Gran Turismo 6 AI discussion

[lebes14]

ps3 hardware doesn't have jack to do with ai.

Polyphony put so much effort into including 10-15 copies of each car to reach 1000 cars (which, imo, is too much for one game and uses lots of memory) that they didn't put enough into the ai, which, year by year is getting worse and more stale.

I was playing a bit of nfs shift, and was challenged a bit more but instead of being bricks of cement when you try to spin them (as in gt5), they react to the contact. If there is one area that gt got half-right, is the pack racing at daytona. I say half-right because while the draft literally negates any hope of breakaways, the draft can still get you to unrealistic speeds.

Furthermore, an option for the nscs cars like a restrictor plate should be added. It shouldn't be that hard to do, just a little tweak on the physics. Getting the same lap times as a car running the plate requires 80 extra horsepower (around 530 hp in gt5 to 450 hp in 2011) to do 47's, and you'll pull more speed in the draft.

The ai needs pit strategy. Instead of pitting at the limit of tire grip, pit in relation to opponents. For example:
[*]if there are 20 laps to go in the endurance race, then the ai will pit varying from 22-16 laps to go.
[*]if there is light rain, ai may or may not pit for inters, but a fresh dry compound with no fuel. The full stop will be on inters, or full wets.
[*]conversely, if the rain stops, some ai may gamble and remain on wet compounds, whereas others will immediately switch to a dry compound.


I would also like to see a feud/ally system eventually. In this system, relations with certain ai opponents, will cause them to react based on how you race them. For instance if you act like an ass, they will treat you like one. If you race them cleanly, they'll return the same courtesy. Relationships, positive or negative, affect which race, tier of event, which cars, and how many times their name is generated. Some ai with positive relations can even join you in endurance races, as a teammate, similar to rd:grid but different, or as an opponent, either with positive relations or negative relations.

But that's just a little bit of what i want to see as far as improvements to the ai is concerned.

+1 I completely agree with everything you said

 

[lebes14]

Stop whining about A.I. If you want a competitive race, use a slower car. There's almost no need to change A.I.

No, just no. This is the sorriest thing I've ever heard. That goes against the principles of racing to me. Driving slower so you don't catch the rabbit is not racing. I don't remember a single race that was a proper battle.

 

[lebes14]

No, just no. This is the sorriest thing I've ever heard. That goes against the principles of racing to me. Driving slower so you don't catch the rabbit is not racing. I don't remember a single race that was a proper battle.

Edit: Terribly sorry about the double post

 

[Snaeper]

But the complaints come from people using fair cars too.

I completely understand this point. I'm simply saying that I'm sure a majority of the AI complaints (mainly the ones that sound like this "A.I. SUCKS!!!1!one!!1!") come from people who use cars that they probably don't even realize are over-powered.

I think the A.I. needs to be improved, but I don't think they need to strip it down and start from scratch (though that might be good). However, the goal should be to have A.I. that's good enough that you can compete with it (i.e. have a hard time passing the cars) for a few laps when starting from a grid start.

Make that the goal, because I'm stinkin' tired of these silly single-file rolling starts. I do commend PD for at least making the race start when you pass the starting line (as opposed to GT5, where the cars would race off each time they passed the line, with the lead rabbit-car halfway around Suzuka East before you had even gotten under power).

 

[mrkevans]

I just want AI that works, gt3 had much better AI than gt5, they actually gave you a race! In gt5 they give up once you have overtaken their plodding racing line

 

[DRambo]

The DTM A-spec race at Nurburg is the worst. If I remember correctly, you have to use a DTM car. Change down to sports or comfort tires (AI using RH) fully turn the engine power down and you are still in front after a few corners.

These could be really good races, but they're the very opposite.

 

[Zuku]

I just want AI that works, gt3 had much better AI than gt5, they actually gave you a race! In gt5 they give up once you have overtaken their plodding racing line

See here is the thing though GT3 and GT4 A.I for that matter didn't know you existed as a player so they would ram you. I did hate that, but the only reason the races were ever competitive you didn't have all these higher powered cars like you do now.

I think the highest powered car in GT3 (exlcuded the Pikes Peak Car) was a Nissan maybe I'm wrong, and also I don't think it was by much either.

If not maybe the Mazda 787B car was(I still like that car).

 

[1241Penguin]

Right, I've just made a new observation.

THE GT5 AI HAS NO AWARENESS OF THE HUMAN DRIVER!!! /rant

If you tried to take one of those twits on the inside, they'll just close in on you. I've practically given up on GT5 as there is simply nothing left to do.

