General Discussion

[RoadHazzard]

The following was a PM I sent to RadioGT, who either doesn't have PM permissions or refuses to confirm its receipt...

RadioGT,

If you have ever enjoyed a LEGO set (and judging by the geographical location indicated in your profile, you probably have), you will understand that there are many ways for different people to express themselves in any way that they find satisfying. With a LEGO set, builders have the option of following printed instructions/illustrations that accompany the set, and/or they can choose to find other ways to find pleasure in using them... sometimes, by eating them or throwing them at their siblings.

Similarly, players of the GT series are free to play the game in any manner that they find worthwhile. They can, as you have, treat the game as though it were a "real-life simulator" that allows them to experience the sensation of driving without the costs, risks, and other hurdles that normally prevent one from actually achieving the feats the game might allow.

Others may choose to exploit this opportunity for an inexpensive, riskless, and easily accessible method to satisfy their desire to have fun... whatever that may mean to them.

And still, others may choose to do both, or neither, or some combination of the two. The bottom line is that Polyphony Digital, for whatever reasons, has given us the option to choose to play this game in a manner we find most pleasant and worthwhile. If we want to progress through the game with a rigid compliance to "real-world" physics, or if we want to explore the limits of what the game will allow (as software), we are free to do so.

But to invalidate or deride the achievements and goals of others based on our own personal preferences is tantamount to elitism. Doing so can seem self-serving, inflammatory, and generally doesn't contribute toward building a sense of community between the members who participate within it. In fact, it is much more likely to create conflict and division in what would otherwise be a productive community.

RadioGT, you are certainly free to express yourself in a manner that complies with GTPlanet.net's User Agreement. However, I would like to remind you that the main purpose of the forums in which many of your posts appear is not to provide people with a venue for soap-boxing their opinions. In particular, one of the main purposes of the 200pt A-Spec Races Forum is to act as a resource for those who choose to use it as such.

Your arguments, however valid they may or may not be, have done nothing toward this end (other than your recent contributions to the Stock car comparison/challenge and Beginner & Professional Events Threads). While the post count has increased from the time you first posted within the forum, the forum has now become more diluted with posts that are not contributory in nature.

I would ask you to consider why, after many iterations, Polyphony Digital hasn't incorporated a "Steward" feature for the GT Series (either mandatory or as an option) where the stringent rules with which you play your game are applied to every other aspect of the game. I would also ask you to consider why the DQ/Failed Run feature that is implemented in the License Tests isn't implemented elsewhere (other than the penalties for the Driving Missions)... I do, fully, realize that even within the License Tests and Driving Missions, there are exploitable "glitches".

And after such consideration, I would like to make it known that many who participate in the 200pt forum have achieved gold license times for each and every test offered in GT4. Many have already done their part in complying with GT4s "clean driving" requirements, and have excelled in doing so. Many of them are looking to take their game further, rather than simply staying between the lines.

I hope I've been able to shed some light on this subject, as it appears as though you fail to understand why people play in the manner in which they choose. As much as I might agree with many of your arguments regarding clean driving and real-world simulation, I feel the need to remind you that we are free to enjoy this game in whichever way pleases us, and that being persecuted for our goals and choices gets in the way of our doing so.

Thank you for taking the time to read this. I appreciate your taking the time to do so, and hope that you appreciate the time it took to compose this message. I sincerely hope that you continue to find enjoyment with this great game, and realize that we are all trying to do the same... albeit, in varying ways.

Have A Great Drive, 👍
RoadHazard

I'd like to remind everyone reading that RadioGT has admitted to not taking the License Tests as seriously as many of us have. Why would someone not concentrate on the portion of the game that is most complicit with their own set of rules?

I'd also like to add... in "real world racing", vehicles that have incurred damage have continued to finish races. Some have even gone on to win.

I'd also like to add... depending on the rules of the race and the interpretation thereof, some vehicles are allowed to run off-course and not be DQ'd nor even penalized.

I'd also like to add... after finishing in first place, the game will increment the numerator in the Game Status' "Win Ratio" stat. For any other result, it will not do this. What does the message at the bottom of the Congratulations/Prize Car screen say after being awarded a car for a race event? What do the producers of this game consider a win?

...

The way I see it, I'm playing a game. I'm looking to achieve 100% completion in this game (which is entirely different than "playing this game completely"). I'm allowing myself to use my thumbs and a DualShock2 controller to do so, and nothing else.

I'm not kidding myself into thinking that any results, good or bad, are an indication of how well or poorly I drive "in the real world". Have I learned anything about cars/driving while playing this game? Sure. But I have no delusions in thinking that everything I do while playing this game will be applicable to the manner in which I drive a car. I'm simply trying to have fun while "driving".

And if anyone gets in my way, they can expect to be run over.

Have A Great Drive, all!!!👍
RoadHazard

 

[Austin343]

I've transplanted the sections of a post originally from the "Italy, Korea, UK, US One-makes" thread that pertain to this one into their correct place.

RaidoGT, we (you and the rest of the participants in this subforum) have apparently reached an impasse, but I'll try to explain myself as well as I can. Much of what I'm going to say has already been said very eloquently in this and other threads, but I would like to give my opinion anyway.

In this subforum, the goal that must carry precendence over all others is gaining the maximum number of A-Spec points in every race. Even for those who value clean driving, including me, it must be put by the wayside when competing in certain maximum-point endeavors that can only be won by cheating. That said, driving uncleanly is not a requirement of maximum-point racing: many races can be won immaculately in a stock car, and I have several replays saved of such races if you care to see them. We aren't just a bunch of dirty drivers; we cheat when it's necessary and otherwise drive as cleanly as we care to do, depending on our level of impatience with the Artificial Idiots.

I completely respect your viewpoints, and agree with them wholeheartedly in general (I go to great lengths to drive cleanly and also use N1-3 tires whenever possible under the rules I'm using, such as those of the stock car thread). But they cannot and should not be applied to this subforum, because of the number of races in which the only way to win is to cheat. Clearly, because this clashes with what you feel must be maintained at all times (clean driving), this is not the subforum for you.

 

[Uncle Harry]

Been away too long.
Radio GT, a novice driver crashing and bashing around will never win some of these races for 200 points.
What is done here to achieve 200 ASpec point wins is done with a degree of skill, car set up ability and practice far in excess of crashing and bashing around.
The blocking, bashing and short cuts would all amount to zero if you do not have the skill learnt previously from good race craft before comencing on the quest.
Controlling a car on economy tires with zero grip to cut a corner, bump 2 nd place out of the way and maintain momentum for the 200 point win is extremely difficult at certain races.


Just had 6 months off, stuffed up the 24 hour ring race with 1 hour to go back in Feb ( accidently exited race) and it took this long to redo .

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Been away too long.
Radio GT, a novice driver crashing and bashing around will never win some of these races for 200 points.
What is done here to achieve 200 ASpec point wins is done with a degree of skill, car set up ability and practice far in excess of crashing and bashing around.
The blocking, bashing and short cuts would all amount to zero if you do not have the skill learnt previously from good race craft before comencing on the quest.
Controlling a car on economy tires with zero grip to cut a corner, bump 2 nd place out of the way and maintain momentum for the 200 point win is extremely difficult at certain races.

Finally a voice of reason in this sea of bad, cheating drivers. Not you Austin343...I'm talking about a few others on this page.

 

[GTsail]

Finally a voice of reason in this sea of bad, cheating drivers. Not you Austin343...I'm talking about a few others on this page.

