Gay Marriage

[MrktMkr1986]

is it that surprising with those views you have expressed here, that some people might be offended?

No.

some of what you say is just untrue (the choice),

That's a matter of opinion, not a fact.

yet you insist on it even though the homosexuals should know better if they made a choice or not.

You can't make that assumption.

polite or not, its not only the offensive name calling that is insulting and hurts, its also the subtle but daily discrimination

Oh yeah, like we're not discriminated against? And I'm talking about religion either.

 

[ledhed]

What the majority of respected scientists now believe is that homosexuality is attributable to a combination of psychological, social, and biological factors. ETC.

I had to go back a few pages to find this.. One of the biggest problems some people have is they think someone wakes up one day and says to himself " You know what ? a nice big hairy ass and some man jewels would be a great start for the rest of my life "
Sorry but the " choice " involved for the great majority of gay people is that for them to have a life they must be true to who they are. DESPITE the fact that the majority of the world will despise them or barely tolerate thier existance. admiting you are gay has got to be one of the hardest and bravest things a person can do . At the same time knowing they are in for a fight for thier lifes.
now you tell me as a Christian why should it be that way ? Why should God care who loves as long as love exist ? Why should God care about what someone is doing with his sex organs ? A good person is a good person no matter whom they choose to share consential sex with .

 

[vladimir]

Oh, I get it. I believe something different from you. and I'm discriminating. You can't prove to me, genetically, that people are born gay. Hence it's a choice. Just like I choose to be a Christrian. I'm trying to figure out why that's such a hard concept to grasp.

yesterday i have seen a flying red elephant. can prove me that it does not exist? no. hence flying red elephants exist, as ridiculous as they are?!

It seems the overwhelming theme here is to "just let me do what I want" Yeah, well parents just don't let their chidlren do what they want. And neither does God. There have to be boundaries. Just as in every other aspect of our lives, there are boundaries.

there are boundaries and there have to be boundaries, but only if someone else is hurt.

gay marriage does not hurt anyone, thus it simply can't be moral to deny homosexuals the right.

(and don't tell me marriage was a christian/religious thing, marriage existed long before the christian religion and nowadays its the state who legally marries people)

But you know, for all the talking everyone has done here, nobody has even considered anything I've said. Very peculiar.

i have read the whole six pages, that is not true...

That's a matter of opinion, not a fact.

its not a matter of opinion. even if its not yet scientifically proven whether its biological or psychological or a mix of both, one thing is for sure, its no choice.
millions of homosexuals are shocked when they find it out and only wish to be straight. they want to be straight! yet they don't manage to choose becoming straight, they remain homosexual and struggle with it themselves. young homosexuals still struggle that much that the suicide rates within young homosexuals is a few times higher than with straight youths. how can you speak of a choice when so many homosexuals can't even accept it for themselves in the beginning?

You can't make that assumption.

yes i can.

Oh yeah, like we're not discriminated against? And I'm talking about religion either.

do you like being discriminated against?

i think i read that you are black...what would you say ifl the majority of the population would still think of you as less worthy, when you would still be held as slaves. would you still say "democracy, we are the minority, so its our problem?"

 

[ledhed]

Being gay is not a choice. You are or your not. The only choice is do you want to let anyone else know.

 

[Swift]

(and don't tell me marriage was a christian/religious thing, marriage existed long before the christian religion and nowadays its the state who legally marries people)

yeah, it really is. It is a spiritiual thing. Of course, it's been trivialized in this day and age. "Let's try this for a while. If it doesn't work, we'll just get divorced" That's rather sickening.

Marriage is about 2 souls coming together as one. But on a legal level, there are a lot of tax laws and other things that go into it. By saying gays can marry, you're putting that on the same plane as me getting married to my fiancee. That's just not something that I'm willing to accept.

 

[Danoff]

How about this.... I believe what I believe. And at least I stand up for it when all you do is say, live and let live. When it becomes a problem, then maybe we'll deal with it.

