Gay Marriage

[a6m5]

I don't participate in, attend, or even watch gay pride parades or festivals. It's stupid. We ***** about not being accepted, but we want special attention. I'm content with just being another american citizen. Yes, I feel discriminated against. Yes, I'm pissed off about not being able to marry someone I love. But no, I donot feel the need to parade my faggoty ass all over Main Street holding up a sparkly flag and singing about my orientation.

I'm gay. Woohoo. Does the entire world have to know? Don't get me wrong, it's nothing I'm ashamed of, but it's also nothing I'm beaming with pride about. It's like saying you like Cheese Doodles over Pringles. Are you gonna march in a Cheese Doodle parade? Are you gonna fly flags in your yard with big orange cheese curls on them?

I believe in Christianity, but as long as I live in the United States, I also support equal rights. One thing that did annoy me though were the gay parades. It's kind of cool to learn that not all gays are excited about the parades. To me, it was like, I don't care what you do in your bedroom, it's nobody elses business.

Personally, I can't endorse gay marriages. This might offend some, but I do believe marriage is between one man & one woman, of legal ages and not related, ofcourse. However, I do believe gay couples should receive equal benefits and rights as the married couples. Someone suggested calling it the "Civil Union" in earlier post, I think that would be a great compromise. Also, I just want to say, although I don't agree with the gay marriage issue, I'm aware that there are good & bad people on both sides(TenTen-San sounds like a really cool guy), and just because you're religious doens't mean you can judge, or think less of other people.

I've got a question. How are other countries handling this? Are there any groups pushing for gay marriage in any other countries?

 

[Ten]

Much appreciated, Kent. ^^

On the subject of gay parades and such, I'm not out to discourage celebrating diverstity, as I have been branded with before. (another forum, about a year ago) The thing is, you celebrate things like being a different race, or a different religion. Not who you sleep with. You can learn things of significant histrorical value from Black History Month and stuff like that. What do you learn from gay pride parades? "We're gay! Wahoo!"

...and?

Also, I believe there is a time and place for celebrating one's differences. As of now, the issue of homosexuality is a turbulent one in the US. You didn't see jewish people marching in Jewish Pride parades during the holocaust, did you?

You wait until you have grounds to rub your difference (and right to be so) in your opposition's face. Do it while you have very little support, and everyone will just laugh at you. Tell me I'm less supportive of my own "kind" (I hate saying that...) if you want, but I am well aware that very few people - especially the US government - take the gay community seriously. This is because "we" can't get our priorities straight. (excuse the pun, it was far from intentional) Part of that reason is because we call ourselves the "gay community". That makes a world of sense, you know? "We're just like you, only we hold ourselves in a different class than straight people! Please accept us as part of normal society, but keep in mind, we're gay and you're not!"

Please.

 

[Arwin]

I've got a question. How are other countries handling this? Are there any groups pushing for gay marriage in any other countries?

Over here homosexuals have equal rights of marriage as heterosexuals, I believe as of januari 2001. I think in Belgium recently the same law passed, I'm not sure about the other countries.

I looked onto the web and it's a year old, but gives some interesting info on the topic:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3108349.stm

 

[HondaKid86]

Though I agree with TenTen on most points, I feel the need to reiterate that a "separate-but-equal" institution like a "civil union" is plainly unconstitutional. Look it up, guys -- we struck down "separate-but-equal" not so long ago, and yet it's absent from most Americans' memories.

As for the anti-pride sentiment, I definitely agree -- it's not exactly something that I parade around, because to me, it's largely not a big deal.

 

[Zrow]

Take away the religion in a legal marraige and what do you have - a 'civil union', right? If it's the same thing with a different name, what's the problem?

 

[Ten]

Take away the religion in a legal marraige and what do you have - a 'civil union', right? If it's the same thing with a different name, what's the problem?

Nothing, as far as I;m concerned. "Marriage" is a christian union in the eyes of God. Christianity is apparently anti-gay. Soooooo....

One would assume that "marriage" and "gay" don't logically belong in the same phrase. I'm not out to disrupt or corrupt the traditions of another religion. A civil union, being exactly the same thing as a legally binding marriage, minus all the God and churches, is exactly what I'm shooting for, and I'd be damned content with that.

