Gran Turismo 6 AI discussion

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If the game will include "1000's" of custom parts. I'd like to see tunned/customized AI vehicles. They could be presets made by PD, including: Custom Paint, Rims, Aero and Custom transmission that matches track and car performance.

In GT5 all AI vehicles have a dull stock look. :ill:

This is a serious issue that we don't talk much about. Yes, I want to race against tuned cars! Just like mine, visually modified! Wheels! Wings!
 
I had pondered creating custom races in Arcade Mode, picking the AI cars from the Home Garage.
 
Morgoth mentioned what is the absolute worst AI tendency. Braking on exit. At the bare minimum this irritating behavior needs to be eliminated. I used to run heavy damage on my 'Ring Arcades until I got so tired of rear ending a braking AI. Just as I'm accelerating on exit, BAM! Braking OUT of a turn, just no.

I can deal with dumbing down my tires as I'm of the opinion GT5's default tires have gotten too grippy. But needing to drive in an unnaturally defensive trailing manner has got to go.

I actually don't have much trouble with them doing that to me at the Ring, probably it's just become instinctive knowing where they'll do it and so staying to the side in those spots after 1,000-odd races there. It does usually take me a few laps to get used to some of their oddities after I haven't raced them in a while.

But I had to give up in frustration after 90 minutes of trying to run a race at Le Mans last night without ever being able to make it more than 3 laps without the AI braking into me on exit, braking into me when on a perfect line right before an apex, swerving into me just before a corner entry, bashing me off track mid corner(obviously on their way to reaching the road's edge too early and braking) or one of my great pet-peeves that GT5 shares with rFactor: the megabrake they engage at the end of a heavy braking zone when they suddenly bleed off 25mph in one tenth of a second and you instantly go from 30 feet behind them to being attached to their bumper(why don't they use that when they are behind me?). The combination of the super-draft and my unfamiliar MP4-12C didn't make things any easier of course.

It's almost as if you need to fully learn a racetrack twice. Once to learn how to drive the track itself, and then once again to learn how the AI drives it and how to avoid them. Every game has this to some extent, but the more strangely they drive the more difficult is it to learn how close you can run with them as it requires you to do more things that you instinctively don't want to do.

We do ask a lot of developers to get AI perfect, but it is important that they at least don't make sudden insane moves such as these and the famous GT5 parking in order to be able to have them be anything more than the time-trial obstacles they are in the GT series. The braking-on-exit thing should be easy enough to fix by just spending a few more minutes per track giving them a proper race line that lets them accelerate cleanly out of a corner, even if that sacrifices a little apex speed to set it up. Speaking of spending just a few more minutes per track, how hard could it honestly be to stop them from swerving all over and slamming on their brakes in the run from Flugplatz to Schwedenkreuz for crying out loud?? Surely several million restarts across the GT5 userbase could have been eliminated by fixing that one section of just one track. Ok, 3-5 tracks - I've noticed it seems worst on the Nordschleife alone but they do it on all three layouts.

I'd personally prioritize an AI that doesn't constantly hit me or force me to hit them over one that makes high-quality defensive and overtaking maneuvers and adjusts its pace intelligently according to a race strategy, or even that can run a lighting-fast pace. That may have been the intent of the GT5 AI patch but it did not work at all.



Sometimes I don't think it's possible for me to make a post less than 1,000 words... at least not on this subject. I start with two sentences and end up with a novel, every time. :ill:
 
I had pondered creating custom races in Arcade Mode, picking the AI cars from the Home Garage.

That would indeed have been a great and fairly easy(you'd think) band-aid fix for the lack of a proper event creator. Even if it meant you had 15 more cars to constantly shuffle in and out of your favorites, it would at least let you race the race you want.
 
Kaz himself said in Jordan's latest interview that the AI won't be the same as in GT5. Looking forward to seeing how much better it will be.
 
If the game will include "1000's" of custom parts. I'd like to see tunned/customized AI vehicles. They could be presets made by PD, including: Custom Paint, Rims, Aero and Custom transmission that matches track and car performance.

In GT5 all AI vehicles have a dull stock look. :ill:
This is a serious issue that we don't talk much about. Yes, I want to race against tuned cars! Just like mine, visually modified! Wheels! Wings!
I had pondered creating custom races in Arcade Mode, picking the AI cars from the Home Garage.
A few others have mentioned that. While that would be a terrific idea for a GT5 patch, I'm hoping that PD will do the work for us. Excuse me while I bring up "the other game," but Forza has a series of what they call Unicorn Cars made by T10 and placed in the Auction House periodically. These are tuned and often liveried cars whipped up by the guys, and are highly prized by the collector faithful. Something like this would be ideal for Polyphony to make, not just as collectibles, but as tuner cars to include in modification-allowed races. Just as with Forza's Car Classes, they could be of various Performance Point ranges so they could flesh out a field with a number of these unique beasts.

it is important that (the bots) at least don't make sudden insane moves such as these and the famous GT5 parking in order to be able to have them be anything more than the time-trial obstacles they are in the GT series. The braking-on-exit thing should be easy enough to fix by just spending a few more minutes per track giving them a proper race line that lets them accelerate cleanly out of a corner, even if that sacrifices a little apex speed to set it up.
Kaz himself said in Jordan's latest interview that the AI won't be the same as in GT5. Looking forward to seeing how much better it will be.
These sort of go together. If anyone has taken the time to watch a bot in a replay - and this is since I last watched about a year or so ago, so they may have possibly changed this - the bots in Gran Turismo since the very beginning have used the brakes in a stomp-happy way, either mashed to the floor or off, and sometimes fluttering rapidly. This is at least as important as having bots race somewhat like humans, and in my estimation, the most important factor to mend.