I'll say it again, just because you don't believe in something doesn't make it go away.

This does not respond to what I said. You have no right to impose your morals on others. You live in America (I think), and you have to respect other religions, other cultures and let them be free to do their thing - even if you think they're going to hell. You live in a free society (or at least as close to it as we've gotten) and are required to be tolerant (not accepting but tolerant) of other cultures - including homosexuality.

By saying gays can marry, you're putting that on the same plane as me getting married to my fiancee. That's just not something that I'm willing to accept.

Because you think being gay is wrong... you don't have t accept it, but you do have to tolerate it. They have just as much right to be here and live their live by their morals as you do by yours. You're only not allowed to interfere with each other (which is what you propose).

 

[Swift]

This does not respond to what I said. You have no right to impose your morals on others. You live in America (I think), and you have to respect other religions, other cultures and let them be free to do their thing - even if you think they're going to hell. You live in a free society (or at least as close to it as we've gotten) and are required to be tolerant (not accepting but tolerant) of other cultures - including homosexuality.

But that doesn't mean I have to let them redefine marriage. And I dont' have to let them do there thing. I can do what I can do to make sure they don't go to hell. Being tolerant doesn't mean I have to sit here and take it. It means that I shouldn't think your less of a person for doing that.

 

[Danoff]

But that doesn't mean I have to let them redefine marriage.

The current definition of marriage is discriminatory. Just like in early America we defined property as inclusive of black people. They redefined the definition of property to be in line with basic rights (and not discriminate) and they should redefine marriage to be non-discriminatory.

 

[Swift]

The current definition of marriage is discriminatory. Just like in early America we defined property as inclusive of black people. They redefined the definition of property to be in line with basic rights (and not discriminate) and they should redefine marriage to be non-discriminatory.

Again, prove that gay people are born gay and I'll be right there with you.

 

[vladimir]

Marriage is about 2 souls coming together as one.

that pretty much nails it...



btw, you have again not answered my question...

 

[MrktMkr1986]

its not a matter of opinion. even if its not yet scientifically proven whether its biological or psychological or a mix of both, one thing is for sure, its no choice.

So if I say God exists, even if its not yet scientifically proven, you call me a fundie right? I love how double standards work.

how can you speak of a choice when so many homosexuals can't even accept it for themselves in the beginning?

I never gave an opinion as to whether or not homosexuality was a choice. However, just because YOU believe all homosexuals are born that way does not make it fact.

do you like being discriminated against?

Of course not.

i think i read that you are black...

Correct.

what would you say ifl the majority of the population would still think of you as less worthy,

Like they don't already...

when you would still be held as slaves. would you still say "democracy, we are the minority, so its our problem?"

No, I would fight for my rights -- just as any other oppressed minority should.

 

[Swift]

its not a matter of opinion. even if its not yet scientifically proven whether its biological or psychological or a mix of both, one thing is for sure, its no choice.

You know, it must be really easy to say, "yeah, this is it. It's the way it is!" With absolutely nothing to back you up. Not even my flawed, fallible, word of God.

 

[vladimir]

Again, prove that gay people are born gay and I'll be right there with you.

why don't you prove to us why gay people choose it!?

i just said:
millions of homosexuals are shocked when they find it out and only wish to be straight. they want to be straight! yet they don't manage to choose becoming straight, they remain homosexual and struggle with it themselves. young homosexuals still struggle that much that the suicide rates within young homosexuals is a few times higher than with straight youths. how can you speak of a choice when so many homosexuals can't even accept it for themselves in the beginning?


apart from that every study shows that it is determined at an age so early that you can't speak of a choice no matter what.

 

[vladimir]

So if I say God exists, even if its not yet scientifically proven, you call me a fundie right? I love how double standards work.

