Gay Marriage

[milefile]

Just this week in Phoenix a couple were arrested for child abuse. They kept their kid in a closet for months on end, wallowing in his own feces and starving. Hm. I wonder if either of them are gay?

 

[Flerbizky]

You DID notice my irony didn't you ?....

 

[Flerbizky]

Originally posted by milefile
Just this week in Phoenix a couple were arrested for child abuse. They kept their kid in a closet for months on end, wallowing in his own feces and starving. Hm. I wonder if either of them are gay?

Ohh.. They're both gay 👍

 

[rjensen11]

Originally posted by danoff
...and rj has breached the issue of children.

It gets worse rj if you look into it further. The core of the problem is here:

People argue that homosexual couples would not be able to provide the right kind of enviornment for a child, so they should not be allowed to adopt. At at the minimum, they should be put at the back of the line to adopt.

My answer to that is - if that is the case, then single people trying to adopt should be put at the back of the line for adoption (or be kept from adopting) as well.

It would only be the fair thing to do.

Adoption, yes. Let me bring up another situation to help sort this out, or maybe complicate things some more:

I think that it would be very wrong to have Social Services take a child away if a child that has a parent that either died or divorced, and the parent that the child resides with later goes into a homosexual relationship. It would be like, as pointed above by danoff, where a child is removed from his or her family just because one of his parents died(and no possibilty of the remaining parent remarrying because s/he will always have loyalty to their first spouse) and s/he lacks having a male parent and a female parent.

 

[Pako]

Here's a blunt, in your face, solution. If gay people would quite being gay, and join the majority of society, we could close the books on this argument. Millions if not billions of dollars could be redirected towards other causes that are much more worthy of attention.

These people have a choice, everything in life is a choice, choose wisely.

Like I stated before, my niece has a 'special' friend and has been with this person for three years now. I love her dearly and hope the best for her, but I DO NOT support or condone her choice of lifestyle. She is very quite about her sexual orientation, and doesn't expect society to change just for her. She understands what she's up against choosing this lifestyle and she's living it.

A non-religious person can see no value in sactifying your marriage under God, and thus holds greater value then what can be placed on your own accord.

For the atheist's of this world, allowing same-sex marriages allows for one more [x] agianst God and agianst Christ's teachings and in some way gives you satisfaction. This is of course a guess on my part, and I'll leave further assumptions aside.

From a atheistic point of view, if evolution intended for same-sex relations, our race would have common genitalia, and reproduction could be made from any pair. There would be only one gender, but this isn't the ccase is it? Can a Mother and a Daughter marry eachother? Can a Father and a Son marry eachother? Can two brothers marry eachother? How about two sisters? I would hope you would say NO to all those examples. I hope you would say it's not natural, and that it's just wrong. So I ask you, where does it end? How far are we we, as a society, willing to push that moral line in the name of freedom? The moral freedom of my family and of my children and my children's children become further in jepordy each time that line moves. Each time someone fights for their rights for society to be forced to accept and acknowlege their perversions for their own gain, jeberdises my moral freedom. You can argue that social diversity of same sex marriages in our culture is a heathy evolutionary process within our culture and promotes good health and good growth both socially and culturally. I will blatently tell you that would have some pretty obscure ideals, and should really consider re-thinking this thing through. Consider the continued affect of such moral decline within our society. Follow it through and consider the long term affects of what is being called 'open minded thinking'. What is being promoted here is not Freedom, but anarchy and chaos, as open ended society where there are no consiquences for your actions, no regard for the sanctity of the human body, mind, and spirit. We will become a flesh frenzy immoral lifeforms with a single goal of self satisfaction achieved at what ever cost. I'm afraid that this is not a society that I want to be a part of nor would I want my children to be subjected to.

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by Pako
Here's a blunt, in your face, solution. If gay people would quite being gay, and join the majority of society, we could close the books on this argument. Millions if not billions of dollars could be redirected towards other causes that are much more worthy of attention.



Like I stated before, my niece has a 'special' friend and has been with this person for three years now. I love her dearly and hope the best for her, but I DO NOT support or condone her choice of lifestyle. She is very quite about her sexual orientation, and doesn't expect society to change just for her. She understands what she's up against choosing this lifestyle and she's living it.

