Gay Marriage

[Sage]

I'm assuming atheism is a sin. So, um, how 'bout you ban atheism while you're at it?

 

[HondaKid86]

Gay men are nasty.

... nevermind... not even worth it.

 

[Ten]

... nevermind... not even worth it.

My thoughts exactly.

Though I feel a little humor was more than welcome in this thread.

 

[Arwin]

Just so you know. There is no such thing as a gay christrian. There are gays that find christ and struggle against homosexuality to become heterosexual. Just like I stuggled with sin when I was saved. But to say there is a "gay christian" is a contradiction in terms.

I know that's not where you stand. I just wanted to make sure it was clear.

That's your definition. But just so you know, you don't hold the exclusive copyright to Christianity. There are a lot of different 'brands' with different opinions. Of course, all Catholics, Protestants, Lutherians, Reformed Baptists and so on believe they are the true Christians, but please. You know the Sunnites and Shi'ites in Iraq right? And you know they've been repressing eachother bloodily over the last centuries. Well, the same used to happen in many 'Christian' countries, Catholics vs Protestants, remainders of such ugliness are still to be seen in Ireland. In most countries that have advanced beyond that state of affairs, the Catholics and Protestants have learnt to respect each other and leave each other alone. All that's being asked of you is to do the same towards homosexuals.

For the record, and not because I think that actually matters, but science seems to point out that the vast majority of homosexuals is born homosexual. There's a part of the brain that develops sexuality around the 12th year, and which determines sexual preference, among others by creating a prevalence of a certain type of neural connection. This was hard to identify because its much harder to see this in someone before the age of 12. It's very early days, but they're learning fast. The possibility that this is something innate is certainly very clearly present. But the concept of 'repress until proven innate' is idiotic to me - all those years that it was innate before it was bad, but now that it can be shown to be innate, it's ok.

But it doesn't matter, because religion is not innate, but a cultural trait passed from generation to generation, or actually chosen. If homosexuality were truly a life-style choice (which, if so, is in most countries a higher form of martyrdom than most Christians have ever chosen for themselves), it would still deserve the same protection as any religion does.

In other words, choose your own lifestyle, but protect the rights of others even if they choose a different lifestyle from yours.

 

[JacktheHat]

Just so you know. There is no such thing as a gay christrian. There are gays that find christ and struggle against homosexuality to become heterosexual. Just like I stuggled with sin when I was saved. But to say there is a "gay christian" is a contradiction in terms.

I know that's not where you stand. I just wanted to make sure it was clear.

And you know that because?......

Prejudice or paranoia?

 

[Touring Mars]

Just so you know. There is no such thing as a gay christrian. There are gays that find christ and struggle against homosexuality to become heterosexual. Just like I stuggled with sin when I was saved. But to say there is a "gay christian" is a contradiction in terms.

I know that's not where you stand. I just wanted to make sure it was clear.

I'm glad this is in the Opinion forum, because that's exactly what the above statement is... your opinion... I don't know any gay people who have struggled against their homosexuality to become heterosexual. Plenty of gay people struggle to come to terms with the fact that they are gay, but if they really are gay, then they're not likely to waste too much time trying to be something they are not i.e straight... whether you are gay or not shouldn't affect how you worship God or how you consider yourself as a Christian... it is only narrow-minded Christians who will not accept gays, not the reverse... so you can be a gay Christian....who has the right to deny them their right to worship Christ, by calling them non-Christian just because they are gay?

 

[Solid Lifters]

Why does religion ban homosexuality? It's a sin. But why is it a sin? Because a religion can't survive. Why can't it survive? Because gay couples can't have children. So, the religion dies because it is not passed down to the next generation. We can't have that, now can we?

Banning gay marriage helps a religion surrvie. But, today that no longer applies. Gay couples can have children. Though, in some states it's very difficult or next to impossible, but it does happen frequently these days.

So, why can't religion change with the times? Why can't religion progress along with the world? It is the inability to change that will lead to the downfall of religion. Not just on this issue, but with whatever issue needs changing.

 

[Mike Rotch]

When reading this thread, I found it both amusing and worrying that people have such archaic views on religion. But as (i think) Touring Mars pointed out, these are merely opinions expressed.

My opinion is that if a large group of people want to get told how to believe and what to believe in by some apparently important guy wearing a robe, appointed by other apparently important people, that is fine.

That doesnt give them the right to tell other people "they are sinning" by hiding the salami in certain parts of downtown (or whatever), and equally, people hiding the salami shouldnt moan about not being let into the club that is dictated to the big important robed guy.

I wont aire my views on aspects of catholisism or religion in general, danoffs thread title pretty much summed it all up in one go. Needless to say, "holier than thou" attitudes are crap.