 

[PaullyS]

Hi all, I searched for a thread like this and didn't find anything. I have recently bought Shift 2 because it was on sale, and while it has its flaws, the racing is extremely fun, close, exciting and rewarding. I don't want this to turn into a slagging session for either Shift or GT, I just wanted to see what others thought about what would make the racing better in GT5, in terms of the opponent AI skills.

I think it's more than just making the cars faster. They seem more intelligent in Shift - they take different lines depending on what you are doing, i.e. taking a defensive line if you're closing in on them, they race each other and make mistakes if you pressure them. I did an endurance race recently where I caught the lead car on about lap 6, but just couldn't get past. On lap 9 I spun because I got impatient. I caught the lead car again on lap 18 and finally got past cleanly on lap 19. It was such fun. I don't think I've ever had a race like that on GT5 (except online!!). Do other studios have more resources for AI development? Why is GT so far behind in this aspect (and one or two others, eg damage), when they are so spot on in most other aspects?

 

[PepeMickey]

They need a complete overhaul. I think GT5 has the most realistic AI as in real world racing etiquette, most games make more competitive AI but at the cost of it crashing into you very often or braking so late that they end up off-track. This can happen in real life but it's not as often as most racing games make out to be like FM4. Shift 2 suffers a little bit from this, they are too agressive at times.

What we all ask for has never been done before, a fast competitive AI but also aware of you and intelligent enough to back off when there is really no choice and at the same time, make a move if they see a gap.

 

[PaullyS]

I guess AI opponents that avoid contact makes sense in games where the damage model is extreme, but not in a game like GT5. If contact more than likely ended your race then you could justify how cautious the GT5 AI is, but they go to such extremes to avoid contact that it makes overtaking far, far too easy. I've been reading the Project CARS AI discussion thread, and the level of detail they are going into is immense. I really hope GT6 will catch up a bit.

Oh, and while I think about it - has anyone else noticed that's its almost impossible to make the AI cars spin in GT5? It's like they are fixed to rails or something.

 

[Earth]

Oh, and while I think about it - has anyone else noticed that's its almost impossible to make the AI cars spin in GT5? It's like they are fixed to rails or something.

I've designed my own AI in Little Big Planet. One of the problems I had is the AI not crashing when struck by the player car or even another AI. They still tried to follow the racing line, and were able to do that to a very unrealistic level. I believe the AI in GT5 suffers from the same thing.

To fix the problem I designed the AI to lose control of their car once they made contact with the player or another AI. I made it where they could no longer follow the racing line.

The idea the AI is still nearly impossible to spin out in GT5 shows just how lazy development has been in that area.

 

[PepeMickey]

I've designed my own AI in Little Big Planet. One of the problems I had is the AI not crashing when struck by the player car or even another AI. They still tried to follow the racing line, and were able to do that to a very unrealistic level. I believe the AI in GT5 suffers from the same thing.

To fix the problem I designed the AI to lose control of their car once they made contact with the player or another AI. I made it where they could no longer follow the racing line.

The idea the AI is still nearly impossible to spin out in GT5 shows just how lazy development has been in that area.

The same thing happens in FM4, those guys are driving tanks for cars, they can spin you out without effort. One time Ii got annoyed so I tried to spin those mother*****rs out by pushing their side-rear panel out off my way and I ended up losing control while they just swerved a little a bit and continued following their racing line.

Even if you get them off-track with a head-on collision, you are done with damage on "simulation" and the sticky grass, you won't move, it's over but then you see the AI just recovering like in 3 seconds and they are good to go.

At least in Shift 2, a collision like that would have meant the end for both you and the AI car.

 

[mister dog]

I would literally cry if GT6 comes out and they haven't bothered improving the AI. If we have to deal with the same blind bots that come to a halt in the middle of slow corners, and 'surrender ' to you if you pass them, combined with the chase the rabbit formula we had in GT5, will you go out and buy GT6?

Also for the lucky few that actually had the chance to try GT6 @ E3, have you noticed any difference in the AI? This as no one that wrote a report about it seems to have mentioned it so far.

 

[CoolColJ]

Arcade AI in GT5 past spec 2.0 is better than you think.

 

[Cosbuster]

If we have to deal with the same blind bots that come to a halt in the middle of slow corners, and 'surrender ' to you if you pass them, combined with the chase the rabbit formula we had in GT5, will you go out and buy GT6?

This will be the final nail in the game's coffin for me. Passive AI and rabbit chaces is something I will not be able to tolerate for one more game. I'll simply grab a 360 with F4 and save myself from all that crap.

Arcade AI in GT5 past spec 2.0 is better than you think.

Which begs the question, why don't we have the same AI for A-spec races if they proved they can do it (at least to an extend)? Maybe they actually want the AI to be crap for some weird twisted reason.