I think that Parnelli Bone feels we have gone over to the "Dark Side" in pursuit of 200 point wins. My excuse that the game made me do it, I guess is not good enough!!

I think that RoadHazzard explained our situation quite well just above.

If racing cleanly will only net 180 A-spec points, I find it impossible to let the other 20 points just sit there. I feel the need to try and get them by any means that the game will allow.

I did not always drive this way before getting hooked on the maximum A-spec point quest. In tough races, I would sometimes use "enhanced driving tactics" (because I really wanted to win the race), and I would accept the tainted wins, but feel that I wished I was a better driver, and would not have to employ various "dirty" tactics. I imagined that the best drivers did not have to employ these tactics. But now I am perfectly happy to employ "enhanced driving tactics" if necessary when there are still a few remaining points on the table.

My bad!!

GTsail290

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Been away too long.
Radio GT, a novice driver crashing and bashing around will never win some of these races for 200 points.
What is done here to achieve 200 ASpec point wins is done with a degree of skill, car set up ability and practice far in excess of crashing and bashing around.
The blocking, bashing and short cuts would all amount to zero if you do not have the skill learnt previously from good race craft before comencing on the quest.
Controlling a car on economy tires with zero grip to cut a corner, bump 2 nd place out of the way and maintain momentum for the 200 point win is extremely difficult at certain races.


Just had 6 months off, stuffed up the 24 hour ring race with 1 hour to go back in Feb ( accidently exited race) and it took this long to redo .

Very well put UH.

This percieved "cheating" mentality is pure hogwash, a fantasy reserved only unto the uninitiated.

Here it is again for those who think otherwise:

The following is reprinted from: "My NOS dilemma..." thread.
I offer the same challenge to you.
Tell me how many you can win without NOS, rough driving, wall riding or short cutting. (better yet, can you win them using those tactics?)


It's not "a way" to get 200 or Max Aspec points. In many races it's "the only way". If you don't believe me try some of these on for 200 or the maximum achieveable Aspec points.


Race / max Aspec points

1000 miles / 200 ea.
Roadster Endurance / 200
Saleen S7 club / 200ea.
MG festival / 200ea.
Hyundai sports festival / 880 total
Chrysler Crossfire / 546 total
Chevy Camaro meeting / 200ea.
Suzuki Concepts / 200ea.
Nissan Silvia Sisters / 200ea.
Daihatsu Copen Races / 498 total
VW GTI Cup / 200ea.
Renault Alpine Cup / 200ea.
Super Speedway 150 miles / 200 (I added this one since wallriding was mentioned)

This is just a few races you cannot win for max points without using NOS. There are many others.

The illusion that with NOS and/or rough driving you will have an "unfair advantage" will melt away instantly.
Ha! anything but.

 

[RaidoGT]

"clean driving,... it must be put by the wayside when competing..... can only be won by cheating."

Oh look, excuses..! I love those. Especially when there's such a lot to choose from.

It still won't make a valid result chaps. Only clean laps are actual results. Dirty laps don't count - ever.



The 111.813 points total is arbitrary and depends on the GT4 version used. If a max points result can only be gained by cheating drives, then that result is always invalid. The actual number of maximum points is the maximum gained by clean drives ONLY. The point of competing is to find out what that maximum points number is - in other words: the driver with the most (clean) points attained has the highest score.


Nevertheless: Don't get me wrong, this is just a game and there's nothing wrong with (ab)using it privately. But if you're going to post your results *publically*, you better make sure they're actually valid.

Regards, R

NB. "RadioGT makes the point(s) that the 200 point system is flawed, the coding and AI is flawed, that "wins" in GT4 are actually not wins unless done his way, and that, by implication, players doing it any way other than his are also flawed."




I'll just mention here some randomly picked general rules from several racing leagues....

... And here's the kicker: Some of them are even from this same forum.


======================
- Corner cutting is not allowed.* Two wheels must remain on the asphalt/tarmac at any one time.* You may ride the kerbs/curbs but all four wheels must not be on the kerb/curb or the grass, at least two should remain on the racing surface.

------------------

Railriding
Railriding is when a driver uses track side objects, typically armco barriers to control the car. Clearly a driver is not using his skill to control the car and will not be allowed to gain an unfair advantage as a result of his actions. Examples with typical penalties are here.
--------------------
-8. Deliberate Corner cutting is not permitted. Drivers are allowed to use the kerbs to the extent that they still have at least two wheels on the track at all times.

----------------------

Wall banging
Colliding with or using walls, fences or other obstacle is forbidden, whether time is gained or not. All times submitted must be 100% wall free. Except for Coffeebreak-tests the touching or knocking-over of cones on the track is prohibited.
Corner cutting / Driving Style
Two wheels (except when airborne, where the vertical projection of the car onto the track counts) must be in contact with the track/circuit which includes the rumble strips and footpaths but not grassed areas.

-----------------------
1.2
Corner cutting. We let the game sort this one out. But if a driver uses cutting corners to gain an advantage
to his competitors, he can be reported to the judges. This is what the judges will look into when taking a protest under consideration:
You have to stay with two wheels (one at the front and one at the back) on the track at all times. Track is
defined by the white lines, unless there are curbs.

-----------------------

K. General Rules * * 1) Acceptable racing areas include the tarmac/asphalt and curbs, it does not include grass, gravel, speed bumps or run-off areas. A driver must keep at least 2 wheels within the acceptable racing area at all times.
1.1) Any significant advantage gained, ie places or >0.2sec time without the driver relinquishing that gain, safely & sufficently, will result in a penalty.
1.2) Continously leaving the racing area to gain an advantage, no matter how significant, without showing regular signs of intent to take an acceptable line, will result in penalty. Mistakes are understandable, the intent to gain by cutting isnt.
1.3) Cutting a corner to avoid any obsticals on the race track is acceptable provided it is done honestly and without intent to gain advantage from it.

----------------------

7. No wall riding.... If you are caught doing so you will be banned. (Qualifying Included)
----------------------

- B:Two wheels (except when airborne, where the vertical projection of the car onto the track counts) must be in contact with the track/circuit which includes the rumble strips and footpaths, but not grassed areas. On city courses the track border is the limit of the usable track. Curbs, sidewalks/pavements are not part of the track unless otherwise stated in the Race Specifics section of any given event.

A: Colliding with or using walls, fences or other obstacle is forbidden, whether time is gained or not. All times submitted must be 100% wall free unless otherwise stated in the Race Specifics section of any given event (multiple lap races where allowances are made for errors).
- J: Cutting the chicanes or "shorting" the track at any point is strictly prohibited on all parts of the track, including the asphalt-areas in behind out-of track-lines. Track specific boundaries will be clarified in the Race Specifics section of any given event.

-J: You must not use any cheats or bugs in the game. The use of cheats or bugs affecting the cars performance is forbidden.

- L: The use of shortcuts (e.g. in license tests, lessons or events) which are based on bugs in the game is prohibited. The fact that the game will allow you to take shortcuts does not account for a valid run.

---------------------

 

[Open Addict]

"clean driving,... it must be put by the wayside when competing..... can only be won by cheating."

Oh look, excuses..! I love those. Especially when there's such a lot to choose from.

It still won't make a valid result chaps. Only clean laps are actual results. Dirty laps don't count - ever.



The 111.813 points total is arbitrary and depends on the GT4 version used. If a max points result can only be gained by cheating drives, then that result is always invalid. The actual number of maximum points is the maximum gained by clean drives ONLY. The point of competing is to find out what that maximum points number is - in other words: the driver with the most (clean) points attained has the highest score.


