Gay Marriage

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MrktMkr1986
Keep thinking.
No, you keep thinking.

If government is blind to gay marriage, that means you, Swift, Duke, Ten, HondaKid, Zrow, and I are free.

If government actively restricts gay marriage, that means that Ten and HondaKid are not free.

It's not hard, and Duke has only said it eleventy billion times.
 
XVII
one more time people...the basic christian philosophy for most christians (excluding fanatics...and i think i can say swift and brian are not fanatics...and God help me if im a fanatic)

hate the sin, not the sinner
hate the homosexuality, not the homosexual

I don't see how we can make that ANY clearer.
 
well...if he answers church with state...yer probably gonna bash him about legal rights and etc...if he answers church seperated from state, yer probably gonna deny parts of his christianity if he truly feels church seperated from state
 
Zrow
Swift: how are you on the separation of church and state?

It doesn't exist and is in no legal documents in our federal constitution. So, I don't have a feeling on it.

But as a concept, I think it's ludicrous. Where do we get the morals for our laws, and rules. Just by logic? Then they can change at any moment. If you go by the bible, the morals and rules for right and wrong are laid out quite well.

Seperating morality and government is not a smart thing.
 
Swift
It doesn't exist and is in no legal documents in our federal constitution. So, I don't have a feeling on it.

But as a concept, I think it's ludicrous. Where do we get the morals for our laws, and rules. Just by logic? Then they can change at any moment. If you go by the bible, the morals and rules for right and wrong are laid out quite well.

Seperating morality and government is not a smart thing.

Morality does not equal religion.
 
HondaKid86
I offended you, eh? Well, for what it's worth, it was cheap talk -- I wouldn't let your wife pants me. Boobies kinda freak me out. Aside from that, even if she came back to you and told you that she did a hell of a number on me -- gave me all she had -- and that Mr. Happy didn't even twitch, you probably would STILL believe that being gay was a choice I consciously made.

Ya like this? The vulgar HK? So different from when I was 12, huh, oldbies? Well, the idealist-pacifist in me has died out. You want straight talk from the gay man? You've got it.

Too bad the gay man is not mature enough to rise abut initial emotions and actually reply with substance other then vulgarity.
 
Swift, we've been on a friendly basis since I got to know you at IDM. Your replies to my questions about tire formulas in the GT3 Drift section were what sold me on staying a member at GTP. We even had a little PM heart to heart at IDM when it slipped out that I was gay.

But when it comes to what I believe in, Swift, I hold no alliances. My own FATHER denounces my sexuality, and is greatly shamed by my lifestyle. It's in the heat of such passionate debates that people show their true colors.

I'm sorry, Swift, but you and I are nothing more than casual internet accquantences. When your statements challenge my own, I will rise to meet them with my own. That may or may not be nice or friendly, but that's how I debate.

I never stated you were a homophobe. I'm sorry you got that impression. But I will not "check myself". I cannot.
 
If government is blind to gay marriage, that means you, Swift, Duke, Ten, HondaKid, Zrow, and I are free.

Please remove "you" (in reference to me) from that list.

If government actively restricts gay marriage, that means that Ten and HondaKid are not free.

Can you leave government out of this for once. This discussion has nothing to do with government.
 
Ten
Swift, we've been on a friendly basis since I got to know you at IDM. Your replies to my questions about tire formulas in the GT3 Drift section were what sold me on staying a member at GTP. We even had a little PM heart to heart at IDM when it slipped out that I was gay.

But when it comes to what I believe in, Swift, I hold no alliances. My own FATHER denounces my sexuality, and is greatly shamed by my lifestyle. It's in the heat of such passionate debates that people show their true colors.

I'm sorry, Swift, but you and I are nothing more than casual internet accquantences. When your statements challenge my own, I will rise to meet them with my own. That may or may not be nice or friendly, but that's how I debate.

I never stated you were a homophobe. I'm sorry you got that impression. But I will not "check myself". I cannot.

You know what, I can respect that. I dont' agree. But I respect it. Also, when I said "Check yourself" I meant in reference to the implication that I thought I was God.

Morality does not equal religion.

you couldn't be more right. The morality taught in the bible is universal. And except for a few things like that gay marriage issue, everyone agrees with them.
 
