Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[Dave A]

I just googled and read a short explanation of LSD. Everything you said suddenly made sense.
My experience from GT Sport is that this isn't simulated at all. The front axle/differential feels entirely rigid/simplified.
But surely, even with LSD, if you keep pushing, it eventually will understeer? It just comes later than with a standard differential?
Do FWD race cars IRL have lift off oversteer? There's none of that either in GT Sport... You're saying they feel like a 911 95- or R8 Grp. 3 in GT Sport? Doesn't sound like something that should be released to the public.

Sure they can still understeer eventually, but it isn't anything like it's simulated in GT Sport. And yes FWD race cars can lift off oversteer, and I can vouch for that from experience driving a racing Golf around Oulten Park, that was a beast of a car. I don't recall having to back off once due to understeer while driving that either.

That wasn't competetive driving mind, it was a friends racing car taken to a track day, but the physics are the same it's just about how hard you push. I'm sure it will understeer eventually, but if that were me driving it in GT Sport it would've been understeering wide on almost every corner being driven like it was.

The problem with GT Sport and the FWD cars is you have to completely change your approach to how you will tackle a track and it's corners based on fundamentally incorrect car behaviour compared to how you might appraoch those same corners in real life.

 

[HugoTwoWheels]

I think you've made me want to try ACC. Too bad there's no easy and simple way to race high end lobbies every 30 minutes...

 

[Magog]

Sure they can still understeer eventually, but it isn't anything like it's simulated in GT Sport. And yes FWD race cars can lift off oversteer, and I can vouch for that from experience driving a racing Golf around Oulten Park, that was a beast of a car. I don't recall having to back off once due to understeer while driving that either.

That wasn't competetive driving mind, it was a friends racing car taken to a track day, but the physics are the same it's just about how hard you push. I'm sure it will understeer eventually, but if that were me driving it in GT Sport it would've been understeering wide on almost every corner being driven like it was.

The problem with GT Sport and the FWD cars is you have to completely change your approach to how you will tackle a track and it's corners based on fundamentally incorrect car behaviour compared to how you might appraoch those same corners in real life.

You weren't pushing your friends car to a its limits like you would in game. If you're using your tire's grip to accelerate or decelerate you're sacrificing it's ability to turn. That's why f1 cars aren't front wheel drive...

 

[HugoTwoWheels]

You weren't pushing your friends car to a its limits like you would in game. If you're using your tire's grip to accelerate or decelerate you're sacrificing it's ability to turn. That's why f1 cars aren't front wheel drive...

And why motorcycles would be instant death.

When I think about it, cars in GT Sport drive like motorcycles IRL. Maybe that's why I like the physics and find it "natural".

 

[Magog]

And why motorcycles would be instant death.

When I think about it, cars in GT Sport drive like motorcycles IRL. Maybe that's why I like the physics and find it "natural".

That's why Tourist Trophy didn't really take off. You have to baby the motorcycles around the corner in a way most people find hard to master and enjoy.

 

[Samus]

You weren't pushing your friends car to a its limits like you would in game. If you're using your tire's grip to accelerate or decelerate you're sacrificing it's ability to turn. That's why f1 cars aren't front wheel drive...

You should watch touring car races from the last 50 years. 90% of them are FWD and don't understeer like pigs. Nowadays they alongside RWD cars and still win.

Yes, obviously RWD is almost always better but that doesn't mean FWD is terrible like it's portrayed in GTS.

 

[Dave A]

You weren't pushing your friends car to a its limits like you would in game. If you're using your tire's grip to accelerate or decelerate you're sacrificing it's ability to turn. That's why f1 cars aren't front wheel drive...

I was pushing it enough, hence the reason I stated "if that were me driving it in GT Sport it would've been understeering wide on almost every corner being driven like it was." Not sure how you seem to know how hard I was or wasn't pushing a car I was driving at an event you were not present at.

Just because it was a friends car and a track day, don't think I wasn't pushing it according to my ability. I wasn't timing, and I had to change my lines around traffic (overtaking and being overtaken), but it wasn't a Sunday drive. The tyres were changed several times on the day.

Regardles, I'm unsure what that has to do with the gross exaggeration of understeer in GT Sport and the complete lack of LSD nor does F1 not being FWD have anything to do with any of what I've said. There are clearly limits to how far you can take an FWD car, but they are far more capable (modern performance FWD cars in particular) than they are in GT Sport.

If you want to dissagree please do so with something tangiable that is relative to the topic rather than "F1 cars" or second guessing how I was driving dispite neither of those comments impacting the point in any way.

