Gran Turismo 6 general Physics Discussion(as well as video)

[MX5Racer69]

Great point, I too am a Miata racer, finished 3rd in the SCCA STL class this year (SFR region).

I do hope that the new GT 6 physics lessen the stability of breaking so we can rear wheel steer more predictably. Or I've yet to figure out the tuning enough.

Another detail that isn't cover on sims well is neutral throttle for traction. Or lift oversteer... These dynamics are the single largest reason the Nurburgring is so dangerous. My first time (in the rain) there I was instructed to do many things that weren't instinctual or intuitive. Many spots where simply lifting will throw you into a spin.

Great to meet you @Lawndart. You're doing things that I only wish I was doing. One of these days though. I keep trying to tell people ... you can race for real. There are classes of cars like the touring series that are within reason financially (to participate, not to win, lol).

Yeah, you bring up another good point ... throttle steering. When you have a neutrally balanced car and you are driving at the traction threshold, a little extra acceleration can create desired oversteer and a little less can bring her in. And with that you can do some amazing things. But here we get to the true artistry of what PD and iRacing are trying to accomplish. We are getting into the nuance, where real life physics combines with seat of the pants driving. I feel like someday someone will get it right. I just expect it to take a while.

I love the people in here talking as if they have personal experience driving cars like the 458 and the Ferrari Formula One. Good for a laugh.

This is why I don't get too excited to drive any of the super exotic cars. It's just a simulation, and I'll never know one way or the other if it's close to the real thing or not. I like driving the cars that I can either experience first hand (renting a Lotus Elise in Vegas) or that I hope to race for real someday (Miata).

One more thing ... a physics complaint about GT6, checkout this video:


One thing it appears that they haven't fixed with the suspension model is the feeling of motion inside the cockpit. The car should pitch forward under braking, backward under acceleration. It should lean left and right during cornering. I realize that this will be minimal in a car with a stiff suspension. But from that video, it doesn't move at all ... and that still feels a bit like an arcade game. Maybe in 7?

 

[CoolColJ]

Cars leaned in the GTA build - more normal type cars

 

[Johnnypenso]

One more thing ... a physics complaint about GT6, checkout this video:


One thing it appears that they haven't fixed with the suspension model is the feeling of motion inside the cockpit. The car should pitch forward under braking, backward under acceleration. It should lean left and right during cornering. I realize that this will be minimal in a car with a stiff suspension. But from that video, it doesn't move at all ... and that still feels a bit like an arcade game. Maybe in 7?

It's hard to see on an unfamiliar track with big elevation changes but the car actually pitches down under braking or so it appears to me.

 

[Kitten]

This is back in August. Lots change since then...

 

[CoolColJ]

Plenty of lean here....

 

[MX5Racer69]

Hmmm, ok. Perhaps I stand corrected. Good news is that we don't have to wait long to find out.

 

[CoolColJ]

lean should be apparent here - note this is probably a dev kit '"render" - far cleaner than the actual game IMO

370z at Silverstone

 

[super_gt]

The cornering speeds were appropriate with comfort softs, not anything above that. Give it a try, just like Ridox did with the 458 with good results.



In Gran Turismo have to do crazy things to make cars more real!Try F2010 with intermediate or rain tires on a dry track,lap times will be slow but grip is excellent!more wheel spin,happy tail.

 

[super_gt]

toe angle rear 0.20 at all standart cars in gt6????????????? come on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In real world is 0.00!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 0.20 angle make cars fake at high speed,makes them understeering in the fast corners!!!!!!!!!!fake fake fake fake fake fake fake fake fake fake fake fake fake fake I"m pissed 3 years for this delusion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[shirakawaa]

They still didn't fix default camber and toe values for all cars. Disappointing.

 

[Wolfe]

Well that doesn't bode well for the overall accuracy of Standard cars. I shouldn't have to tweak every car in the game to get them to drive correctly; it should drive like a stock example right out off the lot, and I should be able to slap some parts on and go without needing to adjust. "Crappy" default tuning settings are really annoying.

Most of the cars I like from GT5/GT6 are Standards. Suddenly I'm a bit less interested in GT6's physics improvements...

