Gen 5 Dodge Viper

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I can't help but ask what is driving the sales so low. What is it that they are doing that isn't making them sale like the Corvette C7 likely will?
 
I can't help but ask what is driving the sales so low. What is it that they are doing that isn't making them sale like the Corvette C7 likely will?

Nothing.

Or more accurately, they've done nothing to expand the brand, to develop different submodels to appeal to different levels of customer or to really differentiate the current SRT Viper from the previous Viper.

Chevrolet sells good Corvettes, better Corvettes, best Corvettes and hardcore Corvettes, all available with multiple options levels that allow you to spec either a "lowly" automatic-equipped 450 hp boulevard cruiser or, eventually, a 600+ hp supercharged bat-out-of-hell with a teeth-rattling ride and the ability to cut race-car like lap times around the track.

SRT offers you either the hardcore Viper or the less-hardcore Viper. Both of which post performance times and lap numbers within a gnat's hair of each other. All starting at a base price 50% higher than the basic Vette.

Viper needs a V8. And maybe a turbo-six. Chrysler has likely shot itself in the foot creating a brand based around a single model with a single engine and transmission choice and a few options. If they'd worked seriously on creating a junior Viper years ago, or even a *gasp* automatic-transmission variant, they wouldn't be in this situation.
 
SRT offers you either the hardcore Viper or the less-hardcore Viper. Both of which post performance times and lap numbers within a gnat's hair of each other. All starting at a base price 50% higher than the basic Vette.

Viper needs a V8. And maybe a turbo-six. Chrysler has likely shot itself in the foot creating a brand based around a single model with a single engine and transmission choice and a few options. If they'd worked seriously on creating a junior Viper years ago, or even a *gasp* automatic-transmission variant, they wouldn't be in this situation.

Not just that, you've got to have balls to swing that thing around the track. To paraphrase something I read on Jalopnik earlier today, the new Viper might have traction control and stability control, but it's the bare minimum of both, and it's damn scary on a track, let alone on the road. Sure, the Viper can be driven at 2/10ths just as easily as the Corvette, but it won't be as comfortable, it won't be as civilized, and it sure as hell won't be as cheap as that Vette. More or less, the appeal of the Corvette is six times as broad as the Viper, they launched at nearly the same time, of course they aren't selling.

Thing is, Fiat-Chrysler could do exactly what they did in the '90s and shoot the Viper clear above the Corvette. They should be making it personal against the Ferrari F12, the Porsche 911 Turbo, the Audi R8 V10+, and so on and so on. Don't even mention the Corvette until the Z06 shows up. When you're clearing $100k+ to start, a $50k sports coupe with a truck engine under the hood shouldn't even be thought of.

The Viper folks would howl if they "watered it down," but it's long past due. A proper sports coupe with the 6.4L V8 would be more than enough to keep people happy, it'd be a good competitor to the Corvette, and it would keep that plant in Detroit churning. I can't imagine it'd be that hard to retrofit, right? Chrysler?
 
Not just that, you've got to have balls to swing that thing around the track. To paraphrase something I read on Jalopnik earlier today, the new Viper might have traction control and stability control, but it's the bare minimum of both, and it's damn scary on a track, let alone on the road.

Oh, so that is why it is not selling...it's an actual drivers car! Too bad nobody wants to put out any effort these days, they want instant gratification via the "easy button". Somehow this doesn't surprise me :indiff:
 
Oh, so that is why it is not selling...it's an actual drivers car! Too bad nobody wants to put out any effort these days, they want instant gratification via the "easy button". Somehow this doesn't surprise me :indiff:
I maintain that the people who really want Vipers will buy older, more hardcore ones. The new ones are too soft and expensive for Viper fans, and still way to unrefined for most people. There's a huge difference between being very unrefined and being a driver's car. Shall I refer you to the fact that the Viper finished 12 out of 12 in Motor Trend's Best Driver's car feature, behind a Bentley, no less?
 