Bringing up Forza again, T10 is doing some fascinating Drivatar experiments, using their adaptive learning code to pick up traits from not just how you race, but sampling the racing techniques across the Live network. I doubt that this is like the breakthrough Kaz is talking about, but as long as PD is tinkering, it's something to consider.
 
Well if you consider GT's career mode like an RPG MMO game, then you can see why it's not as easy as having an Easy, Medium, Hard difficulty system...

The people on easy, will have more cars, credits etc
Everyone would just go easy, to avoid the grind etc

well I don't consider it like that at all. Career mode is definitely not MMO.

For me racing games are skill based games and nothing more. I don't care if other people play the game on easy - if they don't want a challenge what do I care?

I see that as part of the problem that has destroyed this game. people treating it like an RPG.
 
I had pondered creating custom races in Arcade Mode, picking the AI cars from the Home Garage.
Almost three years I'm telling this to the forum.

Want to see how the new AI works in GT6. Hopefully a "pace slide" we can use if they are still too slow and no more rabbits.
 
I would love for PD to Elmer Fudd the rabbits. And if anyone recalls Prologue, there was a cool 1 - 100 difficulty selector for the bots. It wouldn't just make them harder to beat, but also increase the performance levels of the cars, going to ever more powerful vehicles until at 99 or 100, you were racing against Formula 1. Something like that would be great to bring back for GT6, such as with an Event Maker.
 
Almost three years I'm telling this to the forum.

Want to see how the new AI works in GT6. Hopefully a "pace slide" we can use if they are still too slow and no more rabbits.

GT Prologue, as Tenacious D said, had it. NFS Underground 2 had it. Heck, even Pocket Rally Lite has it! I seriously think PD should implement this on GT6, because we want hard races, simply created.
 
I would love for PD to Elmer Fudd the rabbits. And if anyone recalls Prologue, there was a cool 1 - 100 difficulty selector for the bots. It wouldn't just make them harder to beat, but also increase the performance levels of the cars, going to ever more powerful vehicles until at 99 or 100, you were racing against Formula 1. Something like that would be great to bring back for GT6, such as with an Event Maker.

Wait, here's the problem. The slider need to improve AI pace only, not giving them faster cars. I would race Super GT's against other Super GT's not against F1's! It's like the developers are cheating, not giving faster AI just giving them faster cars. That's plain wrong.
 
Here is part of an interview with Kazunori Yamauchi circa 1998 on Gran Turismo 1 (taken From Wikipedia):

“Yamauchi estimated that Gran Turismo utilized around 75% of the Playstation’s maximum performance. Sound design was one aspect that Yamauchi believed was compromised due to a lack of time. And although Kazunori considered the game’s artificial intelligence to be superior to its competitors, he remained unsatisfied with its development.”

Its amazing how nothing has changed in 15 years……. My bet is that GT is still, and always will be,
A great racing/simulator game that lacks in sound and AI.
 
The AI work well in higher PP cars. I use 620-650pp race cars w/RH tyres in Arcade Mode. There's no chasing the rabbit. It's the lower pp class that needed the most reworking. It's cool, at least we know change is coming.
 
As long as you don't "cheat" the AI it isn't that bad. Very passive and defensive though, for sure, but also quite consistant and smooth in driving.

I'd hate it if the AI gets replaced by satos or grosjeans.
 
As long as you don't "cheat" the AI it isn't that bad. Very passive and defensive though, for sure, but also quite consistant and smooth in driving.

I'd hate it if the AI gets replaced by satos or grosjeans.

+1

i'd hate it if the AI becomes something like the AI in forza...
 
As long as you don't "cheat" the AI it isn't that bad. Very passive and defensive though, for sure, but also quite consistant and smooth in driving.

I'd hate it if the AI gets replaced by satos or grosjeans.

I don't want vettels as well.. :nervous:
 
The AI is much better in Arcade mode in GT5. It's still far from perfect but it proves that it is possible for PD to create decent AI.
I just did a 10 lap Nurburgring 24hr race against AI in a stock Honda weider HSV-010 (SUPER GT) '11 with full day/night transition.
Had some great battles with the AI in a very competitive race and finished 4th after about 1hr and 1/2 of racing.
Point being, that A spec mode AI is where PD really need to improve things for GT6.
It's also up to the player to create competitive races with tyre and pp choice if he/she so chooses.
 
