Gran Turismo 7 Daytona Speedway Gameplay Revealed

  • Thread starter Famine
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I've accepted at this point that PD just aren't giving us better AI no matter how much people keep bringing it up or harassing the Social media channels (the latter of which is not even remotely constructive or any more effective). Just seems like at this point it solely exists just to meet the bare minimum. As much as I want to say "Name one developer that has ever advertised their game with the Hardest AI difficulty setting in a trailer" (which to be fair, I don't remember seeing one myself even in anything recent), its a miracle to expect ANY real big changes.
 
Well it looked graphically very nice but everything else, not seeing much difference over GTS.

With regards to the AI I'm getting GT6 "it's placeholder" vibes from some people again. They've shown us the AI several times now, each time it has looked bad. Average at best.

What is the most likely reason? That they're only beginner AI and PD are hiding the really good stuff for later? No, the simplest explanation is sadly usually the correct one. The AI still just aren't very good.
This. The penalty system debacle also indicates that AI simply isn’t PDs strong suit. Never has been.

I’m not getting my hopes up for the new game other than expecting dynamic weather and graphical and load time improvements thanks to PS5 power.

It’s was clear the next game was going to be more evolution than revolution when they announced a ps4 version also, imho. I get it, Sony wants to make money. We are to jump on the hype train. Get your pre orders in and all that.
 
Nothing in this video blows me away or makes me shout "hooray!", but it's good to see that some small improvements have been made. Different liveries, better lighting, more noise and more camera movement. I wasn't expecting anything major and that's exactly what I got. Doesn't reduce my excitement though.
 
Haven't seen anyone comment on the oil pressure changing on the steering wheel dash. Does that happen also in GTS? 🤔

Looks beautiful though, was hoping to see some more new Gr.3 additions then just the Ford GT we already knew about. But, footage is footage, keep it coming PD 🤩
I don’t remember ever seeing oil pressure change in GT Sport so if Gt7 has a engine physics this could be a big game changer for when doing long-distance racing. Over using the high powered fuel mapmakers engine to overheat and cause damage and loss of power which makes you have less performance,

One thing is is that if all these little features how is the CPU in the PS4 not going to melt
 
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I've accepted at this point that PD just aren't giving us better AI no matter how much people keep bringing it up or harassing the Social media channels (the latter of which is not even remotely constructive or any more effective). Just seems like at this point it solely exists just to meet the bare minimum. As much as I want to say "Name one developer that has ever advertised their game with the Hardest AI difficulty setting in a trailer" (which to be fair, I don't remember seeing one myself even in anything recent), its a miracle to expect ANY real big changes.
I’m starting to come to that conclusion myself
 
Haven't seen anyone comment on the oil pressure changing on the steering wheel dash. Does that happen also in GTS? 🤔

Looks beautiful though, was hoping to see some more new Gr.3 additions then just the Ford GT we already knew about. But, footage is footage, keep it coming PD 🤩
Well players are supposed to change oil and restore the engine of their cars so i guess this is PD's way of showing it in a visual manner
 
The track looks great, and I'm pleased to see that the track surface looks to have a good amount of texture to it. There's bumps and angles and camber in what looks to be the right places, and it really gives the track some character.

Motion blur is nice for those that want it, but I hope it's an option that can be switched off also. I prefer a clear view over cinematic correctness.

AI is still very disappointing, they move fine but they're so slow. If Polyphony doesn't give a difficulty slider for AI speed then this is going to be a real problem for anyone who doesn't lick windows.
Am I the only one that feels like the AI seen in the Deep Forest video, is different in what we see here? It looks like they were way faster, and more competitive at Deep Forest.
Nah, I think they just looked faster because the driver of the camera car at Deep Forest was taking it pretty easy. This one's not as bad, but they're still not pushing at all hard and they managed to overtake 7 cars in one lap.

The AI in both clips would get swamped by an average player actually trying.
 
I really don't want to be that guy but i will. Im pleased Daytoma is back and the game looks fantastic but thats about it. The new liveries were probably made for this trailer only and im not sure about the return of full screen replays out of the box, because thats something we can do in GTS via keyboard. Sadly the AI seems like "Normal" , the FOV still seems problematic and no improvements on car sounds.
Anyone that says the sounds haven't improved need to get their hearing checked. Shifting sounds, wind, tire noise, all improved.
 