The fact that it finished behind a Focus ST should tell you all you need to know about the morons at Motortrend. I guess it all depends on how one defines a drivers car. For me, it means a car without all the electronic gadgets and assists built into newer cars. You know, a car that the driver actually has to drive. I do agree though, the older models were even more "un-refined", even more a drivers car in my opinion. Of course, I grew up racing old 60's and 70's sports cars and muscle cars so that is where my view on what a "drivers car" is comes from :)
 
@MustangManiac Fair enough. I think of a driver's car as having refined and balanced handling, but everyone has a different definition for it. I guess if I grew up driving cars from the 60s and 70s I'd feel the same way.
 
I guess a 'drivers car' can be defined by something that keeps rewarding the driver the harder it's pushed. That reward might be either handling that stays predictable as you push the envelope or it might be something that's just plain scary on the limit. The spec of the car doesn't even come into it. You could have a light, sparse, low powered but cheap car, or a expensive premium-brand car with-all-the-toys and excessive power - or many of the levels in between. The modern Viper seems to have the wrong combination of these elements for the market it's aimed at.

Lotus, Caterham etc can get away with spartan low power thrills because they have fine handling and are cheap.

Ferrari and Porsche can do sparten with high power and a big price tag because they handle and they're established premium brands.

AMG or MPower can do well equipped, expensive cars that rely a little on electronic wizardry because they have millions spent on chassis development too and are also quite premium brands.

The Corvette probably falls somewhere between all of these.

The Viper is too expensive but non-premium to be able to get away with sparten and basic. It also fails in being much of a handler, by all accounts. It's probably closest to a TVR in its showy looks and power in excess, but fairly scary at the same time. TVR could get away with that because they were relatively cheap. Cheap enough to be a second car that doesn't need all the bells and whistles of a daily driver. The Viper doesn't have this going for it. It's probably no coincidence that TVR folded at the same time they were trying to push themselves up market.
 
A "driver's car" is a car that rewards delicate driving with exquisite feedback and balanced poise.

According to Motor Trend, SRT sent them a car on mismatched tires with a lot of odd mechanical issues. There's no way that's going to be fun to drive. If SRT couldn't be bothered to send a properly sorted car (or at least one on matching tires), then they can't expect the magazine to give it a good score.
 
A "driver's car" is a car that rewards delicate driving with exquisite feedback and balanced poise.

According to Motor Trend, SRT sent them a car on mismatched tires with a lot of odd mechanical issues. There's no way that's going to be fun to drive. If SRT couldn't be bothered to send a properly sorted car (or at least one on matching tires), then they can't expect the magazine to give it a good score.
Can you imagine the shape these review cars end up being in. I mean, what would you do if someone gave you a $150K supercar for free for a week or two :D You are right though, SRT should go through the car with a fine tooth comb before sending it on to the next review. I am surprised that they don't have at least a small team with truck, parts, spares etc, travelling around with the car to keep it in good shape and keep an eye on the reviewers.
 
I'd take care of it as if it were my newborn child.

Your reputation as a car reviewer relies on not stuffing a car into a hedge or wrecking it completely. It boggles the mind how some of the spoiled arses in the US get away with it, but down here, you get on one manufacturer's crap list, word spreads pretty quickly.

Pretty soon, you're regurgitating press releases from behind a desk while the guy sitting next to you is getting sent keys to the newest Porsche for a relaxing weekend drive.
 
I maintain that the people who really want Vipers will buy older, more hardcore ones.
Maybe. I'm one of those people wanting a Viper, and the new Viper has some good things going for it. It's not really less hardcore (barring the ACR, but that's a special model), but a lot of what was added is a complete waste of time and money that adds no value to the car. I also hate used cars (but that's just me).

At the same time, while the Corvette is tempting I don't see it as an overly huge threat. The base Vette is just that and doesn't really compete, though I did see some interesting test numbers putting the two closer than you would expect when it comes to cornering which is where the Viper should come ahead. I don't see why Chrysler wouldn't be able to fix this. The near draw with the old ZR1 in testing was disappointing and the new Z06 is probably going to crush the Viper, but the C6 Z06 was already initially faster and there were hints of a Viper ACR version that sadly may be in trouble now.

