- 2,790
- Vancouver, BC
- liampage123
Give us better sounds - PLEASE !!
- Thread starter steamcat
- 4,667 comments
- 352,998 views
- 44
- Victoria
- JDM_Tuning_DR30
- 8,723
You might have to show us where that was said.
Besides, the Standards being "touched up" for GT5 and the sounds being "completely new" for GT6 (not a demo, not the Academy; GT6) are two very different things.
What you might not be grasping is just exactly what "completely new" means. I am confident that they have got their sounds made and working, just not on PS3. That's what requires the "breakthrough", the technical challenge of generating sounds in a new way on hardware that is fairly well stretched already. Being partway through content generation and making a deadline (the cars will just be cut if they're not ready, saved for DLC) is not a breakthrough.
They're the same sounds as GT5 in both cases, though.
Still needs work, sounds like a nice V8 at low RPM's, but as soon as they get high it sounds like it used to :/
Sounds quite good at low RPM's, needs fixing in high RPM's. And there's my 2 Cents
It's a V6, not a V8. It's as wrong as the HSV initially was; the fact that that was changed implies the people working on the current ("placeholder") sounds don't actually know what they're doing, probably because they're not the real sound guys - it wouldn't surprise me if it were the same people responsible for the trailers!
With the HSV, the sound team might have felt the need to step in and do it "properly", but still using recycled samples from entirely incorrect engines (the last iteration using inline 4 motorcycle "engine" sounds, and a 5 cylinder / V10 exhaust pitched to suit a V8). That, we now know, was probably because they're working on the new sounds instead.
- 10,403
- GTP_Spag69
- spagetti69
Therein lies a huge problem then. Grrrr.
- 8,723
Sure, but adaptive tessellation wasn't meant to be viable, or even possible, on PS3, depending on whom you asked.
PD could well expend a bit of effort to get the existing sounds polished up, a bit like they did with the HSV, and have mildly improved sounds in GT6, with much better accuracy overall. I think it says something of their confidence that they're shooting for the new sounds instead.
Although, it's been a few years since I resigned myself to expecting no change to the sounds on PS3, because I recognised they'd have to do it a different way to get any real improvements. I'm trying to stick with that expectation, but there's a few months of hard coding work ahead of us (well, PD) yet.
I still think one of the main motivators for a GT6 on PS4 is whether or not the new sounds get into the PS3 version. I think they'd want to show fairly soon after they "disappoint" (your expectations are your problem) that they do have the new sounds working (and please buy a PS4 now, thanksverymuchbye)
- 362
- London
- MadHax
- M8DH8X
Simbin has done a great job with the sound in R3E, really the best sound I've heard in any PC sim, and I've played most of them. And the outside view of the Z4 GT3 is even more impressive.
Here is a replay of the outside view on Bathhurst track.
Someone really need's to show Mr. Kazunori Simbin's R3E
*EDIT*
The real life outside view has some serious echoing going on, that's what I really want to hear in game
that would be hard to implement as echoing is purely dependent of environment but that's what simbin has tried to do.
PD on the other hand need to sort out the sound of the engine first before they can work on the echoing on your first video (real life one).
The other thing that most sim developing teams do is focus the sound on one car in the outside view, it doesn't sound good when there's like 10 cars on screen and you can only here 2 or 3 cars.
I think sound is likely to get a major overhaul in the hardware department of next gen gaming as it must use a lot of processing power to implement in game.
Also I believe your last video trailer by PD has been altered and mixed with real car sound which is annoying. I really do hope PD is trying to fix the sound's as driving a car that sound's like a vacuum cleaner is very off putting.
Let's wait and see how GT6 will sound maybe they have already fixed it and want to surprise us with the final game.
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- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
I find it funny Tenacious quoted how people don't argue with you about sound as if you and him argue the same point. Yet what you've just said here would be counter to his idea that the HSV is the best sound in all of GT5.
