Give us better sounds - PLEASE !!

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I never said it WAS a simulator. I said that it's sales are strongly tied to it's perception as one.

"Sim racing fans" aren't it's demographic if you're defining that as "people who worry about whether the tyre model is accurate". But if you're talking about people buying the game because they think it provides a realistic driving experience, then it's probably at least a factor for almost everyone who purchases it.

People on GTP generally know that GT isn't a particularly accurate simulator, or at least have been exposed to the idea. I'm not so sure the general public perception is anything like that.

I think Amar said it best in the thread about game vs. sim. There are a lot of "Real Deal Joes" trying to steer the development of the game according to their idea of realism, sure, possibly because they've been so kindly massaged in that respect by a certain "open" project. I just think GT will always be better off as its own thing.

uhh, what?

A trap, eh? Care to offer any counter-points before I wander in, or am I on my own here?
Seriously, I'd love to know where you think current car games are simulating sound. As in, the same way iRacing simulates suspension, etc.


Luminis: the new sounds have not been auditioned to us yet. That'd be why you've not heard anything new. And welcome to thirty pages ago, by the way.
 
Right, "driving" simulator, not "racing". Actually if you flip over the game case (which most people have), you'll see it says it is the most realistic racing simulator. But it's just marketing. The game has never played as a racing sim, ever. You can bend it to do that, just about, but it just isn't geared up to offer the level of race day reproduction (and flexibility) that true racing sims are. The "progression" aspect, for a start, goes against what a racing sim should be about. I personally think there should be a "sim" mode alongside the traditional GT mode, plus a few others, but not at the expense of GT's core "experience". There are plenty of true racing sims out there; GT was never one of them, whose racing framework was firmly in the realms of arcade games from the start.

So it is a simcade, try telling PD that because it's quite obvious that Kaz sees the game as a sim. Going out to make a tire and suspension model that is more akin to one seems to show they really see there game a such. Realistically it isn't a sim it's a sim emulating a sim :lol:. A better wording would be best sim you can get on a console.

When GT1 came out (or rather, once I got around to trying it out ("console game", you see), I was playing GPL, a "proper" vehicle dynamics simulator, and a racing simulator to boot, with historical drivers and seasons etc. in the vein of established race sims up to that point. There was no comparison, but GT still won me over because it was different. I still play GPL to this day, of course. I don't need to play just one game, and I don't understand why GT should conquer everything else - it should co-exist with all the subtly different games that cater for subtly different tastes. And nobody should be laughing at anyone else for that difference in taste, Johnnypenso.

It's fans want it to live up the hype it has been sold as that's why it should conquer. Don't sell us something touting to be the most realistic when we could make a rig for a little more than the starting price of a PS3 and run comp games. Yet for convenience and purpose more people are going to clearly play a console.

I too love GP legends.

It's funny, though, as it's the core elements that have been announced as being worked on the most for GT6. Maybe that'll also include better online / offline "free race" options, that'll come closer to a race sim's functionality. Maybe then people will stop demanding that GT morph into GTR.

Even non-hardcore fans have asked for more options online wise, that should show you that you don't have to be one way or the other to want to realistic drive or race people. I don't think people have asked for GT to be GTR, realistic online choice to set up the races they want with idealistic restrictions should be on any racing/driving game.

It's interesting that no car game has sound simulation, though. Except GT, to a small extent (propagation, dynamic range, realistic HF attenuation etc.), and iRacing's driveline modeling, I guess. I wonder what's next on that front. ;)

Explain this a bit more. How does that do justice to the car game to any capacity it perpetuates, with such a method?
 
A trap, eh? Care to offer any counter-points before I wander in, or am I on my own here?
Seriously, I'd love to know where you think current car games are simulating sound. As in, the same way iRacing simulates suspension, etc.

I guess I don't understand what you're defining "simulating" as, I think, because currently all games are simulating sound.

However, I think what you're getting at is referred to as "Procedural Audio," which is audio that is generated by way of modifying oscillators on the fly, as opposed to sample-based playback as seen in looping systems (like gt, forza, most pc sims) or granular systems (ea, codemasters, a couple sims). For vehicles, I think this is an eventuality, but I'd guess it's at least 10 years down the road before you get something sounding as good as current tech.
 