What Chrysler should have done was make the Viper a Viper. Strip it out, having it undercut everything in terms of weight, or at least be on the lighter end of the scale like the C6 Z06 was.

Viper finished 12 out of 12 in Motor Trend's Best Driver's car feature, behind a Bentley, no less?
That wasn't really representative and I'm not all that interested in their ranking after their review of the Aventador which also went to last place for being too rough or something.
 
That wasn't really representative and I'm not all that interested in their ranking after their review of the Aventador which also went to last place for being too rough or something.
I actually think that test is a really good indication of how a car drives. The Aventador is insanely fun, but it's not really a driver's car in that it's not a precise tool which does whatever the driver wants while still being fun and exciting to drive. If you can get past the odd criteria, it's a very fresh look at sports cars.
 
The Problem is the Dealers. THey have them as "Attractions". Roped off to the public. Potential Buyers cant even Touch the car.

A Lower end Viper would work but it will not work with a V8( no avaliable V8 can fit in the Viper anyway)... a Detuned V10 would work with about 490hp, Rear exit exhaust, Narrower rear tires and a Automatic could will help the most.h
 
I actually think that test is a really good indication of how a car drives. The Aventador is insanely fun, but it's not really a driver's car in that it's not a precise tool which does whatever the driver wants while still being fun and exciting to drive. If you can get past the odd criteria, it's a very fresh look at sports cars.
Yes, the tests are informative to an extent, but I think a bit too dismissive or rigid or the make cars like the Viper*/Aventador sound so subpar. They might not be scalpels, but I doubt that diminishes the fun factor to unacceptable levels.

*unless the car given was made of garbage cans

The Problem is the Dealers. THey have them as "Attractions". Roped off to the public. Potential Buyers cant even Touch the car.

A Lower end Viper would work but it will not work with a V8( no avaliable V8 can fit in the Viper anyway)... a Detuned V10 would work with about 490hp, Rear exit exhaust, Narrower rear tires and a Automatic could will help the most.h

Or even try the Firepower again (just call it something different). I still feel that the SRT brand is completely pointless and silly, but now that there is a dedicated performance unit, where are all the sporty concept cars from the last 10+ years?
 
I'd take care of it as if it were my newborn child.

Your reputation as a car reviewer relies on not stuffing a car into a hedge or wrecking it completely. It boggles the mind how some of the spoiled arses in the US get away with it, but down here, you get on one manufacturer's crap list, word spreads pretty quickly.

Pretty soon, you're regurgitating press releases from behind a desk while the guy sitting next to you is getting sent keys to the newest Porsche for a relaxing weekend drive.

Lol, happened with one of the guys in the magazine. Went to the freaking Nurburgring to test out the just-released Audi R8. And what does he do? Turns traction control off and goes for it. In the wet. He didn't make it past the first corner without spinning and destroying half the car. In the video you can hear how he screams "NNNNNNOOOOOOOO!!!!" in a sort of desperate-Darth-Vader style out of frustration. Within a month he was gone. I think he's working in something about sports now. But in the car industry/media? Not a chance.

Eh, oh yeah, Viper. Sucks it isn't running in this year's 24.
 
Yes, the tests are informative to an extent, but I think a bit too dismissive or rigid or the make cars like the Viper*/Aventador sound so subpar. They might not be scalpels, but I doubt that diminishes the fun factor to unacceptable levels.

*unless the car given was made of garbage cans
I'm not saying they're not fun; on the contrary, I've no doubt the Viper is very fun. But it's not a great driver's car like, say, a 911, which sells for the same money. People who want Vipers want raw, crazy cars. And if they want something like that, they're likely to buy an older car with fewer computers and less refinement, but with even more thrills. People who want a great driver's car will buy the 911, and the 911 can be used daily as well.

