Gran Turismo 6 general Physics Discussion(as well as video)

Samus
No because it's a faff setting my wheel up, I may do it before the end of the demo. I'm aware it's a controller thing but that doesn't mean it's not an issue.

Well in reality if you can steer quickly and accurately and far enough any slide is correctable. And it doesn't matter how many weaves have gone before it either, it's not like there is an elastic band which you stretch further each time you change the direction the car is pointing.
 
Sport Hards=track day tires. They feel fine to me. If I took my car to Silverstone for serious hot lapping, I'd bring my handy Sports Hards and put the Comforts on the trailer next to the Skid Recovery Force.
 
Sport Hards=track day tires. They feel fine to me. If I took my car to Silverstone for serious hot lapping, I'd bring my handy Sports Hards and put the Comforts on the trailer next to the Skid Recovery Force.

Don't you hate it when your Skid Recovery Force escapes from its leash forcing you to chase after it?
 
Samus - there is quite a bit of hand holding when using a control pad.
If the controls were 1:1 it would be like driving real cars with a RC controller, and would be undriveable :)
There are steering lock limits for sure, on the pad. So your driving with a "fly by wire" system

Try the same thing with a wheel and you won't be able to keep up with the car's attitude.
You can only get a few degrees of steering lock on each tug with a wheel, in the same time span
 
Physics testing with the GT-R this time.
It doesn't roll as much as the Leaf and 370z :)

Surprisingly neutral and agile, grippy, yet easy to drift thanks to the tricky 4WD system. It does donuts as easy as a RWD. All a first for a GT-R in a GT game

edit - surprised how long the tyre marks stay!
 
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Physics testing with the GT-R this time.
It doesn't roll as much as the Leaf and 370z :)

Surprisingly neutral and agile, grippy, yet easy to drift thanks to the tricky 4WD system. It does donuts as easy as a RWD. All a first for a GT-R in a GT game

Massive leap from GT5.

Very impressive.👍
 
Don't you hate it when your Skid Recovery Force escapes from its leash forcing you to chase after it?
:lol:
Sport Hards=track day tires. They feel fine to me. If I took my car to Silverstone for serious hot lapping, I'd bring my handy Sports Hards and put the Comforts on the trailer next to the Skid Recovery Force.
With GT5, I haven't cared about serious hot lapping until recently, but even then, I still choose to use the harder grip economy tires. With what GT6 is made out to be and from what I've seen and felt, Sports Hard tires for a car like the TUNED 370z will be fine, but I might upgrade from GT5's CM to CS tires in GT6 for the STOCK 370z; that will only be for serious hot lapping. I'll see what happens. I'll see what my preference is once I have the launch version of GT6 at my feet. I'm only assuming as it is now.


Physics testing with the GT-R this time.
It doesn't roll as much as the Leaf and 370z :)

Surprisingly neutral and agile, grippy, yet easy to drift thanks to the tricky 4WD system. It does donuts as easy as a RWD. All a first for a GT-R in a GT game

edit - surprised how long the tyre marks stay!

That's refreshing to see and hear about the tire marks. I wouldn't have cared to realize it, otherwise. The tire marks' longevity is pretty good in GT5 as it is now, but I wouldn't have noticed a difference if you didn't point it out.


For the people that didn't notice it, through the updates for GT5, the tire marks seemed to have taken a "little" overhaul. There was a different system to show them. It used to be that OLD skids would completely disappear in a moment, but after an update, they would only gradually disappear. Oh PS4 :sly:.
 
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Hm... Just had a thought. I want to put slick tires on relatively wide cars in GT6 final and see whether the suspension practically rips off in response.
 
The GT-R is fun, but I don't think it has a dynamic AWD system like it should. The technology is very possible. For example, we can change the torque distribution by hand while we're on the track in GT5. I can imagine a similar algorithm to traction control can be used, one that moves the torque up front instead of cutting horsepower/limiting the throttle.
 
Hm... Just had a thought. I want to put slick tires on relatively wide cars in GT6 final and see whether the suspension practically rips off in response.

I can't see what your talking about. Are you saying putting slippery tires/comfort hard on a wide car to see if the tires rips off the rims due to the heat of the tires.
 
I can't see what your talking about. Are you saying putting slippery tires/comfort hard on a wide car to see if the tires rips off the rims due to the heat of the tires.