A non-religious person can see no value in sactifying your marriage under God, and thus holds greater value then what can be placed on your own accord.

For the atheist's of this world, allowing same-sex marriages allows for one more [x] agianst God and agianst Christ's teachings and in some way gives you satisfaction. This is of course a guess on my part, and I'll leave further assumptions aside.

From a atheistic point of view, if evolution intended for same-sex relations, our race would have common genitalia, and reproduction could be made from any pair. There would be only one gender, but this isn't the ccase is it? Can a Mother and a Daughter marry eachother? Can a Father and a Son marry eachother? Can two brothers marry eachother? How about two sisters? I would hope you would say NO to all those examples. I hope you would say it's not natural, and that it's just wrong. So I ask you, where does it end? How far are we we, as a society, willing to push that moral line in the name of freedom? The moral freedom of my family and of my children and my children's children become further in jepordy each time that line moves. Each time someone fights for their rights for society to be forced to accept and acknowlege their perversions for their own gain, jeberdises my moral freedom. You can argue that social diversity of same sex marriages in our culture is a heathy evolutionary process within our culture and promotes good health and good growth both socially and culturally. I will blatently tell you that would have some pretty obscure ideals, and should really consider re-thinking this thing through. Consider the continued affect of such moral decline within our society. Follow it through and consider the long term affects of what is being called 'open minded thinking'. What is being promoted here is not Freedom, but anarchy and chaos, as open ended society where there are no consiquences for your actions, no regard for the sanctity of the human body, mind, and spirit. We will become a flesh frenzy immoral lifeforms with a single goal of self satisfaction achieved at what ever cost. I'm afraid that this is not a society that I want to be a part of nor would I want my children to be subjected to.

First you say: "These people have a choice, everything in life is a choice, choose wisely."

Then you say: "How far are we we, as a society, willing to push that moral line in the name of freedom? The moral freedom of my family and of my children and my children's children become further in jepordy each time that line moves."

So your children and your children's children do not have a choice? Or might not have a choice? How is this possible? Wouldn't it just be easier to raise your children the way you see fit and allow them to choose, just like "these people". Do you doubt your ability to instili the values you wish them to have? You speak of "these people" as if they are a disease, as if their spread must be stopped, legislation is the treatment, and failing to do so will result in the gayification of America. That's absurd. You tout choice but obviously don't believe in it.

You want your morality imposed on everybody, by the government, so you don't have to think about something that you don't like and so you won't ever have to teach your children, and your children's children, about choice.

This is how Crhristianity consumes itself in contradiction.

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by Pako
Here's a blunt, in your face, solution. If gay people would quite being gay, and join the majority of society, we could close the books on this argument. Millions if not billions of dollars could be redirected towards other causes that are much more worthy of attention.

Pako, I respect you and think you're an asset to this forum, but I'm your exact opposite in this thread.

Perhaps there's no gay 'gene,' but do you honestly think that somebody would walk into a situation where they're going to be abused by many straight, homophobic people just for acceptance?

My theory is that it's in how you're raised. No two people are alike, and a lot of that has to do with your family and your formative life. Milefile and you grew up differently, obviously, and are now at opposite political ends. Maybe it's similar for gays.

For the atheist's of this world, allowing same-sex marriages allows for one more [x] agianst God and agianst Christ's teachings and in some way gives you satisfaction. This is of course a guess on my part, and I'll leave further assumptions aside.

Again: Why not let God simply deal with it when judgement day comes for gays?

 

[Pako]

Originally posted by milefile
First you say: "These people have a choice, everything in life is a choice, choose wisely."

Then you say: "How far are we we, as a society, willing to push that moral line in the name of freedom? The moral freedom of my family and of my children and my children's children become further in jepordy each time that line moves."

So your children and your children's children do not have a choice? Or might not have a choice? How is this possible? Wouldn't it just be easier to raise your children the way you see fit and allow them to choose, just like "these people". Do you doubt your ability to instili the values you wish them to have? You speak of "these people" as if they are a disease, as if their spread must be stopped, legislation is the treatment, and failing to do so will result in the gayification of America. That's absurd. You tout choice but obviously don't believe in it.

You want your morality imposed on everybody, by the government, so you don't have to think about something that you don't like and so you [\i]won't ever have to teach your children, and your children's children, about choice.