Basically, I'm not really surprised the SRT Viper is selling badly.
 
I'm not saying they're not fun; on the contrary, I've no doubt the Viper is very fun. But it's not a great driver's car like, say, a 911, which sells for the same money. People who want Vipers want raw, crazy cars. And if they want something like that, they're likely to buy an older car with fewer computers and less refinement, but with even more thrills. People who want a great driver's car will buy the 911, and the 911 can be used daily as well.

Basically, I'm not really surprised the SRT Viper is selling badly.

I was talking about MT, if there driver's car evaluation is in part down to fun, I find it harder to understand their ranking. I prefer driving something not completely tame, and I'd say that a good car that still takes some effort to drive would be a better driver's car than something that drives itself or rides of rails all the time, at least in my opinion.

As for the Viper's appeal, you're missing a big part of it. It's fast. It's not just a wild car, you could get that by making a Challenger overpowered. The Viper is wild and fast enough to catch said 911, which knocks off a lot of older competition depending on how fast you want to go. The current Viper isn't really watered down, it's just not the leap over the last car that the Gen III or Gen IV was. I guess they're kind of on a knife edge with getting it right. The Viper cannot be just another old muscle car, it requires too much finesse for that. At the same time it can't be a Nissan GT-R that's bleeding circuits and can be driven blindfolded (figuratively).
 
I was talking about MT, if there driver's car evaluation is in part down to fun, I find it harder to understand their ranking. I prefer driving something not completely tame, and I'd say that a good car that still takes some effort to drive would be a better driver's car than something that drives itself or rides of rails all the time, at least in my opinion.
But it's not just about fun, it's about how forgiving a car is, how versatile the handling is, and whether it makes you feel like a good driver. I like a car that is a bit wild in character, but won't try to kill me. Other sports cars are plenty wild and don't "drive on rails", they just aren't as unrefined as the Viper. And here's a question: Would you, a Viper fan, take a first gen roadster, first gen GTS, first gen ACR, second gen roadster, second gen coupe, second gen ACR, or third gen coupe? The third generation is the least Viper like of them all, so I don't think it appeals to Viper people as much as the old ones. It's very expensive, yet still very unrefined, so it doesn't appeal to most people as an actual purchase.

As for the Viper's appeal, you're missing a big part of it. It's fast. It's not just a wild car, you could get that by making a Challenger overpowered. The Viper is wild and fast enough to catch said 911, which knocks off a lot of older competition depending on how fast you want to go. The current Viper isn't really watered down, it's just not the leap over the last car that the Gen III or Gen IV was. I guess they're kind of on a knife edge with getting it right. The Viper cannot be just another old muscle car, it requires too much finesse for that. At the same time it can't be a Nissan GT-R that's bleeding circuits and can be driven blindfolded (figuratively).
I know it's fast, but it's not a car with much finesse. It has loads of grip and power, but it's hard to find the limits and the power needs to be managed carefully. Chrysler never sold a lot of Vipers because it doesn't appeal to a lot of people, and even fewer who can actually afford to buy one.
 
But it's not just about fun, it's about how forgiving a car is, how versatile the handling is, and whether it makes you feel like a good driver.
I'm trying to make it seem like I don't disagree with you, because I don't think I do, but maybe I'm coming off the wrong way. I know what MT is getting at with the driver's car thing, and that's why they changed the name of it once or twice (it originally started as something different), but I don't completely follow their logic when it comes to ranking.

I like a car that is a bit wild in character, but won't try to kill me. Other sports cars are plenty wild and don't "drive on rails", they just aren't as unrefined as the Viper.
This is just hard to deal with. I'm not really convinced that magazine testers do justice when it comes to statements like this. Not saying that they don't know what they're talking about, but there is a strong tendency to not be terribly objective which makes it hard to really take in information. I've seen phrases like "Best Viper ever" thrown around with previous gen Vipers and how good it was to drive (though still not totally tame of course), and I think the consensus with the new one was at least as good. Cars tend to be evaluated by comparison and the Viper is ranked below a bunch of other cars in terms of ease of use, but what's not really clear is if the car is really trying to kill you or what that would mean. I think it's hard to get that across in writing when you primarily judge something against a moving target.