 

[Swift]

I'm glad this is in the Opinion forum, because that's exactly what the above statement is... your opinion... I don't know any gay people who have struggled against their homosexuality to become heterosexual. Plenty of gay people struggle to come to terms with the fact that they are gay, but if they really are gay, then they're not likely to waste too much time trying to be something they are not i.e straight... whether you are gay or not shouldn't affect how you worship God or how you consider yourself as a Christian... it is only narrow-minded Christians who will not accept gays, not the reverse... so you can be a gay Christian....who has the right to deny them their right to worship Christ, by calling them non-Christian just because they are gay?

You totally missed the point of my post and have no clue what christianity is. Obviously.

You're opinion is fine if it's your opinion. But don't tell me what christianity is or isn't when it's quite obvious you don't understand what it is to be one. Certainly not an Apostolic Christrain.

Alsp, for the rest of you that responded to my post with "you have a holier then though attitude" That's not what I'm saying. Where Have I said I'm better then you? Where have I said that I'm paranoid or predjudice? We've had gay people come to our church and I'd never turn them away or said "You dirty sinner! Why are you in a holy place?" Nope, the whole point is to get them saved, not judge them on what they've done before they started coming to church.

I can tell that most of you don't even understand the general concepts from where I'm coming from. YOu just think I want all the gay people to burn in hell or something. And that's ridiculous, So just stop all the hating. Jesus died as much for gay people as he did for me. So why would I think I'm better then someone else?

 

[Mike Rotch]

Swift, so you are saying that if a person realises he is gay (you know what I mean) he must stop being a christian?

 

[Swift]

Swift, so you are saying that if a person realises he is gay (you know what I mean) he must stop being a christian?

No, I'm saying that with all the rest of sin, that a christian will turn away from it. Any person that keeps commiting the same sin over and over with no repentance, and not trying to change is simply not a christian. Would you like to see scripture on that?

 

[Mike Rotch]

No, I'm saying that with all the rest of sin, that a christian will turn away from it. Any person that keeps commiting the same sin over and over with no repentance, and not trying to change is simply not a christian.

Bare with me, I am trying to understand your point of view

So person A realises he/she is a homosexual. Either he/she must stop being homosexual OR he/she must stop being a christian?

you like to see scripture on that?

Pass thanks. I dont regard scriptures very highly (any religion).

 

[Arwin]

Jesus died as much for gay people as he did for me. So why would I think I'm better then someone else?

Then just answer this simple question.

If we're talking about same sex marriage, from a purely legal standpoint. In other words, a marriage that affords the rights and benefits on both state and federal levels, not a marriage according to the traditional values of your Church.

Do you believe that same sex marriage should be legal or not?

 

[Swift]

Then just answer this simple question.

If we're talking about same sex marriage, from a purely legal standpoint. In other words, a marriage that affords the rights and benefits on both state and federal levels, not a marriage according to the traditional values of your Church.

Do you believe that same sex marriage should be legal or not?

Well, of course not. I think it's wrong for gay people to raise children. Period.

 

[ledhed]

Why ?

 

[Arwin]

Well, of course not. I think it's wrong for gay people to raise children. Period.

Ok, so you're very clearly bigoted there, and applying your Christian values selectively to matters beyond your concern, if for instance these two gay people are not Christians. Not to mention the fact that you assume a same sex marriage involves people who love each other. Not historically something all that self-explanatory, considering that marriages used to be arranged pretty much universally.

Now, what if they were two straight guys?

 

[JacktheHat]

Where have I said that I'm paranoid or predjudice?

Most of your posts in this thread.

You're not saying that you personally believe homosexuality to be a sin, you're saying that it's definitely a sin, period. Can you qualify this information?
Homosexuality appears in the animal kingdom on an extensive basis, these animals don't 'choose' to be gay, it's nature doing what nature does. Surely if homesexuality was a sin then God would not allow it to happen as he did not give these creatures the ability to make such choices, or turn their backs on their sins.

And what about homosexual priests, vicars whatever... they haven't turned their backs on their alleged sins, why does God allow them to teach his gospel/propaganda if they are sinners?

 

[ledhed]

Guys..attacking someone because of what they beieve is not what the opinion forum is for . If you have knowlage of the Bible then you know it says that homosexuality is a sin .
The man is true to what he believes in . He is expressing his opinion . how can that make him paranoid and predudiced ? Attack the message not the messenger .

 

[Mike Rotch]

Do you believe that same sex marriage should be legal or not?

Well, of course not. I think it's wrong for gay people to raise children. Period.

your are ..... applying your Christian values selectively to matters beyond your concern, if for instance these two gay people are not Christians

Thats is the problem. I force myself to understand why christians have their views about 'christian' homosexuals, but when religious views are tarred en masse onto everyone, it becomes a matter of "my opinion is gays shouldnt have kids" rather then "thats what my religion says"..

 

[Touring Mars]

You totally missed the point of my post and have no clue what christianity is. Obviously.