Nevertheless: Don't get me wrong, this is just a game and there's nothing wrong with (ab)using it privately. But if you're going to post your results *publically*, you better make sure they're actually valid.

Regards, R

NB. "RadioGT makes the point(s) that the 200 point system is flawed, the coding and AI is flawed, that "wins" in GT4 are actually not wins unless done his way, and that, by implication, players doing it any way other than his are also flawed."....

What a crock, you STILL do not understand the meaning of this sub-forum.
And you are still trying to say that every member who has obtained any A-Spec points by disobeying any of your rules is not vaild.
This is a place where members go to tell of how they obtained maximum points to be offered in a race.
The majority of the members in this sub-forum, do not care how you get the points, as long as you get them.

I'll just mention here some randomly picked general rules from several racing leagues.... ....

We do know the rules from these racing leagues. Because if you do not abide to them you will be kicked out of that league.
The maximum A-spec point hunt is NOT a racing league, therefore these rules are NOT adhered to. Except in the Stock Car Racing thread where there are rules.

I think, IMO, if you do not like how, the majority, of the members who visit the 200pt A-Spec Races forum, play this game and help each other to play the game the same,
then this really is not a place for you.

As I have said before to you, maybe you could ask that a sub-section be set up just for you, for the "Maximum A-Spec, Clean, No dirty Tactics, Cheating, and only RadioGT's rules apply" forum. because this is not that place.

 

[Austin343]

Apparently, neither side is ever going to convince the other that they are right, judging by the way this discussion - or rather, argument - is going.

RaidoGT, please understand that most of the time, the players in this subforum try our best to treat GT4 as a racing simulator, and race according to accepted rules about what constitutes clean driving and cheating. In maximum A-Spec point racing, we treat it as a videogame. We realize that when we are driving in the toughest maximum-point races, what we are doing has nothing to do with racing; it's all about achieving this goal of maximum points, a very game-like proposition. We consider the two aims (winning cleanly versus gaining points) - the two "worlds," you could say - to be totally separate. I understand that you consider it a travesty to, in certain cases, treat what purports to be a driving simulator as just a game and forget all about emulating the real world, but we don't see it that way. We recognize that GT4 is not the real world, and it is a game. Besides, what we do here requires skill and is definitely fun. How can you object to that?

Also, please realize that I completely understand your viewpoint. I like to treat GT4 as if it were the real world, because it's the closest thing that I have to actually driving and racing performance cars, and aim to drive as realistically as I can when what I'm doing is sort of realistic. Wearing down an engine, adding tons of weight, and equipping the shoddiest possible tires, is definitely unrealistic. I don't like to drive uncleanly, but I can forget about pretending that GT4 is real, or that it perfectly mimics reality, and can pursue 111813 points by doing whatever is necessary (and nothing more than that) to achieve it.

I really hope that makes clear to you what we're doing and why we're doing it.

 

[Open Addict]

....I really hope that makes clear to you what we're doing and why we're doing it.

I don't think it will.

 

[Car-less]

"clean driving,... it must be put by the wayside when competing..... can only be won by cheating."

Oh look, excuses..! I love those. Especially when there's such a lot to choose from.

It still won't make a valid result chaps. Only clean laps are actual results. Dirty laps don't count - ever.



Nevertheless: Don't get me wrong, this is just a game and there's nothing wrong with (ab)using it privately. But if you're going to post your results *publically*, you better make sure they're actually valid.



I'll just mention here some randomly picked general rules from several racing leagues....

... And here's the kicker: Some of them are even from this same forum.

Consider a car magazine of your choice.

In it will be many sections;
- News/product reviews.
- Feature cars.
- Show reports.
- Small ads.

Each of these sections will have its own rules that do not necessarily apply to the other sections.

A feature car will be immaculately cleaned, polished and professionally photographed. Many pages will be devoted to this one vehicle, but contact details of the owner and the value of the car will be deliberately ommitted.

The small ads will often contain cellphone pictures of rusted heaps, a (very) few words including the most important details of how to contact the owner, and what the car is worth.

Oh look. Instant contradiction, and yet these are in the same physical magazine. How can it be allowed?


...and here at GTPlanet it is the same.

There are many sections;
- Site feedback.
- On-Line racing.
- GT4 Drifting.
- 200pt A-Spec Races.

And each of these sections has their own rules (within a wider set of rules, the AUP) that do not necessarily apply to other sections.

In On-Line racing you will find a very strict set of rules regarding how and where you are allowed to drive, but complete disregard of how many points are on offer.

In the 200pt A-Spec Races section you can find complete disregard for driving ettiqete with a focus only on achieving the maximum points that the game can possibly award.

Oh look. They don't match. What a surprise.

If the rules regarding this section do not sit well with you, then this is not the section you should be reading. I myself consider Drifting to be a complete waste. A waste of tyres, of fuel, and of time. So what do I do. I ignore it completely and let those that enjoy it do so - rather than going in there and trying to convince a group of people I consider to be doin' it all wrong that grip racing is all that matters.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

I don't think it will.

Contrar, I think he does. IMHO he maintains this irrelevant fantasy, in an attempt to hide from the daunting difficulty of the max. Aspec pt. challenge.

As UH points out and I have to agree, it takes much more skill, tenacity, and perseverance to complete these races than any other challenge in the game that I know of.

I like how he supposedly reveres these rules, yet conveniently leaves out the rules regaurding the cars that will be raced, which are part of every racing league or sanctioning body. And without such, render the rest of the rules and his argument, completely irrelevant.


BTW 111,813 A spec pts. is the maximum achievable regaurdless of the game your playing.

Unless of course RGT, you wish to undertake the challenge and prove us all wrong.

 

[Dotini]

Unfortunately, there is no reasoning with a zealot or fundamentalist. What we have here is a would-be morality policeman, a species of Taliban, who will not rest until the world is made over in his dogmatic image. Even worse, we have fallen into the trap of taking him seriously, and now our own ethos of tolerance and politeness is turned against us. We are being abused, hectored and harassed, unmercifully proselytized by a dubious clergyman with his odious foot in the door of what he considers to be a house of ill repute. He will not relent until we are converted or scourged from the Earth. Unfortunately for him, he has missed the crest of the Inquisition and Crusades by several hundred years.

 

[AMG.]

Although I agree with some of his points, in my opinion they don't apply in this quest. If they had... the original thread would have long been closed in 2005. Enough said on the matter so I won't repeat it here.

We have managed to divert the discussion to this thread and for that I'm happy. There's a chance that this discussion turns in to a flame fest ( I can smell some wisps of smoke already) and that is not a good development.

My suggestion would be to stop (responding to) the discussion as I believe everything has been mentioned. No need to repeat it. If you do feel the need to post, go ahead, but I ask you to please review before you submit. I'd hate to see a moderator step in and possibly even lock this thread. Keep in mind, no one, but admins/mods can open a thread in this subforum.

If we lose this thread further discussions might take place in the other threads turning them in to (semi) useless threads and God forbid the same may happen there.

AMG.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Unfortunately, there is no reasoning with a zealot or fundamentalist. What we have here is a would-be morality policeman, a species of Taliban, who will not rest until the world is made over in his dogmatic image. Even worse, we have fallen into the trap of taking him seriously, and now our own ethos of tolerance and politeness is turned against us. We are being abused, hectored and harassed, unmercifully proselytized by a dubious clergyman with his odious foot in the door of what he considers to be a house of ill repute. He will not relent until we are converted or scourged from the Earth. Unfortunately for him, he has missed the crest of the Inquisition and Crusades by several hundred years.