The short of it being, while it's safe to say that the Viper isn't as forgiving as some cars I do wonder about how much it really wants to kill you. My first reaction is, not terribly much more than a modern sport car. I think that would go for most Vipers barring the original. Unfortunately the lack of really rigorous objective testing in auto journalism and my lack of subjective experience makes a solid conclusion difficult to come to.

And here's a question: Would you, a Viper fan, take a first gen roadster, first gen GTS, first gen ACR, second gen roadster, second gen coupe, second gen ACR, or third gen coupe? The third generation is the least Viper like of them all, so I don't think it appeals to Viper people as much as the old ones. It's very expensive, yet still very unrefined, so it doesn't appeal to most people as an actual purchase.
2010 Viper ACR above all else that exists now, but a hypothetical current gen ACR would blow that away easily, there just isn't one to evaluate. Remove the ACR and you've left me with the Gen IV (600 hp) coupe and the current non GTS coupe (not that I wouldn't take an original GTS) and I might be telling a lie if I told you which I would take between those two without living with both for a while. They'd both make great track cars for me, which is the bottom line with the car. And that wildness does factor into being a track car when it comes to my preferences. The price doesn't bother me. The non GTS is only marginally more expensive than the SRT-10 was new. It's the GTS that's overpriced, but it seems like that's the only one anyone remembers.


I know it's fast, but it's not a car with much finesse. It has loads of grip and power, but it's hard to find the limits and the power needs to be managed carefully. Chrysler never sold a lot of Vipers because it doesn't appeal to a lot of people, and even fewer who can actually afford to buy one.

It's a niche car for sure, but the current lack of success probably isn't down to just that. They tried to break away from the niche, but didn't do it right. I can certainly tell them what I'd rather have them do, and I think there are some people who would agree me. There is more to it than that though, you touch on part of it, the new car, especially the GTS, doesn't do what it's supposed to and offer a Porsche alternative that feels like a Porsche. I couldn't care about that and really there is a different trim level that comes closer to what I want, but I wonder if there was too much focus on the GTS which muddled the car's image. You've said it's expensive and unrefined. It's only the GTS that I would call pricey. The base car should be unrefined to a degree. The GTS isn't refined enough, but it was Chrysler's poster car. A bad combination.
 
@Exorcet I feel like these two videos will illustrate what I'm trying to say.


Randy enjoys both of them. He's clearly having a lot of fun. But he's constantly on about how racy and precise the Porsche is, while he says the Viper is hard work to drive and is a bit of a brute. It depends on what you want out of a car, but ultimately the Porsche's precision, along with far better build quality, materials, and useability make it a much, much more refined car. I also notice that Randy feels free to drift the Porsche, but doesn't push the Viper quite so hard.

And I apologise for using BDC again, it's not the best comparo but I think these laps are a good indication of how the Viper drives, since all we hear is how a professional racing driver thinks of them on a track, rather than what MT says.

As for price, $100,000 is a lot of money for a car. How many people do you know who can and will spend that much money on a car? And of those people, how many will choose a 640 bhp American supercar? There's not many people like that.

We're not really in disagreement here, it's just that I'm not a Viper person and you are, so we're looking at this from different angles.
 
As for price, $100,000 is a lot of money for a car. How many people do you know who can and will spend that much money on a car? And of those people, how many will choose a 640 bhp American supercar? There's not many people like that.

This is the entire problem, right here. Not only are you buying a $100k sports car that doesn't have the same equipment as a lot of its competitors, its a $100k sports car that is trying to be a competent road car, but doing a very bad job at it. The thing is, if SRT "made it a Viper," they wouldn't sell to anyone other than previous Viper owners. If they made it a "road car," they'd have alienated all of their previous owners, and presumably attracted few new ones in the process. It is a car that's trapped in some kind of tug of war with whatever they believe its identity is - and what reality suggests that it should be. More or less, the SRT Viper is the equivalent of the C4 Corvette, trying to be something better than it was, but still not entirely sure of where its going.