MrktMkr1986
Please remove "you" (in reference to me) from that list.



Can you leave government out of this for once. This discussion has nothing to do with government.


...huh?

We are talking about the government restricting gay marriage.


Anyway, to the question at hand: how does permitting gay marriage limit your freedom? You say it does. I've thought, and thought, and it's not coming to me.
 
Swift
But you do choose to be gay.
In all honesty, can someone please explain the hangup with choosing to be gay or not? Why is it somehow better if it's not a choice, even if it's still unacceptable?
But how can I help you get to heaven if I beat you up? doesn't really work. So, you can stop thinking that now.
A) I didn't think you were a literal fag basher. Although I have never quite understood it, I have seen several other people who I respect say what you're saying about accepting a person without accepting their homosexuality. So I don't truly think your a homophobe in a personal sense of the word.

B) Understand: I DO NOT WANT YOUR HELP TO GET INTO YOUR HEAVEN.
 
Swift
Too bad the gay man is not mature enough to rise abut initial emotions and actually reply with substance other then vulgarity.

Read about 15 or 20 pages back and you'll find the rational arguments you apparently seek.

Today, though, I don't really feel like being civil in the face of blind hate for the umpteenth time. Why get pissed off when I could simply amuse myself instead? Vulgarity may be a little cheap, and no, it's not helping my argument -- but let's be honest. I'm not going to change the mind of someone who believes everyone in America should be forced into living a proper Christian lifestyle to avoid a little fry-in-the-sky-once-you-die (hey, my argument rhymes, too!). Why exert serious effort combating your position if you're never going to change your mind?

I'd much rather use the word "squirt" in four of my posts.
 
MrktMkr1986
Please remove "you" (in reference to me) from that list.
No. You are free to believe what you want to believe.

Can you leave government out of this for once. This discussion has nothing to do with government.
*SLAMS HEAD ON THE TABLE*

This has EVERYTHING to do with government! That's the whole point of this thread!

This thread was not created to discuss whether or not gay marriage is moral, because I don't give a rat's ass if you believe it's moral or not – you have every right to believe what you want to, and I will fight to keep that right for you. Everybody else here would say the same thing, no argument.

This thread was created to discuss whether or not gay marriage should be illegal, which is obviously a function of government (government makes laws, laws determine legality).
 
If you wish to read a nice insert...

Christiananswers.net
As the concept is commonly understood today, the government has never passed a law implementing the "separation of church and state." The First Amendment simply states:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."
Over the years, however, the Supreme Court and lower federal courts have reinterpreted this amendment in many ways. This reinterpretation of the Constitution has in effect become the "law" supposedly dictating the "separation of church and state."
Let's look first at a very brief history of the Courts reasoning and rationale for reinterpretation, and then we'll discuss what the phrase "separation of church and state" means as it is applied in American public policy.
One of the Supreme Court's most blatant violations of the Constitution came about through their reinterpretation of the Bill of Rights - the first ten amendments. Prior to this constitutional violation, the Bill of Rights applied only to the federal government. Notice the actual language of the First Amendment: "Congress shall make no law. . ."
As one of many efforts to limit the power of the federal government, the Constitution left authority over religious matters to the States. The Supreme Court consistently adhered to this constitutional principle until well into the twentieth century.
But in the 1925 ruling, Gitlow v. New York, the Supreme Court began ignoring its predecessors and precedents. The Court reasoned that one of the purposes of the Fourteenth Amendment was to extend the Bill of Rights to the States. (This would obviously expand the powers of the federal courts to a great degree.) The history of the Fourteenth Amendment does not support their contention, nor do the earlier Courts.
Nonetheless, the 1925 Court ignored the historical record and the opinions of their predecessors, establishing a new precedent. Gitlow dealt with freedom of speech and the press; religious matters would soon follow.
In the context of religion, the Court's first and most abusive reinterpretation began in a 1940 Supreme Court ruling, Cantwell v. Connecticut. Here, the Court applied the "free exercise" clause of the First Amendment to the states. Again, religion was a State matter. State courts were, and are, completely capable of handling the issue. Nevertheless, the Supreme Court, in direct opposition to the original intentions of the Constitution, applied yet another portion of the Bill of Rights to the States. They did not stop there.
The next landmark ruling came down in 1947. In the case, Everson v. Board of Education, the Supreme Court applied the "establishment clause" of the First Amendment to the states. In the context of the "separation of church and state," the Court's foundational reinterpretation of the Constitution was complete. From 1947 forward, the Court has ruled with regularity on religious issues, in direct violation of the original meaning of the First Amendment. Their rulings, and those of lower courts (federal and State) have become the "law" of "separation of church and state."
That was a very brief description of how the federal courts have taken authority over religious issues, reinterpreting the First Amendment and applying it to the States by way of the Fourteenth Amendment. All of this was done in clear violation of the actual wording of the Constitution, as well as the intentions of its framers. The modern concept of "separation of church and state" can not be justified using the historical record.
We are forced, however, to work with the existing court doctrines. Therefore, what does the phrase mean today as it is applied in American public policy? The First Amendment, which prohibited any "law respecting the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," has evolved into something entirely new. During the last generation, the courts, at all levels, have ruled in ways that essentially guarantee the freedom from religion, instead of the freedom of religion.

