Give us better sounds - PLEASE !!

[Dmarc_Atl]

What we are saying is: PD will only listen to people when their pockets will be effected.
Until then expect them to focus on photomode locations, paint chips, museum cards and every other sort of weird stuff, also using the multi million dollar budjet how the heck they want. Afterall Sony dictate sales not features, so...

No. The point is, if the same amount of people are going to buy the game anyway, why waste more money that can go to their paychecks, Sony or wherever, on what PD already believes it's good enough?

It just seems that PD thinks that the costumer is not always right, and their own judgement on the game is more important than the costumers', so the only way we can reach these corporations is by complaining less and take more action for what we want. I gues I can say, we need to "complain with our wallets" as a form of action.

Edit: Yep, exactly what HKS racer said.

Still it doesnt make sense at all.Why would they listen to us when we asked for damage,cockpit view,and super cars ferrari and lamborghini ( probably 10x the cost of replicating sounds ) but totally ignore us on sounds? Because we buy their game? Thats flat out not true because they listen to us even when their pockets are being effected positively.You guys completely took when he said the sounds are too real out of context.How about this,you connect your lawn chair to the back of your car and let somebody drive you around town I guarantee you will hear 80% wind 10% exhaust 10% misc sounds sorta like gt5 chase cam or the incredibly loud whine of a racing transmission in cockpit view.Thats the type of real I assume he meant, not real as in 100% identical to its counterpart or actual mechanical parts moving about inside and outside of the car.Hypothetically if they did think they sound too real they would still change it because we want them to, just like how they added damage when they really didnt want to but did so because we asked for it.
Dont get me wrong not buying the game to make a point could most definitely work, but that doesnt mean just because we automatically buy the game they wont listen to us.

 

[Wankelhead]

Still it doesnt make sense at all.Why would they listen to us when we asked for damage,cockpit view,and super cars ferrari and lamborghini ( probably 10x the cost of replicating sounds ) but totally ignore us on sounds? Because we buy their game? Thats flat out not true because they listen to us even when their pockets are being effected positively.You guys completely took when he said the sounds are too real out of context.How about this,you connect your lawn chair to the back of your car and let somebody drive you around town I guarantee you will hear 80% wind 10% exhaust 10% misc sounds sorta like gt5 chase cam or the incredibly loud whine of a racing transmission in cockpit view.Thats the type of real I assume he meant, not real as in 100% identical to its counterpart or actual mechanical parts moving about inside and outside of the car.Hypothetically if they did think they sound too real they would still change it because we want them to, just like how they added damage when they really didnt want to but did so because we asked for it.
Dont get me wrong not buying the game to make a point could most definitely work, but that doesnt mean just because we automatically buy the game they wont listen to us.

You can't really say for sure that listened to us when they added those things to the game. They migh have added those because, damage and cockpit view are now part of pretty much every single simulator out there, and PD might have wanted to get their game on par with those simulators, and the Ferrari and Lamborghini simply just to add to the game.

You might be right and I'm probably being quite unfair in saying PD doesn't care about us, the consumer, and just care about earning money. But I take a shot in saying they do, because unfortunatly that's what every single corporation seems to be doing, more and more. Microsoft with the XBox One sets a great example of that.

And in my opinion, PD by making DLC, they've already started as well.

I know people like it to keep the game fresh, but, the way I see it, it's not necessary if the game is well balanced in therms of gameplay (single player and multiplayer).

Games before didn't need DLC to last a long time, and if we wanted new content we could easly wait for the next, better game, because the games lasted long enough since developers actually cared to make the game good in therms of gameplay and replayability.

That's what I believe anyway.

About the sounds, I've already rode on the back of a sort of a buggy, and I assure you that the exhaust was pretty audible, and actually, an even better example would be a motorcicle. I once rode a dirtbike without a helmet and I could hear the exhaust perfectly fine, I'd say around 40% exhaust. And unlike GT5, the actual exhaust sound wasn't like a vaccum cleaner, the intake and the raspiness was there. This at around 50-70 km/h. Of course that with increased speed the less it's audible, and the wind becomes more prominent.

However that's not even it. If it was just the wind, the cars wouldn't sound the same when we're just reving the car when it is stopped, but they do.

