Give us better sounds - PLEASE !!

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There are numerous shortcomings in the approach. That people do well to circumvent that to an extent does not diminish the fact that such crude sampling is deprecated and will in short order no longer be the norm.

Do yourself, and me, a favour and watch the talk given by the T10 sound guy that was linked to earlier in the thread, then tell me how easy it is. Sampling is not a reflection of reality, or rather that's all it is - a series of mirrors positioned so that it gives the impression of looking right, but if you move just to the side slightly, it all falls apart. That you can't recognise this is lamentable, that I can't properly illustrate it is even more so.

If you're just recycling the tired old argument about GT5 having poor samples, then we know already, and you're missing the point completely by banging on that same old drum after it has been made clear that PD are doing something about it. Precisely what they're doing is obviously beyond you, and my attempts to illuminate the possibilities even only slightly are only met with the usual technophobia.

God dammit! I've seen how the sound implementation works in Rf. It is simple as can be, yet there are cars that sound nothing short of amazing with only simple recording and whatnot. I do not need your damn interviews of some developer.

If this level of sound quality can be achieved without expensive editing or "simulation" there is no reason why high resource companies like turn10 or PD can't do the same. PERIOD.

Doesn't matter if you have other thoughts. Yes some new games have highly developed and complex sound engines, but if the base recordings of the sample is neglected or poorly done, editing cannot save the end result as seen with GT5. You can ask any professional.

No I am not gonna waste time arguing over this anymore. Your opinion is welcome but I'd just rather wait for GT6.

... I believe what's holding PD back is the 1200 cars. They could make the 200 new cars with premium sound quite easily I'm sure, but they won't, because it'll make all the other cars sound like crap and they won't have that. I think it's an all or nothing deal.

This is a very good point.
 
I'm sure it's not a piece of cake, but what would you expect the new sound guy to say? "Oh yeah mate, I can churn out 5 or 6 cars a day, it's relatively straightforward" Of course he's going to say it's hard, makes the fans appreciate it more and makes his boss happy too.

Actually, he pretty much does say that! :lol:
The recording and making of loops are the easy parts. This particular sound team will have a quick mosey around the car, figure out where to put microphones, and then choose which ones to put there. Then they spend an hour or two recording what they need. Within a few hours of getting the recordings back to the studio, they have samples.

No, what's hard is recreating the continuum of sounds of the real car from what are effectively snapshots. It's like trying to make a movie out of a limited range of stills (except that movies are linear, and games shouldn't be IMO). Add to that the technical challenge of making the samples sound right at all pitches (it's really not just a matter of changing the rate they play back at, at least it shouldn't be if you want them to sound good), and of not destructively interfering and of not popping etc. This is all pretty hardcore sample theory / filter design stuff, unless you want to do it trial and error.

Then there's the fact that instead of having a naturally varying timbre, you have a fixed, "timbre-stamped" sound all the way through one portion of the rev range until the next sample is faded in - that's not how real engine sounds work, they are infinitely variable (implies infinite samples!), but it's how all engine sounds are reproduced in games (except LFS and all those early synths.) So there's a bit of faffing trying to get the variation to sound natural.

Then once you've got that working OK, you need to place it in an environment and with hundreds of other sounds and get it all to mix nicely and run nicely and not kill anyone's eardrums. That's really, probably, the most difficult part. Imagine a problem like the global illumination of a game scene, only you need to consider each colour of light separately, because each one behaves differently.

Most people cheat, and use the spatial character inherent in the recordings (of whatever environment the car was in) and apply that to the game, so the car is perpetually in the same acoustic environment no matter what it does in the game. We can do better than that. Indeed, I believe pCARS is trying something ambitious with environment modeling, although its samples are still heavily coloured (which will interfere with the modeling), and it won't use separate intake and exhaust sounds (but it does use dedicated interior samples, which is a good idea as the interior doesn't change anything like as much as the exterior).

Point is, other games have far better sounds. Other games with far, far smaller budgets. I believe what's holding PD back is the 1200 cars. They could make the 200 new cars with premium sound quite easily I'm sure, but they won't, because it'll make all the other cars sound like crap and they won't have that. I think it's an all or nothing deal.

The car count is a major obstacle, especially when you add in the modified sounds required as well. But they've been working on the new system for years. I was suspicious of the apparent lack of attention the sound samples had received since GT4; why were they still using the same samples, and why did new cars to the series have recycled sounds from other cars? Obviously, the classical conclusion, ad ignorantiam, is: lazy. Looking at the rest of the sound approach (the only relativistic sound engine in the business! :dopey:), and the way they were tackling other systems, it just didn't make sense to me.