I never gave an opinion as to whether or not homosexuality was a choice. However, just because YOU believe all homosexuals are born that way does not make it fact.

it has nothing to do with what i believe.
i did not even said you thought itwas a choice, i only responded to your thesis that it was a matter of opinion.

if it was a matter of opinion, there should be arguments pro choice and contra choice.
how many arguments pro choice have we seen in this thread? NONE!
how many arguments contra choice have we seen in this thread? a lot!

i am still waiting for swift to come up with some arguments but he has avoided all questions regarding these throughout the last 6 pages. if there is not even a single pro argument, how can it be a matter of opinion?

besides, even if scientists don't know whether it is psychological or biological, they all agree that it is not a choice.

Like they don't already...

which is really sad in my opinion...

No, I would fight for my rights -- just as any other oppressed minority should.

you want equal rights and you deserve them. yet i as a homosexual want equal rights, too. don't i deserve them, too?

why is equal rights for us an infringement on your rights? don't you think a white farmer could have said the same when he was told to let his slaves free?

i have a hard time to udnerstand you, really. because you should know better...

 

[ledhed]

There are no respected scientific studies of any kind kind that claim being gay is a CHOICE .
or would you like a page of about 20000 links to back up that it is not a CHOICE .

 

[Danoff]

Again, prove that gay people are born gay and I'll be right there with you.

It's beside the point. But if it did matter, the burden of proof would be on you - innocent until proven guilty.

 

[Pako]

Legal State Santioned Unions for gays, go for it! What criteria or boundries do we place on these unions or do we leave it open for 'anyone' for any 'situation'?

 

[Carl.]

Geez... this is stilll going on.

However, realize that your getting married is an infringement on rights. If it puts a smile on your face, then I'm happy for you. However, my religion dictates that homosexuality is a sin. Therefore, being FORCED to recognize it legally is an infringement on my rights.

Brian, you got me stumped here.

People acting accordingly to what your religion dictates, is, as far as I'm concerned, nowhere near what defines your rights except if you live in a country ruled by a theocracy.

If not, every woman walking in public areas should have is body covered in order not to "infringe" on orthodox Muslim citizen's rights. (Depressing thought, especially at this time of the year... ), same with eating pork, beef, or working during the Sabbath, and the list goes on.

The one and only valid right that you have related to religion is the freedom to practice whatever religion you choose to, as long as it doesn't infringe on other people rights, and this obviously includes letting whatever religious authority you choose to follow believe out of the legislation process of your country. This is crystal clear in your constitution.

 

[HondaKid86]

Here's what you all don't get. Sin is sin. My sin is AS bad as homosexuality.

All sins are equal, so I'm on par with a murderer. Heard that one before!

 

[Swift]

All sins are equal, so I'm on par with a murderer. Heard that one before!

Yep, in the eyes of God yes. And SO AM I when I sin. so don't think I'm just looking down on you.

 

[HondaKid86]

Case in point: you're nuts.

 

[Ten]

For Swift:

I have little opinion on this subject ...

That is to say, I don't really fall on either side of the issue.

However, I wonder.

Would "gay" people accept a "civil union" with the exact same entitlements as marriage only without the name "marriage"?

Like I said, it doesn't really matter to me.
Just wondered, that's all.

@Kent: To be completely honest, I personally don't care what it's called, so long as it gives me the same benefits/stipulations of a traditional marriage. I understand that the subject of marriage is a largely christian union. However, at the risk of sounding self-hating and stereotypical, you all know how uproarious the gay community can be about trivial things.

@everyone else: Thanks for understanding, and I really do appreciate the replies. Wether you condone homosexuality or not is your decision, and I won't shoot to change that. All I ask is that you respect, or at the very least tolerate my choice, and don't push to have me treated as a lesser member of this country. I'm a human being just like you. There's no reason I don't deserve the same rights.

That statement is the true testiment of your heart's desires and out of everything in this thread I must say, this is surely the most important thing to me (just my opinion of course lol).

God* willing, all people will recognize that you truely want equality and not to simply upset societal norms.

Plus, with an attitude like that people like myself will always support you.

It's when you reject exactly what you want simply because it is not named what you want that people like myself will lose interest in your cause.