"Separation of church and state," as applied to education, means that a prayer at a graduation ceremony is unconstitutional. It also means that students may not pause for a moment of silence at the beginning of their school day. It means that a nativity scene may not be displayed on public property unless there are other displays (e.g. Santa Clause or Christmas trees) that secularize the presentation.
Today's conception of "separation of church and state" has also been used to remove historic crosses from public property, and religious symbols from city seals. It has been used to remove the Ten Commandments from courtrooms, even though they are carved in stone within the architecture of the Supreme Court building. The concept has been used to prevent religious expressions on personalized license plates. And these are but a few of the official applications of the concept, or "law" of "separation of church and state."
One should understand that "separation of church and state" is not actually a law. It is a doctrine, or a legal concept, that has been implemented by the various courts primarily over the last fifty years. If this concept, as originally understood, would have been applied with consistency over the years, America would certainly be a different country right now. Religious expression would flourish, and the courts would not be micromanaging the religious life of the American people.
The doctrine of "separation of church and state" has been used, and is being used, to effectively purge religion from the public square. The historical perspective on church/state issues reveals a much different story. The government was to accommodate the religious communities; religion and religious expression were to be encouraged.
This is why, for example, the first Congress asked President George Washington to issue a Thanksgiving Proclamation upon completion of the Bill of Rights. Today, that practice would be viewed as unconstitutional. It would violate the "separation of church and state."

Only if you want to...
 
HondaKid86
Read about 15 or 20 pages back and you'll find the rational arguments you apparently seek.

Today, though, I don't really feel like being civil in the face of blind hate for the umpteenth time. Why get pissed off when I could simply amuse myself instead? Vulgarity may be a little cheap, and no, it's not helping my argument -- but let's be honest. I'm not going to change the mind of someone who believes everyone in America should be forced into living a proper Christian lifestyle to avoid a little fry-in-the-sky-once-you-die (hey, my argument rhymes, too!). Why exert serious effort combating your position if you're never going to change your mind?

I'd much rather use the word "squirt" in four of my posts.

Wow, what masterful skills of the english language. And for the umpteenth time, I don't hate you. MAn, and you say we're thick.

Duke, if I saw you driving towards a cliff, and you didn't or couldn't see it. I'd do everything I could to keep you from falling off that cliff. I'd do my best to SAVE you. Whether you wanted it or not. Now, after I help you, if you except the salvation is totally up to you.

Oh yeah, about the choice. Obviously, if you're born gay then it wouldn't be a sin because you wouldn't be able to help it.
 
HondaKid86
Squirt.


I mean, I really have nothing else to say to you. You are amazingly dense.

And you have an exceptionally limited vocabulary :dunce:

This is so funny. I don't like what you're doing so I'm dence. Get over yourself.
 
That's well and good for ending your life. But when I die, I'll be dead. I don't need your help once they put me in the ground.

Thanks, but no thanks.
 