You have to remeber the AI PD created can run on any track, even standing start, course generator tracks - that's easier said than done

This is pre spec 2.0 demo I made a while back with Super GT cars, more to showcase the track I generated, but AI can drive it OK

 
If just draft weren't that strong and the AI were better on the brakes (maybe they simply wanted to make overtaking easier?)...
 
That's a point, maybe the way the AI navigates the tracks is causing a fundamental slowness in corners? Are they having to change the way that works to something that can better read the road?
 
But the virtual engine mapping and gear changes are sporadic. You can hear the AI shifting sometimes 4x during cornering. I read Forza has adaptive bots. I wonder if PD are doing something similar for AI.
 
LFS has that, too. It was fun in early versions of the game to teach them bad habits, because if you were faster than them, they'd copy you. Then they were updated to be faster overall (better starting "knowledge") and they tended not to copy me anymore :(

If PD add adaptive AI, they had better have had some serious adaptation before racing against me, I've seen machine learning in action...
 
It's also up to the player to create competitive races with tyre and pp choice if he/she so chooses.

No, it's not. It's up to PD to provide tyre and PP restrictions for a race, and an AI that is competitive within those restrictions.

Racing with crippled cars is not fun, because you have to beat them in the corners but they beat you on the straights, or vice versa. Competitive, equal machinery with bots to drive them well.

If they want us to create our own competitive races, give us an option for AI difficulty. That's why that option was added to every other game.
 
No, it's not. It's up to PD to provide tyre and PP restrictions for a race, and an AI that is competitive within those restrictions.

Racing with crippled cars is not fun, because you have to beat them in the corners but they beat you on the straights, or vice versa. Competitive, equal machinery with bots to drive them well.

If they want us to create our own competitive races, give us an option for AI difficulty. That's why that option was added to every other game.

Why do you need restrictions? In my opinion it is up to the player.
What is the fun in racing a 900PP car when the AI is running kei cars?

I think it is good to have the option to get an higher PP car if you need it to win.
If you are an good GT- driver you can drive what ever the AI is driving.
And stay away from racing softs.

Tho option to set the AI level will be a good think, I agree on that point.
 
Why do you need restrictions? In my opinion it is up to the player.
What is the fun in racing a 900PP car when the AI is running kei cars?

I think it is good to have the option to get an higher PP car if you need it to win.
If you are an good GT- driver you can drive what ever the AI is driving.
And stay away from racing softs.

Tho option to set the AI level will be a good think, I agree on that point.

While I don't mind the model GT5 currently uses... I found a much more enjoyable experience playing GT2's career than I did 5's (GT2 being the last GT game I played before 5). I really enjoyed building a car within the specs of horsepower and tires.

And really, there's no reason not to essentially do both. Example: The Specs represent a car that is just at the front of the competitive spectrum of cars you're racing against. If you make a car with as many parts as possible and set it up to the maximum specs, you're still going to face some relatively stiff competition from the AI at first, but in the long run it'll be a cakewalk. However, if you choose to simply run an eligible car stock, you will have a more challenging and more rewarding (or frustrating) experience.

There's really no sense in having unlimited restrictions on most races. It's not what they do in real life after all.

It also helps if PD makes more events for us to use all of our cars in, so we don't feel the compulsion to race a Ford Focus RS against a bunch of old Peugeot's and Citroen's.
 
Why do you need restrictions? In my opinion it is up to the player.
What is the fun in racing a 900PP car when the AI is running kei cars?

I think it is good to have the option to get an higher PP car if you need it to win.
If you are an good GT- driver you can drive what ever the AI is driving.
And stay away from racing softs.

Tho option to set the AI level will be a good think, I agree on that point.

Because I don't want to spend an hour figuring out what's an appropriately challenging PP level for a given race. That's the developer's job, not mine. I just want to be able to get in and know that I'll get a challenging race.

And equal cars is not a challenge in GT, and never has been. The AI is awful. Maybe they're challenging if you're playing with a controller, but I doubt it.

If people want to be able to turn restrictions off, that's fine. I have no objection to that, I think it's a good idea. But that's an easy option to include for those that enjoy it.

Other driving games give me restrictions that make sense within the context of the race and will give a challenge. AND they give me the option to overtune if I just want to win. Why can't GT do this? What is so much better about not knowing what a competitive car is and having to figure it out for yourself?
 
As long as you don't "cheat" the AI it isn't that bad. Very passive and defensive though, for sure, but also quite consistant and smooth in driving.

I'd hate it if the AI gets replaced by satos or grosjeans.
What about drivers like hamilton alonso vettel rosberg webber raikkonen instead?

hamilton good at overtaking and some eventual crash
alonso alien pace in the 2nd half of the race
vettel and rosberg alien qualification skills
raikkonen cold blood under pressure

Would be cool if AI try to simulate distinctive behaviour for each driver. They obviously don't need to use official names though.
 
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