You're opinion is fine if it's your opinion. But don't tell me what christianity is or isn't when it's quite obvious you don't understand what it is to be one. Certainly not an Apostolic Christrain.

That's a tad unfair... I may not subscribe to your definition of what makes a person a Christian, but I do have a very good idea of what Christian values are... You are very right, however, that I am probably the last person to tell you what an Apostolic Christian is, and I don't think that anything I say will or even should change your views on Christianity.. that's your business... but you seem to be saying "OK, anyone can be a Christian, but if that person happens to be gay, then they will have to realise the error of their ways and become straight"... I'm sorry, but that's not how it works. In reality, it's ludicrous to expect gay people to 'go straight' if they want to be a 'real' Christian... what happens when the converse happens? If a Christian realises that he or she is gay, should they immediately stop calling themselves Christian, despite the fact that their sexuality has no bearing whatsoever on their values as a Christian...? If the answer to that is yes, then it is no wonder the church is having a hard time keeping up the numbers...

 

[JacktheHat]

Guys..attacking someone because of what they beieve is not what the opinion forum is for . If you have knowlage of the Bible then you know it says that homosexuality is a sin .
The man is true to what he believes in . He is expressing his opinion . how can that make him paranoid and predudiced ? Attack the message not the messenger .

And if you have knowledge of the bible you'll also now that homosexuality appears in it, as well as incest, prostituition, spouse-beating, child abuse, beastiality, slavery, oppression of women and even genocide.

It also includes at least three, sexually active, same sex couples.

And to say the bible says homosexuality is a sin is open to interpretation too.

I asked him why homosexuality appears in nature, I think this a valid question. If God created animals and chose not to give them free-will why does this occur?
Swift seems to think that homosexuals 'choose' their sexuality and have the ability to 'choose' not to be.

 

[DQuaN]

Although I have no problem with homosexuality or gay marriage. I am unsure about a gay couple raising children. Nothing to do with ethics or religion, I just think that it may be confusing for the child.

 

[Arwin]

Although I have no problem with homosexuality or gay marriage. I am unsure about a gay couple raising children. Nothing to do with ethics or religion, I just think that it may be confusing for the child.

I suppose you're also against single parent families? Are you against them up to the point where you think they should be forbidden by law? What if a single mother moves in with her sister, to save costs? Are you against two single but straight mothers joining forces and raising children together? Single but straight fathers? All too confusing? It has been shown again and again that gaydom isn't inheritable, neither through nurture nor through nature. If that were so, after all, gaydom wouldn't exist in the first place.

You think it may be confusing for the child, but seriously, how well have you thought that through, really?

 

[JacktheHat]

Although I have no problem with homosexuality or gay marriage. I am unsure about a gay couple raising children. Nothing to do with ethics or religion, I just think that it may be confusing for the child.

More confusing than being brought up by non-family members, bandied around between temporary carers and instituitions? Such as is the plight of many orphans in need of adoption...

 

[Swift]

Guys..attacking someone because of what they beieve is not what the opinion forum is for . If you have knowlage of the Bible then you know it says that homosexuality is a sin .
The man is true to what he believes in . He is expressing his opinion . how can that make him paranoid and predudiced ? Attack the message not the messenger .

Thanks Ledhed. Though I know we don't see eye to eye on this and perhaps never will. At least we have respect for each other. That's important and I appreciate it.

As far as gay animals go. Well, animals can't read the word, reason, or repent. So they can't sin. Animals also don't go to heaven or hell.

Jackthehat, I'd like examples of where same sex couples were either accepted or honored by God. Can you show me? Also, for some reason catholic preists are never allowed to marry. So who do you think they got to be preists? That's right, gay guys, since they wouldn't have to worry about marrying a woman. OF course, that turns into a whole new set of issues doesn't it? BTW, nowhere in the bible does it say that a minister can't be married.

 

[JacktheHat]

Thanks Ledhed. Though I know we don't see eye to eye on this and perhaps never will. At least we have respect for each other. That's important and I appreciate it.

As far as gay animals go. Well, animals can't read the word, reason, or repent. So they can't sin. Animals also don't go to heaven or hell.

Jackthehat, I'd like examples of where same sex couples were either accepted or honored by God. Can you show me? Also, for some reason catholic preists are never allowed to marry. So who do you think they got to be preists? That's right, gay guys, since they wouldn't have to worry about marrying a woman. OF course, that turns into a whole new set of issues doesn't it? BTW, nowhere in the bible does it say that a minister can't be married.

1 Samuel 18:1

"...Jonathan became one in spirit with David and he loved him as himself." (NIV)

"...the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul" (KJV)

 

[Famine]

Famine: Do you celebrate birthdays?

Ooooh, this should be good.

[Deadpan]

Yes, MrktMkr1986. Why?