Although I agree with some of his points, in my opinion they don't apply in this quest. If they had... the original thread would have long been closed in 2005. Enough said on the matter so I won't repeat it here.

We have managed to divert the discussion to this thread and for that I'm happy. There's a chance that this discussion turns in to a flame fest ( I can smell some wisps of smoke already) and that is not a good development.

My suggestion would be to stop (responding to) the discussion as I believe everything has been mentioned. No need to repeat it. If you do feel the need to post, go ahead, but I ask you to please review before you submit. I'd hate to see a moderator step in and possibly even lock this thread. Keep in mind, no one, but admins/mods can open a thread in this subforum.

If we lose this thread further discussions might take place in the other threads turning them in to (semi) useless threads and God forbid the same may happen there.

AMG.

The Great Dotini, pleasantly eloquent as always and AMG a voice for moderation crying in the wilderness. Your pleas will not go unheeded. Hereafter I pledge to do my utmost to restore my ethos of tolerance and politeness, summoning as much wherewithal as I can muster under these most trying of circumstances. I trust any moderator worth his salt can see the gauntlet has been laid, assailing the sacred honor and dignity of every Aspec nutter on this thread. Consequently it can tend to get a fella's dander up. (enough is enough) Nevertheless, since the essence of the situation has been so delineated by two of our most esteemed Colleagues, let us make every effort to proceed in all civility and courtesy, worthy of the club to which we belong.

Frankly I think we've been too easy on the ...
OOps! I have a urgent call to summon some more wherewithall. See ya.

 

[PF]

To steer the conversation in a different direction...

I've recently got back into trying for Aspec (I've barely raced in a year or so, just tuned and tested), and I'd like a list of what I've seen called the 'bunny races' (IIRC).

I need to remember how to race but know I won't get it from the Opel cup or the 360 series. I want something relatively easy to win to get me back into the swing of things.

Unfortunately, my note-taking was not too good in the early days so I only know I have:
10xMissions=2500
FR beginner=1 or 1.2k
I think I finished FF=1 or 1.2k
most of MR=another 1k or so
Japan '80s most of=1k or so
Euro German B for about 160ea=1k or so
RAMmed a few Spec Cons=1k or so (this was long ago; now I know the error of my ways)
And thousands of points elsewhere that were not tracked.

I'd like suggestions for 200pt races that are easy to do and will get me back into the headspace of Aspec racing. For example, I've done very few of the manufacturers' races and none, IIRC, for maximum. And, for the record, consider me a driver that will use NOS but not wallriding or ramming. At least not for the next 50,000 or so Aspec.

Also, don't worry about suggesting 200pt Enduros, I'm working on that separately and have a good 40pp of data and notes.

Thanks in advance,

PF

 

[shepzki]

To steer the conversation in a different direction...

I've recently got back into trying for Aspec (I've barely raced in a year or so, just tuned and tested), and I'd like a list of what I've seen called the 'bunny races' (IIRC).

I need to remember how to race but know I won't get it from the Opel cup or the 360 series. I want something relatively easy to win to get me back into the swing of things.

Unfortunately, my note-taking was not too good in the early days so I only know I have:
10xMissions=2500
FR beginner=1 or 1.2k
I think I finished FF=1 or 1.2k
most of MR=another 1k or so
Japan '80s most of=1k or so
Euro German B for about 160ea=1k or so
RAMmed a few Spec Cons=1k or so (this was long ago; now I know the error of my ways)
And thousands of points elsewhere that were not tracked.

I'd like suggestions for 200pt races that are easy to do and will get me back into the headspace of Aspec racing. For example, I've done very few of the manufacturers' races and none, IIRC, for maximum. And, for the record, consider me a driver that will use NOS but not wallriding or ramming. At least not for the next 50,000 or so Aspec.

Also, don't worry about suggesting 200pt Enduros, I'm working on that separately and have a good 40pp of data and notes.

Thanks in advance,

PF

For Manafacturers races I found the following easy for max points:

Blackpool Racers
Peugeot 206 Cup
Clio Trophy
Group M Trophy
Speedster Trophy
Beetle Cup
GTA Cup
Type-R Meeting
Civic Race
Group RE
Roadster Cup
Evolution Meeting
Mirage Cup
Race Of Red Emblem
March Brothers
Stars Of Pleiades
Yaris Race
Corvette Festival
Shelby Cobra Cup

 

[RaidoGT]

My suggestion would be to stop (responding to) the discussion as I believe everything has been mentioned. No need to repeat it. If you do feel the need to post, go ahead, but I ask you to please review before you submit.

Agreed. Those who think cheating is necessary - even in a racing game if they can't get the results by regular means (*ooh, look at the skillz I used here bouncing off them walls, ooh!* ) - will probably never be persuaded to change their corner-cutting, wallriding and generally quite honourless ways, I guess.


It's fun to see, though, being branded a fundamentalist, a Taliban, a zealot and a moral stifflip just for pointing out that cheating a game is not quite the same as mastering it. (Do I hear some wounded pride there - in many cases here, quite rightly so btw?)

A lot of those who promote, nay, even *propagate* cheating the game, think I don't understand what the point is of gaining 200 point races and maximum points. I do. I just happen to disagree that cheating the game is the way to get them, since it means zip for showing your skillz and any result gained thru game-cheating will always be invalid and thus worthless anyway. Q.E.D.

Good night. And for those who keep persisting it's "just my personal" opinion and think the rest of us are wheel-wielding Talibans, I'll leave you again with some fun quotes:



"If everyone stops racing these losers who feel the means justify the ends then there will be a clear division and all these cheaters can race on their own Mad Max type environment while we chill out and enjoy the racing with good clean racers."
--------------------


"Im fed up of the cheaters and glitchers in this game. I mean all of the scoreboards are wrong due to the glitches in the game.
They need to sort out the corner cutters asap as this is supposed to be a race simulator but without race rules."
--------------


"I think cheating in racing games is abusive to your own driving skills because it's like if you don't cheat, you can't win. I rather enjoy the game's difficulty. Look, even without cheating, I end up having F1, R8, 787B, and all those. Cheating is similar to ramming your opponent off the road in real life. "


...And that, gentlemen and other, perhaps somewhat less-evolved forms of life, is how it is.

 

[nige]

Without fear of bumping this frankly boring discussion along even further and from someone who has achieved max points by whatever means one wants to call it, I frankly couldn't give a toss what you RaidoGT think.
I play the game my way and you play the game yours. Remember it's only a game!
Lets stop cluttering up this 200 a-spec thread with arguments that have been heard hundreds of times before.
nige

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Since the reasonable challenge to drive a few arduous miles in 200/max.pt. shoes is apparently going to be artfully dodged, that tells me all I need to know.

 

[Smallhorses]

...And that, gentlemen and other, perhaps somewhat less-evolved forms of life, is how it is.

RaidoGT, you've been asked nicely by respected forum members to cease and desist posting your inflammatory remarks in here, and so far haven't done it and have now resorted to low-level insults which is simply unacceptable.

Take it now from a staff member, you will stop this, as you will cease posting with lazy grammar such as "skillz" & "thru".

You're clearly not going to accept that achieving maximum points is impossible without a degree of dirty driving, while people in here are willing to admit that, yes it's necessary, even though it's not necessarily right and they have accepted this as part of the game.
We've accepted that you have a different viewpoint, but reiterating it over & over again simply isn't going to make anyone more likely to share your view.