 

[HugoTwoWheels]

That's why Tourist Trophy didn't really take off. You have to baby the motorcycles around the corner in a way most people find hard to master and enjoy.

Oh... Interesting!

IRL I'm always pretending I'm riding on ice. Sloppy downshifts or throttle jerking mid-corner can be lethal. Even going from brake to throttle mid-corner often requires a slight dab of clutch to make it smooth. Big 1 or 2 cylinder bikes are even worse than 4 cylinder bikes.
What never would be simulated is manipulation of point of gravity, by shifting your body/head around and weighting left or right foot. That adds complexity - and fun.

I see why most people would quit playing a realistic game quite quickly. Not fun crashing in 90% of corners.

 

[Imari]

You weren't pushing your friends car to a its limits like you would in game. If you're using your tire's grip to accelerate or decelerate you're sacrificing it's ability to turn. That's why f1 cars aren't front wheel drive...

No one is arguing that rear wheel drive isn't faster. But front wheel drive doesn't have to primarily understeer, that's just a factor of the balance of grip between the front and rear axles. It's about setup, and it's the difference between a good hot hatch and a random grandma mobile.

Watch Clarkson drive and talk about what made the old Civic Type R so good to drive. There's a fair bit of oversteer as he turns into corners.



What's more, nowadays manufacturers can do clever things with diffs to make the cars even more drivable at the limit. I don't understand how, but it seems to work. A well set up FWD sports car is very pleasant to drive, fast and won't understeer significantly more than any other car. If anything, MR cars tend to be the ones set up to naturally understeer most simply because it's much harder to catch them if the back steps out unexpectedly. FWD if you get oversteer you just plant your foot and point where you want to go.

You really need to get yourself into a decent hot hatch and drive it in anger for a bit. If you think that all wrong wheel drive cars are understeering pigs in real life you'll find yourself sorely mistaken.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

On this video, the driver describes it as "The feel of the car in game versus real life is shockingly accurate."
(Slight language warning)


This reviewer of the DD Pro finds the way to drive FWD class of cars represented well in GT Sport.

 

[Samus]

Well if Will L and some other dude on Youtube says it's accurate then who are we to argue. They both put forward clear, detailed and compelling arguments. Lock the topic.

 

[karelpipa]

All i want is them to get rid of inherent super-understeering on default suspension setups which plagued many cars in GT5/GT6 (Imprezas/Skylines etc..) (i skipped GTS). And more bouncy suspension than what i have seen from GTS videos. Seems springs/dampers are too hard.

 

[Scaff]

On this video, the driver describes it as "The feel of the car in game versus real life is shockingly accurate."
(Slight language warning)


This reviewer of the DD Pro finds the way to drive FWD class of cars represented well in GT Sport.

Can you let me know how I can get Hyundai to nerf my I30n then?

As my real one drives totally different to any FWD car in GTS and that means it's clearly broken!

 

[rideontwo]

That's why Tourist Trophy didn't really take off. You have to baby the motorcycles around the corner in a way most people find hard to master and enjoy.

And that is a real shame. I love Tourist Trophy and play it a few times every year. Would love to see another iteration of this title from PD.

 

[ThePotatoKing]

They should, provided they drive the same as real life. Meaning following speed limits, not going beyond their limit/fear, etc.

If someone has never played a racing game before, they're gonna fly off the road no matter what game they play if they try to go fullspeed the first time. No matter if it's NFS, GT or AC. It's a big difference being in a 3D world with g-forces and sense of fear vs 2D with no other cues except the wheel in your hand. We've seen many examples of even pro racing drivers finding it hard to acclimatise to a sim (assuming they don't often use simulators).



Putting lay people aside, do the test I described first and then come back and argue

Just tried out the 458 in both games and indeed, the GT Sport case is really an oversteering mess to say the least. Although i think MR GT3s in GT Sport are plagued with problems in general i see your point.

The reason i find Asseto Corsa harder personaly is that i find the cars in that game much more twichy and "light" in general and thus i struggle to catch slides compared to GT Sport, in which they feel more "neutral".

 

[ShiftingGears]

Speaking of driving physics, running without ABS is just horrendous in GT for all parties involved. There's really no justification for PD not to improve it.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

Just tried out the 458 in both games and indeed, the GT Sport case is really an oversteering mess to say the least. Although i think MR GT3s in GT Sport are plagued with problems in general i see your point.

The reason i find Asseto Corsa harder personaly is that i find the cars in that game much more twichy and "light" in general and thus i struggle to catch slides compared to GT Sport, in which they feel more "neutral".