 

[HondaKid86]

Take away the religion in a legal marraige and what do you have - a 'civil union', right?

And yet, do heterosexual couples today go to their local Justice of the Peace to be issued a "civil union license"? No -- "marriage" (the word and its connotations) has transcended religion, especially when you take into account such social phenomena as "common law marriages" (not common law civil unions, mind you).

I remind you: an institution equal to another in everything but name is certainly inviting discreppancies to seep through its cracks. If any racial minority were to be forced en masse to accept a "civil union" rather than a "marriage" at their local Justice of the Peace, there would be an uproar... and yet, here we are. As a confused person, I'm very honestly begging the question, "Why?"

Separate-but-equal is a dangerous fire to play with... Constitution be damned in this era of the Patriot Act.

 

[Kent]

See,

To me, my posts from earlier are represented perfectly by tenten and hondakid.

Nothing personal hondakid, but I see your side of this as being "I want marriage" and not a recognition of love and equality.

Just marriage.

Compare that to tenten where I see nothing more than "I want culture to respect my love and desires... call it what you want, but in the end it will be the same."

To me, it comes down to one wanting the honest and true content, and the other wanting to redefine an age old term.

Oh well, I guess that is why stiff opposition will always be what hondakid meets, where-as tenten will recieve compasion and understanding from the majority of us.

 

[Ten]

No offense to anyone, especially hondakid, but this is why I am constantly branded as "traitorous" or "self-hating". People see my "settling" as me doing just that - admitting that I can't win and letting commonplace ignorance and discrimination win.

In the end, to me, being an athiest, religious backgrounds and words even closely associated with the lot is meaningless. I'm not christian, so what do I care what everyone else's (chrstians') God thinks? Call it a union, call it marriage, in the end it's just a word. You may as well argue that it's morally unsound and unconstitutional that we call black people black and white people white, when in the end, we're all just that - people.

Same difference, as my little brother constantly wins arguments against my logic with.

I think, that if we can get american society to at least present us our rights in an equally beneficial yet slighty differently named manner, than we're taking a step in the right direction. A step. There are still issues beyond this to adress concerning other taboo groups such as gays, but babysteps is all that american society is capable of - please bare with them.

 

[HondaKid86]

Nothing personal hondakid, but I see your side of this as being "I want marriage" and not a recognition of love and equality.

How would the institution represent equality if something as elemental as its name were different? I will grant you that any change from the status quo would definitely be a step in the right direction. That said, a "separate-but-equal" institution absolutely invites corruption (and, ultimately, inequality).

Oh well, I guess that is why stiff opposition will always be what hondakid meets

I refuse to believe that America (and the world) will forever remain mired in the sludge of bigotry and discrimination.

--

I am not here to be the militant, flag-flying gay activist. Before this thread, those of you that knew me at all knew me as a bringer of GT information and an honest-to-goodness car guy. I'm still that... and I'm still as genuine as I've ever been. I don't have any underlying motives, and I'm not conditioned by either side's propaganda -- I'm just standing up for what I think is right... for what will make millions -- yes, millions -- of Americans happy.

Besides, the likelihood that the right tall, pale, racecar-driving jock will just waltz into my life is absolutely nil... so I won't ever have to worry about this whole "marriage" thing for myself anyway.

 

[Duke]

I have to admit I'm with Hondakid on this one. I think the hangup on the word "marriage" is a front or a disguise for ultraconservatives to keep homosexuals labelled as "second class citizens". If 'marriage' is ultimately just a word, then they're hanging their hats on a very slim premise and they should be the ones to give it up. And if it is more than just a word, then the rights ain't so equal.

The thing that's getting lost in all this deliberate smokescreening about the definition of 'marriage' is this: NO ONE IS ASKING FOR A LAW REQUIRING CHURCHES TO MARRY GAY PEOPLE. NO one. And it's time for ultraconservatives to put the shoe on the other foot. Consider this: what if a given church DID accept gay marriages, but there was a law against it? Wouldn't that be just as bad as a law requring churches to perform gay marriages? Either way, civil law is interefering with private religious practice in a way that it shouldn't.