One of the great benefits of a simulation approach is that you don't need to have separate samples for modifications, as such, because you can just feed the relevant changes into the model, and the right sound should just drop out. These modifications can be much more fine grained and more diverse than just three extra options of exhaust. I've been having great fun over the last couple of years "inventing" new sounds for certain engine types, and just playing around trying to match, texturally, certain cars' sounds. I can imagine a whole "community" settling around such a varied customisation feature in a game, like there is for photomode and livery editors etc.

Anyway, just because other games sound better than GT5 at the moment, doesn't mean there's nothing more to be had. Games could sound a lot better, and advocating old techniques because "they work" is not going to get us anywhere new.
I promise to cook up a few lo-fi (I mean it, you'll have to polish your eardrums to hear what's going on) demos to show you all the kinds of inherent flexibility a totally new approach could yield, but only once I've rebuilt my computer in a month or two's time... :)
(By then, PD may have shown us what they've been up to, and I can crash into an über-depression as I realise how far behind the curve I am!)
 
^same problem as before the sound doesn't match the visuals :)

The sound I hear sounds like a car on a dyno inside a building, but what I see is a car on the track...
 
This is goosebumps:



epic wall of text..

Thanks for the detailed response. I've learned more about sound engineering than I ever thought I would reading that...lol. I do get that it's complicated to get it "right" and hopefully PD is working on that, but you have to believe that after 15 years and especially the last three years of GT5's horrid sounds, that most fans would have been happy with less than perfect "fudged" sounds that attempted to come close to realism vs. what we got. I realize other games come close but miss the full dymanic range and the full range of sound associated with each model car. But in spite of that, they sound way better than GT5.

There is a happy medium between perfection and crap. The video below from Ratt is an example of that medium...for me. It's a bit too polished, too clean, lacks dynamic range...compared to reality...aka..perfection. But relative to what we have in GT5 for just about every race car it might as well be from another planet. I just don't get why we couldn't have had that happy medium for GT5 and 6 before we get the "perfection" of Kaz's vision at some undetermined point in the future.


 
In Kaz's mind, it must be a case of "either it gets done perfectly or it doesn't get done at all", of course we don't know but that seems to be the case with the sounds.
 
In Kaz's mind, it must be a case of "either it gets done perfectly or it doesn't get done at all", of course we don't know but that seems to be the case with the sounds.

That's an easy conclusion to draw but it would be inaccurate. There is plenty of GT5 that is less than perfect (standards anyone?) and he had no trouble releasing that to the world. I think it just comes down to two things, the enormity of doing 1200 cars and not wanting to have some with accurate sound and some without, and priorities. Kaz has said the sounds are too "perfect". I'm hoping he meant too clinical and lacking in dynamic range and pop for lack of a better word, but it obviously isn't a high priority for them. Hard to believe...but 15 years don't lie.
 
In Kaz's mind, it must be a case of "either it gets done perfectly or it doesn't get done at all", of course we don't know but that seems to be the case with the sounds.

He certainly doesn't seem to have that attitude in many other areas of the game though.
 
They need to fix the volume of the different exhausts. Sports Exhaust sounds muffled and quiet compared to stock on most cars.
 
He certainly doesn't seem to have that attitude in many other areas of the game though.

Maybe not Kaz but his sound designer maybe, after all Kaz isn't PD. I'm sorry I'm talking out my ass lol but it's frustrating, it's like they're not even trying, well at least we have a straight answer from Kaz now but I don't know if we should believe him.
 
Maybe not Kaz but his sound designer maybe, after all Kaz isn't PD. I'm sorry I'm talking out my ass lol but it's frustrating, it's like they're not even trying, well at least we have a straight answer from Kaz now but I don't know if we should believe him.

Not trying to be difficult, but I think Kaz is PD. I've worked for a "guru" before, someone who pioneered an entire industry here in Canada. The company expanded a retail chain nationwide from a handful to 50+ stores in one year, but Randy (names changed to protect the innocent) was still the guy in charge, everyone was in awe of him and no one dared go against him or disagree with him in any way...except me of course...lol...which is why I got fired and had to reinvent myself as a direct competitor. His advice to me on taking over his previous role as Director of Sales was, and I'm quoting "When you're not sure what to do, just think of what Randy would do and do that"...which is of course the opposite of what I did.