Anyone that says the sounds haven't improved need to get their hearing checked. Shifting sounds, wind, tire noise, all improved.
Maybe the sounds have a slight improvement, for GT standards but that isn't saying much. The shifting sounds? They are so obnoxious it's border line comical. Hopefully you can turn them down. Never have I heard such a loud clunk like that, especially from the outside track cameras. Wind noise? OK, wind noise. Tire noise to me still seemed like the same noise, just lowered in volume and not triggered as much as every simple turn which was ridiculous in GT Sport.
Here's what a real RSR sounds like. Search for many more GT3 onboards to if you want to discern how a shifting sound should be inside the car.
 
Judging by the liveries, I sure hope these are default liveries you can select from in the car's default color selection. I'm sure Polyphony would add the most popular liveries that these cars raced with, whether they are factory liveries, or those from other such racing series like IMSA, Blancpain, FIA WEC, Nurburgring 24h, International GT Open, Super GT GT300 and more, perhaps even Polyphony-designed original liveries too.

Anyway, here are the liveries most of the cars are based on:

Real liveries:
Aston Martin V12 Vantage GT3 '12 - #7 Aston Martin Racing - actually #007 (2014, Nurburgring 24h)
BMW M6 GT3 Sprint Model '16 - #1 BMW Motorsport (2019, New factory livery)
Ford GT Race Car '18 - #67 Ford Chip Ganassi Team (2018, IMSA)
Honda NSX Gr. 3 - #30 Castrol Honda Racing - 24 Hours of Spa (2018, Blancpain)
Lamborghini Huracan GT3 '15 - #63 Emil Frey Racing (2020, International GT Open)
Lexus RC F GT3 '17 - #14 AIM Vasser Sullivan - 12 Hours of Sebring (2019, IMSA)
Mercedes-AMG GT3 '16 - #4 Black Falcon (2019, Blancpain)
Porsche 911 RSR (991) '17 - #92 Porsche GT Team - 24 Hours of Le Mans (2019, FIA WEC)

Original liveries:
Alfa Romeo 4C Gr. 3 - Livery inspired by Alfa Romeo 155 2.5 V6 TI '93
Dodge Viper SRT GT3-R '15 - Livery inspired by Dodge Viper GTS-R Race Car '14
Jaguar F-type Gr. 3 - Purple version of original livery
Subaru WRX Gr. 3 - Livery inspired by either the Nurburgring 24h version or BRZ GT300 cars
Toyota GR Supra Racing Concept '18 - Livery inspired by Toyota GR010 Hybrid
 
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I've accepted at this point that PD just aren't giving us better AI no matter how much people keep bringing it up or harassing the Social media channels (the latter of which is not even remotely constructive or any more effective). Just seems like at this point it solely exists just to meet the bare minimum. As much as I want to say "Name one developer that has ever advertised their game with the Hardest AI difficulty setting in a trailer" (which to be fair, I don't remember seeing one myself even in anything recent), its a miracle to expect ANY real big changes.
Gonna share some experience here.

I play a lot of Assetto Corsa, and one day I felt like doing some short-track racing in it just to see how things went. Lo and behold, in the deepest, darkest corners of the Internet, I found an oval - Joesville Speedway from rFactor 2. Brilliant little track; a little bit like a shorter version of New Smyrna Speedway, and the conversion seemed mostly fine... until I raced against the AI. They were absolutely blind and never ever tried to pass. So I fired up AI Line Helper to both record a faster line (they were quite slow as well) and to set some new track boundaries (turned out that the AI thought the track was literally one car width, hence the blindness). For the line, I chose a Legends car - small, easy to set a decent line in, and the type of car you might actually find at a Saturday night short track like Joesville.

The AI worked perfectly with the Legends car. They were fast, clean, and a real challenge both to catch and defend against. Only one problem: that line that worked with the Legends? Yeah, it sucked for the late models I also had. They were far slower than they could have been because the line I set for the Legends was designed specifically for that type of car, meaning the AI was way too easy to be a challenge in anything else. And the opposite was true with the roles reversed: a line built for late models meant that the AI couldn't take full advantage of the Legends' unique abilities. That meant that the only real alternative is to try to come up with a middle-of-the-road line where the AI isn't particularly fast in either car but also isn't particularly slow.