About the cockpit of a race car (the transmition whine you mentioned) I can't really coment on that as I haven't driven nor have been a passenger in one. I believe the whine might be loud, and I don't discredit that it might be realistic like that in the game and that's about it for realism in sounds for me
This made me realise something, and it's a proof that they might really not be listening is that we still can't adjust the gear ratios without buying that noisy transmition.

I mean, in real life, we can adjust the gear ratios without having to buy a full race transmition, and we've already asked to be able to do that in the game for those who don't want to hear the noise, however...

It's that and the livery sistem, a color wheel to paint the cars insted of paint chips...
Hell, here's a full list of easy stuff they could've done but didn't: *EASY* things for PD to implement in GT5

As you can see, for each thing you say PD did because they heard us, you also have plenty more reasons to say they don't.

 

[Griffith500]

When I said memory, I meant RAM, not the harddrive or Bluray disc. Memory (as opposed to storage) is at a premium on PS3, as there's relatively little of it.

Sample data for all sounds must be kept in memory, or else you'll incur a delay in loading it in from storage, as happens when you change an exhaust after the track has loaded in GT5.

When I said intake, I meant the intake on the engine, where air goes into the engine. Whilst the two are connected (via the cylinders), you're unlikely to be able to hear the intake in the exhaust - at least it takes some determination to hear the effect of one on the other. I doubt you "added" intake sound to your 20b samples when it was already present in the recording because of the interior mic location.

Finally: Moontallico? I remember having this same discussion three years ago...

 

[Wankelhead]

When I said memory, I meant RAM, not the harddrive or Bluray disc. Memory (as opposed to storage) is at a premium on PS3, as there's relatively little of it.

Sample data for all sounds must be kept in memory, or else you'll incur a delay in loading it in from storage, as happens when you change an exhaust after the track has loaded in GT5.

When I said intake, I meant the intake on the engine, where air goes into the engine. Whilst the two are connected (via the cylinders), you're unlikely to be able to hear the intake in the exhaust - at least it takes some determination to hear the effect of one on the other. I doubt you "added" intake sound to your 20b samples when it was already present in the recording because of the interior mic location.

Finally: Moontallico? I remember having this same discussion three years ago...

Ohhh, but that's exaclty what I thought you meant with memory. Storage. You could have mentioned RAM in first place.
I understand what you mean with the loading delay. It does take some time to load the sounds after switching exhausts.
So, I believe you mean that samples must be relatively short and light (bytes wise) for the game to load them fast enough to play correctly when driving the car?
But for that, doesn't the game keep the samples for the chosen car seperatly on a temp location after they're loaded, to read them faster without needing to access the memory for them every time they're about to be used?
If so, it shouldn't be that hard on the RAM, unless it has to load multiple samples (for a race as an example).

But sure, I'm probably as wrong as I can be as I'm not that especialized on that matter. I just work around with what the PC simultors have to offer, I don't really have much knowledge on how the PS3 works, let alone on how PD program this stuff so...

About the intake, you are correct, the intake sound was on the video to begin with.
With added, I meant that I was able to make the intake sound to be heard. Not that I manualy added of intake to the sound sample. It might be possible, but I can't really do that.

And also finally: Yep, Moontallico here. However, I don't recall having this sort of discussion at all, much less with you, man. I only started working with PC sims sounds recently, so I really had nothing so say about this matter before. If you said a year ago, perhaps, sure. Three years? Not really.

 

[Griffith500]

All the possible required samples are kept in memory during a race, they are never swapped because it doesn't matter how small they are (I've tested it with samples on the order of tens of milliseconds) there will always be cases where that delay is audible in some way. That might be OK for some sounds, but for something that varies as quickly and continuously as a typical car engine sound, it's not really acceptable.

The PS3's harddisc and Bluray are never called memory, because that's not what they're used for; RAMspeaks for itself, although I appreciate this is a very specific context (even though it should be implicit on this forum), and they're only the English terms.

Regarding your samples, and I mean no offence, but they only manage to sound like that Youtube video; PD must cover a much wider range of sounds from the same car in different situations from different perspectives, all from one very limited set of samples.

As for the discussion, I meant more the general tone rather than RAM.