No. I'm saying that with substantially grippy tires (which racing-spec tires would be) even a moderately stiffly sprung and somewhat wide road car should do something like this:

75685544-M.jpg


As shown by the 350z comparison picture. And that it will be entertaining as hell if it does in GT6. Nevermind what would happen in something with a particularly crappy chassis or suspension, like a 60s muscle car or something. As it is now, the only cars that really have that behavior in GT5 are extreme cases like the VW Beetle.
 
Physics testing with the GT-R this time.
It doesn't roll as much as the Leaf and 370z :)

Surprisingly neutral and agile, grippy, yet easy to drift thanks to the tricky 4WD system. It does donuts as easy as a RWD. All a first for a GT-R in a GT game

edit - surprised how long the tyre marks stay!

The GT-R is a completely different animal in the demo vs. GT5. It bodes well for the future.
 
I think that there is too much grip.

Everyone is saying this, but the cars don't seem to be any faster than they were in GT5. I took the stock 370z GT-A in GT5 around GVE/R (No tire wear, ABS @ 1, 5/5 brake balance, no other assists), and I was within 0.100 seconds of what I could get in the demo (1:13.5XX). What we are experiencing is a massive increase of bite in the tires rather than an increase of grip. When I say bite, I mean that we are a little more glued to the track, but we aren't going any faster. A change in grip would show in lap times. For example, try comparing a Yellowbird with Racing Softs to a SLS AMG/NSX Type R/Ford GT on Sports Hards. The Yellowbird would be the car with high grip and low bite, and the other cars would be a strong sense of bite but less grip. It's a good improvement in my opinion.
 
If the controls were 1:1 it would be like driving real cars with a RC controller, and would be undriveable :)

This is not true. PC sims can be rigged to drive with a controller with no assists. It's harder, but it's by no means impossible. You just have to learn to be smooth instead of slamming the stick from side to side.
 
This is not true. PC sims can be rigged to drive with a controller with no assists. It's harder, but it's by no means impossible. You just have to learn to be smooth instead of slamming the stick from side to side.
But with the conditions of a "game" like GT, the controlling of a car is mostly easier under frantic conditions with a controller.

Edited after RIDOX2JGTE -
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=43999878&postcount=209
"- its physics is developed from-wheel-to-controller (since GT3) and not vice-versa. Result is equal physics for all types of input devices where controller players do not have usual advantage over wheel players (as on all other console driving games) and they can drive in the same race with equal precision and handicaps (it is the greatest part of Akihiko Tan's magic regarding physics of GT series IMO) which creates extremely competitive environment non-related to input device"

Since I quote him often, let it be against my side during this "discussion". It STILL DOESN'T mean that it isn't easier for us to control the driving with a contoller DS3 than a vidjya game steering wheel. Quicker responses at all times with a DS3. More precise, no.
 
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This is not true. PC sims can be rigged to drive with a controller with no assists. It's harder, but it's by no means impossible. You just have to learn to be smooth instead of slamming the stick from side to side.

I play Nascar Racing 2003 with DS2 stick - using PC adapter that I also use on PS3, no abs, no assists from the game, it's definitely very hard to control steering wise ( twitchy ), while throttle and brake are fine ( just like in GT )

Sometimes the pendulum effect in racing sim are exaggerated, or it may have to do with smoothness or responsiveness of the steering input.

Here is a Manji practice - slalom and zig zag, shown by the legendary Yasuyuki Kazama, then practiced by Daisuke Ito. Very cool video !!



From the video, at certain speed, a car can be driven in such a way that the pendulum effect can be controlled easily, it's all in throttle control and smooth steering. Kazama says it's easy :D Don't miss the end slalom test performed by Ito :)

I really wanted someday in GT we can do that !!!
 
take a look the post above you.

I have an impression that Exorcet is a MS agent, as we know that company has a lot of its agents across boards like this one, on every genre of games. I have not played Forza 5 myself , but I listened to many professional reports and they say Forza 5 feels the same as Forza 4, not all arcadey, not yet sim like. The one easy to spot difference is the Forza behaving at high speeds, totally controllable, like a NFS game, while in Gran Turismo one small mistake (depending on the car and driving skills) and you're out. That's just one difference, I just pointed it out because anyone can see it and agree on it.

Professional reports also say that all of the forza games in total have not exceeded one GT game in the sales department, although it is promoted very much, but people are not stupid. It's good that these Forza fans cannot influence most opinions, GT6 will still be a very, very interesting game to play.
 
