Gran Turismo 6 general Physics Discussion(as well as video)

[Johnnypenso]

Rear left wheel touched the grass,no one can catch it.

I do not like how people complain about oversteer,this slows GT physics progress.

I don't like the price of t-bone steaks but complaining about it constantly on every thread I enter isn't going to change the price of t-bone steaks. If you add something constructive to the conversation instead of cryptic videos and posts, you might get some dialogue going.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Assetto Corsa feels more like the GT6 Academy demo, but with more nuance, and less hand holding as far as pure physics go.

I hope it's better, since the general consensus about the GTA demo was a Frankensteining of GT5's lame-duck tire model with GT6's improved suspension modeling.

In iRacing once your on the grass, you spin a like top from a dead stop even with a whiff, it feels unnatural.

I've yet to find a single game deal with grass very realistically; it seems like pretty hard work, unsurprisingly.

AC has much more solidty and heft and progression to the feel. When the car slides, it feels more "bitey"
Much more grip and texture all round.

That's encouraging... for AC. When I tried the JFF GT6 build, it certainly felt different from the GTA demo, but countersteering still did not feel natural.

I do not like how people complain about oversteer,this slows GT physics progress.

No, it doesn't. If there's more oversteer than there should be in the real life equivalent of an event, then its not realistic. Just because you prefer cars with much grippier tires on the front end than back in GT5 doesn't make it more realistic.

 

[super_gt]

No, it doesn't. If there's more oversteer than there should be in the real life equivalent of an event, then its not realistic. Just because you prefer cars with much grippier tires on the front end than back in GT5 doesn't make it more realistic.[/quote]
I would never do my car to oversteer unnecessarily because this will make me slow.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Ah, so it's like GT5 then. Shouldn't be too hard to pick up... if only my PC would play it :-/

GT5 is quite different to iRacing. GT5 is on rails compared to it as it is quite hard to lose control of car and spin even on grass but I think that is due to the way the tyres work in the game. From what I've experienced of GT6, the trait remains of Gran Turismo games.

 

[CoolColJ]

When you shift gears mid turn in Assetto Corsa, the cars gets easily unbalanced.
That's something GT is missing right now, shift shocks etc
Engine braking is just not brutal enough

Tyres and suspension might be modelled OK, but transmission stuff maybe not so

 

[MrWednesday]

GT5 is quite different to iRacing. GT5 is on rails compared to it as it is quite hard to lose control of car and spin even on grass but I think that is due to the way the tyres work in the game. From what I've experienced of GT6, the trait remains of Gran Turismo games.

In GT5 single player, I agree, but online, I've had some really bad spins by dropping a wheel off track.

 

[sk8er913]

In GT5 single player, I agree, but online, I've had some really bad spins by dropping a wheel off track.

In my 550 PP M3 GTR I got a wheel in the grass at nurburgring 2 turns after the carosel and did a 1440 degree spin. lol

 

[Mr P510]

GT5 is not even in the same league as iRacing as far as everything physics.
IMO.

 

[Snake1405]

Maybe the vision of Kaz about physics now will be complete with this new engine.

 

[tinram]

GT5 is not even in the same league as iRacing as far as everything physics.
IMO.

With its monthly dues, it better be.

 

[Ghoa$t]

Flooring the throttle and burning up the tires is the fastest way to accelerate in GT5, hopefully this is addressed in GT6. The GT6 demo wasn't much of a step up from GT5, sliding/drifting through corners to get the car rotated was still the fastest way around the track, with no penalty for upsetting the balance of the car. Slow in fast out, and smooth throttle application got you no where near the top of the leaderboard. It annoys me that PD overlooks things like this in favor or racing helmets, suits and paint chips.

And yeah... iRacing is in a totally different league to GT as far as physics go.

 

[OdeFinn]

@Ghoa$t; Try Cobra on GT5, even on practice mode with 0abs fully stock, nice soapbox and flooring pedal isn't a solution to do anything
(playing with it: Cobra fun)

 

[Scaff]

@Ghoa$t; Try Cobra on GT5, even on practice mode with 0abs fully stock, nice soapbox and flooring pedal isn't a solution to do anything
(playing with it: Cobra fun)

At which point the limitations of GT5s tyre and suspension physics show through. The Cobra doesn't behave anything like it should in reality (and I've been in a few).

 

[OdeFinn]

At which point the limitations of GT5s tyre and suspension physics show through. The Cobra doesn't behave anything like it should in reality (and I've been in a few).