 

[tribolik]

This will be the final nail in the game's coffin for me. Passive AI and rabbit chaces is something I will not be able to tolerate for one more game. I'll simply grab a 360 with F4 and save myself from all that crap.




Which begs the question, why don't we have the same AI for A-spec races if they proved they can do it (at least to an extend)? Maybe they actually want the AI to be crap for some weird twisted reason.

I think its pretty obvious... they want the game to be accessible to all players. Begginers included

But that could solved by adding difficulty levels to Aspec

 

[sems4arsenal]

A.I is a high target for PD ,Kaz always mentioned it ,So a pretty good chance they are working on it

 

[mr_serious]

Arcade AI in GT5 past spec 2.0 is better than you think.

but still nowhere near good enough. PD's crappy AI was ok when you only had PS1 digital controllers, but even then people complained they were too simplistic. Forgivable perhaps on the PS1, but honestly it has barely improved since.

They made so many promises about improved AI before the GT5 release & look what we got, probably the least competitive version of GT ever.

The fact they haven't mentioned the AI yet, makes me worry they have given it a low priority yet again.

Try before buying is my policy for GT6 (I pre-ordered every other version)

 

[sems4arsenal]

but still nowhere near good enough. PD's crappy AI was ok when you only had PS1 digital controllers, but even then people complained they were too simplistic. Forgivable perhaps on the PS1, but honestly it has barely improved since.

They made so many promises about improved AI before the GT5 release & look what we got, probably the least competitive version of GT ever.

The fact they haven't mentioned the AI yet, makes me worry they have given it a low priority yet again.

Try before buying is my policy for GT6 (I pre-ordered every other version)

Is there an A.I difficulty settings in A Spec events ?

 

[tribolik]

Is there an A.I difficulty settings in A Spec events ?

No, from what I can remember, havent played it for over a year now

 

[mr_serious]

Is there an A.I difficulty settings in A Spec events ?

I have no idea, but there should be. Most racing games I have ever played have always solved the accessibility problem by providing adjustable difficulty settings.

This seems to be another area where PD prefer to go their own weird way <sigh>

Although GT4 or GT5p, I cant remember which, allowed you to set a difficulty. Although the AI were still unconvincing lifeless zombies.

 

[sems4arsenal]

I can't remember also but they have to understand there is a big difference in lap times from experienced wheel users and your average Controller gamer,you can't have the same A.I race both

 

[Zuku]

It wasn't until GT4 I noticed the A.I problem only because it felt easier to lap around them in GT4 that wasn't how GT3 was for me, and I guess it took awhile to finally win a car where it was too fast for the A.I unlike GT4.

Still if GT6 even remotely has something similar to GT5 as far as A.I is concerned I'm done. I think the casual gamers would also like having some degree of difficulty.

 

[CoolColJ]

The problem with this GT structure is the "career" mode - which makes it hard to have a difficulty level.

The only way I can see it working is to have the AI get progressively harder as you move up the ranks.

This is a GT5 Spec 2.0 AI arcade race at Spa - I finished the middle of the pack in a tuned 370z. No chance of catching first place. AI set to max aggression

 

[Cosbuster]

Unfortunately, not being able to catch the rabbit is not proper indication of an acceptable AI level in any way. When you start 12th from a rolling start, you shouldn't be expected to catch the leader in 2-3 laps. Not to mention you were in a tuned nissan overtaking faster supercars in corners like they were fiats .

 

[Fogerty_Jr]

AI improvement and A-SPEC durability are my core requirements. Should they fail at improving them, as far as I'm concerned the game stays on the shelf, no matter how amazingly the sunsets are rendered.

 

[CoolColJ]

Unfortunately, not being able to catch the rabbit is not proper indication of an acceptable AI level in any way. When you start 12th from a rolling start, you shouldn't be expected to catch the leader in 2-3 laps. Not to mention you were in a tuned nissan overtaking faster supercars in corners like they were fiats .

Not a stock 370z, this one is GT4 spec just about
So tuned 370z vs stock cars.

You do see the 370z race against "supercars" in GT4 spec races after all...

It was still a fun and competitive race, you see them hang with me and give a good fight, without driving dirty. They are aware of me and the other cars around them

edit -

also GT5rologue AI was better than the GT5 A-Spec race AI

example -excuse the CRT video camera work

 

[ItsHim]

Over in the Grid2 section someone complained about a video because he thought the AI was abysmal. He didn't catch the fact this was video footage from an online race

Same could happen here

 

[mr_serious]

The problem with this GT structure is the "career" mode - which makes it hard to have a difficulty level.

plenty of other racing games have career mode & difficulty settings. It's not rocket science.

Especially if they actually design the races with restrictions (tyres, weight, HP, model) like actual racing.