Anyways I still feel we should wait to pass full decision for the full game, and even then who knows
- 7,830
- U S A
- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
A-HEM...
I find it funny that some people have to put words in my posts to emphasize their "disagreement."
Anyhow, I'm not against anyone debating these sound issues, but I find it much more informative and enlightening to read posts from Griff, who does have experience in the subject, than some unknown entity out in the fog of the netverse who cavalierly remarks that the cars in Gran Turismo all sound like vacuums, leaf blowers, pencil sharpeners, XBox360s, or whatever the meme of the month is. This is why I peek in here occasionally, because the discussion is often no more than emotion driven contempt.
One more quick edit. I know that there are times I have let my common sense take a hike like LMSVette's post does, and let sarcasm and exaggeration stomp the pedal to the floor, but I'm trying to be more erudite around here and keep my emotions in check. I've had quite a few really bad real life ordeals lately so sometimes it's a little too easy to forget that I'm just a fellow citizen here. So LMS, I'm not really meaning to be all that harsh on you, just trying to clear my throat as much as anything, and hope that this really serious topic which really does need some solid input doesn't get too Karn Evil 9.
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- 35,444
- Addison,Texas
- GTP_RACECAR
As do I.
- 1,130
- Mexico City
- ppmike921
- MikeB0ssMan
To the people that believe that the GTR video shows improved sounds, you guys are delusional, what you're hearing is a mix between the Nissan R92CP (or R89, it makes no difference) sound sample with the normal sound sample that the GTR race cars always have, actually, it's such a bad mix that you can hear both samples separately just one on top of the other. I honestly don't undertsand how some of you people demand better sounds when you can't recognize the same samples that you've been hearing for years.
Would half of you guys be able to recognize realistic sounds? We all agree that this has to be fixed but god damn, we won't get anywhere if you guys can't recognize what you're hearing
Would half of you guys be able to recognize realistic sounds? We all agree that this has to be fixed but god damn, we won't get anywhere if you guys can't recognize what you're hearing
- 35,444
- Addison,Texas
- GTP_RACECAR
If this is aimed at me, I didn't at all say that the sounds were improved (that would be a optimistic assumption to make based solely on the incremental sound change of just one car), I only mentioned that I heard a difference between the car in the goodwood demo and the demos from the Silverstone event and E3 (as well as the GT Academy Demo).
- 1,130
- Mexico City
- ppmike921
- MikeB0ssMan
No Racecar, it was aimed at a specific group of people, this site isn't the only place where I would make a post like this but it's certainly the most mature one so I decided to vent here.
- 301
- Washington
- Chippy569
- Chippy569
You must have been awesome at this game while it was still running. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h3NS0X96-U&list=SPFD24984DFF0D9E76
- 446
- Tokyo
Actually, with the minimum experience i have about creating car sounds, it must not be too hard for PD to improve sounds.
Especially on the most iconic cars.
Actually, if you have the car, its quite easy to record sample from it, especially if you are PD with all the good microphone to record etc.
I saw a video on Youtube about how Test Drive Unlimited car sounds was recorded.
They said that the biggest problem was to find the car to record samples.
So because everyone in TDU studios was car enthusiast, they called many friends that had the car they wanted and asked them if they could record sound from engine.
Most of the people who owned Ferrari's or Lamborghini's almost immediately accepted to help and was happy that their car sound could be recorded for a game.
I think this is a very cool initiative.
Then if you have the samples, and a good car sound engine, its not that hard to make a good sound out of it.
So for GT6, i think they cannot record good sounds for every cars, some of them will stay digital, but i think they can do it for at least the most driven cars.
(But as mentioned in the above posts, i think they will do that in GT7)
For my racing simulation, i am trying to improve engine sounds for the next build, because i know it is absolutely essential for better driving pleasure.
ps* Please forgive my non native English.
Especially on the most iconic cars.
Actually, if you have the car, its quite easy to record sample from it, especially if you are PD with all the good microphone to record etc.