And this of course is based on the premise that religion shouldn't interfere with public law...

 

[Ten]

I agree wholely with this theory that you and Hondakid are speaking of, ND...

My point is, we need to get our foot in the door first. Humor them and let them call it what they want - it's not exactly trivial, but not as important - I feel - as the right itself. We'll work out the kinks as we go.

To borrow from this site's main theme, think of it as buying an old car you want to restore - you have to get the car before you can do anything to it, am I right?

 

[Schumy]

I have to admit I'm with Hondakid on this one. I think the hangup on the word "marriage" is a front or a disguise for ultraconservatives to keep homosexuals labelled as "second class citizens". If 'marriage' is ultimately just a word, then they're hanging their hats on a very slim premise and they should be the ones to give it up. And if it is more than just a word, then the rights ain't so equal.

The thing that's getting lost in all this deliberate smokescreening about the definition of 'marriage' is this: NO ONE IS ASKING FOR A LAW REQUIRING CHURCHES TO MARRY GAY PEOPLE. NO one. And it's time for ultraconservatives to put the shoe on the other foot. Consider this: what if a given church DID accept gay marriages, but there was a law against it? Wouldn't that be just as bad as a law requring churches to perform gay marriages? Either way, civil law is interefering with private religious practice in a way that it shouldn't.

And this of course is based on the premise that religion shouldn't interfere with public law...

BINGO 👍

look at Canada, we're hip and can accept change....same sex marriages are legal here.

the traditional judge-made definition of marriage as the "voluntary union for life of one man and one woman, to the exclusion of all others" has been reformulated to be "the lawful union of two persons to the exclusion of all others."

how's that for human rights ...we don't mix religion with civil law

 

[Ten]

Hmm...I only live about an hour or so from Canada...

 

[Kent]

Well,
I just wanted to leave a final message.

I'm done here. (this thread)

I wish all people the best, but I just don't think my view can be made clear without coming across as being a bigot or being an ultra-conservative with a smoke-grenade.

My points have been put across as well as I possibly could, and so...

Later.

And good luck with the cause my friends.
Just try and remember the real history of the world before you count on the people of the world dropping ideologically driven hate and discrimination.

 

[Schumy]

Hmm...I only live about an hour or so from Canada...

We also invest heavily in health care and education and we are actually interested in the sustainability of the environment. You should come. There's so many American university professors up here ...they come here for work and end up staying even when they would make more money south of the border.

 

[Ev0]

Actually, the recent gay marriage decision in Canada is unfortunately on very unstable ground. The Conservative Party (the official opposition) is going to try and reverse the decision. There are some politicians that are threatining to resign because of the issue. And of course, there are lots of people in Canada who are opposed to gay marriage.

It's truly sad that people can still be prejudiced in this day and age. Allowing two men or two women to marry eachother will not be the downfall of family values as so many people have predicted.

 

[Ten]

Just try and remember the real history of the world before you count on the people of the world dropping ideologically driven hate and discrimination.

Exactly what I meant with this statement -

A step. There are still issues beyond this to adress concerning other taboo groups such as gays, but babysteps is all that american society is capable of - please bare with them.

I truly appreciate your feedback and involvment in this thread, Kent. Best of luck to you as well. Grounded realists are few and far between - it's good to see we have a nice little handful of them here at GTP. ^^

We also invest heavily in health care and education and we are actually interested in the sustainability of the environment. You should come. There's so many American university professors up here ...they come here for work and end up staying even when they would make more money south of the border.

It's actually been in my life's plan to make a permenent move there (I have a few friends in Calgary) before I'm 30. Once I finish my tech schooling (cookie-cutter mechanic courses) I'm going to embark on a journey into the great white north...or something. I've been convinced a thousand times over to make this move. 👍

 

[vladimir]

Thank you Vladimir, this is very well put. This coming from a homosexual. (there doesn't seem to be a single one in all the pages of this thread.)

uh, i am one, actually. i think i mentioned it somewhere in this thread but i usually try to build my arguments on rational thinking and not on subjective ones.

