Gay Marriage

[vladimir]

Well, no. And you just said the reason why you shouldn't get the same rights. It's not the same thing. If you want to shack up with another guy knock yourself out. But don't call it a marriage like my mother and father have had for 33 years. Because it's not the same.

whats the difference?

and i just said that the term "marriage" was not important, a civil union would do it.

 

[Pako]

Legal State Santioned Unions for gays, go for it! What criteria or boundries do we place on these unions or do we leave it open for 'anyone' for any 'situation'?

Anyone? Call it a Civil Union if you like....what boundries if any would be placed on the definition?

 

[Ten]

Ten, that was nice. But since you do NOT wish to engage in a traditional marriage I simply won't call it that.

Not asking you or anyone else to. A marriage involves a church and a priest. This wouldn't have to. Union is good enough a word for me.

 

[Carl.]

so call it a non-traditional legal union, give us the same rights, and everything is fine?

But then we have to also ensure that we don't use the term incorrectly in all situations: for example one shouldn't be allowed to say " a marriage of pink and fushia", since those colors might be deemed as non-heterosexual ones... there's a real issue here.

Ok, more seriously, I'd be fine with it if the only constraint was to change the name to something less... offensive *sigh* than gay marriage. But even that is fundamentally wrong. Should we find other words for husband and wife too?

Where I live, we usually don't cuss with fecal or sexual related words, but 95% of the time we do it with religious words. Kind of an historic relief after being relieved of the overwhelming power the church exerted in not so distant history.

 

[Ten]

But then we have to also ensure that we don't use the term incorrectly in all situations: for example one shouldn't be allowed to say " a marriage of pink and fuschia", since those colors might be deemed as non-heterosexual ones... there's a real issue here.

Ok, more seriously, I'd be fine with it if the only constraint was to change the name to something less... offensive *sigh* than gay marriage. But even that is fundamentally wrong. Should we find other words for husband and wife too?

Where I live, we usually don't cuss with fecal or sexual related words, but 95% of the time we do it with religious words. Kind of an historic relief after being relieved of the overwhelming power the church exerted in not so distant history.

Calling it something else while getting what you want isn't settling or simple compromise - it's a step forward, in my eyes.

 

[Carl.]

Calling it something else while getting what you want isn't settling or simple compromise - it's a step forward, in my eyes.

Indeed.

From where it stands, that's not very difficult to step forward though, but you're right about this, that's why I said I was fine with it.

Baby steps... baby steps.

 

[Pako]

Not asking you or anyone else to. A marriage involves a church and a priest. This wouldn't have to. Union is good enough a word for me.

I'll ask it again....

What boundries, if any, would be defined by this "Union"?

 

[Carl.]

I'll ask it again....

What boundries, if any, would be defined by this "Union"?

Same as a current heterosexual legal union, outside the church, I believe.

 

[Pako]

Same as a current heterosexual legal union, outside the church, I believe.

So....we would open the doors to homosexuals, but leave the doors closed on all other situational groups?

 

[Carl.]

So....we would open the doors to homosexuals, but leave the doors closed on all other situational groups?

Which groups?

 

[Ten]

I'm not too sure what you mean by boundaries, exactly, but I'll give it a shot.

Basically, similar benefits to a marriage. We are joined legally in the eyes of the state, we recieve similar taxing, we are considered on the same level - not the same page - as a married couple.

However, I see problems inherent with this idea. What about gay christians? They'll surely still push for a true marriage. This may sound selfish, but that is not my agenda, not being a member of the christian community and having no interest in it's workings. Religion has put a wall between christians and homosexuals, and I will have no part in it. As I've said before, I'm not out to upset the traditions of your religion - I'm out to start my own set of traditions.

Sorry if this seems dodgy and doesn't answer your question. If you wish, I'll give it another try when I have a clearer head.

 

[Swift]

However, I see problems inherent with this idea. What about gay christians? They'll surely still push for a true marriage. This may sound selfish, but that is not my agenda, not being a member of the christian community and having no interest in it's workings. Religion has put a wall between christians and homosexuals, and I will have no part in it. As I've said before, I'm not out to upset the traditions of your religion - I'm out to start my own set of traditions.

Sorry if this seems dodgy and doesn't answer your question. If you wish, I'll give it another try when I have a clearer head.

Just so you know. There is no such thing as a gay christrian. There are gays that find christ and struggle against homosexuality to become heterosexual. Just like I stuggled with sin when I was saved. But to say there is a "gay christian" is a contradiction in terms.

I know that's not where you stand. I just wanted to make sure it was clear.