That was part of "no tyre Wear", and answering to that no flooring to pedals(aggressive driving, never good, but fun as on video). Same track same car and tyre wear activated it starts to go like real physics should allowed, behavior of it feels totally different, really close to real.

 

[MX5Racer69]

I do not like how people complain about oversteer,this slows GT physics progress.

No, comments like this harm the progress of GT physics. iRacing is not the standard GT physics should attempt to follow. The standard that GT should attempt to follow is real life physics. And I'm comparing the handling characteristics of my real life Miata with both games. And GT does a better job. If you don't believe me, go out to a track and rent a Spec Miata. Let me know how much it slides around every single corner on NT01's. Then get back to us with an actual physics observation.

Now, it's important to note, just because a Miata feels more realistic in GT5, that doesn't mean every car will feel more realistic. I'm only comparing one car, a momentum car with exceptional cornering ability.

 

[super_gt]

No, comments like this harm the progress of GT physics. iRacing is not the standard GT physics should attempt to follow. The standard that GT should attempt to follow is real life physics. And I'm comparing the handling characteristics of my real life Miata with both games. And GT does a better job. If you don't believe me, go out to a track and rent a Spec Miata. Let me know how much it slides around every single corner on NT01's. Then get back to us with an actual physics observation.

Now, it's important to note, just because a Miata feels more realistic in GT5, that doesn't mean every car will feel more realistic. I'm only comparing one car, a momentum car with exceptional cornering ability.

Did Mazda Miata can oversteer in GT5 at all?

 

[Scaff]

That was part of "no tyre Wear", and answering to that no flooring to pedals(aggressive driving, never good, but fun as on video). Same track same car and tyre wear activated it starts to go like real physics should allowed, behavior of it feels totally different, really close to real.

Tyre wear activated does not make it behave close to real by any stretch.

The Cobra is a car that under the limit is communicative and tactile, over the limit it will bite and bite hard. GT5 fails to get even close to the behaviour up to the limit, mainly because of its lack of tyre deformation.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Did Mazda Miata can oversteer in GT5 at all?

As I've said before I don't know what car/tire combinations you are running, but it's not hard to get just about every FR, MR and RR in the game to oversteer with no tuning and stock settings on factory rubber. Not oversteer where you are in danger of spinning out every corner, but the kind of progressive oversteer you might actually experience in a real car on a real track.

Not to say it's perfect, the tire and suspension model needs work but it's heading in the right direction. It sounds to me with your endless posts about oversteer you're looking more for an arcade type of driving experience.

 

[super_gt]

Much better handling than in GT5.

As I've said before I don't know what car/tire combinations you are running, but it's not hard to get just about every FR, MR and RR in the game to oversteer with no tuning and stock settings on factory rubber. Not oversteer where you are in danger of spinning out every corner, but the kind of progressive oversteer you might actually experience in a real car on a real track.

Not to say it's perfect, the tire and suspension model needs work but it's heading in the right direction. It sounds to me with your endless posts about oversteer you're looking more for an arcade type of driving experience.

Only if you brake in the middle of the corner.

 

[LeadFootLiam]

Much better handling than in GT5.

They should be wearing helmets.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Only if you brake in the middle of the corner.

For you maybe, but I can get most every FR, MR or RR in the game to oversteer on entry with the right combinations of steering/brake/throttle on entry.

 

[LeadFootLiam]

For you maybe, but I can get most every FR, MR or RR in the game to oversteer on entry with the right combinations of steering/brake/throttle on entry.

Scandinavian flick!

 

[super_gt]

For you maybe, but I can get most every FR, MR or RR in the game to oversteer on entry with the right combinations of steering/brake/throttle on entry.

Did cars in GT5 have Lift-off oversteer?

 

[Johnnypenso]

Did cars in GT5 have Lift-off oversteer?

I didn't say the physics were perfect, far from it, just responding to your claim that everything understeers in GT5, which is absolutely not the case, not even close to it. If you can't get a great many cars in GT5 to oversteer without tuning, let alone with tuning, it's on you, not the game.

I didn't say the physics were perfect, far from it, just responding to your claim that everything understeers in GT5, which is absolutely not the case, not even close to it. If you can't get a great many cars in GT5 to oversteer without tuning, let alone with tuning, it's on you, not the game.

Scandinavian flick!

Absolutely. On the really stubborn cars a little weight shift to the inside then back to the outside works wonders for inducing oversteer.

 

[Lawndart]

I'm just going to point this out... The key to computational physics and visceral feel in sims is in tire modeling, all other physics are relatively simple. Tire physics are what is going to change sims but nearly every game has it wrong and iRacing is actually one of the worst... Because they are trying to hard to be "real".