So it is a simcade, try telling PD that because it's quite obvious that Kaz sees the game as a sim. Going out to make a tire and suspension model that is more akin to one seems to show they really see there game a such. Realistically it isn't a sim it's a sim emulating a sim :lol:. A better wording would be best sim you can get on a console.

Even non-hardcore fans have asked for more options online wise, that should show you that you don't have to be one way or the other to want to realistic drive or race people. I don't think people have asked for GT to be GTR, realistic online choice to set up the races they want with idealistic restrictions should be on any racing/driving game.

A simsimcade is how I see the GT series. Forza fans would argue it's not the best sim on a console, which would leave it as the best sim on PS3 to many people. Given it's the only sim on PS3 it's not exactly a lofty achievement...lol. GT's main objective is to let people drive a massive number of cars on easily drivable physics, not too challenging to keep a car under control (going fast is a different story)and not too challenging racing. Online is an afterthought, thrown in just because they had to. No real qualifying, times not kept if you go into the garage to tune, nor posted for others to see while on track, no rolling starts etc.
 
I guess I don't understand what you're defining "simulating" as, I think, because currently all games are simulating sound.

However, I think what you're getting at is referred to as "Procedural Audio," which is audio that is generated by way of modifying oscillators on the fly, as opposed to sample-based playback as seen in looping systems (like gt, forza, most pc sims) or granular systems (ea, codemasters, a couple sims). For vehicles, I think this is an eventuality, but I'd guess it's at least 10 years down the road before you get something sounding as good as current tech.

Simulation is physical modeling; it's creating a reproduction of reality, rather than an impression of it.

Samplers (granular or otherwise) can only reproduce the bits of reality that were recorded; it cannot fill in the gaps. Simulation can (in theory).

Hand-tweaked mixing cannot handle every combination of all the hundreds of sound sources and make it sound correct at every instance in time, at every point on the track. Simulation can (in theory).

Sure, it's a lot of work to turn that theory into practice, but the trouble is we're 10 years behind where we should be. And problem is not one of available tech, but of approach. That's because sound has always played second-fiddle at best; oh, and samplers.

Proteus uses procedural audio - from that, it should be obvious that it's a bit too broad a term; you can make a procedure that is physically based, but there are more that aren't. It can also modify anything you want: iRacing's (physically based) "gear wobble" might be called procedural, for instance - it being generated, not "read back" (and thus fixed; pre-set), is indeed the distinction being made either way. Simulation could be considered a subset of procedural audio, perhaps.
 
A simsimcade is how I see the GT series. Forza fans would argue it's not the best sim on a console, which would leave it as the best sim on PS3 to many people. Given it's the only sim on PS3 it's not exactly a lofty achievement...lol. GT's main objective is to let people drive a massive number of cars on easily drivable physics, not too challenging to keep a car under control (going fast is a different story)and not too challenging racing. Online is an afterthought, thrown in just because they had to. No real qualifying, times not kept if you go into the garage to tune, nor posted for others to see while on track, no rolling starts etc.

I never considered GT the best sim racer for console, I was just throwing it out there what would be better wording, rather than saying it's an upper level arcade racer/driver. Many people don't see it as a simcade or a simsimcade and would argue up and down that it's as real as Iracing or GTR or GTL, we know better than this but many don't. So don't confuse me as to saying GT is epic, if you've seen any of my comments on the matter I have much criticism for the series and am one of the worse on here.

Also all the things you described have been implemented before on GT, the fact that they aren't there at all to some degree is part of the reason from my criticism. However, I would just put it out there that PD has the capacity to make such features happen, and have done so, just want people who aren't as aware to have both sides.
 
iRacing's (physically based) "gear wobble" might be called procedural, for instance - it being generated, not "read back" (and thus fixed; pre-set), is indeed the distinction being made either way. Simulation could be considered a subset of procedural audio, perhaps.
Iracing's new system audio demo:


what that sounds like to me is hardly synthesis - the math behind the "gear wobble" in iracing is just a spring calculation which is modified by a few physics states (to determine how quick of a spring, how strong of a spring, and how damped of a spring) and randomized, which then acts on the RPM parameter the loops are triggering off of. It's not actually synthesizing a sound; it's using physics and DSP to modify a sound, something that GT and many others already do. You can hear this most clearly on the lotus 49 at :19 or so. This is modifying an existing sound, though - not generating a new one, which is very much more difficult.