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Playing the demo has certainly been a challenge for me as i've been playing FM4 using a controller these past 6 months and haven't touched GT5 with my G25 wheel.

Upon starting the GT6 demo the first thing I noticed is just how incredibly realistic the physics are especially compared to Forza 4. I managed a 2.22.179 laptime after just 10mins which im pretty pleased with considering I haven't used a steering wheel for such a long time. I then decided to use the DS3 and the first thing I noticed is how the cars appear easier to drive compared to GT5.

Having said all of this does being more realistic mean more enjoyable because it is a video game after all. My answer is using my G25 wheel I love the GT6 physics but when it comes to using a controller I prefer Forza 4. The physics on FM4 are far more arcadey compared to GT6 but what doesn't help is the DS3 is crap compared to the Xbox 360 controller.
 
I have an impression that Exorcet is a MS agent, as we know that company has a lot of its agents across boards like this one, on every genre of games.
Yes. Only a Microsoft agent (whatever the hell that is) would take issue with the statement that the "Gran Turismo 6 demo has by far the best physics I have seen in any game"

And those crafty bastards slipped him in place 5 years ago, gave him some extremely detailed knowledge about various engineering subjects (most notably aerodynamics), then made him play GT games all the way up to half a year ago when he bought a 360 and got Forza 4 for the first time. A true sleeper cell.


I have not played Forza 5 myself , but I listened to many professional reports and they say Forza 5 feels the same as Forza 4, not all arcadey, not yet sim like.
That's a quantifiable analysis if there ever was one.

The one easy to spot difference is the Forza behaving at high speeds, totally controllable, like a NFS game, while in Gran Turismo one small mistake (depending on the car and driving skills) and you're out. That's just one difference, I just pointed it out because anyone can see it and agree on it.
Nah, you just pointed it out to make it absolutely clear that you have no idea what you are talking about because it's not actually true.


Professional reports also say that all of the forza games in total have not exceeded one GT game in the sales department, although it is promoted very much, but people are not stupid.

SALES! SALES = QUALITY PHYSICS!


Anything else, or can we get back to talking about the GT6 demo's physics rather than idiotic allegations that certain members are paid by Microsoft to crap on GT games just because they took issue with extremely hyperbolic statements?
 
Tornado I stated my opinion which was honest, I never pointed out a certain game that Gran Turismo stomps on, but then he comes(Exorcet) and sais Forza has better physics, so who started it..? I do feel that GT6 is the next generation sim, and I do feel that Forza games are simplistic, I use a steering wheel in GT and I own car, I know I am right because my experience tells me so. I said that the overall physics package in Gran Turismo is the best I have ever seen. I don't care much about other sim games the way I do about Gran Turismo.

wOSrgQG.jpg
 
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I believe you were told yesterday that it is because your using a joypad and it has assistance because it is not a direct control device. (Degree for degree movement)

I tried that with my DFGT and spun just as I expected to. Have you repeated it with your wheel?
Samus - there is quite a bit of hand holding when using a control pad.
If the controls were 1:1 it would be like driving real cars with a RC controller, and would be undriveable :)
There are steering lock limits for sure, on the pad. So your driving with a "fly by wire" system

Try the same thing with a wheel and you won't be able to keep up with the car's attitude.
You can only get a few degrees of steering lock on each tug with a wheel, in the same time span
It's the same physics engine no matter how you play. If you can do something, it's because the physics engine allows it. If the physics engine allows something wrong, the physics engine is wrong. The type of controller doesn't determine the behavior of the car. It only affects how your inputs are translated into the game.

If you equipped a real car with electric motors and levers to operate the controls and create a full-size R/C car (it's been done), and those electric motors could spin the steering wheel as quickly as Samus was doing with the Z in the video, the car would NOT react the way it did in his video. Not even close. That's the point -- the motions he was generating defy the laws of physics. They're wrong.

Even if you can't recreate that specific maneuver from the video, you should be concerned about it, because it has implications for all countersteer/oversteer situations, the ones that you can perform easily with a wheel. The game is lending you a helping hand; you just may not realize it.
Well in reality if you can steer quickly and accurately and far enough any slide is correctable. And it doesn't matter how many weaves have gone before it either, it's not like there is an elastic band which you stretch further each time you change the direction the car is pointing.
Sorry, but that's far from the truth. The catch is the "far enough" part, because at some point you simply run out of steering lock, and if the car still has angular momentum left when you reach that point, it's going to keep rotating into a spin.