Let's start with the fact that real world physics and computational physics are not compatible. Making computational physics very difficult replicate real world without going outside of the box.

You see, in sims they start with a simple real world translation of physics resulting in a linear "digressive" model (with tires). On paper its good, actual application is wrong because when tires "do what they do" a whole bunch of factors fudge linear physics (computational).

So how do you fix it? And I did say "almost" every sim. The ones that get it right are flipping the math of a digressive model to a "progressive" model once the tire reaches a threshold. This threshold then takes into account deceleration, lateral tire rotation, etc. then you can start recalculating the math in a way to return to grip, not simply glazing the tires, then things start to feel more real. Things like snap oversteer, riding the peak slip angle, and manipulating those dynamics all become possible. Games are about being convincing, not real... This is a great case in point that you sometimes need to break stuff to make stuff work...

I'm not a physics guy so sorry if this explanation is worded oddly but I am a developer and have dealt with many physics models and ran a team back in the 90s that did the first proper CFD modeling on a personal computer (sgi computers were too expensive) for games and is likely identical to the model PD is using as CFD has very defined variables... It's about choosing the right ones and dismissing the others.

BUT! I didn't plan to type that... I just wanted to know if anyone else noticed the TGS videos (all good drivers!) and how the tire meter seems to have an orange color that stays orange much longer than simply red back to blue. There appears to be a longer more persistent result to cooking your tires...

 

[Mr P510]

Very good post Lawndart.
Can't remember exactly were I read it but apparently a few of the latest sims..(rFactor2,Asseto Corsa) have another equation factored into their sim.
Transmission flex. This is suppose to help with mid corner and on-off throttle feel.If they can implement this right it could be a step forward in chasing that "natural" feel.

Hopefully GT7 will lean more towards hardcore sim physics and include this kind of development.

 

[MX5Racer69]

I just wanted to know if anyone else noticed the TGS videos (all good drivers!) and how the tire meter seems to have an orange color that stays orange much longer than simply red back to blue. There appears to be a longer more persistent result to cooking your tires...

Great stuff. And you bring up a an area where I do believe that GT physics can improve. Looking at the fast GTA videos, you should not be faster when you drift the car into corners. As anyone who races knows, there is a maximum slip angle that provides the greatest traction. Once you've exceeded the friction limit of the tire (i.e. sliding the car into the turn), then at that point, all you can do is try to bring the car back within the friction limit. This means decreasing the force vectors on the tire. And the only way you can do that is, if you're braking, brake less or if you're on the gas, accelerate less. This would almost always cost you time in the corner. The game needs to accurately model that, imho.

 

[Lawndart]

Great stuff. And you bring up a an area where I do believe that GT physics can improve. Looking at the fast GTA videos, you should not be faster when you drift the car into corners. As anyone who races knows, there is a maximum slip angle that provides the greatest traction. Once you've exceeded the friction limit of the tire (i.e. sliding the car into the turn), then at that point, all you can do is try to bring the car back within the friction limit. This means decreasing the force vectors on the tire. And the only way you can do that is, if you're braking, brake less or if you're on the gas, accelerate less. This would almost always cost you time in the corner. The game needs to accurately model that, imho.

Great point, I too am a Miata racer, finished 3rd in the SCCA STL class this year (SFR region).

I do hope that the new GT 6 physics lessen the stability of breaking so we can rear wheel steer more predictably. Or I've yet to figure out the tuning enough.

Another detail that isn't cover on sims well is neutral throttle for traction. Or lift oversteer... These dynamics are the single largest reason the Nurburgring is so dangerous. My first time (in the rain) there I was instructed to do many things that weren't instinctual or intuitive. Many spots where simply lifting will throw you into a spin.

 

[OdeFinn]

Tyre wear activated does not make it behave close to real by any stretch.

The Cobra is a car that under the limit is communicative and tactile, over the limit it will bite and bite hard. GT5 fails to get even close to the behaviour up to the limit, mainly because of its lack of tyre deformation.

Okey, no need to argue, I have good communication with Cobra, that video was just showing how everything goes with flooring pedal, still it stays on hand due good communication between me and car and I pushed it on limits what ends to big slides, as I wanted(closing to that bite situation, but still stays in hand even with few bad tail snaps).
That Cobra really tells what is happening next, there are no unpredictable behavior on that car, it says what it wants.
Body weight/roll changes and rear wheel liftoffs are all normal things on that car, playing with those is 100% fun.

 

[fabio93bg]

no one that could play this demo can explain how it feels? possibly someone who played it whitout TC and stability control!!! this would be usefull for all of us