Great, thanks for trying it out and giving your impressions Now you know, no sane racing team will send a driver in the 458 if it handles like the one in GT Sport

The cars might feel more twitchy because the suspension is not overdamped like in GTS, so you have to be more careful with weight transfer. As with everything, it takes a bit of getting used to. But once you do everything makes sense and more importantly, closer to what it is in reality. And using the Ferrari example, because it's not a deathtrap like in GTS you will find that you don't need to countersteer as much in the first place!

The FFB in GT also tends to be exaggerated when it comes to the countersteer effect. The FFB in AC is more pure and closer to what you feel in real life. Unfortunately, in real life you feel the rear sliding more with your butt gyro than from the wheel (which only provides info from the front wheels). This is why most people struggle to catch slides initially with AC. But again, once you get used to it and figure out what the physics is trying to tell you, you'll be able to catch slides and pull long drifts no problem (obviously don't pick a modern GT3 car with slicks for this, it's not setup for it).

Keep driving AC for a month or so, then come back to GTS. I'll be interested to hear your impressions then

 

[HugoTwoWheels]

Unfortunately, in real life you feel the rear sliding more with your butt gyro than from the wheel (which only provides info from the front wheels).

I think I prefer the compensated FFB in this instance, since I lack butt FFB.

The same reasoning applies for the overly loud (can be lowered) tyre noises. I need them to compensate for lack of butt FFB, and I actually increase them to 150%.

So yeah, it isn't "realistic", but it helps me understand what's happening better and perform better.

 

[adnancunha]

It´s a shame... but i don´t dirft yet! 😔

But, GT series physics it´s friendly to all users, you can enjoy with both DS4/5 or G29.

but still, i can´t drift, i am bad at g29.

 

[Scaff]

I think I prefer the compensated FFB in this instance, since I lack butt FFB.

The same reasoning applies for the overly loud (can be lowered) tyre noises. I need them to compensate for lack of butt FFB, and I actually increase them to 150%.

So yeah, it isn't "realistic", but it helps me understand what's happening better and perform better.

Then PD should be up front about it and provided an option to switch it off!

I run a tactile system and as such do get butt FFB, but even without it would far prefer it to be optional and explained.

 

[Rzeractor]

That's why Tourist Trophy didn't really take off. You have to baby the motorcycles around the corner in a way most people find hard to master and enjoy.

I assumed tourist trophy didn't really take off because of GT4's physics - definitely flawed when you compare it to even gt5. Try doing a donut in both games, for example.

 

[JDMKING13]

Just tried out the 458 in both games and indeed, the GT Sport case is really an oversteering mess to say the least. Although i think MR GT3s in GT Sport are plagued with problems in general i see your point.

The reason i find Asseto Corsa harder personaly is that i find the cars in that game much more twichy and "light" in general and thus i struggle to catch slides compared to GT Sport, in which they feel more "neutral".

What tires were you using in both games? I have pretty much all major race games for PlayStation, and when it comes to just pure driving I feel AC is the best. I think it has most to do with the feedback you get in AC. It’s amazing and should be experience by everyone. That said GTS is still my favorite game overall and the physics are way better than GT6 in my opinion. Still has a lot of work in my opinion but they are going in the right direction. GTS just feels the most natural to me out of all the games. It’s always cool to drive the same car in different games. Take the 458, I actually prefer the GTS version over AC version. The GTS version just feels more raw once you take off all the aids compared to the AC version.

 

[05XR8]

When players feel GTS is “natural”, are they really meaning easier? Easier in a sim does not mean accurate.

I can play Mario Kart and say the cars feel more natural. The kart slides around as a real kart slides around. Therefore I can say it feels natural.

People have played Gran Turismo for so long, the next Gran Turismo they play, there is more improvement. They know the way the physics are and therefore can adapt to the game. When they try another game, they may feel that game doesn’t drive like GT. Therefore, something is not right to them. The cars don’t behave like Gran Turismo, therefore, GT feels more natural, to them.

Its like when some people try a game that have more adjustment, they give up. Say they can’t be bothered adjusting settings. Thus, they say GT is better or the other game is worse, because they are having difficulty adjusting to a different game(All the while, the game that may require more adjustment to settings will probably feel closer to real driving, when a vehicle is set up properly).
That’s not a valid reason to say GT is more natural.

These are racing games. When racing, there usually isn’t one set up that works at every track. Track surface, wind, ambient temperature, time of day, clean or dirty track, rubber or oil, wet or dry. All these factors come into play.
Tyre compound, tyre construction, tread, Tyre pressure, tyre age/wear, aerodynamics, suspension settings, gearing, vehicle weight, etc., are factors in determining car behaviour at every track.
Since GT don’t replicate many of these factors and adjustments as accurately as some games that do, how does Gran Turismo feel more ”natural”?