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

toe angle rear 0.20 at all standart cars in gt6????????????? come on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In real world is 0.00!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 0.20 angle make cars fake at high speed,makes them understeering in the fast corners!!!!!!!!!!fake fake fake fake fake fake fake fake fake fake fake fake fake fake I"m pissed 3 years for this delusion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't you know that most road cars have factory alignment of slight ( positive ) toe in at the rear to make them safer and stable at the highway speed, and usually neutral toe at the front.

I have so many replica in GT5, example : Dodge Viper SRT10 real life factory alignment was neutral toe at the front and a bit positive toe at the rear ( 0.20 degree ), the 1996 Dodge Viper Hennessey Venom 600 GTS had 0.10 degree front and 0.10 degree rear, and it's a tuner car - it only has 28 degree turning angle, which in GT5 all of the cars has default 40 degree I hope we can change turning angle in GT6, not locked to 40 degrees for all cars.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Don't you know that most road cars have factory alignment of slight ( positive ) toe in at the rear to make them safer and stable at the highway speed, and usually neutral toe at the front.

I have so many replica in GT5, example : Dodge Viper GTS real life factory alignment was neutral toe at the front and a bit positive toe at the rear.

I should have saved this for you, but I recall someone saying earlier today that the way ABS works has completely changed in GT6. You can now easily lock up the tires braking with ABS1 apparently so maybe they've completely tweaked the braking system.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I should have saved this for you, but I recall someone saying earlier today that the way ABS works has completely changed in GT6. You can now easily lock up the tires braking with ABS1 apparently so maybe they've completely tweaked the braking system.

I will have to test this myself when I got the game, as the one who have the game now and sharing don't seem to know much about tire, suspension and brake physics. I edited my post above

 

[shirakawaa]

I should have saved this for you, but I recall someone saying earlier today that the way ABS works has completely changed in GT6. You can now easily lock up the tires braking with ABS1 apparently so maybe they've completely tweaked the braking system.

It could easily be at ABS1 is now less permissive than before and the default, wrong, brake ratio of 5:5 has a detrimental effect even with the ABS enabled, as one would expect.

 

[Imari]

It could easily be at ABS1 is now less permissive than before and the default, wrong, brake ratio of 5:5 has a detrimental effect even with the ABS enabled, as one would expect.

I still don't understand why so many racing games default to a 50% brake bias instead of something moderately driveable, like say 60-65%. At least with forward brake biases you lock the brakes and understeer. No harm no foul, get off the brakes, run wide and keep driving. Rearward brake biases you're fighting to stay facing the right way when you lock up, and it makes trail braking a complete pain in the pants.

 

[CoolColJ]

Hitting curbs will flip your car now - kinda interesting is that I did the same thing in the GT6:A demo build and it wasn't that drastic.
Maybe the car bottomed out suspension



near the start I hop the same curb in the GT6:A demo build

 

[RCFProd]

lean should be apparent here - note this is probably a dev kit '"render" - far cleaner than the actual game IMO

370z at Silverstone

Nope, this is how the game actually looks without the HUD.

 

[panjandrum]

Better in motion, rear wheel lift on turn in

Oh well. Hate to bring on the negative, but that's a rear-engined car... That motion is completely inaccurate for a rear engined car. The front wheel may lift, but unless the entire side of the car is lifted the rear isn't going to lift alone. (I autocross 3 different rear-engined cars, we see front-wheel lift all the time, so this is something I'm very familiar with. You can also see this in Porsche track videos on youtube if you watch carefully. Not unusual to watch a front wheel hang in the air for seconds at a time around fast sweepers...). Additionally, I'm 99% sure that the Alpine, like many older cars, had a rear swing-axle. This means that the rear wheels travel vertically in a significant arc, not basically straight up and down. That wheel should be dropping down much further and reducing the contact patch to the outside edge as that occurs... So there is definitely something wrong here. The only way I can think of that the video may be accurate would be if the rear axle was artificially limited in motion so that it can't tuck. In my '68 beetle I use dune-buggy "limiter straps" to prevent more than a very slight amount of wheel-tuck, but somehow I very much doubt PD has a "limiter strap" suspension upgrade option...

So this video, unfortunately, demonstrates exactly the opposite of what we would hope to see In terms of GT6 Physics.