I understand that you do not share everyone's opinion here with regards to accruing maximum points, but, as has so carefully been pointed out here, the achievement of maximum A-spec total possible is unobtainable without resorting to questionable tactics.
Some people have opted to complete their game in this manner.
This is their choice and regardless of whether you like it or not, they're each entitled to play their own game in whichever manner they choose.
You also have a choice in how you play your game, and we can accept that you will never reach maximum A-spec points, in the same way that I won't either since I flat-out refuse to use NOS, but I don't come in here accusing every NOS user a cheat, and nor should you.

At the end of the day, this is a game, you can play it how you wish, as can everyone else, and for some people to take advantage of certain game flaws doesn't mean they're necessarily awful drivers, incapable of winning races any other way which is what you're suggesting.
As Uncle Harry rightly suggests, a high degree of skill is required in many places to even be close enough to the AI cars to take advantage of these flaws in the first place, especially when handicapped by increased ballast weight, crappy tyres and low power, which explains the small number of people who've actually achieved the maximum A-spec total in the first place.

Stick to playing your game your way and leave everyone else to theirs.
Continually repeating yourself here really isn't achieving much. You have your opinion, which you're welcome to, but please learn the difference between a game and reality. Just because someone has exploited a game flaw here doesn't mean they'd necessarily drive a real car in a real race in the same manner, as we all know there are consequences and penalties for that. If they existed within the game people would be duty bound to accept them too, but they don't and people are entitled, like yourself & myself, to impose those rules on yourself if you so choose, but we are not allowed to come into this part of the forum to pour scorn and disdain on those who chose not to impose non-existant game rules upon themselves, as this is after all (in case you'd missed the point of this area of the forum in the first place) the place for General Discussion on how to achieve 200 point or maximum point races within GT4.

Bear in mind that many members of the 100,000 point club, or maximum point club are also members of the 200 Points in Stock Car races club too, a club which has much stricter rules on how a 200 point race may be run (no deliberate AI contact, wallriding or shortcutting and at least 2 tyres on track at all times if at all possible) which proves their capabilites in the racing arena.
I can certainly imagine that in a true racing environment that folks like Uncle Harry, Dotini, RoadHazzard, nige, etc., would be a pleasure to race against and I can speak from personal experience with AMG. at UKGTP7 to say this is definitely the case.

It's widely known that clean racing is promoted in all areas of online racing and hotlapping leagues, so posting their rules in here achieves nothing, since this is not an online racing event, ergo their rules don't necessarily apply in here for everyone.
You need to accept that there are different rules in place for different things in different places, and just because rules don't match everywhere doesn't make it wrong.
Each country in the world has their own laws with regards to driving and what's necessary to obtain a licence. Just because the UK or US laws don't match those in Holland or France, for example, doesn't mean that they're any more valid or invalid than anywhere else, and nor does it give me the right to say that because I hold UK & US Licences that my driving skills are superior to someone who holds, say, an Egyptian or Italian licence.

 

[Dotini]

Smallhorses, thank you for your thoughtful, calming words.

And congratulations on your new high of 96,502 A-spec. In all honesty, it is sukerkin and yourself who impress me most in this game, yes because of the difficulty of what you accomplish, but mostly because of the high style in which you accomplish it.

 

[RaidoGT]

...and have now resorted to low-level insults which is simply unacceptable.

Admittedly, on that last one it would have been better to insert a smiley afterwards. I could care less about getting to 'cease and desist' anything, but I haven't insulted anyone directly or personally. My apologies if I have - I never actually questioned the skillz of anybody in particular, but admit I tend to use rather sarcastic wit sometimes. If this was not taken as such, I should have worded it a bit more clearly.

Nevertheless, on the issue at hand I'm fully willing to reply in kind.

Take it now from a staff member, you will stop this, as you will cease posting with lazy grammar such as "skillz" & "thru".

Oh dear oh dear. You come here acting like the grammar police (I'm fully aware how to spell btw) while at the same time actually *condone cheating* in GT4, and you're supposed to be a *moderator*? Heavens above, I cry for humanity. (For the humor-impaired: /sarcasm mode off/.)

My word, if this wasn't so tragic, I think I'd quote this thread on some simracing forums since it'll be good for a laugh. Let me tell you mate, I've been an admin on other sites myself, and nowhere on any serious kind of forum cheating is actually propagated as a way to complete a game or competition.

And yes, AI-punting, corner-cutting and wallriding, no matter *how* you put it, constitute cheating in a racing game. Any five-year-old knows that in on-track racing, you're supposed to race *on the track*, (purposely designed to keep the cars from going anywhere, after all) and not somewhere alongside it, let alone bash from wall to wall to reach the finish line. I don't think I need to elaborate on the basic concept any further.
In other games, like Wipeout, Mario Kart or Midnight Club things may be different. But in GT4, it's obvious the driving/racing is supposed to be based on real life. Where wallbashing hurts, and deliberate corner-cutting causes DQ's. In all kinds of sims, as well, it's acknowledged that cheating is 'not done' unless you want to be designated a 'n00b' or a 'l0ser'. If it's any different here, the standards need to be raised somehow. 💡

And that's not because people's racing skills are flawed, but because the game is flawed (no damage and not enough penalties). However, if you want to have any kind of meaningful competition, then the basic rules will have to deal with that somehow, instead of supporting it.

I understand that you do not share everyone's opinion here with regards to accruing maximum points, but, as has so carefully been pointed out here, the achievement of maximum A-spec total possible is unobtainable without resorting to questionable tactics. Some people have opted to complete their game in this manner.

Well in their case it's very simple: those results (at least the parts where cheating was applied) are invalid, period.
The only maximum result that has any value (at least in a racing game that's supposed to depict actual racing) is the maximum that can be achieved by driving like real racing, and not taking advantage of game-cheats to achieve better results.
The 111.800+ is therefore only a virtual artifice; a theoretical maximum instead of a realistic goal depicting people's driving skills (and no, wallbanging does *not* constitute a racing skill). Therefore, the real goal - for real racers - would be to figure out what the *actual* maximum is (under or above 100.000?); the person(s) that accrued the most points this way, are then on top of the leaderboard.

Like I said before, I'm in no way opposed to anyone enjoying the game the way they want to. There's nothing wrong with (ab)using the game physics to have fun at home.
But if you want to post your results *publically* in a forum to depict personal achievements, you better make sure those are actually valid. And wallriding and/or corner-cutting rides are not and will never be, since they cheat the game/sim instead of playing it.

Conversely though, if you've gained your race wins cleanly - and certainly without using NOS altogether, my hat is deeply off to you.


I'm not going to repeat myself endlessly on this, since the point should be fairly clear by now. If you want to have any kind of serious racing competition, cheating will have to be disallowed.
If not, it has no point - we can all Notepad ourselves to 100.000+ points with much less effort, after all - but the end result would the same.

..are also members of the 200 Points in Stock Car races club too, a club which has much stricter rules on how a 200 point race may be run (no deliberate AI contact, wallriding or shortcutting and at least 2 tyres on track at all times if at all possible) which proves their capabilites in the racing arena.

Well, I respect those rules much more than the lack of them in other areas, naturally. That's a measure of real skill in virtual racing terms. (I've achieved some stock 200-pointers - cleanly of course - and anyone who did the same on the tougher ones deserves a good amount of respect.)



Since that *also* constitutes a racing club over here (and since I don't want to just criticize over here without actually contributing any usable suggestions myself), I propose to graft its guidelines and use them anew.
To discuss a new competition: the Stock+ Realism Club. In there, you post your results only if you've managed to win a race *cleanly* and *realistically*. That is: stock cars, no downforce for non-racing cars, no driving aids, and realistic N2 tyres for street cars. All the wins gathered this way so far would count. All new achievements would too. All points could be accumulated, and if so desired, a leaderboard could be construed, too. In other words: a club where rules would be like the Stock 200 Points club, but aimed at being *more* realistic - and with no game-cheating allowed.

