Give us better sounds - PLEASE !!

[RedBaron]

Like in every business it is not important how many shorts you sweath through, but how many goals you score. And PD's goals in sound department are poor at best.

They prove it by dubbing their own trailers...

...with generic V6 humming for Quattro S1 and SLS AMG GT3. Please listen.

 

[R5]

Wait, are you serious? I don't even know how to respond to this.

How about just laying it to rest. I am being serious, and if you call me wrong, I can prove it. As for outsourcing. Easier said than done.

 

[Cosbuster]

How about just laying it to rest. I am being serious, and if you call me wrong, I can prove it. As for outsourcing. Easier said than done.

There's nothing to prove wrong because you're not making any sense to begin with. You're saying we shouldn't complain about a product's lack of quality because of the employee's health. I don't see the correlation between proper results and an endangered health if one is really qualified to do a job, especially one that isn't rocket science and is being done properly for the majority of games of the genre since 15 years ago with 1/10th of the budget and time PD has.

they'd have to do a lot of travelling meaning less time at home and probably less happiness.

A paid travel from your company that gets you away from the office for some sound recording? The horror!

 

[R5]

There's nothing to prove wrong because you're not making any sense to begin with. You're saying we shouldn't complain about a product's lack of quality because of the employee's health. I don't see the correlation between proper results and an endangered health if one is really qualified to do a job, especially one that isn't rocket science and is being done properly for the majority of games of the genre since 15 years ago with 1/10th of the budget and time PD has.

Well… employees being away from families for prolonged amounts of time will have an effect on their mentalities, the computer screens will burn away at their eyes and they will grow more and more and more tired as the days move on.

As for being done properly. I suspect you mean with proper samples, now, I'm just going to put a question to you; if the sounds DO get improved, what'll be the next thing to complain about? It's a negative snowballing as one thing improves, people find another thing, and another, and another, and another...

And another question, out of curiosity more than anything else, why do they use samples anyway if they record cars sounds in the first place…?

 

[Cosbuster]

Well… employees being away from families for prolonged amounts of time will have an effect on their mentalities, the computer screens will burn away at their eyes and they will grow more and more and more tired as the days move on.

Then perhaps they should have found a different line of work? And who says they'll be away for long periods of time or whether they even like traveling or not or whether they have families? You're just dramatizing it for the hell of it. If I can't do my job properly or can't be arsed because I don't like it, they find somebody else instead of having the final product suffer because of me.

As for being done properly. I suspect you mean with proper samples, now, I'm just going to put a question to you; if the sounds DO get improved, what'll be the next thing to complain about? It's a negative snowballing as one thing improves, people find another thing, and another, and another, and another...

So, we shouldn't improve one of the major issues of the game since its release 15 years ago because some people might complain about something else next? That's the most ridiculous thing I've read around these parts. With that kind of thinking, we'd be stuck in the 70s. While we're at it, let's downgrade everything in the game so people will be confused as to what to complain about. You have to be trolling or at least I hope so.

 

[R5]

Then perhaps they should have found a different line of work? And who says they'll be away for long periods of time or whether they even like or not or whether they have families? You're just dramatizing it for the hell of it. If I can't do my job properly I get fired. If I can't stand my job I quit.

So, we shouldn't improve one of the major issues of the game because some people might complain about something else next? That's the most ridiculous thing I've read around these parts. While we're at it, let's downgrade everything in the game so people will be confused as to what to complain about.

Well, to my first point. I urge you to read this

http://www.topgear.com/uk/photos/kazunori-yamauchi-interview-gran-turismo-5?imageNo=7

He says he spent little time at home there.

As for my second point, you don't understand it. I'm saying changing sounds is all well and good, but there are surely more aspects to consider before the sounds. People will complain about AI, I know I've complained about the user BGM many times before; and the online system; and loading times. Just fix the more important stuff first, which they're likely to do, even though Kaz is a huge car fan, he still has to make the game playable.

 

[Cosbuster]

Well, to my first point. I urge you to read this

http://www.topgear.com/uk/photos/kazunori-yamauchi-interview-gran-turismo-5?imageNo=7

He says he spent little time at home there.

Is this the correct article? They said it took 3-4 days to map the track and he didn't drive the reasonably priced car...you point being?