 

[Wankelhead]

All the possible required samples are kept in memory during a race, they are never swapped because it doesn't matter how small they are (I've tested it with samples on the order of tens of milliseconds) there will always be cases where that delay is audible in some way. That might be OK for some sounds, but for something that varies as quickly and continuously as a typical car engine sound, it's not really acceptable.

The PS3's harddisc and Bluray are never called memory, because that's not what they're used for; RAMspeaks for itself, although I appreciate this is a very specific context (even though it should be implicit on this forum), and they're only the English terms.

Regarding your samples, and I mean no offence, but they only manage to sound like that Youtube video; PD must cover a much wider range of sounds from the same car in different situations from different perspectives, all from one very limited set of samples.

As for the discussion, I meant more the general tone rather than RAM.

Thanks for the explanation

None taken. I actually took it as a compliment
With that said, I understand they do. A camera alone can't do much for sound capture, and Youtube makes it worse with it's compression.
And for me is really hard to find anything better, as I don't have the means nor the budget to go to Daytona to record myself. Not to mention that those won't be running anymore.

PD can do so much more than me with the sounds, but they seem to be limiting themselves, and seem plain lazy on the sound department, to me. :\
But if it is as you say, and it really is the memory (the lack of it), then what do you sugest they could do?

 

[Griffith500]

This concept of PD being lazy really needs to die. They are limited by lofty ambitions not translating well to what they have to work with, and by focusing on graphics (Premium cars in particular). Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Kaz recently said they are researching every day to improve the sounds; they are working on it. I think they should continue to work on it, something will come of it eventually.

Until then, let us customise our cars' sounds, so we can pick from samples we like. Make sure each sound is appropriate for the car, and things will be quite a bit better.
For PS4, all bets are off and I expect PD will impress greatly with the fruits of their research.

 

[The Flex]

I will have to cancel my preorder If I find out they have not vastly improved the quality of the sound. They mean alot for me.

 

[RattijuoppoFIN]

I am getting tired of these people who protect PD and go on with hush hush and pretend that the sound In modern Gran Turismos is even half decent. I mean the latest video of the Merc SLS GT3 at least showed that they do not have the slightest desire to create realistic or even slightly accurate sounds to their cars in game. That damn Merc sounds like a Nissan V6. And if you rage to me and think that the final game is gonna be any better, you are mistaken.

 

[RattijuoppoFIN]

It's still not required to make the cars sound decently realistic. PC sims can pull it off with 3 to 4 samples.

I completely Agree. Having fiddeling with the Enduracers mod on Rfactor, I can say that the degree of realism and fidelity of the sounds is astonishing. And this is done mostly with 6-10 samples of the car. Sometimes less. So if real low budget privateer modders can do it why the hell one of the most well financed gaming studios can't?

Edit. Sorry for the double post. I will shut up now.

 

[R5]

I am getting tired of these people who protect PD and go on with hush hush and pretend that the sound In modern Gran Turismos is even half decent. I mean the latest video of the Merc SLS GT3 at least showed that they do not have the slightest desire to create realistic or even slightly accurate sounds to their cars in game. That damn Merc sounds like a Nissan V6. And if you rage to me and think that the final game is gonna be any better, you are mistaken.

I will shut up now.

All I'm gonna say is they don't deserve THIS MUCH crap. It's very hard making a game, maps, collision boundaries, lighting, modelling of cars, track-side decoration, sky-boxes, coding, physics code and getting rid of bugs will have been higher on their priority list than making the few happy. So what if a car sounds off, it doesn't subtract from all the other work. And can I also say, if you don't like the sounds, switch them off and just listen to the BGM. Simple fix, albeit to a problem that shouldn't exist...

 

[Griffith500]

I am getting tired of these people who protect PD and go on with hush hush and pretend that the sound In modern Gran Turismos is even half decent. I mean the latest video of the Merc SLS GT3 at least showed that they do not have the slightest desire to create realistic or even slightly accurate sounds to their cars in game. That damn Merc sounds like a Nissan V6. And if you rage to me and think that the final game is gonna be any better, you are mistaken.