This is how Crhristianity consumes itself in contradiction.

Come on now, being in jepordy does not mean not having a choice. What it means is that outside influences become more consentrated, making the right choice harder to see, which is already evident from your postings in this thread.

It is not Christianity that's consuming itself in contradiction, but rather distorted'open mindedness' that consumes itself through it's own contradictions.

 

[Pako]

Originally posted by M5Power




Pako, I respect you and think you're an asset to this forum, but I'm your exact opposite in this thread.

Perhaps there's no gay 'gene,' but do you honestly think that somebody would walk into a situation where they're going to be abused by many straight, homophobic people just for acceptance?

My theory is that it's in how you're raised. No two people are alike, and a lot of that has to do with your family and your formative life. Milefile and you grew up differently, obviously, and are now at opposite political ends. Maybe it's similar for gays.



Again: Why not let God simply deal with it when judgement day comes for gays? [/B]

Your right, I should probably leave well enough alone. I hope I have atleast provided some thought provoking arguments. I guess the main reason why I even get into these obviously dead end conversations is because I do 'care' for people and only want the best for them. Again this is based on my belief system. I am not forcing any belief system on anyone, but mearly trying to educate and convey the importance of morality in our society today. I believe that it is very important for our livelyhood and for our ultimate happiness. This is something that we have today, and it's something that I don't want to lose.

Thanks for keeping a level head during these discussion, and if I've flown off the handle, it's because I'm medicated at the moment. (cold medicine is kickin' my arse)

I think your absolutely correct in many of your points M5Power.

Keep on keepin' on.

~Peace

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by Pako
Your right, I should probably leave well enough alone. I hope I have atleast provided some thought provoking arguments. I guess the main reason why I even get into these obviously dead end conversations is because I do 'care' for people and only want the best for them. Again this is based on my belief system. I am not forcing any belief system on anyone, but mearly trying to educate and convey the importance of morality in our society today. I believe that it is very important for our livelyhood and for our ultimate happiness. This is something that we have today, and it's something that I don't want to lose.

Thanks for keeping a level head during these discussion, and if I've flown off the handle, it's because I'm medicated at the moment. (cold medicine is kickin' my arse)

I think your absolutely correct in many of your points M5Power.

Keep on keepin' on.

~Peace

👍

Oh, and, I'm medicated at the moment, too! So we've got something in common. I'm sure it's not the only thing, though...

 

[DGB454]

-

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by DGB454

When I say non-Christian I am referring to anyone who doesn’t fit the description above.

Eric, he's lumping us with Satan!

Suddenly we are pious or pinched faced churchgoers or some other name you can come up with.

He's got quite a few, too. Everytime I think there's none left, he comes up with something like 'pinch-faced.'

I see myself in a higher position than a non-Christian.

Like me, Eric, or Satan?

without resorting to name-calling.

But you've got to call the pinch-faced churchgoers something!

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by Pako
Come on now, being in jepordy does not mean not having a choice.

How do gay people put anyone in jeopardy? The only thing in society that makes me feel jeopardized is government intrusion into individual's lives by moral coersion.

You really do think gayness is somehow contagious. It's incredible. Why was I never inclined to be gay having lived near and worked with them? Why did I never feel threatened or jeopardized? Why did many of them like socializing with my girlfriend and I? Why was there a lesbian couple shedding tears of joy at my wedding?

What it means is that outside influences become more consentrated, making the right choice harder to see, which is already evident from your postings in this thread.

This means that you think that your preferences are the right choice, and further, you demand, with religious zeal, that the government engineer society so that everybody, everywhere, lives as you see fit. How presumptuous. You desire a homogeneous society and fear diversity. You justify it by citing the inability of poeple to evaluate and choose for themselves. I have more faith in my family and myself than that and wonder why you don't.

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by DGB454
This may or may not fit this subject exactly but it pertains to all the subjects of late that are aimed at Christian beliefs.
Sorry if it's too long.


Let’s see if I can explain this without offending anyone and doing it as simple as possible so everyone can understand.

When I say Christian I am referring to those that not only believe in Christ (Satan believes in Christ too.) but also those who follow in his teaching and guidance.

When I say non-Christian I am referring to anyone who doesn’t fit the description above.