I could go into a lot of detail because the parallels are stunning. We had a virtual monopoly on the industry for about a year and made wheelbarrows full of money, but the competition came in like gangbusters and we failed to keep up and within a couple of years we were getting our tails handed to us in the most competitive markets. Randy wouldn't update anything, wouldn't change our business model, wouldn't match what competitors were doing because he thought he knew better. Within 6 months of my termination, 1/3 of the stores close nationwide, and within 2 years they were all gone. Went from the cover of Macleans magazine one year where the word "King" was used in the caption, to nothing in less than 4 years.

Point being, this is how I see PD, except they don't have the competition. They do a great job in many areas, but with some of the core elements, the basics if you prefer, like AI, sound etc. they don't do a very good job because they don't have to. Games on other consoles aren't really competition for them, and nothing else on the PS system so far can hold a candle to GT.
 
Maybe not Kaz but his sound designer maybe, after all Kaz isn't PD. I'm sorry I'm talking out my ass lol but it's frustrating, it's like they're not even trying, well at least we have a straight answer from Kaz now but I don't know if we should believe him.

IIRC there are just two guys listed in the credits under sounds.
 
GT6 isn't out yet, there's a chance PD will get their new sound generation system working on PS3 in-game before it releases, but you'd be better off expecting more of the same.

Not interested in GT6 without a sound upgrade.... nice to see they found some more compromises to fix the shadows though....
 
Its clear that GT5 pushes then ps3 too the limit. So would you be prepared to accept better sounds but with every car a standard? The standards can have fully modelled interiors though, but the same graphic quality.
 
I don't think we should get too concerned with this whole "competition" business. I think, to an extent, it helps improve things, but when all it comes down to is the competition itself, I think you have to take a step back and think about what you're actually trying to do.

PD are aware of what their "competitors" are doing, and they are aware of some of the feedback from "fans" and from a much broader spectrum of players. That they choose to do things their own way anyway is oddly refreshing, although often frustrating. There is no sense in a copycat culture in what is effectively supposed to be an innovative, creative and fundamentally artistic / experiential medium, so it's better for PD to be themselves - and for everyone else to follow suit. That way, the variety offered in games will always match the variety demanded in peoples' tastes - there is not just one "product".

I'm sure we would all love to have just one game to be the panacea to all our gaming needs, but I think that's asking too much.


Anyway, as for PD offering a halfway house, I agree. I think they could have paid more attention to the samples that were being used in GT5 so that they at least matched the cars in question. That still leaves the samples' short length, their low number of sample points in the rev range and the lack of intake sound, though. That's a substantial amount of effort when you're working on an entirely new system as well.

Speaking of which, wouldn't it be ironic if PD were to effect a sound revolution of sorts? Of course, I'm getting ahead of myself, but still.
 
Its clear that GT5 pushes then ps3 too the limit. So would you be prepared to accept better sounds but with every car a standard? The standards can have fully modelled interiors though, but the same graphic quality.
I may not be a programmer, but sound is not exactly that demanding of the processor. They wouldn't have to "cut back" on other areas of the game, especially graphically, just for better sound.
 
Its clear that GT5 pushes then ps3 too the limit. So would you be prepared to accept better sounds but with every car a standard? The standards can have fully modelled interiors though, but the same graphic quality.

We can have much, MUCH better sounds within the same space that the current samples use, the sound engine in GT5 is already top class, we just need better samples and I'm not talking about quality, just using a real technique to record them along with better mixing would be good enough.
 
I don't think we should get too concerned with this whole "competition" business. I think, to an extent, it helps improve things, but when all it comes down to is the competition itself, I think you have to take a step back and think about what you're actually trying to do.

PD are aware of what their "competitors" are doing, and they are aware of some of the feedback from "fans" and from a much broader spectrum of players. That they choose to do things their own way anyway is oddly refreshing, although often frustrating. There is no sense in a copycat culture in what is effectively supposed to be an innovative, creative and fundamentally artistic / experiential medium, so it's better for PD to be themselves - and for everyone else to follow suit. That way, the variety offered in games will always match the variety demanded in peoples' tastes - there is not just one "product".

I'm sure we would all love to have just one game to be the panacea to all our gaming needs, but I think that's asking too much.

Anyway, as for PD offering a halfway house, I agree. I think they could have paid more attention to the samples that were being used in GT5 so that they at least matched the cars in question. That still leaves the samples' short length, their low number of sample points in the rev range and the lack of intake sound, though. That's a substantial amount of effort when you're working on an entirely new system as well.