We haven't heard the sounds made for that car, that will probably have to wait until PS4. The samples used sound like they're from an Aston Martin V12 (debuted in GT3 on the Vanquish, one of the better sounding cars in that game), which of course is worrying. But if the sound team are focused on PS4, I guess we'll have to deal with another round with interns at the helm...

 

[Wankelhead]

This concept of PD being lazy really needs to die. They are limited by lofty ambitions not translating well to what they have to work with, and by focusing on graphics (Premium cars in particular). Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Kaz recently said they are researching every day to improve the sounds; they are working on it. I think they should continue to work on it, something will come of it eventually.

Until then, let us customise our cars' sounds, so we can pick from samples we like. Make sure each sound is appropriate for the car, and things will be quite a bit better.
For PS4, all bets are off and I expect PD will impress greatly with the fruits of their research.

Hmmm..
I just said what transpired to me.
And how can you tell for sure that they're being limited by "lofty ambitions not translating well to what they have to work with"?
For all we know they could just really be focusing on the graphics, physics and GT Academy, and be neglecting the sounds.

About Kaz saying "we are researching every day to improve the sounds", can you show me exactly where he says that?
I'm the kind of guy who's for "pics or didn't happen". I just like to see facts backed with proof, that's all.

If it's true, I might consider GT7 for PS4.
Since it's a RAM issue, then by the time GT7 comes, PD must be able to finally deliver great sounds.

As for customising cars' sounds, that'd be a wierd feature, but I would welcome it. Though, if they don't allow engine swaps, I doubt they'd create such a feature. As it kind of is the same. No?
I mean, each car makes it's own characteristic sound, and that car and everything about it is bound to the manufacturer, so I believe that at least sound changes between brands is off limits.
But what about manufacturers with a single car ingame? Those couldn't be costumized. (Yes, I'm might be seriously exagerating here. But now a days, even the smallest thing can be a source of problems, so I'm not discarting this or any situation.)

All I'm gonna say is they don't deserve THIS MUCH crap. It's very hard making a game, maps, collision boundaries, lighting, modelling of cars, track-side decoration, sky-boxes, coding, physics code and getting rid of bugs will have been higher on their priority list than making the few happy. So what if a car sounds off, it doesn't subtract from all the other work. And can I also say, if you don't like the sounds, switch them off and just listen to the BGM. Simple fix, albeit to a problem that shouldn't exist...

It's necessary crap. It's plain criticism, man.
I'm not going to say it's not hard to make a game. I already do sound mods for rFactor and did a conversion of a model of a car from one PC sim to the other, and that alone was pretty hard. I can easily imagine how hard it is to create a full game, and the amount of work, time and dedication that people need to put to do so.
Still doesn't mean they don't need this criticizing to do even better. We just want PD to step their game up and get it on par with other simulators out there, which are surpassing them.

 

[Griffith500]

See this post for the word straight from the horse's mouth.

Sound customisation is pretty commonplace in real life. The samples already exist for the most part, it could just be a case of selecting them from a list.

 

[R5]

There's CRITICISM and then there's just PATHETIC MOANING, main examples "Not buying unless cars sound right", "Cars don't sound right. THEY NEED TO SOUND RIGHT TO COMPLETE THE GAME. EVEN IF IT HAS A LOAD OF GLITCHES AND CRAPPY GRAPHICS!" And my personal favourite from a friend "Man, I'm switching to Forza 5 because of the sounds" when he was judging from gameplay videos where the sound isn't very clear and there is also time to clear it up. PD know there is a problem with the sounds, they want to improve it (see HSV010) and Kaz even brought it up in an interview with a certain Mr. Greer. They KNOW there is a problem, but at the same time, they're focusing on the bigger stuff that people are complaining about such as bugs, AI, jagged edges on cars etc. etc.

Edit: the interview

https://www.gtplanet.net/gran-turis...e-kazunori-yamauchis-2012-gtplanet-interview/

 

[Wankelhead]

See this post for the word straight from the horse's mouth.

Sound customisation is pretty commonplace in real life. The samples already exist for the most part, it could just be a case of selecting them from a list.

Thanks!