Unless you're talking about something else? I still don't fully get what you're trying to say.
 
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Right, "driving" simulator, not "racing". But it's just marketing. The game has never played as a racing sim, ever. You can bend it to do that, just about, but it just isn't geared up to offer the level of race day reproduction (and flexibility) that true racing sims are. The "progression" aspect, for a start, goes against what a racing sim should be about. I personally think there should be a "sim" mode alongside the traditional GT mode, plus a few others, but not at the expense of GT's core "experience". There are plenty of true racing sims out there; GT was never one of them, whose racing framework was firmly in the realms of arcade games from the start.

When GT1 came out (or rather, once I got around to trying it out ("console game", you see), I was playing GPL, a "proper" vehicle dynamics simulator, and a racing simulator to boot, with historical drivers and seasons etc. in the vein of established race sims up to that point. There was no comparison, but GT still won me over because it was different. I still play GPL to this day, of course. I don't need to play just one game, and I don't understand why GT should conquer everything else - it should co-exist with all the subtly different games that cater for subtly different tastes. And nobody should be laughing at anyone else for that difference in taste, Johnnypenso.

It's funny, though, as it's the core elements that have been announced as being worked on the most for GT6. Maybe that'll also include better online / offline "free race" options, that'll come closer to a race sim's functionality. Maybe then people will stop demanding that GT morph into GTR.

I agree with most of what you said. I'm starting to see my relationship with Gran Turismo as a case of "it's not you it's me".

When I was a child I really enjoyed collecting obscure, 50hp cars, changing the oil (made me feel very adult), chasing the rabbit etc. I thought the sounds were fine, physics were really good, if not a little hard. Didn't worry me that even the basics of racing (qualifying, flags etc.) weren't represented.

But, as I grew older, I made a foray into PC gaming and with it, GTR. To say I was blown away was an understatement.

So, now when I come back to Gran Turismo I find it lacking in many areas. I think one of the reasons I "complain" so much is that I just want to see an old friend reach their fullest potential as "sim". I somewhat expected Gran Turismo to grow up with me, but that just hasn't happened.

Gran Turismo will always (for good or bad) be Gran Turismo. In my opinion, that's a damn shame.
 
Iracing's new system audio demo:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9zQ-dSlQ_g

what that sounds like to me is hardly synthesis - the math behind the "gear wobble" in iracing is just a spring calculation which is modified by a few physics states (to determine how quick of a spring, how strong of a spring, and how damped of a spring) and randomized, which then acts on the RPM parameter the loops are triggering off of. It's not actually synthesizing a sound; it's using physics and DSP to modify a sound, something that GT and many others already do. You can hear this most clearly on the lotus 49 at :19 or so. This is modifying an existing sound, though - not generating a new one, which is very much more difficult.

Unless you're talking about something else? I still don't fully get what you're trying to say.

Nowhere did I say synthesis, to be fair, although a sampler is a synthesiser of sorts; most games certainly rely on "sample-based synthesis" - but I know what you mean.

It's more than just one spring, too, by the way - it's the full network present on the real car using the real lengths, mass-moments of inertia, stiffness etc. of shafts etc., collected in the way iRacing does, all integrated into the solver for the drivetrain's motion (i.e. differential etc.; that's why some cars had weird oscillatory behaviour at first, the diffs were too perfect - whereas most would settle one way or the other, or lock up on stiction, the virtual one couldn't, probably compounded by numerical issues). That solver was first developed for GPL, so "all" they've really done is deepened the simulation of that specific area by allowing the shafts to flex (they already had mass). It still struggles with damping, though, as most simulations do (bearing friction being the major sticking point, probably).

This simulation occurs at a high speed, and the rpm values that fall out of it (the engine is pushing and pulling against that spring network at one end of it, the road at the others) are indeed fed into the sampler they use as normal. This means there is a very fine-grained, procedural control of part of the engine sound that is entirely physically driven. It's certainly not randomised!

Control of sound playback is just as important as the sounds being played back (it is infintely more important in physically modeled musical instruments), but is often overlooked in games. That's why most racing games have hideous aliasing (not GPL, not iRacing, not LFS, not GT).
 