As for my second point, you don't understand it. I'm saying changing sounds is all well and good, but there are surely more aspects to consider before the sounds. People will complain about AI, I know I've complained about the user BGM many times before; and the online system; and loading times. Just fix the more important stuff first, which they're likely to do, even though Kaz is a huge car fan, he still has to make the game playable.

GT5 had many things wrong with it and we would expect the major ones to be fixed for a sequel after 3 years, is that irrational? Otherwise just release DLC for what we have if the major problems remain. You might not think the sounds important but that doesn't say anything in a thread for the people that find the sounds a large issue. Moreover, large development teams have many departments. What the sound department does is usually irrelevant to what the AI department does and so on.

 

[R5]

PD isn't a large team really.


And yes, I think that is the wrong article.

 

[Griffith500]

Like in every business it is not important how many shorts you sweath through, but how many goals you score. And PD's goals in sound department are poor at best.


...with generic V6 humming for Quattro S1 and SLS AMG GT3. Please listen.

That football analogy doesn't even work for football...

This a typical example of ignorance not getting in the way of having an opinion. You've had a thought and, without regard to whether you even have a clue what you're talking about, you're going to state it matter-of-fact as though it should be taken seriously!

You know nothing of PD's goals in any department, and only a fool draws conclusions on something from an absence of evidence of that thing.

Finally, your examples are not generic anything, they are specific samples that already exist in GT5 - the first clearly being an RB26 and the latter indeterminable from the quality avaible. So you try listening.

Noone should be saying the sounds are acceptable, and I don't think anyone is.

 

[BRADZZZ11]

I didn't realise so many people on this forum were experts on Kaz's life, as well as PD's lifestyles too.

 

[theofilosz]

Like in every business it is not important how many shorts you sweath through, but how many goals you score. And PD's goals in sound department are poor at best.


...with generic V6 humming for Quattro S1 and SLS AMG GT3. Please listen.

As I wrote above I would be happy if they added at least generic but correct engine sounds, for now. Than they can slowly start doing that for each car with it's own engine sound progressively. For example they get a generic sound that sounds good for all the V8 all V12 etc.

The fact that they changed the sounds, proves that they know their sounds are in the majority of the cars horrible.

 

[TheGTGuy]

The problem with the sound is the PS3 hardware limitations. PD focus more on Physics,Refraction,Lighting,adaptive tessalation, etc, leaving little room for Sound, while they can be improved its quite difficult to completely change them to how they should really sound. PS4 will be a lot easier to develop for and had a lot more RAM so there should be no limitations.

 

[Griffith500]

They know it needs work, yes. They've probably been working on it for years, as the sound engine has seen considerable improvement, but the samples have stayed the same.

It's not the sound department's fault the overall focus has lain elsewhere. The biggest mistake this gen appears to be trying to prepare for the next gen, i.e. the Premium cars. If they were less detailed, there'd have been more RAM to play with and maybe sounds would have been improved on PS3 instead of, as seems likely, PS4.

We should try to remember that PD were playing the long (/ "soon") game this gen.

 

[theofilosz]

Sorry but I disagree completely. They must have a wrong way to get samples or balancing the sounds from different areas. Some cars actually sound very good! A good engine sound with a bad engine sound won't have any big impact on the hardware since they are of the same recording quality.

 

[Griffith500]

Sorry but I disagree completely. They must have a wrong way to get samples or balancing the sounds from different areas. Some cars actually sound very good! A good engine sound with a bad engine sound won't have any big impact on the hardware since they are of the same recording quality.

False. Samples are reworked recordings, processed into a loop of finite length. For something like engines, those loops need to be long otherwise it sounds thin. The samples in GT5 are roughly of a length designed to fit in the original PS's RAM. There's about 5 times as many samples (just counting engine sounds) being loaded in GT5, and they'll be closer to the quality (bitrate) of the original recordings than on PS (GT2), though.

There is, though, the issue of missing sounds in your recordings or systematically omitting it in processing them (e.g. intake). But that detail, going by the way PD model sound sources on a car (i.e. correctly), would require extra samples.

 

[KinLM]

:facepalm: Do you think stuff like this gets said on other gaming forums?