You are asking Christians to put forth their arguments for why we believe a certain way as it pertains to a certain subject or to justify the way we believe as it pertains to a certain subject. Yet you won’t accept it when we try to explain it as we believe it because it is based on either Biblical principals or on the leading of Christ. Suddenly we are pious or pinched faced churchgoers or some other name you can come up with.

Try and understand that this is the way we believe and this is our truth whether or not it’s non-Christians truth. We try and base our answers on what we see as our truth. We aren’t always right in our own interpretation of our truth but that doesn’t mean it’s not the way we believe at the moment. (We are evolving in Christ.) We see ourselves as trying to obtain what we see as perfection (Christ) but understand it is unobtainable in our lifetime. If you are under the impression that Christians look down on non-Christians then I for one don’t. I see us as all equal with different beliefs. Do we see everyone as equal in our position as far as Christ goes? No. I see people like John, Peter…etc as higher in position than myself and I see myself in a higher position than a non-Christian. So do I think I’m better? I hope not. That person who is a non-Christian can easily convert and become in a higher position than me by getting to know Christ better than I do. It’s not a race though unless you think of it as a race against yourself and your shortcomings. A true Christian will celebrate someone’s conversion rather than see him as an opponent.

When I choose not to argue a point any longer then it’s because I see no point in putting forth my truth to someone who wont accept it as such. I could qoute parables in the Bible about pearls to a sow or seeds on rock but it would pointless. You would see me as pious or foolish because you don’t accept what we see as our truth.

I try to understand that you are seeing things from a different vantage point than I am and I may not always explain what I believe as good as I should. I can try and see things from your perspective but it’s not always that easy. I hope you would offer me the same courtesy without resorting to name-calling. To me that seems very childish and isn’t worth the response.

Again, if I offended anyone I apologize. It wasn’t intentional.

DGB, I don't hate Christians or religion. What I hate is when Christianity becomes a political movement. Our government is supposed to open up a space for Christianity to exist freely. It is also supposed to open up that same space for any other group, person, or idea to exist, enjoying the same freedom. Christianity becomes a problem when it insists that anything that it doesn't approve of be punished, eradicated, or ostracized, when it can't mind it's own business. I don't see gay people demanding that everybody has to be gay. I don't see atheists demanding that everybody renounce god. But I do see Christians demanding that everybody be like them. This is the point at which it becomes a destructive force.

 

[Red Eye Racer]

Originally posted by milefile
DGB, I don't hate Christians or religion. What I hate is when Christianity becomes a political movement. Our government is supposed to open up a space for Christianity to exist freely. It is also supposed to open up that same space for any other group, person, or idea to exist, enjoying the same freedom. Christianity becomes a problem when it insists that anything that it doesn't approve of be punished, eradicated, or ostracized, when it can't mind it's own business. I don't see gay people demanding that everybody has to be gay. I don't see atheists demanding that everybody renounce god. But I do see Christians demanding that everybody be like them. This is the point at which it becomes a destructive force.

That is an extremely well put and politically correct statement. I couldn't possibly agree more.

 

[Flerbizky]

Originally posted by Pako
Here's a blunt, in your face, solution. If gay people would quite being gay,

And if all the sick people would just quit being sick it would save society a trillion billion dollars in medical bills... (ohh.. And what if the needy would just stop being needy.. As long as they're alive they don't actually need anything...)

and join the majority of society, we could close the books on this argument.

So now it is something they choose ?... I know enough gay people to know it is NOT something you choose. The **** they've had to go through while being teenagers. I wouldn't wish that upon my worst enemy...

Millions if not billions of dollars could be redirected towards other causes that are much more worthy of attention.

These people have a choice, everything in life is a choice, choose wisely.

Sure they do..... Excuse me while I again...

Like I stated before, my niece has a 'special' friend and has been with this person for three years now. I love her dearly and hope the best for her,

So your niece is a lesbian.. So what ?

but I DO NOT support or condone her choice of lifestyle.

Why not ?.. She's your blood and you won't support her ?.. I don't know who to pity the most.. You or your cousin....

 

[DGB454]

-

 

[DGB454]

-

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by DGB454
Thank you for supporting my arguement.

I don't support it, but I understand you believe what you're saying and that's all that really matters when the topic is religion. Plus, milefile can come back if he wants, your comments weren't really directed at me.