 

[Pako]

Which groups?

I'm not too sure what you mean by boundaries, exactly, but I'll give it a shot.

Basically, similar benefits to a marriage. We are joined legally in the eyes of the state, we recieve similar taxing, we are considered on the same level - not the same page - as a married couple.

However, I see problems inherent with this idea. What about gay christians? They'll surely still push for a true marriage. This may sound selfish, but that is not my agenda, not being a member of the christian community and having no interest in it's workings. Religion has put a wall between christians and homosexuals, and I will have no part in it. As I've said before, I'm not out to upset the traditions of your religion - I'm out to start my own set of traditions.

Sorry if this seems dodgy and doesn't answer your question. If you wish, I'll give it another try when I have a clearer head.

What about situations where there are two brothers or two sisters or two gay 1st cousins or a mother and daughter that also want to take advantage of such said unions? Should we allow that as well, or do we deny them this right?

 

[194GVan]

There can be gays that think they are christians, but arent really because of the blatant disregard for the rules of the church. I doubt they would go to church as their beliefs are labeled as wrong and unacceptable.

As far as gay marriage is concerned, live and let live, different strokes for different folks. As long as theyre not trying to marry me I dont see why its causing such an uproar. Its not like gays force their opinions on others, its pretty much the other way around. So much for separation of church and state......

 

[vladimir]

Just so you know. There is no such thing as a gay christrian. There are gays that find christ and struggle against homosexuality to become heterosexual. Just like I stuggled with sin when I was saved. But to say there is a "gay christian" is a contradiction in terms.

I know that's not where you stand. I just wanted to make sure it was clear.

strange, strange, as i have indeed met homosexual christians. the only struggle they encounter is with their narrow minded fellow christians...

What about situations where there are two brothers or two sisters or two gay 1st cousins or a mother and daughter that also want to take advantage of such said unions? Should we allow that as well, or do we deny them this right?

is a heterosexual brother allowed to marry his heterosexual sister?

whats the point of that question?

There can be gays that think they are christians, but arent really because of the blatant disregard for the rules of the church. I doubt they would go to church as their beliefs are labeled as wrong and unacceptable.

that is not true for all churches. there are protestant and other churches who, even if they don't marry homosexuals (yet), do not treat their homosexual members any differently than their heterosexual ones. they don't tell them to become straight or abstinent, but instead support them in their struggle against discrimination.

there is for example this german organization called "homosexuals and church":
http://www.huk.org/e/goal.htm

As far as gay marriage is concerned, live and let live, different strokes for different folks. As long as theyre not trying to marry me I dont see why its causing such an uproar. Its not like gays force their opinions on others, its pretty much the other way around. So much for separation of church and state......

👍

 

[Pako]

is a heterosexual brother allowed to marry his heterosexual sister?

whats the point of that question?

No, a heterosexual brother is not allowed to marry his heterosexual sister. The argument for not allowing this should be obvious to anyone who has seen the effects of in-breeding. The point of the question is to get an answer to further this debate. Would you like to answer it or ignore it?

 

[Ten]

What about situations where there are two brothers or two sisters or two gay 1st cousins or a mother and daughter that also want to take advantage of such said unions? Should we allow that as well, or do we deny them this right?

I'm very sorry, but I'm afraid I can't answer that question. You see, I don't care what two induviduals do with one another so long as it isn't all up in my face and doesn't hurt anyone.

Brother and sister, brother and brother, hell - Son and Mother...

I'm not them. It's none of my business.

 

[PS]

Raise your hand if you chose to be heterosexual.

My point exacly.

Noone chooses; they just are. It's just the way that they feel, and absolutely uncontrollable subconscious attraction to a particular sex and there is no way it's different between gays and straits.

I know I didn't wake up one day thinking "Hmm, I'm going to be heterosexual now."

I see noone read this. 1 day, 4 pages later, and people still don't realize that 90% of this thread was anihilated in a single post.

 

[Iceman]

I don't really have a position on the gay marriage issue, but I do have one question for you Ten or anyone for that matter. Why is marriage so important for gay and lesbian couples? Is there any huge benefit from having this union? And shouldn't just being with someone be enough? If you truly love someone, then I don't think marraige should be a necessity. I'm not saying that couples may want that union/title, but in the end shouldn't the relationship enough.

 

[Swift]

strange, strange, as i have indeed met homosexual christians. the only struggle they encounter is with their narrow minded fellow christians...

You don't understand christianity if you make a statement like that.

 

[Carl.]