Brian
XVII
one more time people...the basic christian philosophy for most christians (excluding fanatics...and i think i can say swift and brian are not fanatics...and God help me if im a fanatic)

hate the sin, not the sinner
hate the homosexuality, not the homosexual

I don't see how we can make that ANY clearer.
It's not clear in any way. Try saying what you really mean:

hate the sin, regulate the sinner
hate the homosexuality, oppress the homosexual

And I still have yet to see any of you address my extremely clear, concise post contrasting the two different moral viewpoints.
 
Hey Swift, heads up: restricting marriage for gays isn't going to turn anyone straight.
 
Swift
And you have an exceptionally limited vocabulary :dunce:

Perhaps my linguistic agility is wasted on a person like you. Maybe I'm an honors student with a double-major in English and Journalism. In fact, I could very well be a lot more intelligent than you. (Forgive me for venturing a guess, but I'm going to go ahead and put the chips down in my favor.)

Whatever the case might be, I'm overjoyed that I don't have your approval. If I did, I'd have a wealth of problems that even the most beautifully crafted sentences could not mask.
 
Swift seems to think differently, but Brian apparently doesn't give a crap whether restricting gays turns them straight or not, as long as it means he doesn't have to have them pissing on his lawn and ruining perfectly good Fourth of July parades.

[edit] @ Swift: In all sincerity, I appreciate your concern. Say you stop my car and tell me you think I'm about to drive off a cliff.

I say, "Yep! Maybe I am; I don't think so. But I know what I'm doing and I want to do it."

So now what? Are you going to pass a law saying I can't drive off the cliff? Are you going to call the police to arrest me? Are you going to physically drag me from the car to stop me from doing it?
 
Swift
And I said that where?


It was a response to your "cliff" analogy. Homosexuals who don't marry will still stay homosexuals. Banning gay marriage isn't going to make anyone "stop the car".
 
Sage
No. You are free to believe what you want to believe.

I gave you the same courtesy and now you won't return the favor. I'll remember that.


This has EVERYTHING to do with government! That's the whole point of this thread!

I know what the point of the thread is, Sage.

This thread was not created to discuss whether or not gay marriage is moral, because I don't give a rat's ass if you believe it's moral or not – you have every right to believe what you want to, and I will fight to keep that right for you. Everybody else here would say the same thing, no argument.

Yeah, but right now, you're doing the exact opposite.

This thread was created to discuss whether or not gay marriage should be illegal, which is obviously a function of government (government makes laws, laws determine legality).

OK, you want my opinion on government intervention. I could care less. If the government caves in and says legalize gay marriage let them... if they say it should remain illegal, I still don't care. However, if gay marriage were to be legalize, that would be an infringement on my rights.

Duke
Brian apparently doesn't give a crap whether restricting gays turns them straight or not, as long as it means he doesn't have to have them pissing on his lawn and ruining perfectly good Fourth of July parades.

I should forward that to my gay friends when I see them tomorrow. 👍 Should give them a good laugh.
 
MrktMkr1986
However, if gay marriage were to be legalize, that would be an infringement on my rights.

You're avoiding the hell out of this question. How?
 
MrktMkr1986
However, if gay marriage were to be legalize, that would be an infringement on my rights.

Just curious, gang... was I the only one that actually gasped at the sheer banality of this sentence?

I mean, was I the only one out there that involuntarily banged his head upon his desk?
 
HondaKid86
Just curious, gang... was I the only one that actually gasped at the sheer banality of this sentence?

I mean, was I the only one out there that involuntarily banged his head upon his desk?
*raises his hand while bandaging his lumpy head*
 
MrktMkr1986
I gave you the same courtesy and now you won't return the favor. I'll remember that.

Yeah, but right now, you're doing the exact opposite.

However, if gay marriage were to be legalize, that would be an infringement on my rights.
You live in an utter and total dream world, where you take everything that applies to you, and project it onto everyone who dares to disagree with you.

And yet again you refuse to respond to 17 crystal clear words that describe precisely why we're right and you're wrong. And yet again you claim that we are the ones ignoring things.

Brian, you've got a hell of a career in politics awaiting you. Unfortunately.

I'm flabbergasted. I should have been in bed two hours ago, but this is like a train wreck.
 
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