I don't participate in, attend, or even watch gay pride parades or festivals. It's stupid. We ***** about not being accepted, but we want special attention. I'm content with just being another american citizen. Yes, I feel discriminated against. Yes, I'm pissed off about not being able to marry someone I love. But no, I donot feel the need to parade my faggoty ass all over Main Street holding up a sparkly flag and singing about my orientation.

personally i have mixed opinions of these parades. i think they are too much party these days. i do not need to celebrate my sexuality. secondly they seem to be very commercial, they are only this huge and common because companys are making money from them (and the prices seem to be even higher on the gay parades than they are already at other events!?).

on the other hand they exist to remember "our" history and to demontrate for equal rights and as long as there are no equal rights "we" have a good reason to demonstrate, as i already said.

so i am uncertain.




as for the marriage issue: i do not care about the name, i want my rights and thats it. if it is not possible to find a majority for gay marriage today but for gay civil unions than it is fine. maybe we can merge them into one marriage in fifty years.



if you are interested in the status of gay marriage worldwide, i have found this list on reuters.com.


i even read that the king of kambodia wanted to allow gay marriage.

 

[Ten]

Well, my stating that I was gay wasn't a way to sound authoratative or absolute, it was a way for me to express that there were in fact at least one of us here at GTP. I had thumbed through the thread initially, but a lot of it was repeat arguments and some was random ignorance that I'd rather care to shrug off and ignore. Sorry about that.

It's good to know I'm not alone in that aspect.

As for your views on the positive side of gay pride parades, I see your point - however, don't you think it's a little inappropriate to build a "history" off of who you sleep with?

 

[PublicSecrecy]

Help! I Think I'm A Lesbian Trapped In A Man's Body!

 

[Duke]

Well, there are three actual homosexuals who've volunteered the information. There is at least one other person who says he's dabbled in it, and there are dozens of us to whom it's not an issue one way or the other except to say that we think you should be allowed to marry and other competent adult who wishes to marry you as well.

 

[inferno]

I'll say this right at the top, I'm diving in way over my head here. I'm only a kid (18) and I don't have the resources to sound inteligent on this matter, but for me the bottom line is that the Big Book forbids it. As mentioned before, it's not "be fruity and petrify" it's, "be fruitfull and multiply". The problen in my opinion is that people dont understand what love is anymore. They get a tingly felling downstairs and leap for the alter (or the sack). That Tingly feeling is not love. It confuses things to no end. Sex feels good for the same reason eating feels good. Survival. Think about it. the results are not so favorabe for a free spirited individual, what with the daipers and having to be their and all. If sex wasn't pleasureable we wouldnt do it, and mankind would have a limited future. Sex is not the recreational thing it's been turned in to. To me Gay mairrage is not so much the question, but simply out of the question. To be Homosexual is Biblicly and morally wrong.

 

[Ten]

You have your opinions and you are welcome to them - I won't attempt to change them or make you see it my way.

However, you have no grounds to tell me that I only "love" someone for the sex. I've been in one relationship were I was very deeply involved with this person. And let me tell you, it was NEVER an issue about the sex. When we split up, I was in a tremendous amount of pain. I cried every night, and it caused my once dormant insomnia to return in full force. We were very strongly attached to one another - there was nothing in this world more important to me than him, and I had thought he felt the same way. I suppose I was wrong.

Regardless, I wasn't the shallow induvidual you think a gay person is. You claim we confuse the pleasure of sex with the intricacies of love. You have absolutely no grounds on which to say this, except for a few passages that someone scribbled down in "the big book".

I've been very patient and understanding with christians who donot accept me - but in this case I am deeply offended. You blatantly accused me of "not knowing what love is." If you understood the pain and regret I feel for letting him go - the pain I feel everytime I think about it, especially now - maybe then you'd see how seriously wrong you are.

You're cruel. Painfully cruel.

I'll say it again -

Too many people base their entire lives around the fear of not living up to the "teachings" of some book. Think for yourself, or don't. I don't care. But stop making your religion my problem.

To quote Kent, "I'm done here."

I've said all I can, and I've tried to present myself in the most open and understanding manner possible - but I guess I just don't have any grounds to talk over some book. I have no idea what love is, so I guess I have no right to post in this thread and debate about it.