 

[Magog]

When players feel GTS is “natural”, are they really meaning easier? Easier in a sim does not mean accurate.

I can play Mario Kart and say the cars feel more natural. The kart slides around as a real kart slides around. Therefore I can say it feels natural.

People have played Gran Turismo for so long, the next Gran Turismo they play, there is more improvement. They know the way the physics are and therefore can adapt to the game. When they try another game, they may feel that game doesn’t drive like GT. Therefore, something is not right to them. The cars don’t behave like Gran Turismo, therefore, GT feels more natural, to them.

Its like when some people try a game that have more adjustment, they give up. Say they can’t be bothered adjusting settings. Thus, they say GT is better or the other game is worse, because they are having difficulty adjusting to a different game(All the while, the game that may require more adjustment to settings will probably feel closer to real driving, when a vehicle is set up properly).
That’s not a valid reason to say GT is more natural.

These are racing games. When racing, there usually isn’t one set up that works at every track. Track surface, wind, ambient temperature, time of day, clean or dirty track, rubber or oil, wet or dry. All these factors come into play.
Tyre compound, tyre construction, tread, Tyre pressure, tyre age/wear, aerodynamics, suspension settings, gearing, vehicle weight, etc., are factors in determining car behaviour at every track.
Since GT don’t replicate many of these factors and adjustments as accurately as some games that do, how does Gran Turismo feel more ”natural”?

No. I played ACC and it felt easier. By more natural I mean the cars feel like they have weight and are subject to inertia which is a fundamental property of the universe.

 

[05XR8]

No. I played ACC and it felt easier. By more natural I mean the cars feel like they have weight and are subject to inertia which is a fundamental property of the universe.

…And I feel that inertia is something PD need to program better. In terms of their tyre model. I mentioned my view about it in this thread https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...rent-carried-over-from-gt-sport.398543/page-2

I've been playing GTS, AC, ACC, PC2 and PC3 back to back(Forza 7 is on a different tv). Same cars and tracks.

PD need to add connectivity to the road. The sensation I feel, is that the cars in GT are on 205 width tyres, while all the other cars are on proper width tyres. The car physics(dive, squat, suspension/roll) are fine. This goes beyond controller/wheel settings. There's a disconnect, in the details, with the road to tyre. Also, with the sensation of engine braking or lack of it. Maybe step up the wind resistance?
Anyway, I tested a race car, but PD have modelled a different feeling to high sidewall tyres on classic cars compared to low profile tyres on modern cars.

I'm not comparing this game does this better or ranking these games(if anything, I didn't believe it until I did them back to back, GTS and ACC are pretty damn close in terms of ease of play on controller). No negativity about that here. This is about the movement of the car. What we "feel" when driving it around. I'm not feeling the weight of the car or what it's doing underneath me, until it's probably too late. So to speak.






I honestly, now, don't think the GT physics will change. It's too easy for everyone. As in, the casual(majority) players really don't need to feel much more than the car turns when you steer it and the car brakes when you pull the trigger. It has to be. Especially, for players that never driven a car. I wonder how GT-GT4 would feel, using the DS4.
If PD want to go ahead and add more feeling with car behavior, I'm all for it. Is that what "Simulation Mode" could be about? More feeling? I don't know. However... Yeah, I'm convinced PD won't go any further than what is programmed in GT Sport.

Now, I do understand wheel users have more feeling than us DS4 users(I’ve only used a wheel in GT4 and for qualifying at the GT Academy Time Trial at Melbourne and Sydney Motorsport Park https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/gran-turismo-sport-general-discussion.337545/page-733). However, I feel that inertia, due to contact with the road and simulated engine braking, need much more improvement, to get cars in GT to feel more “natural“.

 

[Lord Protector]

When players feel GTS is “natural”, are they really meaning easier? Easier in a sim does not mean accurate.

I can play Mario Kart and say the cars feel more natural. The kart slides around as a real kart slides around. Therefore I can say it feels natural.

People have played Gran Turismo for so long, the next Gran Turismo they play, there is more improvement. They know the way the physics are and therefore can adapt to the game. When they try another game, they may feel that game doesn’t drive like GT. Therefore, something is not right to them. The cars don’t behave like Gran Turismo, therefore, GT feels more natural, to them.

Its like when some people try a game that have more adjustment, they give up. Say they can’t be bothered adjusting settings. Thus, they say GT is better or the other game is worse, because they are having difficulty adjusting to a different game(All the while, the game that may require more adjustment to settings will probably feel closer to real driving, when a vehicle is set up properly).
That’s not a valid reason to say GT is more natural.