Speaking of which, wouldn't it be ironic if PD were to effect a sound revolution of sorts? Of course, I'm getting ahead of myself, but still.

This is all well and good, but most industries don't work that way. When innovations arise in a market with relatively similar products, most manufacturers either adopt them if they can, or try to create their own version. In fact what is more common is to embrace the "state of the art" if you will and then improve upon it or add something new that's state of the art. Take GPS in cars for example. I don't see anyone saying, "Oh GPS is great, but we're going to stick with maps for a while" When it comes to engine sounds, PD is sticking with maps, while others have adopted GPS.
 
I may not be a programmer, but sound is not exactly that demanding of the processor. They wouldn't have to "cut back" on other areas of the game, especially graphically, just for better sound.

Depends what you do with it. I can certainly think of a few ways to max out my PC with sound. Bandwidth is the big one with sound, actually; mixing, interpolating / resampling and table lookups can get pretty expensive if you're doing enough of them (lots of "channels").

And that's just the traditional approach. Once you factor in exotic things like multiband mixing and decent reflection / reverb models or multipole sound radiation and physics-driven effects, things get a lot more intense.

As an example of that latter, I maxed out (one core on) my computer approximating the vibrations in a "pseudo chassis" emanating from the engine, including a breakdown of the forces due to the crank, pistons, balance shafts and combustion forces, all decomposed into the major modes - it was also fully variable in real time according to engine configuration and geometry, and ran alongside the engine sound synthesis itself and a crude suspension force filterer thing to handle road impacts etc. I just need a tactile transducer to test it properly! (And maybe I should optimise it a bit) :dopey:

Although, it is rare for a game to get 1/4 of the CPU budget given to sound. Maybe that's why sound has stayed "low budget" for so long now.


Johnnypenso: if PD are doing what I think they're doing, it's actually them that are going with GPS whilst everyone else is sticking with maps. ;)

I do like a good map, though. It's all about what's relevant, or perhaps it's just priority - again: taste. Obviously a game like GT should prioritise sound, and it sounds like they are. I hope we get to hear some of it soon.


PepeMickey: what is a "real recording technique" and "better mixing"?
 
Well Griffith500, we don't know for sure how PD records their samples but it's clear that for some, they either recorded them with the car in neutral by placing the mics solely to record exhaust sounds (gallardo, italia, zonda r, r35 gtr, lexus lfa, etc) or they didn't even bother to record them (hsv, c9, murcielago, aventador, almost all the race cars, etc) and by better mixing I mean that some cars have good meaty samples that are drowned by engine mechanical noise, too much wind noise, or with the examples given above, too much exhaust noise through all of the views.
 
Well Griffith500, we don't know for sure how PD records their samples but it's clear that for some, they either recorded them with the car in neutral by placing the mics solely to record exhaust sounds (gallardo, italia, zonda r, r35 gtr, lexus lfa, etc) or they didn't even bother to record them (hsv, c9, murcielago, aventador, almost all the race cars, etc) and by better mixing I mean that some cars have good meaty samples that are drowned by engine mechanical noise, too much wind noise, or with the examples given above, too much exhaust noise through all of the views.

All of that is explained by their using samples from GT4. They do record "under load" (Kaz's own words) and all of the new cars to the series since GT4 have used remixed / recycled samples. It seems very likely this is because they've been working on the new sounds as a priority - they may have even intended to have them in GT5.
 
That's PD recording a Vector on the dyno, they certainly do it, maybe not for all the cars. Even then maybe the car doesn't sound all that exciting in real life :dopey:



hyundai-polyphony-digital-gt6-e1345057886798.jpg
 
It maybe they close mic them too much, since when we hear cars in real life, we do not stick our head inside the engine bay or on the exhaust tip. So the audio does not get a chance to "develop" and gain some of the character. Such close mic'ing will bring more of the zing and cam noises etc.

If you see the way the Forza team does it, they have some mics further away to capture more of what we actually hear

mazda787bforza.jpg




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It maybe they close mic them too much, since when we hear cars in real life, we do not stick our head inside the engine bay or on the exhaust tip. So the audio does not get a chance to "develop" and gain some of the character. Such close mic'ing will bring more of the zing and cam noises etc.

If you see the way the Forza team does it, they have some mics further away to capture more of what we actually hear

Wow, for over 1200 cars that'll seem to take forever. :ill:
 
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