 

[Smallhorses]

So, to your mind RaidoGT, achieving maximum A-spec points within a forum that has no rules imposed on it from the start is cheating simply because it doesn't fit with your self-imposed rules? This is not your website, and thus you cannot apply your rules to everyone here when you come in 4 years after the game was released.

Similarly the forum rules such as the grammar rules that I've kindly alerted you to, are set by the site owner and you're bound by them when you post here as you agreed to them when you registered. I could've issued you with an official warning or infraction with regards to this, but felt you were probably mature enough to respond to a posted public warning instead. If you'd rather I pursue the more official channels in future, that's fine by me?
Again, these are not my rules, they're set forth in the Acceptable Use Policy, but as a staff member I'm tasked with enforcing those rules as and when I observe them being broken. If you feel I'm acting inappropriately here by doing my job and by not enforcing rules that don't exist within this forum because they suit your own opinion of how to play your game, then by all means go ahead and report me to the Admin staff (Duke or Der Alta) or the Site Owner himself (Jordan)

What then if we were to use a gameshark to set lap numbers to 1, drive 1 lap cleanly and achieve a 200 A-spec win. By your rationale that's not cheating because it's clean. I'd personally say that's worse than the wallbanging and AI smashing.

No-one has questioned the fact that it's accepted that dirty driving is, in-effect, cheating the game, and everyone who has achieved that total has never claimed anything otherwise either. It's widely accepted that to achieve the total one has to use devious tactics, and everyone has admitted that. Nowhere in the 200 point forum except for the Stock Car race comparison / challenge thread has it ever been declared that dirty driving is not permitted.

You need to get your head around the fact that people have used 111,813 A-spec points as an achievable goal in a game, just like some people went back to collect every single ring in a Sonic The Hedgehog game or every single power-up in a Tomb Raider game. It's not strictly necessary to do it, and no-one is saying that you have to do it.
What I think you're failing to realise is that these people do not rely solely on dirty driving to win races. All of them have reached a point in the game by driving cleanly, be that 80,000 points, 100% completion or whatever, but in order to maintain their own enjoyment of their own game, they've then set themselves the maximum A-spec target, whereupon dirty driving becomes necessary.

Now, if people like you or I who do not wish to use these tactics come in here and start trying to impose our own rules, as you're trying to do, then people butt heads, as is the case here. What you're saying is that nobody should have the right to choose whether they play their own game their own way. That's not for you to say. You are not Sony, PD or GTPlanet, if you were the game creator and made the game with your rules, then you could enforce those rules, but you're not.

If you wish to create your own thread for cleanly won 200 point A-spec races and a maximum total achievable without dirty tactics and with your own strict guidelines, then by all means go ahead within the regular GT4 forums and see what interest you get. I'd participate, I've already submitted a plethora of races to the Stock Car thread and posted a lot of video evidence to support my cleanliness where required, however, within this area of the forum, bar the Stock Car thread, the goal is getting 200 A-spec points by fair means or foul, and whether you happen to like it or not, that's how it is. As I've said, it's not your website to decide this. Perhaps you'd be better off within a site that has rules that suit your own tastes?

I find it hard to believe you've lasted as long as you have with this game, what with the "cheating" AI and all. Don't tell me you've never been punted into the sand by an AI driver that simply will not yield to your car that's clearly alongside and ahead of them? Or a car that's braking directly in front of them? Do you reset your races every time the AI makes contact with you? I seriously doubt this. How can you bear to be on track with such awful drivers?
Every driver that I know here has one method of "racing" for achieving their ultimate A-spec goal, and another for racing in LAN or online-environments where clearly posted rules are enforced. Take nige for example, he has achieved maximum A-spec total, but was also Div 1. WRS driver (a racing series with clearly defined and enforcable rules within it's own forum) with proof of his cleanliness.

It seems that you're unable to accept that people are able to play a "game" to their liking, however, and whatever that entails, be it dirty driving or not, but are fully capable of driving cleanly and properly when required.
We've seen you have your say over and over and over, and you're not telling us anything new each time. We understand your viewpoint, and it's an honourable one, but it doesn't belong here, in this thread or subforum, and continuing to repeat it here really isn't going to change a thing.

Now, if you're prepared to have a read of this and carefully point out to me where I'm failing in my enforcement of the non-existent dirty driving rules for I'd be most grateful.

 

[ABud]

To steer the conversation in a different direction...

I've recently got back into trying for Aspec (I've barely raced in a year or so, just tuned and tested), and I'd like a list of what I've seen called the 'bunny races' (IIRC).

I need to remember how to race but know I won't get it from the Opel cup or the 360 series. I want something relatively easy to win to get me back into the swing of things.

Unfortunately, my note-taking was not too good in the early days so I only know I have:
10xMissions=2500
FR beginner=1 or 1.2k
I think I finished FF=1 or 1.2k
most of MR=another 1k or so
Japan '80s most of=1k or so
Euro German B for about 160ea=1k or so
RAMmed a few Spec Cons=1k or so (this was long ago; now I know the error of my ways)
And thousands of points elsewhere that were not tracked.

I'd like suggestions for 200pt races that are easy to do and will get me back into the headspace of Aspec racing. For example, I've done very few of the manufacturers' races and none, IIRC, for maximum. And, for the record, consider me a driver that will use NOS but not wallriding or ramming. At least not for the next 50,000 or so Aspec.

Also, don't worry about suggesting 200pt Enduros, I'm working on that separately and have a good 40pp of data and notes.

Thanks in advance,

PF

Hi PF.

In another attempt to keep this going in sort of the right direction!

I know you said don't worry about the endurance events but they're a great way to get your head into racing again, clearly you can still drive anyways!

So hows about this one:

Endurance Races: Laguna Seca 200 miles/ Honda NSX-R Concept '01 (oil change, R1 tyres)/ MR/ 302BHP/ 1270kg/ 4.2kg/HP/ 200 A-spec points

It gives you the 200pts and a stock thread entry too:tup: Im pretty sure it'll be doable in the NSX-S as well if you want a bit more of a challenge.

Bud

 

[RaidoGT]

and thus you cannot apply your rules to everyone here when you come in 4 years after the game was released.

Ahem, you keep saying that they're just "my" rules. Not corner-cutting and no wallriding are the *default* rules for any type of (sim) racing that wants to take itself seriously at least a bit. I think I quoted enough quotes from others (thus, *not* me, for anyone not able to grasp the concept of self) to prove my point on that matter.

If you feel I'm acting inappropriately here by doing my job and by not enforcing rules that don't exist within this forum (..) then by all means go ahead and report me to the Admin staff

Of course not. I wouldn't report anyone to staff who is willing to stand up and not enforce rules that might be there, but aren't. Nulla poena, after all.

What then if we were to use a gameshark to set lap numbers to 1, drive 1 lap cleanly and achieve a 200 A-spec win. By your rationale that's not cheating because it's clean. I'd personally say that's worse than the wallbanging and AI smashing.

And I'd agree - to a point, in that sense that I think both situations constitute cheating the game and their results are therefore invalid. Just because corner-cutting/wallriding and AI-punting are dirty driving tactics, doesn't mean there aren't any more, of course. You could also start across the finish line, turn around beside the track and pass the startline again until it's the finish. That'd also be clean but rather devoid of real value.