If pd can't handle to do what is supposed to be their job, simulating the racing experience, they should probably hire more employees. Last time I checked, they had less then half of what turn 10 has, and if this is effecting the outcome of the game, they really should hire more.

You say that as if it's that easy to just hire 150 people like that.

You realize that you have to get each one acquainted with the office and what specifically to do?

And pay each person?

And manage each person to make sure they're doing their job?

Furthermore you have to make sure they're actually good in the area they're working in.

And fire them if they aren't.

And you have to figure out who to hire in the first place because its not like each area of development needs the same number of people.

All the while you still need to be developing the game so people won't talk about how incomplete it is, even though they will anyways despite any good additions you've added to the game because people always have personal preferences on what they want to see improved most so even if you make a perfectly balanced game, most people will still complain about the physics or the AI or the customization or the cars or something.

Meanwhile over at The-Company-That-Shall-Remain-Nameless, despite the fact that they have twice as many people as you(this isn't counting the 150 or so people you just magically hired) they still outsource their cars to Dhurvi (sorry if the name is wrong, can't remember who it is off the top of my head) meaning that even if you hire those 150 people flawlessly, you still are going to be behind since your competition don't have to worry about modeling many (if not all) of the cars!

So now you have a choice. Do you want to outsource?

If not then you'd better start working! (Though personally I wouldn't outsource either)

If so, then you have to find a trustable company who will do a good job and do it quickly and accurately.

Did I mention you also have to pay them?

Now, that may not seem like a big deal, all this money. These games make tons of money, especially GT! So who cares?

Well, big boss cares! Considering your whole company is owned by Sony, you have to be careful about how much money you spend! Because all they have to do is say "you're costing us way too much, you sold 10,000,000 copies of each game before with just your 150 or so workforce, so what justifies all this massive increase in spending when you were fine before?

Your game comes out and despite it being the best one in the series with massive upgrades in all areas, people still complain. "You took out my favorite car! Why didn't you model ALL the standard cars? You're so lazy! I hate this! Not enough customization! Why didn't you include the Chevy Echo?! It's my car in real life so how come you all were too lazy to include it?

Then Big Boss Sony calls you in for a meeting over the game.

"You're done, people still don't like the game and it's hardly selling more than the last one. That's it, we're pulling the plug and finding somebody who can do it for cheaper so we at Sony can make more profit.

And then you're out of your job making no games and nobody cares still because despite your best efforts people are still just complaining about every little thing wrong with your game, saying things like "I'm glad PD's out of business. They never made anything but crap! This last game might be better but I wanted even MORE cars! And they didn't even include Unheard-Of Raceway Park! What :censored:s!"

It really isn't so simple.

On a personal note, I find it absolutely incredible that PD can even turn out a product remotely near as good as their rivals on the Xbox when you consider all that.

I really dislike the sound as well, honestly I hate it when I could turn on my Xbox and hear roaring V8's and screaming V12's, and a small workforce is no excuse for these things. But you all seem to think that the problem is far simpler than it is.

 

[Metfanant]

The problem with the sound is the PS3 hardware limitations. PD focus more on Physics,Refraction,Lighting,adaptive tessalation, etc, leaving little room for Sound, while they can be improved its quite difficult to completely change them to how they should really sound. PS4 will be a lot easier to develop for and had a lot more RAM so there should be no limitations.

crap excuse really...the PS3 hardware is not holding back the sound quality at all...

 

[Griffith500]

crap excuse really...the PS3 hardware is not holding back the sound quality at all...

What makes you say that?

 

[KinLM]

What makes you say that?

Its sorta true might be why.

 

[Cosbuster]

What makes you say that?

Isn't it clear? When

a)Hardware of the previous generation can give you better results

and

b)Different developers with the same hardware can give better results

plus

c)Some cars in Gt5 actually sound decent


It's pretty clear that the hardware is not to blame.

 

[Griffith500]

Its sorta true might be why.

See, what I'm looking for is actual elaboration to explain the reasoning behind the conclusion, not "just because".

Any thoughts?

Isn't it clear? When

a)Hardware of the previous generation can give you better results

and

b)Different developers with the same hardware can give better results

plus

c)Some cars in Gt5 actually sound decent


It's pretty clear that the hardware is not to blame.