Just think of it like this...
A homeless man without shoes who wants nikes shouldn't reject a pair of adidas.

Of course, like I said before, I don't really feel strongly about either side...
So marriage, civil union or pinkie promise friends, it's all the same if the rights are the same. 👍

...and that's all I want. ^^

I really hold a lot of respect for you, Kent. You hit the nail right on the head.

Take away the religion in a legal marraige and what do you have - a 'civil union', right? If it's the same thing with a different name, what's the problem?

Nothing, as far as I;m concerned. "Marriage" is a christian union in the eyes of God. Christianity is apparently anti-gay. Soooooo....

One would assume that "marriage" and "gay" don't logically belong in the same phrase. I'm not out to disrupt or corrupt the traditions of another religion. A civil union, being exactly the same thing as a legally binding marriage, minus all the God and churches, is exactly what I'm shooting for, and I'd be damned content with that.

 

[Carl.]

Those who are arguing that homosexuality is a sin...

Don't you think your life should also be regulated according to Muslims or Jews definition of a sin? According to your principles, what they define as sins should be relevant to the way you choose to live your life.

Or is it that only Christianism matters?

 

[Zrow]

Swift, should people be allowed to follow other religions legally? After all, it's just a choice that they made.

 

[Danoff]

You know you've lost a political argument when you start talking about how something is a sin or something in your religion is wrong - at that point, you've mixed church and state.

However, realize that your getting married is an infringement on rights. If it puts a smile on your face, then I'm happy for you. However, my religion dictates that homosexuality is a sin. Therefore, being FORCED to recognize it legally is an infringement on my rights.

This is absurd. That's like saying you have a right to kill someone and so you being forced not to kill them is an infringement on your rights...

You are not being forced to recognize anything, the state is.

 

[Zrow]

Exactly. Brian, none of your rights are being infringed. I'd ask you to point them out, but you probably wouldn't answer the question.

 

[Famine]

I wouldn't mind an answer here...

I've got to wonder something. Stick with me here.

Ten is a sinner because of where he likes to put his penis. Homosexuality is, apparently a sin, whereas heterosexuality is not. Right?

So what about a guy who likes... ummm... polite, Famine, polite... to sodomise his female partner? He's heterosexual, so not sinning, but is performing an act native to homosexuality.

What IS God's considered opinion on heterosexual buggery?

my religion dictates

Mmmm-hmmmm. Being told precisely what to believe again?

 

[Swift]

Ten, that was nice. But since you do NOT wish to engage in a traditional marriage I simply won't call it that.

Famine, sodomy of any type is considred a Sin by God.

Danoff: Yes we are being forced to recognize something. That a homosexual marriage is the same as a traditional marriage. I'm not trying to hear that myself.

Mmmm-hmmmm. Being told precisely what to believe again?

You know, this is getting really boring. We follow a set of rules and conduct for our lives so we're totally brainwashed and just andriods walking around in human form. While you have no perceived boundaries(except hurting someone I guess) and that's just great. Hmmm...well that sounds extremely weak to me. Having and keeping standards is unpopular right now. Tough, doesn't mean I'm going to pull a John Kerry and flip flop just cause someone doesn't like it.

My faith is based in truth of the word of God and history. YOu can say that Jesus wasn't God. But you can not say that he didn't exist. So, I at least have that going for my faith. What I'm hearing everyone else say is "I just feel like doing this so I should" yeah, great way to run a country.

 

[vladimir]

Danoff: Yes we are being forced to recognize something. That a homosexual marriage is the same as a traditional marriage. I'm not trying to hear that myself.

so call it a non-traditional legal union, give us the same rights, and everything is fine?

 

[Swift]

so call it a non-traditional legal union, give us the same rights, and everything is fine?

Well, no. And you just said the reason why you shouldn't get the same rights. It's not the same thing. If you want to shack up with another guy knock yourself out. But don't call it a marriage like my mother and father have had for 33 years. Because it's not the same.