Now, that example covers just two cars and one track. When you also figure in hundreds of other cars and the fact that GT is a game played by literal millions of all skill levels, you begin to understand why GT's AI is so slow - all the lines at the tracks have to work with a vast selection of cars, and the AI has to be quick enough to give a casual player a challenge without destroying them and frustrating them to the point that they stop playing.

Are there better approaches to this problem? Absolutely. FM's AI isn't particularly good, but it is a bit better than GT's and doesn't usually fall victim to the same tedious chase-the-rabbit races as GT does. But now that I have experience creating AI lines, I can see where the problem lies when deciding what the AI should do at a particular track. And the only other method I can think of - creating a separate line with different braking and acceleration hints for every single car on every single variation of every single track - isn't an option either given how much extra data that would be, how much of a pain it would make it to update the game, and how much work it would be. So, again, there are better ways to handle the AI, but you really begin to see where PD is coming from with such slow opponents. They and other racing game devs really are between a rock and a hard place when it comes to this stuff.
 
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Gonna share some experience here.

I play a lot of Assetto Corsa, and one day I felt like doing some short-track racing in it just to see how things went. Lo and behold, in the deepest, darkest corners of the Internet, I found an oval - Joesville Speedway from rFactor 2. Brilliant little track; a little bit like a shorter version of New Smyrna Speedway, and the conversion seemed mostly fine... until I raced against the AI. They were absolutely blind and never ever tried to pass. So I fired up AI Line Helper to both record a faster line (they were quite slow as well) and to set some new track boundaries (turned out that the AI thought the track was literally one car width, hence the blindness). For the line, I chose a Legends car - small, easy to set a decent line in, and the type of car you might actually find at a Saturday night short track like Joesville.

The AI worked perfectly with the Legends car. They were fast, clean, and a real challenge both to catch and defend against. Only one problem: that line that worked with the Legends? Yeah, it sucked for the late models I also had. They were far slower than they could have been because the line I set for the Legends was designed specifically for that type of car, meaning the AI was way too easy to be a challenge in anything else. And the opposite was true with the roles reversed: a line built for late models meant that the AI couldn't take full advantage of the Legends' unique abilities. That meant that the only real alternative is to try to come up with a middle-of-the-road line where the AI isn't particularly fast in either car but also isn't particularly slow.

Now, that example covers just two cars and one track. When you also figure in hundreds of other cars and the fact that GT is a game played by literal millions of all skill levels, you begin to understand why GT's AI is so slow - all the lines at the tracks have to work with a vast selection of cars, and the AI has to be quick enough to give a casual player a challenge without destroying them and frustrating them to the point that they stop playing.

Are there better approaches to this problem? Absolutely. FM's AI isn't particularly good, but it is a bit better than GT's and doesn't usually fall victim to the same tedious chase-the-rabbit races as GT does. But now that I have experience creating AI lines, I can see where the problem lies when deciding what the AI should do at a particular track. And the only other method I can think of - creating a separate line with different braking and acceleration hints for every single car on every single variation of every single track - isn't an option either given how much extra data that would be, how much of a pain it would make it to update the game, and how much work it would be. So, again, there are better ways to handle the AI, but you really begin to see where PD is coming from with such slow opponents. They and other racing game devs really are between a rock and a hard place when it comes to this stuff.
Thanks for the insight into racing lines within a games framework. It really does help for someone like me who has no experience setting these things up to now understand how complicated it is to design and cater for.

Also as a consumer, it’s still super disappointing. The main focus of GT7 is its single player campaign and our push through the ranks of the campaign will be determined a lot by the AI’s behaviour.

I’m not saying PD hasn’t tried, they’ve probably just tried in different areas like atmospheric simulation and ray tracing in replays and scapes.

You got to remember they carried over the vast majority of GT Sports content and have expanded on that for GT7. A lot of the leg work was already done in 2017-18 and they did postpone GT7’s release by a whole year.

I’m just concerned as to what’s been done in the past few years to warrant a new Gran Turismo game?

Unfortunately, I’m part of the problem as I will still buy this game and take enjoyment away from it.

Honestly, seeing how GT7 has unfolded so far makes me anticipate Forza Motorsport even more.