So all of those games you didn't mention were exactly the same as GT5?

 

[theofilosz]

Explain to me why Mazda 787b sounds so close like the real car. Doesn't the hardware have a problem there?

 

[Cosbuster]

So all of those games you didn't mention were exactly the same as GT5?

what..? Same? I don't get it.

 

[Griffith500]

Explain to me why Mazda 787b sounds so close like the real car. Doesn't the hardware have a problem there?

I don't think it does, actually. It's missing intake sounds and the short loop is irritatingly repetitive. The idle is good, but that doesn't get the abuse the other samples get and ported rotaries have an almost perfectly rhythmic brap that works well as a short loop.

Most of the exhaust sounds are OK in and of themselves, but it's the context, e.g. wrong car, missing intake etc. that lets them down, along with the audible looping and strange blending of mismatched samples for artificially increasing variety.

@Cosbuster: unless those games are the same as GT5, they won't use available resources in the same way. I've already explained why I blame the Premiums, in part, for the use of tiny samples.

 

[Cosbuster]

@Cosbuster: unless those games are the same as GT5, they won't use available resources in the same way. I've already explained why I blame the Premiums, in part, for the use of tiny samples.

I thought we were talking about hardware limitations no? Resource allocation is an entirely different thing and a problem with the developer. The hardware can produce good sounds as other developers have proven. If PD chooses to use it in a way that we cannot have good sounds, it's not the hardware's fault in any way.


It's also not the harware's fault that many cars have samples from wrong engines.

 

[KinLM]

See, what I'm looking for is actual elaboration to explain the reasoning behind the conclusion, not "just because".

Any thoughts?

So all of those games you didn't mention were exactly the same as GT5?

How's about you explain to us how a good sample takes up more ram than a bad sample. No matter how they sound, they're still both samples.

 

[Griffith500]

I thought we were talking about hardware limitations no? Resource allocation is an entirely different thing and a problem with the developer. The hardware can produce good sounds as other developers have proven. If PD chooses to use it in a way that we cannot have good sounds, it's not the hardware's fault in any way.


It's also not the harware's fault that many cars have samples from wrong engines.

No, the misunderstanding is yours: RAM is both hardware and a resource. Obviously the hardware can produce quality sound because 44kHz 16bit PCM has been standard for 20 years. Game sound quality has only slowly improved in that time, and is nowhere near finished because interactively generated audio is orders of magnitude more complex than a recording.

The dev choices are relevant, but for the game PD tried to make, the hardware was a big problem. Hence saying other devs can do it, in this case, is not that useful, because it's not apples to apples.

 

[Cosbuster]

No, the misunderstanding is yours: RAM is both hardware and a resource. Obviously the hardware can produce quality sound because 44kHz 16bit PCM has been standard for 20 years. Game sound quality has only slowly improved in that time, and is nowhere near finished because interactively generated audio is orders of magnitude more complex than a recording.

The dev choices are relevant, but for the game PD tried to make, the hardware was a big problem. Hence saying other devs can do it, in this case, is not that useful, because it's not apples to apples.

So in the end:

a)They proceeding with the game they had in mind anyway without properly planning and investigating whether the hardware was really adequate for it.

b)The game they had in mind didn't include good sounds.


I think both along with the in-between variations are pretty bad for one of the most popular and very profitable gaming series.

 

[Griffith500]

How's about you explain to us how a good sample takes up more ram than a bad sample. No matter how they sound, they're still both samples.

Sample length. They loop. Short samples with only very minor fluctuations in timbre, pitch etc. will still be obviously looping. In order to avoid that you have to find a loop that has less variation. The result of which is a very plain, thin, synthetic sound. It's very easy to test for yourself with an audio editing tool.
The only real fix, for this type of sampling is to use longer samples - much longer, over 10 seconds is becoming the norm.

If you use a different sampling regime, things are different. I've used millisecond scale samples to produce a more naturally varying timbre and greater flexibility in customisation.

The resources for that are just redistributed, what you save on RAM you pay for with bandwidth and calculations.

 

[R5]

How's about you explain to us how a good sample takes up more ram than a bad sample. No matter how they sound, they're still both samples.

Though I do (maybe stupidly) support PD, I agree with this.