No-one has questioned the fact that it's accepted that dirty driving is, in-effect, cheating the game, and everyone who has achieved that total has never claimed anything otherwise either. It's widely accepted that to achieve the total one has to use devious tactics,

Sure, I'm not saying people wouldn't come out with it and be frank. Nevertheless, coming out "I won by cheating the game..!" isn't exactly what you'd put up on a public forum - any "normal" forum where results are supposed to mean something, anyway.

As I said, doing it that way only proves that 111.813 is the theoretical maximum, but in terms of driving prowess, it's no more than that. The real challenge is finding out what the maximum points would be *without* cheating the game. 💡

What I think you're failing to realise is that these people do not rely solely on dirty driving to win races. All of them have reached a point in the game by driving cleanly,

No, I did realise that. In some rases, it's pretty obvious that you'd have to drive pretty well even to stay in the leading AI's wake. So I guesstimate that a lot of people here have won a large part of their races cleanly, by ability alone. However, that doesn't validate the non-clean drives in any way, shape or form.

What you're saying is that nobody should have the right to choose whether they play their own game their own way. That's not for you to say. You are not Sony,

Please don't put words in my mouth. I repeatedly said that people should play the game any way they want to.
I only said that if you want to *publically* announce an achievement in a forum, it'd better be a real and valid one.
Otherwise, Notepadding yourself to 111.813 points will be just as acceptable. Cheating the game is cheating the game, after all - heck, Notepadding may even be better, if only in terms of efficiency.

If you wish to create your own thread for cleanly won 200 point A-spec races and a maximum total achievable without dirty tactics and with your own strict guidelines, then by all means go ahead within the regular GT4 forums and see what interest you get. I'd participate,

Ok, if you think that'd be worthwhile as an new competition then it could be set up. I'd like an admin like *you*, who seems to at least appreciate the worth of a clean-driving stock car competition, to set it up as a thread, though.
Why? Simple: to find out if there's any interest in a 'most realistic' thread, instead of it being built on potential animosity between contestants. That wouldn't be a good way to start out. Better to have an admin with a serious interest in it boot it up.

Perhaps you'd be better off within a site that has rules that suit your own tastes?

Oh, you mean the majority of simracing sites? Been there, I just wanted to try GT4 as a diversion, since it had a few tracks and cars that no other game had (not even GPL with its 400+ circuits).

I find it hard to believe you've lasted as long as you have with this game, what with the "cheating" AI and all. Don't tell me you've never been punted into the sand by an AI driver

Oh, don't get me started. I've cursed those brainless AI silly, probably like the rest of you. They ain't even the worst in the business (I've seen racing games that are even worse in this respect), but they're pretty darn bad nonetheless. One simple rule to steer away from the player's car - as humans do - would've mostly fixed this.
I blame PD heavily for this one, though. *Four* versions of GT and they still couldn't code AI worth a peep. That's incompetence in my view, at least if you're claiming a "real" driving "simulator" (which it isn't).

maximum A-spec total, but was also Div 1. WRS driver (a racing series with clearly defined and enforcable rules within it's own forum) with proof of his cleanliness.

Well, like I said, it's not people's ability I questioned. It's the mindset of achieving part of their results dirty and then designating that the ultimate goal (since it seems nobody has yet proved it can be done otherwise. And if not, why not try that for a change? It's only an *additional* competition, after all).

Now, if you're prepared to have a read of this and carefully point out to me where I'm failing in my enforcement of the non-existent dirty driving rules for I'd be most grateful.

I humbly agree, you are totally blameless in this respect. However, with regard to the spirit of real competition, I wouldn't know if I'd regard that as being all that positive in this case

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Admittedly, on that last one it would have been better to insert a smiley afterwards. I could care less about getting to 'cease and desist' anything, but I haven't insulted anyone directly or personally.

To the contrary you have directly, repeatedly, and IMO personally insulted every person on the 200 pt. thread from front to back.
Left to even average deductability, if you haven't figured it out by now, social graces obviously aren't your strong point.

Telling other people how their conception of a dimension of this game they've been playing for 4 years is seriously flawed, is I guess, even though you know nothing about it.

Take up the challenge post#336 and find out what were talking about and then come back and post. If that doesn't open your eyes your a lost cause.

My apologies if I have - I never actually questioned the skillz of anybody in particular, but admit I tend to use rather sarcastic wit sometimes. If this was not taken as such, I should have worded it a bit more clearly.

No, you should stop the pompous ass posting on what you know nothing about and has no bearing in this forum, take up the challenge(post#336)and find out what were talking about, and then come back and post.

My word, if this wasn't so tragic, I think I'd quote this thread on some simracing forums since it'll be good for a laugh. Let me tell you mate, I've been an admin on other sites myself, and nowhere on any serious kind of forum cheating is actually propagated as a way to complete a game or competition.

And yes, AI-punting, corner-cutting and wallriding, no matter *how* you put it, constitute cheating in a racing game. Any five-year-old knows that in on-track racing, you're supposed to race *on the track*, (purposely designed to keep the cars from going anywhere, after all) and not somewhere alongside it, let alone bash from wall to wall to reach the finish line. I don't think I need to elaborate on the basic concept any further.
In other games, like Wipeout, Mario Kart or Midnight Club things may be different. But in GT4, it's obvious the driving/racing is supposed to be based on real life. Where wallbashing hurts, and deliberate corner-cutting causes DQ's. In all kinds of sims, as well, it's acknowledged that cheating is 'not done' unless you want to be designated a 'n00b' or a 'l0ser'. If it's any different here, the standards need to be raised somehow. 💡

And that's not because people's racing skills are flawed, but because the game is flawed (no damage and not enough penalties). However, if you want to have any kind of meaningful competition, then the basic rules will have to deal with that somehow, instead of supporting it.

No again. The game is not flawed. If you knew anything about KY and PD you would know he oversees every detail of the game. Its another challenge of the game that adds something, God forbid, outside your idea of "real racing". How dare him do such a thing.

Well in their case it's very simple: those results (at least the parts where cheating was applied) are invalid, period.
The only maximum result that has any value (at least in a racing game that's supposed to depict actual racing) is the maximum that can be achieved by driving like real racing, and not taking advantage of game-cheats to achieve better results.
The 111.800+ is therefore only a virtual artifice; a theoretical maximum instead of a realistic goal depicting people's driving skills (and no, wallbanging does *not* constitute a racing skill). Therefore, the real goal - for real racers - would be to figure out what the *actual* maximum is (under or above 100.000?); the person(s) that accrued the most points this way, are then on top of the leaderboard.

Again when you know something about what your talking about, come back and post.

Like I said before, I'm in no way opposed to anyone enjoying the game the way they want to. There's nothing wrong with (ab)using the game physics to have fun at home.
But if you want to post your results *publically* in a forum to depict personal achievements, you better make sure those are actually valid. And wallriding and/or corner-cutting rides are not and will never be, since they cheat the game/sim instead of playing it.

So you haven't insulted anyone?

I'm not going to repeat myself endlessly on this, since the point should be fairly clear by now. If you want to have any kind of serious racing competition, cheating will have to be disallowed.
If not, it has no point - we can all Notepad ourselves to 100.000+ points with much less effort, after all - but the end result would the same.

So you haven't insulted anyone?

Well, I respect those rules much more than the lack of them in other areas, naturally. That's a measure of real skill in virtual racing terms. (I've achieved some stock 200-pointers - cleanly of course - and anyone who did the same on the tougher ones deserves a good amount of respect.)