There's CRITICISM and then there's just PATHETIC MOANING, main examples "Not buying unless cars sound right", "Cars don't sound right. THEY NEED TO SOUND RIGHT TO COMPLETE THE GAME. EVEN IF IT HAS A LOAD OF GLITCHES AND CRAPPY GRAPHICS!" And my personal favourite from a friend "Man, I'm switching to Forza 5 because of the sounds" when he was judging from gameplay videos where the sound isn't very clear and there is also time to clear it up. PD know there is a problem with the sounds, they want to improve it (see HSV010) and Kaz even brought it up in an interview with a certain Mr. Greer. They KNOW there is a problem, but at the same time, they're focusing on the bigger stuff that people are complaining about such as bugs, AI, jagged edges on cars etc. etc.

Edit: the interview

https://www.gtplanet.net/gran-turis...e-kazunori-yamauchis-2012-gtplanet-interview/

For the people of the 1st and 3rd complaints, the game is probably already good at everything except the sounds, and that is actually a pretty common complaint and still valid criticim.
If people are complaining more about something is because it is what stands out more from all the other things, and in my opinion, just because there are other (maybe bigger) problems, that shouldn't be neglected.
If people don't see changes on the one department they see as faulty, then it's only natural they feel like moving on to a different game.

The 2nd one does sound really stupid, as, just as I previously said, the game should evolve equally on every single aspect and not have focus on just one problem.


This is just really a matter of oppinion though. Some consider it more important than others, so complaining about complainers is pretty much useless here.

I do agree with you in this - the HSV010 was indeed a step on the right direction. I just wonder if PD considers that step as making the sounds more realistic or sexier.

 

[R5]

The thing is, none are truly valid yet.


As I have said before. We shall wait for the demo, and full game. No?

 

[GTHEAD87]

I watched a video of the quattro and it had sound, not the best but enought to hear it. It ain't no group b sound, might be the video quality. Hope its the video quality.

 

[Wankelhead]

The thing is, none are truly valid yet.


As I have said before. We shall wait for the demo, and full game. No?

Indeed, you're right.
And I must add that people are really quick to judge.
But I guess that's happening in this case because people stopped trusting in PD.
Maybe they'll start trusting again when the demo comes out and it's sounds (and other stuff like the AI too) are better.
However, even then people can't really judge the full game based on it.
I'm sure it'll be different, just like GT5 ended up being different from GT5P. If it's going to be better or worse, that'll depend on PD.

Though, if the problem really is what Griffith says, then we really shoudn't expect any sound improvements for GT6. So, while not trully vallid, there's still some foundation to them.

 

[Nomad1]

I watched a video of the quattro and it had sound, not the best but enought to hear it. It ain't no group b sound, might be the video quality. Hope its the video quality.

It uses the same sound sample as the skyline R34 gtr.

 

[RattijuoppoFIN]

MAN! I have to comment on this again.

I mean here goes the aggressive protectors of PD again. I really think it is time to stop ignoring clear facts. Anyone who says that the sounds on the SLS GT3 are accurate are just plain wrong. It sounds like a V6 nissan, nothing like the real car. And this is true for most cars in Gran Turismo. The sound for the most part of GT franchise at least the modern GT:s is way off were it should be. And as history has shown they most likely are also on GT6.

You cannot just make an argument that boast me being an idiot for whining over the sounds just because they are from a youtube video. Yes PD is working hard on the GT6 but they're simple being lazy sound wise. And I think that's something that is unacceptable from a modern AAA title.

 

[Johnnypenso]

MAN! I have to comment on this again.

I mean here goes the aggressive protectors of PD again. I really think it is time to stop ignoring clear facts. Anyone who says that the sounds on the SLS GT3 are accurate are just plain wrong. It sounds like a V6 nissan, nothing like the real car. And this is true for most cars in Gran Turismo. The sound for the most part of GT franchise at least the modern GT:s is way off were it should be. And as history has shown they most likely are also on GT6.

You cannot just make an argument that boast me being an idiot for whining over the sounds just because they are from a youtube video. Yes PD is working hard on the GT6 but they're simple being lazy sound wise. And I think that's something that is unacceptable from a modern AAA title.

Maybe the aggressive protectors just don't care as much about the sound as you do. Not everyone has the same priorities as you. I see people commenting on things like 2D trees and "standard tracks" and I never even noticed what it is they are talking about.