Also, yes, that momentum can build into ever-bigger slides. That's why people often lose control when they start fish-tailing, as each (over)correction snowballs into a harsher slide with more force than the last. Mind you, I'm not claiming that side-to-side drifts will always end this way, but the way Samus is throwing the car around in the video ought to generate more drama than it does.
The one easy to spot difference is the Forza behaving at high speeds, totally controllable, like a NFS game, while in Gran Turismo one small mistake (depending on the car and driving skills) and you're out. That's just one difference, I just pointed it out because anyone can see it and agree on it.
IMO there's nothing realistic about the way GT5 bites you at high speeds. It happens in circumstances that don't make sense, on cars that shouldn't behave that way. "Difficult" does not equate to "real." In some ways, Gran Turismo should be more difficult (see above). In other ways, Gran Turismo should actually be made easier. What's important is what is accurate.
 
Tornado I stated my opinion which was honest, I never pointed out a certain game that Gran Turismo stomps on, but then he comes(Exorcet) and sais Forza has better physics, so who started it..?

You did with the initial statement he was responding to in the first place. If you actually read his response rather than just the bit georgetigra pulled out for having the dreaded F-word in it, you would have seen that he summarized (to a certain extent) what he felt was wrong with the demo as it stands now; as he has in other posts in the thread prior to that anyway. Instead you defended georgetigra's attempt at a rebuttal of talking about something wholly irrelevant to the physics by adding on that Exorcet was potentially paid by Microsoft to post what he did.




I do feel that GT6 is the next generation sim, and I do feel that Forza games are simplistic, I use a steering wheel in GT and I own car, I know I am right because my experience tells me so.
I use a steering wheel and own a car too. That's how I know, for example, that in real life a car tends to have torque steer from a hard standing launch, while the GT6 demo has none.

I said that the overall physics package in Gran Turismo is the best I have ever seen. I don't care much about other sim games the way I do about Gran Turismo.
Combined with your other statements, this is just a smidgen away from "GT did it, so that must be how it actually is."
 
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It's the same physics engine no matter how you play. If you can do something, it's because the physics engine allows it. If the physics engine allows something wrong, the physics engine is wrong. The type of controller doesn't determine the behavior of the car. It only affects how your inputs are translated into the game.

If you equipped a real car with electric motors and levers to operate the controls and create a full-size R/C car (it's been done), and those electric motors could spin the steering wheel as quickly as Samus was doing with the Z in the video, the car would NOT react the way it did in his video. Not even close. That's the point -- the motions he was generating defy the laws of physics. They're wrong.

Even if you can't recreate that specific maneuver from the video, you should be concerned about it, because it has implications for all countersteer/oversteer situations, the ones that you can perform easily with a wheel. The game is lending you a helping hand; you just may not realize it.
Exactly. The control method does not change the physics (hopefully). It changes the input; so wheel or controller, judging the physics should be exactly the same. When the rear tires went from gripping to slipping, there didn't seem to be any consequence, even with the extreme angles and rapid transitions.
 
Tornado Don't get too agitated, it's not worth it. I am not a big fan of forums, no wonder in 8 years here I just got so few posts, many people on forums are not worth my time proving anything to them, I just go on playing Gran Turismo, I'm a gamer, not a forum debates lover, having no issues with my preferences so I don't need proving myself/others everytime what's a good game. I am just excited for GT6, although, I have criticized GT myself, I still love playing just it.
 
So does anyone else have any thoughts on this that doesn't involve a maniac driving on public roads?

I wonder if lower steering sensitivity would change it up, I think it would. Would be interesting to see how it reacts. Maybe the 7 setting in the sensitivity option breaks the physics
 
Wolfe
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Sorry, but that's far from the truth. The catch is the "far enough" part, because at some point you simply run out of steering lock, and if the car still has angular momentum left when you reach that point, it's going to keep rotating into a spin.

.

So what you're saying is that I'm wrong, but clearly right, or did you not actually read my post?

Even though I actually made the point that you have to be able to steer far enough, you seem to think that I overlooked that.

If you steer quickly enough you need never run out of lock either because you control the momentum of the transition, but with a wheel that can be difficult. Easier with a pad (wasn't that the point of the argument?).
 
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