I’m keenly anticipating any new information to prove me wrong but I don’t foresee that happening..
 
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Maybe the sounds have a slight improvement, for GT standards but that isn't saying much. The shifting sounds? They are so obnoxious it's border line comical. Hopefully you can turn them down. Never have I heard such a loud clunk like that, especially from the outside track cameras. Wind noise? OK, wind noise. Tire noise to me still seemed like the same noise, just lowered in volume and not triggered as much as every simple turn which was ridiculous in GT Sport.
Here's what a real RSR sounds like. Search for many more GT3 onboards to if you want to discern how a shifting sound should be inside the car.

There is improvement. And saying they're isn't is downright hysterical. Ever played iRacing? Shift sounds are very similar.
 
I mean...yeah, it's a game, and the point is to see things, but windows are almost never this clear in real life. They get dirty fast, they change color of the things you see, make everything a little washed out, and they are much more reflective! Also, this FOV is dissapointing. Again and again PD keeps doing everything they can to take away the sense of speed in the game. 200+ km/h feels like 40km/h in the neighbourhood...
 
Hunh, it could be me but the AI looked less rammy and less belligerent than in GT Sport when I watched the video.

Also I wouldn't be surprised if they were playing Easy Mode. That's usually how it rolls when I play GT Sport's Arcade Mode on Easy... except this time the A.I. seems like they are somewhat more respectful of the players/each other.

I guess we'll have to wait until the real game releases to see the real progress.
 
There is improvement. And saying they're isn't is downright hysterical. Ever played iRacing? Shift sounds are very similar.
Downright hysterical? Well I'm glad you're getting a kick out of it. lol
Yes I've used iRacing before. And I just spent 2 1/2 hours tonight both on rF2 and AMS2. Not sure what that matters. If GT7 looks and more importantly sounds like everything you've wanted and then some, then that's great.
 
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I'm a simple men.
takemymoney.jpeg
 
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And the only other method I can think of - creating a separate line with different braking and acceleration hints for every single car on every single variation of every single track - isn't an option either given how much extra data that would be, how much of a pain it would make it to update the game, and how much work it would be.
Seems like you're ignoring how FM solved that problem - Drivatars.



It's far from a new idea and Polyphony would presumably have plenty of data from player laps in GTS had they chosen to collect it. It seems unlikely that they've done so, despite it being one of the best and most obvious ways to deal with what is a relatively difficult problem to deal with at this scale by traditional hand crafted behavioural structures.

As you say, it's a lot of work to do well for all these cars and tracks, so the sensible thing is just to have the players and the computer do the work for you. Work smarter, not harder. Solutions to these problems exist, Polyphony just still seems averse to using them.

I still think it's intentional - they don't want faster AI, and they don't want AI that the player can choose to change the difficulty. That's their design, and they're sticking with it. I think it's objectively bad design, but it's their game and their choice to make.
 
Seems like you're ignoring how FM solved that problem - Drivatars.



It's far from a new idea and Polyphony would presumably have plenty of data from player laps in GTS had they chosen to collect it. It seems unlikely that they've done so, despite it being one of the best and most obvious ways to deal with what is a relatively difficult problem to deal with at this scale by traditional hand crafted behavioural structures.

As you say, it's a lot of work to do well for all these cars and tracks, so the sensible thing is just to have the players and the computer do the work for you. Work smarter, not harder. Solutions to these problems exist, Polyphony just still seems averse to using them.

I still think it's intentional - they don't want faster AI, and they don't want AI that the player can choose to change the difficulty. That's their design, and they're sticking with it. I think it's objectively bad design, but it's their game and their choice to make.

There was an article somewhere that PD was looking into improving their AI with deep learning but I understood that this improvement or data wasn’t being used for GT7 just yet, if at all.

Perhaps GT8 will be the next-gen GT the majority of us wanted.
 