 

[Jav]

MAN! I have to comment on this again.

I mean here goes the aggressive protectors of PD again. I really think it is time to stop ignoring clear facts. Anyone who says that the sounds on the SLS GT3 are accurate are just plain wrong. It sounds like a V6 nissan, nothing like the real car. And this is true for most cars in Gran Turismo. The sound for the most part of GT franchise at least the modern GT:s is way off were it should be. And as history has shown they most likely are also on GT6.

Lol!! PD's sound department is just plain pathetic:



Yeah, I can't wait to see an argument against that...

 

[RattijuoppoFIN]

Lol!! PD's sound department is just plain pathetic:

YOUTUBE Video

Yeah, I can't wait to see an argument against that...

Now this is just what I am ranting about. It is true that others may not have
the same interests as I do in a GT game, but for someone to say that
sounds are good or accurate in GT's are just WRONG! If the issue was something
physics or graphics related everyone would be grudging against it.

EDIT: Go watch the videos in Youtube via the link if they are not working.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Now this is just what I am ranting about. It is true that others may not have
the same interests as I do in a GT game, but for someone to say that
sounds are good or accurate in GT's are just WRONG! If the issue was something
physics or graphics related everyone would be grudging against it.EDIT: Go watch the videos in Youtube via the link if they are not working.

Because those are the things many people care about much more than sounds.

 

[CarBastard]

If I may chime in, I'm also against the "HATE ALL PD SOUNDS" camp, but neither can I defend the quality of PDs sounds. I enjoyed a couple of new sound samples in GT5 and thought they improved over GT4 which doesn't mean however that the overall sound in the game is any good. And honestly, I think sound can be just as important as graphics. It all adds to the immersion factor, and I can't feel immersed driving a racing car when it sounds like a synthezised sample of a vaccum cleaner.

I do think though that the game's quality doesn't depend entirely on the quality of the audio and that the circumstances we've seen so far aren't proof that sounds are gonna be great or awful. We'll have to wait until we can have a definite word on the sounds of GT5 and then, I still think we'll be enjoying the game and forgiving it's faulty sounds in virtue of other things PD knows how to do well.

 

[Imari]

Sound is a big deal, especially with higher powered and race cars. The noise of race cars in real life at a circuit is a big part of the entertainment. How fun would it be if they all silently swished around the track?

The roar of a Ferrari, the bellow of a Mercedes, these are big parts of their appeal. When I hear an SLS in game, I want to feel like I can hear the power behind it, even at low volumes. Some games do this, you can hear the grunt of muscle cars, you can hear the scream from the V12s.

GT does very little of this. It's extremely poor at evoking any of the emotion that is felt when listening to a real car. Maybe they're technically very similar to the real noise, but the sound has to be interpreted through the human brain. And to my human brain, the noises GT makes are nothing like a real car.

Great graphics sell a game, mostly from the "wow, that's awesome" factor. Really great sounds could do the same. They have the same capacity for generating emotion in the audience.

 

[Wankelhead]

^I agree with every word.

 

[R5]

I agree, the sounds aren't their best. But that's not to say they're the be-all and end-all of a good game. If for GT6, they took the first patch GT5, changed the sounds and left everything else, the Internet would be seriously pissed.

Some do sound brilliant, too. GT40 racer, BMW Z4, GT86 with semi-racing exhaust, Ferrari F10. These cars are just epic sounds yet no one wants to hear this. What I'm saying is this, like them or loathe them, not all GT5 sounds are bad.

 

[Imari]

Some do sound brilliant, too. GT40 racer, BMW Z4, GT86 with semi-racing exhaust, Ferrari F10. These cars are just epic sounds yet no one wants to hear this. What I'm saying is this, like them or loathe them, not all GT5 sounds are bad.

Oh, I agree. There are good sounding cars in there. Just as the games that have pretty good sounds inevitably have a few that are bad.

Still, pick a car at random from GT5 and your chances are pretty high that you'll have one that sounds uninspiring. This is what we mean by a good or bad sounding game, on average the sounds in GT5 are...below average.

It's easy to get one or two cars right and fudge all the rest. It's harder to have sounds at a consistently high level throughout the game.

Your examples prove that PD has the capability. They just need to execute.