The video above shows the sounds from Project Cars, these are in game and not altered, the sound in GT is far too bland, hearing fuel in the exhaust when you back off in older cars or the whine of the gear box etc etc all goes towards a more imersive experience and is missing from GT5 and probably GT6 if the demo is anything to go by.
 
See Griffith this is what I don't get. You can hear that iRacing and PCars both have superior sound to GT, at least to my unprofessional ear it sounds that way. You obviously have a far greater understanding than me. What I understand is that iRacing and PCars budget is about equivalent in relation to GT, of the amount of money the falls out of Kaz's pocket when he goes to buy a hotdog at a race weekend.

All the theory in the world does not explain why this is so. The only thing that explains it, is that sounds aren't a priority for PD at all and never have been. And as someone mentioned above, that's a shame, given the rabid dedication of it's fanbase, and the amount of money available for it. Wait, wait, wait is always the rallying cry for GT. We've been waiting 15 years.
 


The video above shows the sounds from Project Cars, these are in game and not altered, the sound in GT is far too bland, hearing fuel in the exhaust when you back off in older cars or the whine of the gear box etc etc all goes towards a more imersive experience and is missing from GT5 and probably GT6 if the demo is anything to go by.


Wow, what a great trailer!

Anyway, it's clear that PD has their work cut out for them.
'Next Gen' racers such as pCars, iRacing and Race Room are the new benchmarks..
 
See Griffith this is what I don't get. You can hear that iRacing and PCars both have superior sound to GT, at least to my unprofessional ear it sounds that way. You obviously have a far greater understanding than me. What I understand is that iRacing and PCars budget is about equivalent in relation to GT, of the amount of money the falls out of Kaz's pocket when he goes to buy a hotdog at a race weekend.

All the theory in the world does not explain why this is so. The only thing that explains it, is that sounds aren't a priority for PD at all and never have been. And as someone mentioned above, that's a shame, given the rabid dedication of it's fanbase, and the amount of money available for it. Wait, wait, wait is always the rallying cry for GT. We've been waiting 15 years.

pCARS and iRacing have superior sound samples. Which is but one element of the total sound, although most people are used to the colour of the accompanying stuff that they don't really notice it. Or their brains filter it out, fill in the gaps etc. It comes back to that moving pictures analogy, and how motion-blurred 24 Hz film doesn't actually look like reality (linear medium, though, so the comparison is superficial, in that interactive stuff is vastly more complex and difficult to make life-like).

And only recently has the creator of the series said they are focusing on sound (I don't ever remember him mentioning sound before), and that they've been working on a totally new way of generating them for a few years now. "All the theory in the world" (at least, the tiny sliver I know of) is what made me suspect this was coming, and I was predicting a "completely new way" two or three years ago.

That doesn't make me Nostradamus (or, rather, his legend), the evidence is there for anyone to make the same inferences, whether they're aware of it or not. A lot changed with GT5:P on the sound front (except the samples, which said so much in and of itself, but so much more in context with the changes that were made), and it penned an obvious line from GT2 / GT3 to some future point, which I imagined to lie on the PS4 somewhere. Now Kaz is saying it might be possible on PS3? Great, I say.

It's always budget with you, isn't it? :P
To be somewhat less than humble, I've made "innovations" (the work has already been done if you know where to look) on practically no budget that most professional teams would never even be allowed to think about. The issue is attitude and approach (from the top), not money. Time could be better spent on a different approach.
It's interesting that the game that showed me where game sounds might be able to go is one that had no money for real engine sounds, so it made its own - they're not hi-fi, but the principles it uses are sound.
 
Griffith, can you make a well explained video, pointing out, on what the GT5 sounds are superior to the sounds of all the other games, please?
I believe that would help enlighten all those with doubts.
 
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Griffith, can you make a well explained video, pointing out, on what the GT5 sounds are superior to the sounds of all the other games, please?
I believe that would help enlighten all those with doubts.

Someone thinks that GT5 sounds are superior to everything else?

Mindblown.gif!
 
Yes. According to Griffith500, GT5 just sounds bad mostly because of the samples. Other than that, it seems that it's superior to every other game.
So me, and I believe some others too, would like some sort of footage comparison or something like that, to show where/at what GT5 sound is better.
That would most certainly put an end to a lot of disussions (and stop others from bringing discussions from multiple pages back), if it is well explained, and uses less technical terminology so people can understand it better.
 