Wow those clouds are just stunning, i wonder if thats just a skybox or actual voumetric ones because if its the latter thats one of the best looking virtual clouds ive ever seen (better than flight sim 2020 clouds anyway in its current pixelated state)
 
It’s as if PD limit the options available so they can say, “Oh, players just play this way.” I’m not sure how much data they can gather from us solo players in Custom Race, when the custom race options are limited. There’s no proper multi-class because where has the multi-class been? Only in a mission.
Even though I restarted GTS in triple figures, I didn’t go back to Mission Stage 6/8 over and over to have a multi-class race. Plus, the All Japan Championship, as fun as it was, I couldn’t choose to race in the Gr.3 class(wasn’t fun trying to pretend in Custom Race either).
I mean, Kaz has raced in real world multi-class scenarios and decides to tease the option.
 
Gonna share some experience here.

I play a lot of Assetto Corsa, and one day I felt like doing some short-track racing in it just to see how things went. Lo and behold, in the deepest, darkest corners of the Internet, I found an oval - Joesville Speedway from rFactor 2. Brilliant little track; a little bit like a shorter version of New Smyrna Speedway, and the conversion seemed mostly fine... until I raced against the AI. They were absolutely blind and never ever tried to pass. So I fired up AI Line Helper to both record a faster line (they were quite slow as well) and to set some new track boundaries (turned out that the AI thought the track was literally one car width, hence the blindness). For the line, I chose a Legends car - small, easy to set a decent line in, and the type of car you might actually find at a Saturday night short track like Joesville.

The AI worked perfectly with the Legends car. They were fast, clean, and a real challenge both to catch and defend against. Only one problem: that line that worked with the Legends? Yeah, it sucked for the late models I also had. They were far slower than they could have been because the line I set for the Legends was designed specifically for that type of car, meaning the AI was way too easy to be a challenge in anything else. And the opposite was true with the roles reversed: a line built for late models meant that the AI couldn't take full advantage of the Legends' unique abilities. That meant that the only real alternative is to try to come up with a middle-of-the-road line where the AI isn't particularly fast in either car but also isn't particularly slow.

Now, that example covers just two cars and one track. When you also figure in hundreds of other cars and the fact that GT is a game played by literal millions of all skill levels, you begin to understand why GT's AI is so slow - all the lines at the tracks have to work with a vast selection of cars, and the AI has to be quick enough to give a casual player a challenge without destroying them and frustrating them to the point that they stop playing.

Are there better approaches to this problem? Absolutely. FM's AI isn't particularly good, but it is a bit better than GT's and doesn't usually fall victim to the same tedious chase-the-rabbit races as GT does. But now that I have experience creating AI lines, I can see where the problem lies when deciding what the AI should do at a particular track. And the only other method I can think of - creating a separate line with different braking and acceleration hints for every single car on every single variation of every single track - isn't an option either given how much extra data that would be, how much of a pain it would make it to update the game, and how much work it would be. So, again, there are better ways to handle the AI, but you really begin to see where PD is coming from with such slow opponents. They and other racing game devs really are between a rock and a hard place when it comes to this stuff.
Maybe a good solution would be a slider for the AI performance, like in Project CARS or F1. Project Cars has a lot of different race classes and the AI in those classes is sometimes good by default, but also sometimes rather bad, but you can adjust the performance to match your own.
 
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Since they've revamped the cockpit cam to include a bit of the head bobble etc, I wonder if any improvements have been made to chase cam which has always been too sterile in the GT games. I like cockpit cam for AI races but in online I use chase to better see other cars around me.
You know that you change change the chase cam in gt sport from stiff to loose an from far to near in the pause options menu?!
 
online I use chase to better see other cars around me.
I'd strongly suggest that you adapt to bumper cam if you want to avoid accidents and making enemies for accidental bumping. It's objectively the best way to have awareness of your surroundings (rear mirror, shadows on the sides of the screen red warning symbols as proximity warnings). If you run chase cam, there's a risk of bumping the car in front of you, and you don't got the rear mirror - even if you check back during straights, you don't do it in the braking zone and in corners.
 
I've accepted at this point that PD just aren't giving us better AI no matter how much people keep bringing it up or harassing the Social media channels (the latter of which is not even remotely constructive or any more effective). Just seems like at this point it solely exists just to meet the bare minimum. As much as I want to say "Name one developer that has ever advertised their game with the Hardest AI difficulty setting in a trailer" (which to be fair, I don't remember seeing one myself even in anything recent), its a miracle to expect ANY real big changes.
In gt sport credits there is if I remember correctly 1 or 2 person working on ai and around 20 on scapes so… ;)
 

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