

...and that's all I want. ^^

I really hold a lot of respect for you, Kent. You hit the nail right on the head.

Thank you my new friend, I feel the same. 👍

I will have an eye out for you around the forum so until next time,