I saw a video on Youtube about how Test Drive Unlimited car sounds was recorded.
They said that the biggest problem was to find the car to record samples.
So because everyone in TDU studios was car enthusiast, they called many friends that had the car they wanted and asked them if they could record sound from engine.
Most of the people who owned Ferrari's or Lamborghini's almost immediately accepted to help and was happy that their car sound could be recorded for a game.
I think this is a very cool initiative.
Then if you have the samples, and a good car sound engine, its not that hard to make a good sound out of it.
So for GT6, i think they cannot record good sounds for every cars, some of them will stay digital, but i think they can do it for at least the most driven cars.
(But as mentioned in the above posts, i think they will do that in GT7)
For my racing simulation, i am trying to improve engine sounds for the next build, because i know it is absolutely essential for better driving pleasure.
ps* Please forgive my non native English.
- 8,723
A quick look at the relevant thread in the GT5 section should show you that what constitutes the "best" sound in the game is entirely subjective. Please don't turn this into a silly "them vs. us" farce; sound is far more nuanced than that, especially in terms of perception. I try to argue from a point of "absolute" physical accuracy (as near as I'm able to get with the limited experience and equipment I have - i.e. my brain and its ability to be tricked).
If someone thinks the HSV sounds good, that's fine. What's important (to me) is whether it sounds right. Up to a point, most people could tell that it didn't at first, but it's telling that so many are happy with its current sound (more or less) even though it is physically inaccurate; maybe only upon closer inspection does it seem "off". This is a reminder to all that they have to be careful that they're not filling in the gaps in their perception with fantasy (something Chippy569 said, too), and also that what you are used to hearing in games is not necessarily correct - this, I think, is a similar effect to people getting used to the "feel" of 24 Hz cinema, and not liking higher framerates etc. despite it being more true-to-life. This is where my gripe with the inertia exhibited in sampled sound in games comes from; the typical sampling schemes have their own colour and "feel", but people are used to it even though it's wrong.
It's also very important that we remember that the HSV was changed to be more like the real car, even though they didn't use the recordings they must have of it (startup sound). Which was the point I was actually making in the post you replied to.
Griffith, I'm curious to know what games you think have some good sounds?
I'm not talking just about engine notes, but exhaust notes, straight cut gear whine, BOV's, supercharger, turbo spool, backfires,rumbles/sputters..etc, reverb, doppler..etc. The whole shebang as it were..
Can you post some clips of examples?
- 446
- Tokyo
IMO i think that Project Gotham Racing 4 on XBoX have some pretty good sounds, and cars engine sounds pretty close from what you can hear in real life.
If you have other good examples i would love to hear them
- 44
- Victoria
- JDM_Tuning_DR30
- 8,723
Nope, I don't think anything comes close to what should be happening at this point in time. Sound fell into a lull around the maturation of sampling technologies, and is only just now beginning to pull its socks up and catch up again. It's the seemingly usual case of education focusing on linear media (historically much larger, money-wise), and that attitude then corrupting our interactive medium. Of course, the education has changed, as has the money, and there are more technically minded folk getting control of developmental resources.
I like LFS (fresh, outside-the-box approach due to developmental constraints), iRacing (long history of doing things right, since the Papyrus years, even going so far as eschewing the industry standard to stick with their own approach recently), GTLegends (depth and quality of sampling scheme; usual sampling issues, though), PGR4 (interior sounds) and GT (really sophisticated sound engine). pCARS has promised good reverb, but we'll wait and see on that one.
If PD are doing some of the things I know are possible with their new system, I think a lot of people might be very pleased indeed. I hope they have something to show at GamesCom; irrespective of whether it;ll be coming to PS3 or not, I expect there's a good chance we'll know what the new sounds are by TGS. Obviously that'd put a dampener on GT6's launch, perhaps, but you never know - they showed us very honestly what the Standard cars were about with their own little trailer (the only example I know of that included real in-game sounds) before GT5 released.