The argument for not allowing this should be obvious to anyone who has seen the effects of in-breeding.

You answered your question right there. Physical harm is (or has a very high probability to be) done to someone else, obviously.

If it didn't implicate those risks, I wouldn't care, really. What other consenting adults, do with their private life, as weird as it may seem to me, does not concern me.

 

[Tacet_Blue]

The year is 2005!

Just to remind some of those in this thread that it is NOT the 18th century
It's the 21st and I am truly amazed that there is such opposition to a legal union (marriage is for churches, and I don't want to go there ) between two consenting adults. I thought we, as the human species had advanced past such prejudice, but some of the opinions here are ultra conservative

Why is marriage so important for gay and lesbian couples? Is there any huge benefit from having this union? And shouldn't just being with someone be enough? If you truly love someone, then I don't think marriage should be a necessity.

It's more about being treated fairly. If a couple live together for twenty years and one dies, there is a huge inheritance tax to pay on anything bequeathed...not so if you are married.
There are other tax reliefs depending on your country or state.

 

[Ten]

I don't really have a position on the gay marriage issue, but I do have one question for you Ten or anyone for that matter. Why is marriage so important for gay and lesbian couples? Is there any huge benefit from having this union? And shouldn't just being with someone be enough? If you truly love someone, then I don't think marraige should be a necessity. I'm not saying that couples may want that union/title, but in the end shouldn't the relationship enough.

I can't speak for all of us, but for me, it validates my citizenship. As of now, I don't feel like I have the same worth as a heterosexual US citizen.

Or, to put it simply, try not having the right to marry (or in my case, "unite with") the one you love and get back to me on how that makes you feel. (not to sound snippy)

Or, again, if it isn't such a big deal, why not just give us the right? (again, not to sound snippy)

 

[PS]

You don't understand christianity if you make a statement like that.

We never do until we're brainwashed and become walking hypocritical anti-homosexual preechers.

 

[Iceman]

You don't understand christianity if you make a statement like that.

Isn't the basis of Christianity that Jesus died for the sins of man? If homosexuality is a sin, then why isn't it forgiven in the same sense?

 

[PS]

And who wants to take a stab at what kind of a school Marilyn Manson went to (yes, I'm going somewhere with this)?

[edit]

Ok, 20 minutes has gone by.

MM went to a Christian school, in Canton Ohio. A VERY christian Christian school. So christian in fact, that students weren't allowed to have hair that was longer than the tops of their ears. After numerous preachings about homosexuality, peoples sins being the end of the earth, and realizing that Christrianity was a way to paralyze people with fear, he began to rebel.

What does this have to do with gay marriage?

Religion doesn't do anything but brainwash people and force others to conform to certain unattainable standards. The fact that homosexuality is considered a sin is downright apalling, as the bible teaches to "judge not lest ye be judged", and to forgive. What confuses me is that one can kill another, repent, and get away with it, yet you can't have a consentual loving relationship with the same sex. Confusing if you ask me.

 

[Famine]

Famine, sodomy of any type is considred a Sin by God.

I see. So does God have something against the anus? It seems that a heterosexual couple can enjoy vaginal intercourse, but no-one can enjoy anal intercourse.

How about oral intercourse - is that a sin?

You know, this is getting really boring. We follow a set of rules and conduct for our lives so we're totally brainwashed and just andriods walking around in human form.

I'm not the one that said:

my religion dictates

To me that sounds exactly like you're being told what to do.

Your religion dictates that homosexuality is evil, despite the fact that homosexuality is most often intercourse (on a personal, not just sexual level) between two loving partners. You aren't thinking why homosexuality is possibly not the evil that it's made out to be. You're being dictated to that it IS evil, "because". So, in essence, I was correct when I said "Being told precisely what to believe again?" - you're being TOLD to believe that homosexuality is a sin.


I also follow a set of rules and conduct for my life. It's a set I arrived at independantly and is subject to constant review and modification as I learn things through experience. Your set of rules and conduct is dictated to you and hasn't changed despite 2,000 years passing.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

Famine: Do you celebrate birthdays?

 

[Swift]

Isn't the basis of Christianity that Jesus died for the sins of man? If homosexuality is a sin, then why isn't it forgiven in the same sense?

Because to be forgiven you need to repent(turn away) from the sin. You can't just kill somebody, knowing it's a sin and just say, oh Jesus will forgive me, and then keep killng. It's the same with me. I can't just keep on sinning. I need to turn away from it.

 

[Concept]

Gay men are nasty.

Lesbians rule!

That's my deep thought about gayness. 👍