These are racing games. When racing, there usually isn’t one set up that works at every track. Track surface, wind, ambient temperature, time of day, clean or dirty track, rubber or oil, wet or dry. All these factors come into play.
Tyre compound, tyre construction, tread, Tyre pressure, tyre age/wear, aerodynamics, suspension settings, gearing, vehicle weight, etc., are factors in determining car behaviour at every track.
Since GT don’t replicate many of these factors and adjustments as accurately as some games that do, how does Gran Turismo feel more ”natural”?

When people say it feels unnatural, they usually mean unreal, not unlike Mario Kart… it’s not that hard to understand.

 

[05XR8]

When people say it feels unnatural, they usually mean unreal, not unlike Mario Kart… it’s not that hard to understand.

You’ve assumed this. Just because you understand what other people are thinking, doesn’t mean that’s what it is. Some might not feel it’s more real. Some might think real means control. That‘s why I’m asking the question, what those that say “natural“, what do THEY mean. What is their understanding?

 

[JDMKING13]

You’ve assumed this. Just because you understand what other people are thinking, doesn’t mean that’s what it is. Some might not feel it’s more real. Some might think real means control. That‘s why I’m asking the question, what those that say “natural“, what do THEY mean. What is their understanding?

So you play GTS with a wheel?

 

[05XR8]

So you play GTS with a wheel?

I asked about the build of the game. Was told it's a build just for this event.

After my qualifying(1:17.3 around Tokyo), the PlayStation rep asked how I liked it.
Keep in mind this was with ALL assists off.
THE SENSE OF SPEED, TO ME, IS NOT THERE.
Purely my opinion.

The sound through headphones on Max volume, was all gear whine.

Lots of tyre chatter when on the limit. I feel that's a good sound other than the high pitch skid sound we've had for 20 years.

Can't say much of the graphics, as the screen had a fair amount of glare.

When I did my initial qualifier with AI, it wasn't easy to pass. They kept speed. Repassed me when I missed apexes or braked early.
I wasn't getting much of a slipstream which is good. Also, I didn't feel much contact with the road.(just my opinion). There is grip but, I didn't feel planted.
As a side note: there is a bump on a right hander while driving under the road above. It's subtle but, Its a small detail that I thought would throw the car off. It gives the car a little skip and the car stays on trajectory for the turn.

Bumping into cars and walls was so so. If there is damage, will be interesting how PD do that.

Hard acceleration. I can confirm others experiences with the rear stepping out.
Hard braking. The rear bias is a bit much. Adjusting on the fly would be cool to do.

I'm not totally convinced. The Gr.N cars might be the better litmus test. Without much aero, maybe the handling will be better.
I think that sums up my experience.

…And I feel that inertia is something PD need to program better. In terms of their tyre model. I mentioned my view about it in this thread https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...rent-carried-over-from-gt-sport.398543/page-2

Now, I do understand wheel users have more feeling than us DS4 users(I’ve only used a wheel in GT4 and for qualifying at the GT Academy Time Trial at Melbourne and Sydney Motorsport Park) https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/gran-turismo-sport-general-discussion.337545/page-733). However, I feel that inertia, due to contact with the road and simulated engine braking, need much more improvement, to get cars in GT to feel more “natural“.

 

[zzz_pt]

Over twenty years in the Motor Industry, most of it in the area of training. I've taught vehicle dynamics and driver skills.

During that time I've logged hundreds of hours of track and proving ground time in both race and road cars.

GTS (and the wider series) gets a lot wrong, PD have created an accessible title, but not one without some significant issues in terms of accuracy.

The areas of issue that have been touched on are FFB at the point of understeer, which should be a loss of steering force (caused by a reduction of self aligning torque). GT instead represents this with a wierd rattle/shake effect. No amount of FFB tweaks change what is an utterly inaccurate effect.

We then have FWD cars themselves, which do not understeer accurately, the effect is far to hard to recover from and when it comes to hot hatches with aggressive LSDs is utterly and completely wrong. I daily drive an I30n (and have driven all manner of Focus ST, RS Megan's, GTi, Etc), GTS utterly fails to accurately reflect how aggressive FWD LSDs work.

That's without the utter mess around FWD race cars, which 100% are not unsteering messes that GTS presents them as (quite the opposite).

Add on top of that the implementation of a non linear throttle and FWD cars get even less desirable to drive (to me at least).

It boggles the mind that after so many years and criticism PD still haven’t fixed this issue. It makes it so every car is less realistic to drive and control on the limit, given how the throttle input works. Just outright wrong.