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When I watch the replays in GT5, when the camera switches to overhead and circles around the car, or moving away/closer, or panning + following the car, I can hear the audio being simulated nicely. The echo and reverb are also pretty nice when a car going off to the distant with the downshift entering a corner :D The samples are the ones that hurt the experience, find a good car with nice sample will give a better idea of how good the audio reproduction system in GT5 - in replay.

Weirdly, this enhanced audio only occur in replay, not when driving :(
 
Yes. According to Griffith500, GT5 just sounds are bad mostly because of the samples. Other than that, it seems that it's superior to every other game.
So me, and I believe some others too, would like some sort of footage comparison or something like that, to show where/at what GT5 sound is better.
That would most certainly put an end to a lot of disussions (and stop others from bringing discussions from multiple pages back), if it is well explained, and uses less technical terminology so people can understand it better.
Obviously, everyone is entitled to their opinions.

But, it's the samples that most people identify with so any positives on effects such as reverb or doppler or anything else is a non issue really..
 
We should resume all this and change the subject of the thread to:

"Give us proper realistic engine samples to each car please!"

Because sound quality is great overall (reverb, doppler and such effects are well made) but the samples are the great fail. The way the mix them, distort, stretch and whatever they do is wrong after you hit the gas.
Car in idle sounds realistic...though the Mazda 787b sounds like it was speeded up a little and I mean not in revs...It sounds like altered at idle...yet one of the bests in the game.

All cars loose credibility after you hit the gas and pass the 2000 to 4000rpm mark.

Samples are what make the cars sounds good as others pointed it out in understandable words.
That´s why Simbin (also sounds were made by a Sound Engineer) sounds are so lovely...yet if you forget about how realistic they are in replays, they loose some overall quality (reverb and doppler effects are not that natural, yet less noticeable than with bad samples).
Onboard I think it sounds lovely.
 
Obviously, everyone is entitled to their opinions.

But, it's the samples that most people identify with so any positives on effects such as reverb or doppler or anything else is a non issue really..

Yes and no. If I were to do these demonstrations, it'd have to be with the same samples for clarity. Any suggestions on how I might achieve that?
 
See Griffith this is what I don't get. You can hear that iRacing and PCars both have superior sound to GT, at least to my unprofessional ear it sounds that way. You obviously have a far greater understanding than me. What I understand is that iRacing and PCars budget is about equivalent in relation to GT, of the amount of money the falls out of Kaz's pocket when he goes to buy a hotdog at a race weekend.

All the theory in the world does not explain why this is so. The only thing that explains it, is that sounds aren't a priority for PD at all and never have been. And as someone mentioned above, that's a shame, given the rabid dedication of it's fanbase, and the amount of money available for it. Wait, wait, wait is always the rallying cry for GT. We've been waiting 15 years.

To me this could not be any clearer than when you look at the credits of GT5 and the sound section.

LEAD SOUND DESIGNER
Masao Kimura

SOUND SIMULATION

Daisuke Takeuchi
Youhei Shimuzu

Three names. Three whole people were working on the sounds of GT5 in the whole of PD.
 
To me this could not be any clearer than when you look at the credits of GT5 and the sound section.

LEAD SOUND DESIGNER
Masao Kimura

SOUND SIMULATION

Daisuke Takeuchi
Youhei Shimuzu

Three names. Three whole people were working on the sounds of GT5 in the whole of PD.

Prologue had about 15 or so sound designers credited, and I think there's a similar number in the long ending movie for GT5.

As I've said before, the key word there is simulation.
 
Does anybody notice any clutch engage delay, ( idont know how to say) feeling in GT5, cuz i know there arent any... How the hell they didnt add this to game, the game almost runs like clutchless, the gears just shifting in lightning speed.

Nowadays im playing GRID 2 , and im shocked by engine distortion samples.
 
Does anybody notice any clutch engage delay, ( idont know how to say) feeling in GT5, cuz i know there arent any... How the hell they didnt add this to game, the game almost runs like clutchless, the gears just shifting in lightning speed.

Nowadays im playing GRID 2 , and im shocked by engine distortion samples.


There is a thread on this that talks about it in more detail to confirm your suspicions, unless you are actually talking about clutch and transmission sounds. But this sounds more like hardware interface with the game or mechanics of the game. Here is the thread.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=285192
 
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