Well whoopeedoo. I guess thats what makes you such an expert on the subject.

Since that *also* constitutes a racing club over here (and since I don't want to just criticize over here without actually contributing any usable suggestions myself), I propose to graft its guidelines and use them anew.
To discuss a new competition: the Stock+ Realism Club. In there, you post your results only if you've managed to win a race *cleanly* and *realistically*. That is: stock cars, no downforce for non-racing cars, no driving aids, and realistic N2 tyres for street cars. All the wins gathered this way so far would count. All new achievements would too. All points could be accumulated, and if so desired, a leaderboard could be construed, too. In other words: a club where rules would be like the Stock 200 Points club, but aimed at being *more* realistic - and with no game-cheating allowed.

Several in the 100,000 point club, as well as some endeavoring to do so, have gained their points without NOS, some not shortcutting, or wallriding, or rough driving. They are admired and respected by all and to my knowledge none of them disrespects the max. point club members, knowing the latter is not achievable any other way. Both undertakings require considerable driving skill and again if you had bothered to find that out before condemning the whole 200 point thread you would realize what an ass you have made of yourself.


Sorry, but my wherewithall has deserted me. I've had about all of this I can take.

 

[Austin343]

AMG., I apologize in advance for not heeding your wish for this discussion not to continue. I would like to think of this post as an attempt to put out the "smoke" you mentioned before it becomes a flame war.

SCJ, I think you've gone a bit too far. I respect your perspective, but I believe you've been unfair to RaidoGT. First, he has consistently said that he doesn't mind people playing the game however they want, as long as they don't post it on a public forum. I don't agree with that at all, because GTP is a forum about a video game and not a simulator, but it still stands to reason that he does not object to what we're doing per se, but rather the fact that we post it here. Also, even though he hasn't tried the hard maximum-point races himself, I believe that he understands that they are not easy to win, even if he may disagree about calling what is required to win them "skill."

RaidoGT, it seems to me that you have something of a logical inconsistency in your argument in that you keep saying how GT4 is not actually a simulator (with which I agree), and yet treat it and the "rules" associated with it as if it were. I understand that it's because it purports to be a simulator that you think this way, but isn't it better just to accept that it isn't what it pretends to be and loosen up a bit with the "rules?"

Once again, I completely understand that you do not think this kind of driving worthy of a "simulator," and indeed, your rules are absolutely appropriate for a real, dedicated simulator. Just recognize that because GT4 really isn't one of those, and has an amount of gameplay that takes it beyond the realm of a traditional simulator, there is no reason to impose rules of clean driving on every race, all the time, regardless of the circumstances.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

AMG., I apologize in advance for not heeding your wish for this discussion not to continue. I would like to think of this post as an attempt to put out the "smoke" you mentioned before it becomes a flame war.

SCJ, I think you've gone a bit too far. I respect your perspective, but I believe you've been unfair to RaidoGT. First, he has consistently said that he doesn't mind people playing the game however they want, as long as they don't post it on a public forum. I don't agree with that at all, because GTP is a forum about a video game and not a simulator, but it still stands to reason that he does not object to what we're doing per se, but rather the fact that we post it here. Also, even though he hasn't tried the hard maximum-point races himself, I believe that he understands that they are not easy to win, even if he may disagree about calling what is required to win them "skill."

RaidoGT, it seems to me that you have something of a logical inconsistency in your argument in that you keep saying how GT4 is not actually a simulator (with which I agree), and yet treat it and the "rules" associated with it as if it were. I understand that it's because it purports to be a simulator that you think this way, but isn't it better just to accept that it isn't what it pretends to be and loosen up a bit with the "rules?"

Once again, I completely understand that you do not think this kind of driving worthy of a "simulator," and indeed, your rules are absolutely appropriate for a real, dedicated simulator. Just recognize that because GT4 really isn't one of those, and has an amount of gameplay that takes it beyond the realm of a traditional simulator, there is no reason to impose rules of clean driving on every race, all the time, regardless of the circumstances.

Forgive me, but on one point, I do not consider it "too far", "unfair", "unreasonable", or too much to ask, for someone to educate themselves "first hand", when declarations are obviously being made without the benefit thereof.

 

[RaidoGT]

has consistently said that he doesn't mind people playing the game however they want, as long as they don't post it on a public forum. I don't agree with that at all, because GTP is a forum about a video game and not a simulator, but it still stands to reason that he does not object to what we're doing per se, but rather the fact that we post it here.

That's the gist of it, yes - although with the note that it's not the posting of events as such I'd object to, but designating cheated-the-game events in such public posts as "wins" or "achievements".
After all, if that's the case, I'd have about 3463 race events to post about, all neatly Notepadded, crashed, wallridden, corner-cut and AI-punted to 1st place. Oh, if that had any value, I'd be the King... albeit in the land of the blind, naturally.

Also, even though he hasn't tried the hard maximum-point races himself, I believe that he understands that they are not easy to win, even if he may disagree about calling what is required to win them "skill."

Well, of course it's rather contradictory to call a game cheat a "skill", isn't it? The skill would be in being fast enough to keep up with the AI, not to then wallride past them to get into first place.
Note again, though, that if it's just not possible to get to 1st in some races, that's just GT4's programmer's faults (and beside this, game- and AI-wise they've made many).

(As for not trying all hard races, as I stated several times I tried GT4 as a fun diversion from GPL, not as a goal in itself. I never set out to drive *all* races in GT4 myself (..and if some are just not winnable by humanoids, not quite without good reason, I guess). To me, 200 points stock is the max you can do in GT4, and I've already done that multiple times. I pick the races I want to race, that's all - but then I do try to win them cleanly, and if possible using realistic (N2/street car) tyres.
Still, some people seem to want to push me into trying some kind of "challenge" instead of discussing this any further. To them I'd reply in similar manner and say "Sure, if you get the BRM negative in GPL first." - maybe interesting to try a simulator for a change.)

that you have something of a logical inconsistency in your argument in that you keep saying how GT4 is not actually a simulator (with which I agree), and yet treat it and the "rules" associated with it as if it were. I understand that it's because it purports to be a simulator that you think this way, but isn't it better just to accept that it isn't what it pretends to be and loosen up a bit with the "rules?"

You have a point there.
Still, after thinking about it for a bit: even in racing *games* instead of sims the general basic point still is to follow a set course and try to pass your opponents there, not drive around in the countryside somewhere (after all, if not, what's the point of having a track to race on in the first place? There are no point-to-point races in GT). And if wallriding was the point, wouldn't GT4 actually be an SF game like Wipeout or Rollcage, specifically designed to support it?

Surely it's not, it even tries to depict realism, but there, of course, is the catch. You *can* cheat it... but you could basically do that in any game or sim. As said, if that would be the point, why not just Notepad ourself to 1st place? It's much easier, and says just as much.

GT4 really isn't one of those, and has an amount of gameplay that takes it beyond the realm of a traditional simulator, there is no reason to impose rules of clean driving on every race, all the time, regardless of the circumstances.

Good point as well.
It is a game, even if it has some sim leanings in GT4. You could argue that some rules don't apply here... but then race wins would have no relation to driving skills in the traditional sense, since gaining max points would be the point, rather than outracing your opponents (as it is commonly understood). That could be done... but then in terms of 'driving' skill, announcing 'dirty' race wins would be automatically meaningless. You'd be a points gainer, but not a race winner.

But then, like you said, GT4 *is* also a "game" in a general sense. And in games in general, what's the point of accepting results if they're the result of game cheats? At the very least, that's not the general consensus in gaming.