In the US, its still the same problem. Why would someone who isn't a die-hard Viper fan buy one over a Stingray? I can't think of a single primary reason other than "more cylinders." They're about equally fast, handle about the same, and will still be fully capable of leaving European competition in the dust just the same. But still, the Corvette rides better, is more comfortable, I'd make a big guess and say more reliable - the only major drawback being that its less rare and won't hold its value as long.

I just can't fathom a reason for buying the Viper over the Corvette at half-price, let alone a similarly priced Porsche 911 CS, or even something like the Jaguar F-Type R Coupe.
 
As for price, $100,000 is a lot of money for a car. How many people do you know who can and will spend that much money on a car? And of those people, how many will choose a 640 bhp American supercar? There's not many people like that.
Well from my point of view, the issue with money was you're either willing to spend it or not. I decided I was so I got a job that would let me make that much money, and now it's a matter of waiting until I'm in a position to buy. As a consequence, the people around me make as much money or more than I do, so buying expensive cars isn't out of the question and at least one person I work with does own an American supercar (C6 Z06, admittedly a little bit cheaper). It doesn't take away from your point, I'm just in a small group where the overall picture may not apply.

We're not really in disagreement here, it's just that I'm not a Viper person and you are, so we're looking at this from different angles.
Well I'd go further than that, I think we even both understand the other's angle. I think what we disagreed most about really was the definition of a driver's car. I don't see how the Aventador was shoved into last place in its comparison, but I don't doubt what the MT drivers thought about it.

This is the entire problem, right here. Not only are you buying a $100k sports car that doesn't have the same equipment as a lot of its competitors, its a $100k sports car that is trying to be a competent road car, but doing a very bad job at it. The thing is, if SRT "made it a Viper," they wouldn't sell to anyone other than previous Viper owners. If they made it a "road car," they'd have alienated all of their previous owners, and presumably attracted few new ones in the process. It is a car that's trapped in some kind of tug of war with whatever they believe its identity is - and what reality suggests that it should be. More or less, the SRT Viper is the equivalent of the C4 Corvette, trying to be something better than it was, but still not entirely sure of where its going.
And yet this is exactly what they tried to avoid with the base car + GTS line up. They couldn't make one faster than the other, or one side would feel they were getting the inferior model. I think where they failed the most was in making the GTS a GT car.

In the US, its still the same problem. Why would someone who isn't a die-hard Viper fan buy one over a Stingray? I can't think of a single primary reason other than "more cylinders." They're about equally fast, handle about the same, and will still be fully capable of leaving European competition in the dust just the same. But still, the Corvette rides better, is more comfortable, I'd make a big guess and say more reliable - the only major drawback being that its less rare and won't hold its value as long.
I actually think this is easier to answer. It sounds a lot like the C6 Z06 vs ZR1. The Z06 was arguably a better car except in a straight line, but the ZR1 still sold for being "bigger and better".

I just can't fathom a reason for buying the Viper over the Corvette at half-price, let alone a similarly priced Porsche 911 CS, or even something like the Jaguar F-Type R Coupe.
The Jaguar is out I think for being more of a GT, not really directly analogous. And if you get into people who want a certain to have a certain "image" it drifts farther away. The relatively small jump in performance for the Gen V Viper is a bit of an issue though. I know that I was pretty much expecting it to dance circles around the ZR1 at the very least, but it ended up just matching that car.
 
Let's not underestimate the effect looks has on car sales here. I think the Viper has a pretty strong appeal to certain people. The Corvette has gone pretty European, the Viper hasn't.
 
Let's not underestimate the effect looks has on car sales here. I think the Viper has a pretty strong appeal to certain people. The Corvette has gone pretty European, the Viper hasn't.
And brand loyalty/identity, that's a huge factor for many at least here in the states.
 
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