 

[super_gt]

Okey, no need to argue, I have good communication with Cobra, that video was just showing how everything goes with flooring pedal, still it stays on hand due good communication between me and car and I pushed it on limits what ends to big slides, as I wanted(closing to that bite situation, but still stays in hand even with few bad tail snaps).
That Cobra really tells what is happening next, there are no unpredictable behavior on that car, it says what it wants.
Body weight/roll changes and rear wheel liftoffs are all normal things on that car, playing with those is 100% fun.

Here's a nice onboard video with Cobra on the limit.

 

[OdeFinn]

Here's a nice onboard video with Cobra on the limit.

And that was "only" 289 not 427

 

[CoolColJ]

Those guys building the Hudson are playing GT6
http://playstation.gt6firstlove.com/chapter-2/
Some good discussion on physics and GT6 engine

And the guy who has driven the Quattro group B in real life said the GT6 version handles the same way

 

[CoolColJ]

Willow Springs - man I love this track, physics feel real good here. Feels like driving on a country road

Check out the off road and suspension physics!

 

[Fartybumbum]

After a couple dozen laps of Mount Panorama, you can definitely feel the tires and suspension a lot more. It's especially noticeable in the road cars, they actually have some feel to them even at low suburban road speeds. Also, driving in 100% surface water on slicks is insanely difficult! Even gentle feathering the throttle in first and second gear in the M3 GT3 car I was sliding all over the place at every corner, and when i tried giving it some more speed down Conrod I felt as though I was about to aquaplane at any second, and of course all hell broke loose in the chase haha.

The lack of visual representation of water on the track is still really off putting though... when it looks almost completely dry it's hard to switch into the careful wet weather driving mindset

Still had a jolly good time though Now to try some other tracks!

 

[CoolColJ]

The tyres definitely have more bite, even compared to the Academy demo
Much more progressive - no more driving on ice feel so far

I took the X-Bow for a spin/race, and you can feel the rear end tugging around in a very controllable way

Hand brake turns feel sublime, you can feel the tyres grip sliding

Also the Honda Fit can even oversteer in certain corners with power - certainly a first for a GT game.
I just don't feel that terminal understeer of GT games of past even in FF cars

Rotating cars under brakes is achievable.

Only thing is transmission modelling and engine braking is far too weak IMO.

 

[masonite]

Oh well. Hate to bring on the negative, but that's a rear-engined car... That motion is completely inaccurate for a rear engined car. The front wheel may lift, but unless the entire side of the car is lifted the rear isn't going to lift alone.

I'm not convinced... Lifting a wheel can happen where there's enough weight transfer to allow it to, the rules of physics don't prohibit any particular layout, only that a rear biased weight distribution would make it difficult. The alpine A110 was set up for rally, so I wouldn't be surprised if it had a rather soft set up that allowed a lot of weight transfer, and thus cocking a rear wheel slightly.



^granted, that's a kart with no droop, but the physics are there.

And another example - front engined, front weight biased car lifting a front wheel on corner exit. Same laws of physics that make it difficult for the alpine cocking a rear going into a corner should make this difficult... but it does it with ease.

I'm 99% sure that the Alpine, like many older cars, had a rear swing-axle.

Later A110's had double A arms all round, not sure when the changeover happened though. In fairness, I doubt the GT6 suspension model is able to take into account the full range of motion of a swing arm system anyway, have to see the 2CV in action to verify though.

 

[santiagomo87]

Any word on gravel and snow physics with the new suspension and tyre model?

 

[super_gt]

Braking in GT6 is ''extremely realistic''.
To lock up rear tires before front tires on my Toyota GT86 I had to make brake balance front-0 rear-10 this makes braking in GT6 arcade!
Now everybody can brake in the middle of the corner without consequences.

 

[TorqueHappenS08]

How are the physics in comparison to GT5 and GTA build

 

[CoolColJ]

How are the physics in comparison to GT5 and GTA build

I haven't done mega amounts of testing, or driven many cars yet, but that driving on ice feeling in GT5 when you start to slide/power oversteer is no longer there and to a lesser extent the GTA demo ( which had it a bit)
There is more of a textured grippy slide - especially when you pull the handbrake etc

It feels different from the GTA demo even. Much more inbetween stuff in the transitions etc.
Even FF cars will sometimes tighten into the turn, on powering out of a turn, instead of washing wide - the tail swinging more outwards etc.

Tyre model and suspension has improved a lot - the transmission side of things not so much
The tyre noise provides more feedback as well, not just the same constant screech, there are gradual variations and skipped sounds