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by DGB454
Why shouldn't Christians use their influence to have the government go their way? Gay people do it. Minorities do it. Atheist do it. If you are a group and don't try and influence the Gov't then you are missing a huge oppurtunity to change things in your favor. We just happen to be better at it so far.

I have never demanded anyone to be Christian. I hope they do but I can't demand it. It's a choice.

You just demand that they act like Christians, and that's not a choice.

Gay people need to do it. So do minorities. Atheists are stupid and should shut up.

Christianity doesn't need to and has all the freedom in the world to exist. Why must it insist on imposing it's rules on everybody in the form of laws enforced by the state? How do Christians benefit from this? How does god benefit?

 

[milefile]

Also, what is it about gays having rights that effects Christianity at all? You want to limit gays freedom by depriving them of the benefits of society. How do gay people fighting for rights limit Christians' freedom? Again, what does Christianity stand to gain from imposing itself on people who aren't interested? It starts to look like bad.

Please don't answer with a question. Just answer, then ask a question.

 

[DGB454]

-

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by DGB454
Gay people are already starting to do it. Minorities have been doing it since the 50's.

How do Christians benifit from it? How does anybody benifit from a society that more resembles what they believe? It makes if more comfortable to live in. I'm sure there are more benifits but that's all I can think of at the moment.

That's not a good enough reason because its entirely possible without imposing anything on anybody, solely by individual choice. It seems to me that it boils down to the feeling of power. It is not enough that Christianity be your religion and way of life. You want it to, at least appear, to be everybody's. Of course all this does is diminish Christianity, make it less special. If it's not chosen from a constelation of possible ways to live, but rather, jammed down your throat by the government, it becomes state propaganda. Christians don't see that their insistence that everybody be like them only serves to cheapen their cause. It means that they truly believe that without government support, their religion will evaporate, that nobody will choose it on their own. What a lack of faith. Again, it comsumes itself in contradiction.

The benefit, people and their little lives being more aesthetically pleasant, is so insignificant. It's like your talkng about a sign ordinance.

 

[Sage]

Originally posted by milefile
Atheists are stupid and should shut up.

Um...?

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by Sage
Um...?

Yep. They are the most annoying theists of all, and run crying to the government more than anybody.

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by Sage
Um...?

He's on a tangent. The best thing to do would be to let him alone.

I don't know where he works or what he does, but he certainly doesn't do a lot of it.

 

[DGB454]

-

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by DGB454

Most of the laws are to preserve common decency and keep order.

Surely you understand the difference between, say, a blue law or a gay marriage law, which could be only explained as being modeled after Christian beliefs, and laws to protect or support the public's interest as a whole.

If the gay people want to change the law to let them get married then they should try. Keep in mind that Christians do not believe in same sex unions and will probably vote against it. If you are anti guns and try to get a gun law passed or pro drugs and try to get drugs legalized then aren't you doing the same thing? Trying to shove your beliefs down our throats?

The free society allows for that process, but it also calls for freedom of religion. Why can I not marry milefile? Just because the Christians don't like it? How come I can't drink at a bar with milefile on Sunday? My religion permits me to do these things, I don't care what Christianity says on the topic.

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by DGB454
You mean laws about no gay marraiges?
There are also laws about spitting on a sidewalk and sex in public.
Most of the laws are to preserve common decency and keep order.
If the gay people want to change the law to let them get married then they should try. Keep in mind that Christians do not believe in same sex unions and will probably vote against it. If you are anti guns and try to get a gun law passed or pro drugs and try to get drugs legalized then aren't you doing the same thing? Trying to shove your beliefs down our throats?

No. Not at all. It doesn't restict your freedom in any way. Gay people marrying doesn't limit your freedom at all. And the accessorial examples you provided are not similar enough to really be applicable. Gays and guns. Sounds like a porno.

We have the right to vote and influence how we want.

Exactly.

 

[milefile]

Imagine if all the gays in the country started an initiative to ban church. All those people singing and kneeling really offends them and they would be more comfortable if you all stopped it. Stupid. And it doesn't happen. Why? Becasue Christians are the only ones who insist that all lives be coerced to fit their moral model. All sexual morality (except obviously criminal (hurts others) sexuality) is personal choice and no place for the state.