- 185
- Helsinki
- RattijuoppoFIN
This is exactly right. May not agree with the rest, but the principle is that PD should stop using the same sounds and models over and over again. I mean, which other company you know that sells the same crap all the time?
Oh right, the Call Of Duty's...
This isn't something that will stop unless the publishers get decreased sales figures.
....and I'm afraid that just isn't going to happen. GT6 was guaranteed to sell 7 million or more copies the day it was formally announced. GT7 is also guaranteed to sell in similar amounts or more.
- 8,723
Which is precisely what Kaz has said they are doing, and have been doing for some time. I guess they decided to skip a couple of stages and went for a completely new system, and it's proving difficult getting it to work on current hardware, which would be why we haven't been able to play with it yet.
As for the Standards, that's a different argument and not one that really has any relevance, unless we consider the blame the Premiums should carry for slowing everything down as much as they seem to have done.
- 13,907
- Adelaide
- Neomone
I guess it's the sense that with both the graphics and the audio PD are overreaching. It's great to be trying to do something revolutionary, but in terms of making a game you can't be hoping that it'll come together at the last minute. You need a plan that is achievable from the moment you start making the game.
PD have been covering their asses with sounds and models from GT3 and 4 for years and years now. Do you stick with this policy of feeding your customers decade old content and hope that your new hotness is enough to bring you glory when it finally arrives? Or do you take a step back, use current tools to make something that's competitive with current technology and then go back to your research?
- 375
They definitely overreached on GT5 with the car models. They were too detailed and wasted a hell of a lot of time. At least now they can be used for the next generation, although, I just hope it doesn't take a lot of work to get the most out of them there and get them looking as good as Forza 5's models. On the whole, everything else clearly suffered because of the insane quality (by PS3 terms) of the models.
- 8,723
You do both, obviously. But that's a lot of work, and we might not have got the improvements that are possible already as soon as PD may be able to offer them, from any developer, if PD hadn't decided to focus on them - full judgement reserved, of course, until we hear the new sounds. The present sounds have never really been broken, in that they have been functional enough for me (and I heavily rely on the sound to drive), although they have obviously fallen "behind the curve", in terms of quality, given the samples' developmental age (ha). Also, everybody has 20/20 hindsight, even PD.
If you think games should collect every gamer's wishes and reproduce them in some smoothed, averaged, non-descript fashion (nature of statistics), those games exist (and they're all the same as each other). If you think games should offer the best ROI, those games exist, too (and they're all the same as each other). If you think games should be pushing the boundaries of what is technically possible, they certainly should exist (given the difficulty inherent here, they tend to focus on different things - ergo, they're different in themselves). Clearly, there is a lot of overlap here, and one game can have all of these approaches (and others) in different areas.
It's through PD's technical brilliance, combined with a fresh idea of what a car game could be, that GT has made its name, in my opinion. I personally want to see where they're headed, and have no desire for them to take a more level-headed approach (although they are obviously aware of gamers' demands, I hope they don't spoil the broth, as it were.) I'm sure some of the things that gamers regularly demand are things that only came about from people pushing their luck, anyway - it's just become the norm now, and at one point there wasn't even a "norm" at all. At one point, everything was new; everything was a risk (it was also mostly done for fun).
I'd rather have real innovation and have to wait for it than be fed some kind of hyped gimmick instead at a more regular interval (no dichotomy implied, just contrasting; you will always have to wait for true innovation, though). It's better that GT is different, that they push as hard as they can, and I wish more games were. In the case of the sounds, I think that PD intended to have their new sounds in GT5. Overreaching? I think they can afford it, as can we (the game was still enjoyable in and of itself, if not necessarily by comparison in every respect to previous games; crucially, I don't feel abused), so it's probably worth it. Then again, we can't be sure if PD truly have overreached yet (that implies finality; i.e. as if the moment of "reaching" has passed - it hasn't), until we hear the sounds. They're playing the long game, and so should we.
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