Have fun living in the dark ages.

 

[vladimir]

I'll say this right at the top, I'm diving in way over my head here. I'm only a kid (18) and I don't have the resources to sound inteligent on this matter, but for me the bottom line is that the Big Book forbids it. As mentioned before, it's not "be fruity and petrify" it's, "be fruitfull and multiply". The problen in my opinion is that people dont understand what love is anymore. They get a tingly felling downstairs and leap for the alter (or the sack). That Tingly feeling is not love. It confuses things to no end. Sex feels good for the same reason eating feels good. Survival. Think about it. the results are not so favorabe for a free spirited individual, what with the daipers and having to be their and all. If sex wasn't pleasureable we wouldnt do it, and mankind would have a limited future. Sex is not the recreational thing it's been turned in to. To me Gay mairrage is not so much the question, but simply out of the question. To be Homosexual is Biblicly and morally wrong.

sorry, but what has gay marriage to do with sex? it is about love, actually. you don't marry someone for the sex (usually)...

As for your views on the positive side of gay pride parades, I see your point - however, don't you think it's a little inappropriate to build a "history" off of who you sleep with?

it is not a history of whom you sleep with. just like black people did not demonstrate to celebrate the colour of their skin.

it is the history of a certain part of the population, like the jews or the blacks, that was and is discriminated against. homosexuals have suffered throughout ages like blacks and jews and other people. there is martin luther king day, the holocaust is remembered and there is a day where homosexuals remember and demonstrate.
as i already said i fear that on the pride marches and parades there is too much party and less rememberance, but maybe that is just the way the majority of the homosexuals that attend these marches deal with it?

i think it has something to do with how homosexuals were discriminated against, because the discrimination was different. homosexuals could live without problems as long as nobody knew it, so everyone had to hide (and still lots of people hide and lots of people who attend these marches today had to hide ten years ago).
so such a march gives those people the ability to get out and do the other extreme for one day, to show off and to show everyone that they exist and to feel strong instead of weak. so it is a reaction to the oppression.
when martin luther king lead the march to washington, they also celebrated and the blacks showed everyone how strong they are as a huge group.

 

[Ten]

Thanks, I think I understand it a little better now, Vlad. 👍

I appreciate everyone's participation in this thread - I've learned to understand a lot of things I didn't understand about both sides of the stone, and I think reading this thread may have helped me become a better person, in a way.

Best wishes for the holidays and all of you keep it covered, no matter who you bed. Thanks for the feedback and/or support. 👍

 

[Tacet_Blue]

I appreciate everyone's participation in this thread - I've learned to understand a lot of things I didn't understand about both sides of the stone, and I think reading this thread may have helped me become a better person, in a way.

If you've read this entire thread..then well done (it's pretty long )...I think I came in around page 31 and I hope I didn't offend anyone, I might not understand, but that's a different matter )

Best wishes for the holidays and all of you keep it covered, no matter who you bed. Thanks for the feedback and/or support. 👍

Cheers
Happy Christmas to y'all

"no matter who you bed"
Well...right now, I'm lucky, because she is gorgeous...and I'm telling you,
you can't beat p*ssy

Merry x-mas xxx

 

[vladimir]

Best wishes for the holidays and all of you keep it covered, no matter who you bed. Thanks for the feedback and/or support. 👍

thanks, merry christmas to you, too, and of course to everyone else here as well.

"no matter who you bed"
Well...right now, I'm lucky, because she is gorgeous...and I'm telling you,
you can't beat p*ssy

you have no clue!

 

[87chevy]

Help! I Think I'm A Lesbian Trapped In A Man's Body!

You too??!!! Well at least i'm not alone

happy holidays and merry chrisma-han-a-kwan-za-ka!!!!!


ps:

i'm cool with gay marriage as long as both chics are hot!

 

[PublicSecrecy]

To be Homosexual is Biblicly and morally wrong.

Which bible?
Who's morals?

There's something about that quote, that scares me. You're aware that being gay is a genetic trait and not a decision, right? And that religion is about as trivial as arguing about jello with a 5 year old.