[/Deadpan]

 

[Swift]

1 Samuel 18:1

"...Jonathan became one in spirit with David and he loved him as himself." (NIV)

"...the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul" (KJV)

ROFL! Oh man. Thanks. It's always good to laugh in the morning. Jonathan, Saul's son and David, the next annointed King of Israel were best friends. To the point that Johnathan actually gave to David his armor and helped him hide when Saul was trying to kill David. It doesn't say, David laid down with Johnathan or even David "knew" Johnathan. He loved him as his own soul, what does that mean? Well, let's see what Jesus has to say about it in Matthew:

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

So, Johnathan and David were simply caring out the word of God. Also, David was the only man in the bible that was "after God's own heart" So, for him to be a homosexual and THEN be king in old testament times would be an impossibility.

Talk about isolating scriptures.

 

[JacktheHat]

ROFL! Oh man. Thanks. It's always good to laugh in the morning. Jonathan, Saul's son and David, the next annointed King of Israel were best friends. To the point that Johnathan actually gave to David his armor and helped him hide when Saul was trying to kill David. It doesn't say, David laid down with Johnathan or even David "knew" Johnathan. He loved him as his own soul, what does that mean? Well, let's see what Jesus has to say about it in Matthew:

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

So, Johnathan and David were simply caring out the word of God. Also, David was the only man in the bible that was "after God's own heart" So, for him to be a homosexual and THEN be king in old testament times would be an impossibility.

Talk about isolating scriptures.

Isn't that what Christianity's all about, taking the Bible out of context?

And again it's all open to interpretation. Why is it impossible for him to be homosexual and be king?

 

[Delirious]

if anyone is interested in the gay marriage issue, read this (some parts omitted)

The image of God is both male and female and is reflected in a godly union between male and female where the creative power of God, His life-giving, His self-giving and His moral nature are perfectly expressed. This is only possible in a heterosexual union.
When God created a partner for Adam He created Eve - not another Adam. This means that perfect partnership requires some level of difference as well as a level of similarity so great that Adam could cry out loudly, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh". Sexual intimacy between a man and a woman is the normal method of male/female bonding (emotionally and physically) because it corresponds to the design of our bodies and because it is the normal means by which offspring are created.

If God had intended the human race to be fulfilled through both heterosexual and homosexual marriage, He would have designed our bodies to allow reproduction through both means and made both means of sexual intercourse healthy and natural. Homosexual anal intercourse carries a high risk of disease, this is recognized in Scripture where gay men are said to receive in their bodies the due penalty for their error

(Verses omitted here, but references are there for above)

These three references indicate that homosexual passions and acts are unnatural, shameful, contrary to sound doctrine and deny entrance to the Kingdom of God. This being so they cannot be the basis of a Christian marriage sanctioned by God's Church. The Church exists to save people, not to bless the means of their damnation. No marriage can be sanctioned by the Church if the very basis of the marriage involves acts that put the couple outside of eternal salvation. No matter what our society may legislate, the law of God is clear - that a marriage is not a godly marriage if it is a same sex union.

Hollywood has propagated the myth that when it comes to marriage "all you need is love." This is simply not true. Marriage is not based on emotion any more than any other partnership in life is. Marriage, like many human activities, involves emotion but it is not constituted by the presence of any particular set of emotions. I do not deny that many homosexuals feel deeply for their partners; however I do assert that no matter how deep the feelings, what they have is not a marriage in God's sight. It is a beautiful deception.

Just because an emotion is deep or powerful does not justify acting upon it. Like drugs, like adultery, like the abuse of alcohol or the love of money, or the power rush of human ego trips, there are emotions which are powerful and addictive and ultimately terribly destructive. Same sex marriages must satisfy criteria other than emotion. A marriage is more than a sexual pleasure center. A marriage is a social unit that is interwoven with dozens of other lives.
Same sex marriages do not last. Less than 5% of gays have ever had a relationship that lasted 3 years or more. Sex is not enough. Passion cannot sustain an inherently unstable social unit.

Marriage is a fundamental social institution that does not exist just for the emotional satisfaction of two individuals but for the greater good of the community which stands under the blessing or curse of God. Societies that put emotional fulfillment before right actions and principles will soon give way to a multitude of addictions and deep corruptions and collapse. God will judge any society that institutes same sex marriages.

I also believe that God will judge a society that permits adoption of children or the use of sperm banks by same sex couples. His Word stands over society and when it is deliberately flaunted in the name of progress and enlightenment, then it is not light but deep darkness that results. We cannot bend the principles of God's Word to suit vocal minority groups. While some nations may enact laws permitting these evils, the true church of God must stand resolutely firm and never allow the sanctioning of same sex marriages by Christian clergy. No church that takes the Bible seriously can sanction a union between homosexuals or lesbians.

if anyone is interested, http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-f018.html